Posted by Philip Kirkham on September 6, 2006 at 5:21 PM
Recent posts about John C’s Gannet image have prompted me to write this about critique.
I, like many others here, visit several other photographic sites, but of them all, I feel that UKNP contributors give the most unbiased, helpful and friendly information of them all. I realise that sometimes it looks as though we just “pat one another on the back”, but I think that tells more about the quality of some of the images than of paying compliments just for the sake of it. On the other hand, sometimes we seem a little pernickety, but surely, that is why most of us post images – to see what sometimes we don’t see in our images and to find other ways of fine tuning the finished photograph.
I can honestly say that I am forever grateful to ALL those who take the time and trouble to post comments here, and that I have learnt more from this site than any books or magazines I have ever purchased.
Best wishes to all contributors
Phil
Posted by John Chapman on September 6, 2006 at 5:41 PM
Hi Philip
I agree with you. I have learnt so much since I joined the Forum and the information I receive makes me more determined to get my images as near perfect as possible.
John
Aberdeen
Posted by Tim Munsey on September 7, 2006 at 3:31 AM
It's great to have other's view points on your work, as ones own view will be biased by many factors.
Truth is critique aint easy, especially if you are prone to take the piss so restraint and constructiveness must be remembered (sadly) I guess.
As Phil says you learn a lot from the contributors here, so cheers all.
Tim
Posted by Dave Courtenay on September 7, 2006 at 4:35 AM
Totally agree,I also go on other forums and get the best/useful critique good or bad on this one,I feel that over the last couple of months the quality of images has dropped abit and that the forum is abit quieter than normal but thats probably just the summer holidays and the extremely hot weather we have had-keep it up guys
Posted by Alan Woolnough on September 7, 2006 at 5:00 AM
I agree entirely Phil,
Nothing like sharing time with like minded people, and i consider my time on this forum similar to having a chin-wag with my mates at the local pub .
Although the majority of us have never met, i guess we all know each other {to a certain extent}, and feel comfortable that everyone will take their critiques in the spirit they are given.
I think nature photography is one of those few areas in life, where a total newcomer to the medium can give a critique that is every bit as valuable as one from an 'old hand'. Ive certainly developed my photography 'leaps and bounds' thanks to this forum {although it may not show}, as ive always had a tendency to take the 'tunnel vision' approach, and plod along doing my own thing quite happily. Its always valuable to get a fresh look, or a kick up the arse now and again, and this forum seems partiulary good at supplying me with this, in a civil/helpfull/friendly way {unlike some other notable sites, where ego's seem to reign}
Although we can only comment on the image and info provided, i think we often try to 'look beyond' that {on this forum}, as we feel comfortable that our forum mates will realise that it is only a personal view/feeling/educated guess {at the very most}, and not to be taken as a comment from an egotistic 'know-it-all'. I also feel there is always a place for a simple 'great,smashing, super', if a previous comment has summed up my views. Certainly costs nothing, and lifes too short.
I have no qualms about saying if i like an image, and have always 'personally' given more merit to a shot where the photographer has had to work for it, irrespective of whether the final result is a corker or record shot {from the general consensus}.
There is no dought that this forum is evolving since its first day, as digital is in full swing now. In this relatively short time i have had to re-evaluate/re-learn much of my photography, as it is a different ball game now. The world of camera/lens automation, and PS wizardry has changed my life-long hobby into a different beast, and therefore my critiquing has had to follow suit {to a certain extent}. Its certainly more difficult to discern how much of an image is down to the photographer, or technology, but there is no doughting that the final 'face value' of many images on this forum are absolutely wonderful to look at.
I'm beginning to embrace and enjoy this new malarky very much, thanks to the valuable help and advice from my chums on this forum, although i like to keep a leg in the past, as i do feel more connected to that era {so 'cut me some slack' if my critiques seem a bit odd/old fashioned }.
For all good things, there is sometimes a negative also though. Maybe this just applies to me, but having recently spent many hours sorting through all my shots from over the last 25/30yrs, i do feel that my more recent shots have become very similar {almost un-wild} due to me being 'unwittingly' dragged into the present trend of clinical neatness within the frame. I haven't quite made up my mind whether i am fully comfortable with the direction i seem to be travelling, or whether i prefer the 'warts and all' route . I'm beginning to wonder if i am becoming too succeptable to common trends {through internet forums}, or whether i just need another kick up the backside
oops, i started rambling again {somebody shoot me }
Alan
Posted by Tim Munsey on September 7, 2006 at 5:24 AM
Hi Alan,
I agree with your last comment with regards to clinical neatness, we have to be careful as we will all end up producing identical photos. I think Elliot's panorama is fantistically refreshing, we need to keep exploring.
Tim
Posted by David J Slater on September 7, 2006 at 1:44 PM
Well said Alan. The truth is that digital is too easy with no worries over exposure or composition that used to be the case with film. Just adjust the levels etc and there it is....
We shouldn't continue to kid ourselves, the illusion of digital IS that photos tend to look the same depending upon the current trend / fashion among the wildlife photographer brotherhood. Sharpening is often a substitiute for poor technique, colour balance and curves a substiture for poor light, and so on. We can manipulate to whatever end result we like provided we have the computer and money to do so.
Digitisation of 2-D images into 3-D, a bit of rotation here and there, and wow, a totally new image....how do you think the BBC did those dinosaur programmes?
Have a look at the realistic dinosaur photos on this site:
www.warrenphotographic.co.uk/prevhtm/index2.htm
This is the future of digital photography...
Dave
Forest of Dean, UK
Posted by Alan Woolnough on September 7, 2006 at 6:07 PM
Hello David,
Not sure if i would put it as strong as that
There is no dought that things are snowballing very quickly, and i wonder how different things will be in even five years from now
Having only just dipped my toe into full automation, with my sigma lens {and the ability to use all the wizardry that my D70 allows}, I don't feel that i have made life easier for myself, but rather that i can now push myself into greater challenges.
Admittedly it was a strange feeling using all the 'bells & whistles' during my recent first attempt at flight photography {something that i never mastered in the film/manual era}, as i felt i had less input into the final result, but i suspect that as i attempt new challenges, in more challenging situations {with more challenging subjects than harbour gulls}, i'm sure my percentage of personal input into the resulting images will increase accordingly.
Its true that the digital world offers more scope for manipulation than before, but i dont hold 'photoshop' personally responsible if people decide to use it to cut corners or abuse it, at the expense of technique in the field. I do think PS its a wonderful thing though to hone a well crafted digital image to its maximum potential, and i think the majority of serious photographers {hobbiest and pro's} always aim to get it right 'in the field', and hone the image in PS from that standpoint.
I'm actually looking forward to the evolution of nature photography, although the costs involved means that i will probably always be one generation behind.
Although i have only spent about 10% of my 25/30yrs photographic life with digital, and probably only .001% with full automation, i think its great to now have the ability to tackle subjects/situations that i could only dream about previously and still have the option to shoot/expose fully manually if i want to.
Far from being downhearted about this 'new world' of digital nature photography, i am enjoying the ride, and hold many of todays digital photographers in the same high esteem as many from the last era. Providing the photographer is pushing himself/herself to the best of their ability, and the limits of their gear {digital wizardry, or film}, i consider they are working hard for their results, and deserve full credit for that.
I do take your points though, as it is certainly easier now to 'hide' sloppy work, but it doesn't mean we have to take that route, and i strongly suspect that most people would not be comfortable with that approach, and end up doing what most people have done over many years:- get back out there, and get it right 'in the field' {i hope so}. Even with todays technology, i don't think most of us mere mortals can make a 'silk purse out of a sow's ear',
and i do think the old values of having a well exposed/focused original as a starting point, is standing the test of time very nicely {so far}.
Alan
Posted by SteveHL on September 8, 2006 at 11:02 AM
I would like to express my heart felt thanks to all who comment on my images. You all set a high standard and attempting to reach those standards has helped improve my photography no end.
Thankyou to all those who have shared their knowledge and been patient in providing information and pointing me in the right direction.
Once again Thankyou.
Best Regards
SteveHL
Discussion
8 repliesI, like many others here, visit several other photographic sites, but of them all, I feel that UKNP contributors give the most unbiased, helpful and friendly information of them all. I realise that sometimes it looks as though we just “pat one another on the back”, but I think that tells more about the quality of some of the images than of paying compliments just for the sake of it. On the other hand, sometimes we seem a little pernickety, but surely, that is why most of us post images – to see what sometimes we don’t see in our images and to find other ways of fine tuning the finished photograph.
I can honestly say that I am forever grateful to ALL those who take the time and trouble to post comments here, and that I have learnt more from this site than any books or magazines I have ever purchased.
Best wishes to all contributors
Phil
I agree with you. I have learnt so much since I joined the Forum and the information I receive makes me more determined to get my images as near perfect as possible.
John
Aberdeen
Truth is critique aint easy, especially if you are prone to take the piss so restraint and constructiveness must be remembered (sadly) I guess.
As Phil says you learn a lot from the contributors here, so cheers all.
Tim
Nothing like sharing time with like minded people, and i consider my time on this forum similar to having a chin-wag with my mates at the local pub
Although the majority of us have never met, i guess we all know each other {to a certain extent}, and feel comfortable that everyone will take their critiques in the spirit they are given.
I think nature photography is one of those few areas in life, where a total newcomer to the medium can give a critique that is every bit as valuable as one from an 'old hand'. Ive certainly developed my photography 'leaps and bounds' thanks to this forum {although it may not show}, as ive always had a tendency to take the 'tunnel vision' approach, and plod along doing my own thing quite happily. Its always valuable to get a fresh look, or a kick up the arse now and again, and this forum seems partiulary good at supplying me with this, in a civil/helpfull/friendly way {unlike some other notable sites, where ego's seem to reign}
Although we can only comment on the image and info provided, i think we often try to 'look beyond' that {on this forum}, as we feel comfortable that our forum mates will realise that it is only a personal view/feeling/educated guess {at the very most}, and not to be taken as a comment from an egotistic 'know-it-all'. I also feel there is always a place for a simple 'great,smashing, super', if a previous comment has summed up my views. Certainly costs nothing, and lifes too short.
I have no qualms about saying if i like an image, and have always 'personally' given more merit to a shot where the photographer has had to work for it, irrespective of whether the final result is a corker or record shot {from the general consensus}.
There is no dought that this forum is evolving since its first day, as digital is in full swing now. In this relatively short time i have had to re-evaluate/re-learn much of my photography, as it is a different ball game now. The world of camera/lens automation, and PS wizardry has changed my life-long hobby into a different beast, and therefore my critiquing has had to follow suit {to a certain extent}. Its certainly more difficult to discern how much of an image is down to the photographer, or technology, but there is no doughting that the final 'face value' of many images on this forum are absolutely wonderful to look at.
I'm beginning to embrace and enjoy this new malarky very much, thanks to the valuable help and advice from my chums on this forum, although i like to keep a leg in the past, as i do feel more connected to that era {so 'cut me some slack' if my critiques seem a bit odd/old fashioned
For all good things, there is sometimes a negative also though. Maybe this just applies to me, but having recently spent many hours sorting through all my shots from over the last 25/30yrs, i do feel that my more recent shots have become very similar {almost un-wild} due to me being 'unwittingly' dragged into the present trend of clinical neatness within the frame. I haven't quite made up my mind whether i am fully comfortable with the direction i seem to be travelling, or whether i prefer the 'warts and all' route
oops, i started rambling again {somebody shoot me
Alan
I agree with your last comment with regards to clinical neatness, we have to be careful as we will all end up producing identical photos. I think Elliot's panorama is fantistically refreshing, we need to keep exploring.
Tim
We shouldn't continue to kid ourselves, the illusion of digital IS that photos tend to look the same depending upon the current trend / fashion among the wildlife photographer brotherhood. Sharpening is often a substitiute for poor technique, colour balance and curves a substiture for poor light, and so on. We can manipulate to whatever end result we like provided we have the computer and money to do so.
Digitisation of 2-D images into 3-D, a bit of rotation here and there, and wow, a totally new image....how do you think the BBC did those dinosaur programmes?
Have a look at the realistic dinosaur photos on this site:
www.warrenphotographic.co.uk/prevhtm/index2.htm
This is the future of digital photography...
Dave
Forest of Dean, UK
Not sure if i would put it as strong as that
There is no dought that things are snowballing very quickly, and i wonder how different things will be in even five years from now
Having only just dipped my toe into full automation, with my sigma lens {and the ability to use all the wizardry that my D70 allows}, I don't feel that i have made life easier for myself, but rather that i can now push myself into greater challenges.
Admittedly it was a strange feeling using all the 'bells & whistles' during my recent first attempt at flight photography {something that i never mastered in the film/manual era}, as i felt i had less input into the final result, but i suspect that as i attempt new challenges, in more challenging situations {with more challenging subjects than harbour gulls}, i'm sure my percentage of personal input into the resulting images will increase accordingly.
Its true that the digital world offers more scope for manipulation than before, but i dont hold 'photoshop' personally responsible if people decide to use it to cut corners or abuse it, at the expense of technique in the field. I do think PS its a wonderful thing though to hone a well crafted digital image to its maximum potential, and i think the majority of serious photographers {hobbiest and pro's} always aim to get it right 'in the field', and hone the image in PS from that standpoint.
I'm actually looking forward to the evolution of nature photography, although the costs involved means that i will probably always be one generation behind.
Although i have only spent about 10% of my 25/30yrs photographic life with digital, and probably only .001% with full automation, i think its great to now have the ability to tackle subjects/situations that i could only dream about previously and still have the option to shoot/expose fully manually if i want to.
Far from being downhearted about this 'new world' of digital nature photography, i am enjoying the ride, and hold many of todays digital photographers in the same high esteem as many from the last era. Providing the photographer is pushing himself/herself to the best of their ability, and the limits of their gear {digital wizardry, or film}, i consider they are working hard for their results, and deserve full credit for that.
I do take your points though, as it is certainly easier now to 'hide' sloppy work, but it doesn't mean we have to take that route, and i strongly suspect that most people would not be comfortable with that approach, and end up doing what most people have done over many years:- get back out there, and get it right 'in the field' {i hope so}. Even with todays technology, i don't think most of us mere mortals can make a 'silk purse out of a sow's ear',
and i do think the old values of having a well exposed/focused original as a starting point, is standing the test of time very nicely {so far
Alan
Thankyou to all those who have shared their knowledge and been patient in providing information and pointing me in the right direction.
Once again Thankyou.
Best Regards
SteveHL