Posted by David Clapp on September 7, 2006 at 11:53 AM
Not being a highly active poster in the Man and Nature forum or indeed on Naturephotographers.net due to my photography being more travel related, I just want to say I am dissapointed in the drop off in comments and critiques considering the amount of view some of the pictures get.
A post in the ES&S forum is so well received with help, advice and good feeling.
Lots of excellent stuff gets completely uncredited in M&N, despite the flowing traffic viewing and undoubtedly appreciating the posts. It is naturally going to have more landscapes with human elements than anything else. I am sure the silent traffic is coming from ESandS more than any other forum.
If you are an ES&S junkie like many of us, think of all the great sea battered lighthouses, mystical castles, mist shrouded bridges, dawn windmills, winding stone walls etc your missing!
Dave
Posted by Bill Chambers on September 7, 2006 at 1:18 PM
That's an odd phenomenon. I seldom venture out of ESS and a couple of talk forums just due to time constraints. When I do get around to peaking into other forums I must admit I don't leave many remarks however. That's certainly not an indication of not liking what I see; more likely just an indication of laziness on my part. That's rather embarassing as I'm one of those who moan and groan about people not taking the time to respond sometimes in ESS. Sorry David - will try to do better.
I'm afraid I'm guilty as well. I tend to comment on the forums that I take part in, and don't always have time to view the rest. I'll take your comment to heart and try to view them all... of course when you see the headline "Wife divorced because she wouldn't get off the computer" it will be all your fault.
Posted by Alice Scoggins on September 7, 2006 at 2:30 PM
I make a habit of browsing through the photos by clicking on "all photos". That way I'm not limited to just one forum. I enjoy all the different forums and wish I had more time to comment on them all. I've definitely noticed I don't get many comments on photos I put in the forums other than ESS.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 7, 2006 at 7:12 PM
If you are an ES&S junkie like many of us, think of all the great sea battered lighthouses, mystical castles, mist shrouded bridges, dawn windmills, winding stone walls etc your missing!
David, I agree 100%! In fact, M&N is one of my favorite galleries on NPN.
That said, "landscape photography" is probably the most popular genre of nature photography. Google "landscape photography" and you'll end up with nearly 33 million hits; do the same for "bird photography" and get over 19 million hits. Try something like "lighthouse photography" (perhaps one of the most popular types of "man and nature" photography) and get 3 million hits. By this over-simplistic measure, one could draw the conclusion that landscape photography is 10 times more popular than lighthouse photography. IMO, that is what it all really boils down to - the more popular genres are going to have the most activity in terms of photo critique.
But I do agree - the folks who enjoy the E,S&S gallery really need to spend some time commenting in the M&N gallery too!
Posted by David Clapp on September 7, 2006 at 7:25 PM
Alice that is a really good idea and I think the best approach in many respect as your likes and dislikes are not filtered. The problems is though so many posts go through these pages it is often easy to miss images in your specialised subject with the All Photos forum, but your approach is a good one.
Its the Man and Nature Forum and the equivalent Elements of Humankind on Naturescapes that these problems exist. Other forums feel more focused, whereas these can often feel too general. But my point is they literally always containing more landscapes than anything else, usually with complimentary features then obstrusive ones and I am sure the traffic is from ES&S, but everyone is critiqued-out by the time they reach here I am sure so they will only comment on something utterly exceptional, rather than give positive help and advice like they would in their specialised forum. It tends to make it a bit frosty
I purposfully try to include human elements as strong focal points as a matter of choice. I would much rather have a dramatic sea castle than a landscape without. I just want to remind people that a landscape can be finished off with a ruin or a bridge so to critique and look in the Man and Nature forum regularly. There are also some unusual pictures in here. Ian Flindt's moderators pick windmill picture is a class piece of work, a beautiful image complimented by man, which I am sure would of had 30+ comments of the forum got the equivalent attention in ES&S.
Just some thoughts.....
Posted by Richard Wong on September 7, 2006 at 7:51 PM
I click on "all photos" since they added it a while back. good photos can come from any genre.
Posted by LG Price on September 7, 2006 at 9:16 PM
I also like the all photos if I have time to look and comment. When I am pressed for time, I usually visit M&N, ES&S and photo series because there are fewer photos and I can give them better justice. Making comments is always a challenge. Wish I could spend the time every day but I can't.
LG
Posted by Peter Carroll on September 8, 2006 at 12:03 AM
David - I'm with you all the way! I post in both ES&S and M&N and frankly I'm finding posting in M&N a bit frustrating. If a posting gets more than 6 comments in M&N it's a minor miracle. I often see total views at over 100 and comments at 2. I'm trying to comment more on what I see in M&N but generally it's the same people who take the time to comment. David and Kent do a fine job spreading their comments around as M&N moderators. I totally understand the comments made above about just venturing in for a look once in a while to a forum and not having the time to post comments but surely there must be enough people who regularly post to M&N to generate more than 2 comments for most pics. I also would like to see more to the comments I see in M&N. Thoughtful comments outlining likes and dislikes are time consuming but I think they benefit everyone. For me personally when I read comments I try to distance myself from my initial reaction to an image and put myself in the commentors shoes. I learn lots and enjoy gaining a perspective on what aspects work or don't work for other people. I believe posting first and foremost is about sharing. The members of NPN are wonderful in their appreciation of that fact. Not everyone here has the same skill level, experience, time allocation, equipment etc when it comes to photography. Throw in personal artistic taste and viewpoints and you know you're dealing with art and not science. I guess what I'm hoping for from the M&N image posters is maybe everytime they post to take the time to comment on 4 or 5 images. After all what goes around comes around.
Posted by dan elster on September 8, 2006 at 2:49 AM
I'm an avian and fauna addict, but you just inspired me to post an image and take a look at the Man and Nature forums.
Posted by David Clapp on September 8, 2006 at 4:04 AM
I think the reason why people are turned away is often because the rules get a little bent in this place more that any other.
The guidelines state - Landscapes, seascapes, or rural scenes that contain limited evidence of hand-of-man (HOM) such as a path, fence, crops, domesticated animals or people within an overall nature theme.
I think many people seem to ignore the 'containing limited evidence' and also the 'within an overall nature theme' part. If you so much as put a fence post in ES&S you will get many people letting you know. This disregard turns M&N into a strange place if the rules arnt followed tightly. We need to stick to the rules as this is the only way to display consistant quality shots.
Posted by Jim Jirka on September 8, 2006 at 8:50 AM
There are no posting rules, only guidelines.
Posted by David Clapp on September 8, 2006 at 11:07 AM
Ok, didnt know that.
Posted by LG Price on September 9, 2006 at 12:31 AM
I think the recent photo showing the effect tides in a harbor is a good example of how more extensive "hand of man" can work well for showing the effects of nature. Also, the ancient Inca ruins are a good example of man's works that have become one with nature.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 9, 2006 at 7:38 AM
There are no posting rules, only guidelines.
This is a good point. At what point does a photo of a landscape that includes a light house become a photo of a light house in an attractive setting? Where and how do you draw the line?
"Guidelines" (as opposed to "rules") leave enough wiggle room for interpretation so that we can enjoy the photo instead of debating whether the photo is appropriate for a certain gallery, or even for the site itself. Out of all of the NPN galleries, Man & Nature is perhaps the most generous in terms of what kind of photos are acceptable, which leads to greater diversity. I personally think that is OK, though if the majority feels otherwise a change may be in order.
Posted by Guy Tal on September 10, 2006 at 12:40 PM
There's obviously the community aspect, but I'm also a firm believer in leadership by examples. I would urge all moderators to foster more participation in their forums, more posting (both comments and images) etc. by setting an example.
Guy
Posted by David Senesac on September 10, 2006 at 2:52 PM
I haven't been a participant of these forums too long. I have to echo what Bill Chambers related. Like many people, my modern life is far too busy and complicated . So much so that much of what I get involved in gets the half baked treatment including participation on any of the many forums I visit, lurk, and post on. Even in terms of my photography business, internet forums don't add much to what I consider important. More entertainment and a convenient way to keep my writing and communication talents sharpened. Most of the summer I've been out in the field though that will change after the last colorful leafs of fall drop. So don't have much time.
One issue with all popular internet forums is that as threads are scrolled off the front page, they become out of sight, out of mind, and usually ignored regardless of their relative merits. Thus too many threads works against well critiqued inputs. The other is many active participants in any forums tend to post more on those threads with others they have developed forum relationships with. Thus members that have cultivated a thoughtful and responsive relationship with other members will always get far more responses from others than someone else that is less active regardless of the merits of what is posted. Personally I enjoy looking and analyzing photography whether my own or that of others. Something I have done for many years as a way to grow and evolve in this artform. I would rather photographers here commented more in depth and at length and backslapped with vague encouragements less but understand human nature enough to know that won't change here or on other forums. Obviously many here are simply happy to receive several backslapping one-liners from those that respond so. As though it is some kind of level playing field voting system. And might even consider that really means something. At times in the past those responders have possibly more explicitly expressed why they like a person's style so need not repeat such each time.
Because you've mentioned Man & Nature and I've never spent any time there, I'm now curious and will see what goes on there. Tomorrow I pick up a large Lightjet print ordered by a person I exposed a sheet on as their group rounded a wilderness lake where I was set up for a lake reflection. After giving out my business cards as they walked by, I later received a sale from one of them and am considering adding it to my public offerings. So I do have a current personal interest in that realm of the artform now though have tended to avoid it generally in the past. ...David
Posted by Don Miller on September 10, 2006 at 3:49 PM
Seems like this situation could be helped by creating a supergroup 'Landscapes'. Click on this link and get both M&N and ES&S. But each category would still exist seperately.
Now, I have a problem too. I mix up 'Flora' and 'Fauna' . Could we change these categories to 'Critters' and 'Shrubs'? Hmmm?
Posted by Don Miller on September 10, 2006 at 3:53 PM
There's obviously the community aspect, but I'm also a firm believer in leadership by examples. I would urge all moderators to foster more participation in their forums, more posting (both comments and images) etc. by setting an example.
Guy
I've learned from photo.net that the clear way to foster forum participation is naked women. Moderators, please make note of this too.
Posted by William Vrolyk on September 10, 2006 at 5:40 PM
You are always going to have more participation in one gallery than in the next. The ESS Gallery is my favorite, so naturally, I will concentrate my comments there more. I have frequented the M&N Gallery lately and enjoyed it immensily. Sometimes I venture further. Avian photographers may notice my comments there, although I know very little about avian photography. I only know what I like. Nevertheless it is harder to comment when the subject is not in the field of your expertise.
I plan to venture in other galleries a bit more but I will not try to divide my time equally between them all. ESS is where I feel most at home.
Discussion
19 repliesA post in the ES&S forum is so well received with help, advice and good feeling.
Lots of excellent stuff gets completely uncredited in M&N, despite the flowing traffic viewing and undoubtedly appreciating the posts. It is naturally going to have more landscapes with human elements than anything else. I am sure the silent traffic is coming from ESandS more than any other forum.
If you are an ES&S junkie like many of us, think of all the great sea battered lighthouses, mystical castles, mist shrouded bridges, dawn windmills, winding stone walls etc your missing!
Dave
David, I agree 100%! In fact, M&N is one of my favorite galleries on NPN.
That said, "landscape photography" is probably the most popular genre of nature photography. Google "landscape photography" and you'll end up with nearly 33 million hits; do the same for "bird photography" and get over 19 million hits. Try something like "lighthouse photography" (perhaps one of the most popular types of "man and nature" photography) and get 3 million hits. By this over-simplistic measure, one could draw the conclusion that landscape photography is 10 times more popular than lighthouse photography. IMO, that is what it all really boils down to - the more popular genres are going to have the most activity in terms of photo critique.
But I do agree - the folks who enjoy the E,S&S gallery really need to spend some time commenting in the M&N gallery too!
Its the Man and Nature Forum and the equivalent Elements of Humankind on Naturescapes that these problems exist. Other forums feel more focused, whereas these can often feel too general. But my point is they literally always containing more landscapes than anything else, usually with complimentary features then obstrusive ones and I am sure the traffic is from ES&S, but everyone is critiqued-out by the time they reach here I am sure so they will only comment on something utterly exceptional, rather than give positive help and advice like they would in their specialised forum. It tends to make it a bit frosty
I purposfully try to include human elements as strong focal points as a matter of choice. I would much rather have a dramatic sea castle than a landscape without. I just want to remind people that a landscape can be finished off with a ruin or a bridge so to critique and look in the Man and Nature forum regularly. There are also some unusual pictures in here. Ian Flindt's moderators pick windmill picture is a class piece of work, a beautiful image complimented by man, which I am sure would of had 30+ comments of the forum got the equivalent attention in ES&S.
Just some thoughts.....
LG
The guidelines state - Landscapes, seascapes, or rural scenes that contain limited evidence of hand-of-man (HOM) such as a path, fence, crops, domesticated animals or people within an overall nature theme.
I think many people seem to ignore the 'containing limited evidence' and also the 'within an overall nature theme' part. If you so much as put a fence post in ES&S you will get many people letting you know. This disregard turns M&N into a strange place if the rules arnt followed tightly. We need to stick to the rules as this is the only way to display consistant quality shots.
This is a good point. At what point does a photo of a landscape that includes a light house become a photo of a light house in an attractive setting? Where and how do you draw the line?
"Guidelines" (as opposed to "rules") leave enough wiggle room for interpretation so that we can enjoy the photo instead of debating whether the photo is appropriate for a certain gallery, or even for the site itself. Out of all of the NPN galleries, Man & Nature is perhaps the most generous in terms of what kind of photos are acceptable, which leads to greater diversity. I personally think that is OK, though if the majority feels otherwise a change may be in order.
Guy
One issue with all popular internet forums is that as threads are scrolled off the front page, they become out of sight, out of mind, and usually ignored regardless of their relative merits. Thus too many threads works against well critiqued inputs. The other is many active participants in any forums tend to post more on those threads with others they have developed forum relationships with. Thus members that have cultivated a thoughtful and responsive relationship with other members will always get far more responses from others than someone else that is less active regardless of the merits of what is posted. Personally I enjoy looking and analyzing photography whether my own or that of others. Something I have done for many years as a way to grow and evolve in this artform. I would rather photographers here commented more in depth and at length and backslapped with vague encouragements less but understand human nature enough to know that won't change here or on other forums. Obviously many here are simply happy to receive several backslapping one-liners from those that respond so. As though it is some kind of level playing field voting system. And might even consider that really means something. At times in the past those responders have possibly more explicitly expressed why they like a person's style so need not repeat such each time.
Because you've mentioned Man & Nature and I've never spent any time there, I'm now curious and will see what goes on there. Tomorrow I pick up a large Lightjet print ordered by a person I exposed a sheet on as their group rounded a wilderness lake where I was set up for a lake reflection. After giving out my business cards as they walked by, I later received a sale from one of them and am considering adding it to my public offerings. So I do have a current personal interest in that realm of the artform now though have tended to avoid it generally in the past. ...David
Now, I have a problem too. I mix up 'Flora' and 'Fauna' . Could we change these categories to 'Critters' and 'Shrubs'? Hmmm?
Guy
I've learned from photo.net that the clear way to foster forum participation is naked women. Moderators, please make note of this too.
I plan to venture in other galleries a bit more but I will not try to divide my time equally between them all. ESS is where I feel most at home.
And let's leave naked women out of this.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada