Posted by David Senesac on September 16, 2006 at 7:36 PM
Why are so many professional outdoor and nature photographers mining the workshop and guided tours end of the photography business? Of course this is nothing new at all. Is there really that much money there? Are their print sales and stock sales too modest such that workshops and tours are that important? Certainly all pros with solid well known reputations will like at times the personal interaction one will get by actively spending time within a community of others that most appreciate their work. And of course those natural teachers of any subject enjoy the teaching process and sharing their knowledge and skills with others. ...David
Posted by Guy Tal on September 16, 2006 at 7:45 PM
I think you answered your own question, David. The two most important aspects (at least to me) are: A) it's immensely satisfying to work with people in the field and (hopefully) teach them something they will value and expose them not only to new technical aspects but also the natural history of a place and general enjoyment of the outdoors, and B) the income is good and more predictable than print sales. It's also a great vehicle for generating word-of-mouth and recognition.
Guy
Posted by Steve Foss on September 16, 2006 at 8:45 PM
Generally speaking, it takes most nature photogs three key types of revenue stream to make a good living. Those are fine art print sales, publication (whether books or magazines) and tours. Of the three, the tours satisfy me most. People who book tours with a photographer do so (in most cases) because they like the photographer's work and hope to drink from that well. So you're helping people come to know themselves and their photographic desires better, which is a lot of fun as well as being vital to growth as a photographer, and you're helping a group that's usually already sold on your technique/expression. And I'm not well known. My work is not published far and wide, and my print sales are modest. So, as for the income, the tours I do are inexpensive for me to mount (basically only fuel costs, insurance and vehicle wear and tear), inexpensive for the customer, and are better pay per/hour than what I get with print sales or publication, particularly when I have multiple clients on the same tour. And I'm out there shooting right alongside them, so I'm continuing to work, even as I'm working, if you know what I mean.
Here's another insight, phrased as a question: "If there's demand for workshops, who else is going to do them other than the pro's?"
Very little of the pro's valuable knowledge was gleaned from school, instead coming from hard work, the field, and the school of hard knocks. Workshop students go to the pro's because they're the best source of info around, especially hands-on training on location. If comparable resources were available from any other source, they would almost certainly be cheaper and closer to home, so folks want the info pretty badly if they'll pay lots and travel far to get it.
Sum all that up as: "There's a need and a demand, so the pro's are stepping up to the plate."
Posted by Danny Burk on September 17, 2006 at 12:40 AM
I'll agree with what's been said above. I greatly enjoy the personal contact and the ability to help others improve their photography skills; if I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't be doing it. To the above "three key types of revenue stream", I add my drum scanning service, but like the other services that don't fall into the workshop categories, it's basically handled through the internet/mailstream. Only the workshops offer such a high degree of personal contact.
Posted by Jim Hutchison on September 17, 2006 at 3:47 AM
...and I'll add my two cents. (Geeze, it's been months since I've interacted with NPN. Been busy.)
As a budding nature photog, the most satisfying and productive time I ever spent improving my skills was at the business end of an agreement between myself and Darwin Wiggett. I built the first iteration of his web site, and I spent a weekend with him in the bush as a barter. Little did I know that we'd end up being buds, but my 2 cents here is this: any time you can spend in the field with a pro is worth *so* much in comparison to school, on-line courses, and self-teaching. My photography took a quantum leap because of that experience, so I encourage anyone to spend their time in intimate, small-group workshop environments to get the most from their investment.
--jim h
Posted by Richard Wong on September 17, 2006 at 11:27 AM
When you're able to charge $1,000+ for a 15 person workshop and sell out regularly like Mountain Light does, then yeah I would think it is profitable. It's certainly more fun getting paid to shoot and talk about it than selling stock or prints.
Posted by David Senesac on September 17, 2006 at 2:32 PM
I have read some discussions on other forums that noted sometimes pros leading such trips let their desire to make shots get in the way of the teaching process. There are a fair number of landscape subjects that require quite a bit of time sitting on a subject waiting for more ideal elements to come together. For instance waiting for distracting shadows to shrink, for nice clouds to float across the sky, for the intermittent breeze across wavy waters to calm or vegetation to stop bobbing about. Thus a pro will have conflicts when both leading workshops and shooting at the same time. I'd expect the wise and considerate ones don't allow the latter to dominate their actions. So simply dragging along others for a fee to leverage their costs on photography tours is potentially problematic. In any case a considerate pro would consider that and expect to lose some potential great images for the sake of the workshop and just hope that they will still at times bring home some fine images along the way. ...David
Posted by Jack Graham on September 17, 2006 at 10:13 PM
Folks,
You all make great points. I learned very early in my days of photograpy and doing workshops, that you get what you give.
I do my best t give everyone 100% and it's agreat feeling to see their work after spending time with them in the field.
JG
Posted by Cliff Beittel on September 18, 2006 at 9:40 AM
". . . a considerate pro would consider that and expect to lose some potential great images for the sake of the workshop and just hope that they will still at times bring home some fine images along the way."
I take the opposite position, advocated by Galen Rowell, that workshop participants are better served by an instructor doing the utmost to get great shots. If you want to know how it's done, best to see it done. With the instructor talking his way through the process, there's no reason participants can't be greatly improving their own results at the same time.
I anger lots of pros with my stance on this, to the point that some call me a nazi. I guess I had better learn to goose step, because thirty years of teaching hasn't shown me anything to change my mind.
I'm an old time teacher, and for me the student and learning come first. Period. When they've paid lots of bucks to be there, the onus for learning is even more heavily resting on the teacher's shoulders.
If the teacher is using the students to pay his/her expenses to get into a great location, fine. Get there early or stay late for the pro shooting, but while the students are on hand, they and their shots are your highest moral obligation for a teacher. If the conditions and action are so great and the perspective so good from a particular spot, what in the world is the teacher's tripod doing in the way of the students' tripods?
Hmmm. On second thought, maybe I should learn the stiff-armed salute to go with my goose stepping.
Posted by Guy Tal on September 18, 2006 at 10:20 AM
I agree with Hank. I do not make any images of my own during a technically-oriented workshop (e.g. Introduction to LF which I teach with Michael Gordon). The only exception is if/when we go on a group shoot (e.g. sunrise or sunset) where the goal is to get to a place and for each person to work on their own images for a while, always within the designated timeframe and not cutting into teaching time.
If I'm hired as an area guide rather than a teacher, I may use whatever time the client is working on their images to grab a couple of my own but never ask them to wait for me.
I think each individual workshop student group will dictate, to a certain extent, the activities that take place during actual photography. Some groups will require less instruction and some, more. The instructor has an obligation to carefully and accurately judge the abilities of the students and then proceed from there.
If the group is 'getting it' and the instructor feels comfortable, then he/she can shoot away; but be ready to assist any student that asks for help. The flip side is a student group who's skills require a more 'hands' on approach. In this instance, the instructor is obligated to give their time to the student, great light notwithstanding.
In my opinion, an instructor who is on their toes will be able to balance their own shooting as well as meet the needs of their students, but always making sure that the student comes first.
-PB
Posted by Cliff Beittel on September 18, 2006 at 11:02 AM
"I anger lots of pros with my stance on this . . . "
No anger here, as I don't lead workshops, just an honest opinion. Of course, there's no reason buyers shouldn't have both options, choose the one they like best.
That's the critical point Cliff. Pros have to be very clear with students on how the event will be conducted. If they're up front about their plans to shoot and that's fine with the students, fire away!
I think lots of confusion develops because the terms "class" and "workshop" and "photo trek" get tossed around pretty freely, yet they can mean pretty specific things to conventional educators like me (I'm a retired professor).
I've had to draw really strict lines because of the facts about the way I shoot, and frankly how I see other pros shoot even while supposedly teaching. Put a viewfinder in front of my eye, and I get really single minded about the shot, noticing less and less about my immediate surroundings as the action builds, and even regarding other shooters as obstacles to my own shooting. That's certainly not conducive to paying attention to student needs, or worse yet, stopping my own shooting when conditions are spectacular.
When I'm teaching in the field, the only time a piece of gear comes out of my kit is for loan to a student, probably with a very quick demo. If I'm not willing to loan a piece of gear, it simply doesn't go with me. How many pro's would give up their 600mm f/4 and IDS MkII to a student when the ivory billed woodpecker lands on a limb 20 feet away? That's a reasonable test of their convictions about teaching!
If I'm hired as an area guide rather than a teacher, I may use whatever time the client is working on their images to grab a couple of my own but never ask them to wait for me.
It's probably no surprise that my thoughts are in line with Guy's.
In an instructional (not touring) workshop, photographers are spending their hard-earned money to learn from me/us. I consider it less than respectful and professional to pursue my own agenda while the attendees stand by. During 'official' hours of instruction, I give our participants my all. They deserve nothing less as they've invested trust, confidence, and respect by choosing to hire me/us over the myriad other available workshops. 'Customer service' is a huge issue for me, and I make it a priority to keep my/our participants happy and fulfilled.
Posted by Vandit Kalia on September 18, 2006 at 2:16 PM
Well, I run photo tours & workshops as well, and while I agree with Guy & Hank's approach, I think there really isnt that strong a conflict of interest here.
For landscapes, if I am setting up, I talk to the participants about what I am looking at, and answer any questions they may in the process. I find that sharing my own thought processes when decided what to capture is something that most people do appreciate a lot. Capturing the shot is the "easy" part, relatively speaking.
Similarly, for wildlife, we go over the preparation phase together including metering, focusing, etc. Then, when the action happens, we all shoot away.
If there are any questions in the middle of the shoot, then yes, the participants get priority over the shot. Goes without saying - they are the client and their needs come first.
Vandit
Posted by Steve Foss on September 18, 2006 at 7:16 PM
Good discussioin, good points. Since I don't shoot landscapes (well, not in the traditional sense discussed here), I'm out of that aspect of the discussion.
But the premise holds true regardless of the type of nature shooting. Unless lighting is ideal and long-lasting and the subject is static (flowers, mushrooms, etc), the perfect moment almost always is a fleeting circumstance. I make plain on my Web site and in my advertisements that the client comes first, that I am there to facilitate the best possible experience.
What's the best? That varies widely from client to client. In almost all cases, I gently insist that THEY do the shooting, with my guidance and tips as necessary. For some, little is required except guiding to good locations. Accomplished shooters who need no instruction still often need local photo guides. Some of the less confident clients would certainly allow me to do almost all the shooting, and would feel they'd gotten their money's worth by watching me do it and explaining how, why, and when I do it. An engaged and intelligent mind can learn quite a lot by watching, but the most complete learning almost always involves the doing, not the watching. And it's the doing that can empower the timid or uncertain, the sudden knowledge, bolstered by a professional, that shows "Hey, I CAN do this, and it looks GOOD!"
If there's a rush shared by teacher and student more complete than that moment of empowerment, I've never felt it.
And, lastly, a bit about terms. For me, a workshop is a setting in which I teach and the clients do. Period. It is highly structured, often partly in a classroom in front of computers with Photoshop, and even in the field is pretty rigidly structured to allow me to make specific points in specific situations. A photo tour (or, as I prefer to call it, an excursion), allows the guide to do some shooting, too, but only as circumstances allow. For me, an excursion is far more loosey-goosey, with circumstances, weather and subjects, as well as clients, dictating the pace and the type of interaction. This is why I almost never do workshops, but love to do excursions, because I am not a fellow who feels rewarded by rigidity. When the schedule dictates the experience, the art suffers. I realize this is simply my interpretation of those terms, and that others see things differently. It's a big world out there, and we all see it differently.
But hey, it's a bit of IMO that keeps the stew stirring in the pot, eh?
I find learding tour/workshope a very enjoyable experiance.
I feel my job as a tour/workshop leader is to put my clients in the best position to get great shots at the location we are working. Then to show them how to get that shot and suggest ways to capture their own vision of the subject.
To me it makes the whole trip when people want to shoot the subject we are working in a unique way. This is the type of interaction that makes the complete process fulfilling.
I like lighting that fire.
I take small groups to encourage that spontaneity. If it was done just for the money I could just fill a van and tell people what a great shot they captured by standing in one place and hyping a mundane subject.
Discussion
18 repliesI think you answered your own question, David. The two most important aspects (at least to me) are: A) it's immensely satisfying to work with people in the field and (hopefully) teach them something they will value and expose them not only to new technical aspects but also the natural history of a place and general enjoyment of the outdoors, and B) the income is good and more predictable than print sales. It's also a great vehicle for generating word-of-mouth and recognition.
Guy
Very little of the pro's valuable knowledge was gleaned from school, instead coming from hard work, the field, and the school of hard knocks. Workshop students go to the pro's because they're the best source of info around, especially hands-on training on location. If comparable resources were available from any other source, they would almost certainly be cheaper and closer to home, so folks want the info pretty badly if they'll pay lots and travel far to get it.
Sum all that up as: "There's a need and a demand, so the pro's are stepping up to the plate."
As a budding nature photog, the most satisfying and productive time I ever spent improving my skills was at the business end of an agreement between myself and Darwin Wiggett. I built the first iteration of his web site, and I spent a weekend with him in the bush as a barter. Little did I know that we'd end up being buds, but my 2 cents here is this: any time you can spend in the field with a pro is worth *so* much in comparison to school, on-line courses, and self-teaching. My photography took a quantum leap because of that experience, so I encourage anyone to spend their time in intimate, small-group workshop environments to get the most from their investment.
--jim h
You all make great points. I learned very early in my days of photograpy and doing workshops, that you get what you give.
I do my best t give everyone 100% and it's agreat feeling to see their work after spending time with them in the field.
JG
I take the opposite position, advocated by Galen Rowell, that workshop participants are better served by an instructor doing the utmost to get great shots. If you want to know how it's done, best to see it done. With the instructor talking his way through the process, there's no reason participants can't be greatly improving their own results at the same time.
I'm an old time teacher, and for me the student and learning come first. Period. When they've paid lots of bucks to be there, the onus for learning is even more heavily resting on the teacher's shoulders.
If the teacher is using the students to pay his/her expenses to get into a great location, fine. Get there early or stay late for the pro shooting, but while the students are on hand, they and their shots are your highest moral obligation for a teacher. If the conditions and action are so great and the perspective so good from a particular spot, what in the world is the teacher's tripod doing in the way of the students' tripods?
Hmmm. On second thought, maybe I should learn the stiff-armed salute to go with my goose stepping.
If I'm hired as an area guide rather than a teacher, I may use whatever time the client is working on their images to grab a couple of my own but never ask them to wait for me.
Guy
If the group is 'getting it' and the instructor feels comfortable, then he/she can shoot away; but be ready to assist any student that asks for help. The flip side is a student group who's skills require a more 'hands' on approach. In this instance, the instructor is obligated to give their time to the student, great light notwithstanding.
In my opinion, an instructor who is on their toes will be able to balance their own shooting as well as meet the needs of their students, but always making sure that the student comes first.
-PB
No anger here, as I don't lead workshops, just an honest opinion. Of course, there's no reason buyers shouldn't have both options, choose the one they like best.
I think lots of confusion develops because the terms "class" and "workshop" and "photo trek" get tossed around pretty freely, yet they can mean pretty specific things to conventional educators like me (I'm a retired professor).
I've had to draw really strict lines because of the facts about the way I shoot, and frankly how I see other pros shoot even while supposedly teaching. Put a viewfinder in front of my eye, and I get really single minded about the shot, noticing less and less about my immediate surroundings as the action builds, and even regarding other shooters as obstacles to my own shooting. That's certainly not conducive to paying attention to student needs, or worse yet, stopping my own shooting when conditions are spectacular.
When I'm teaching in the field, the only time a piece of gear comes out of my kit is for loan to a student, probably with a very quick demo. If I'm not willing to loan a piece of gear, it simply doesn't go with me. How many pro's would give up their 600mm f/4 and IDS MkII to a student when the ivory billed woodpecker lands on a limb 20 feet away? That's a reasonable test of their convictions about teaching!
It's probably no surprise that my thoughts are in line with Guy's.
In an instructional (not touring) workshop, photographers are spending their hard-earned money to learn from me/us. I consider it less than respectful and professional to pursue my own agenda while the attendees stand by. During 'official' hours of instruction, I give our participants my all. They deserve nothing less as they've invested trust, confidence, and respect by choosing to hire me/us over the myriad other available workshops. 'Customer service' is a huge issue for me, and I make it a priority to keep my/our participants happy and fulfilled.
For landscapes, if I am setting up, I talk to the participants about what I am looking at, and answer any questions they may in the process. I find that sharing my own thought processes when decided what to capture is something that most people do appreciate a lot. Capturing the shot is the "easy" part, relatively speaking.
Similarly, for wildlife, we go over the preparation phase together including metering, focusing, etc. Then, when the action happens, we all shoot away.
If there are any questions in the middle of the shoot, then yes, the participants get priority over the shot. Goes without saying - they are the client and their needs come first.
Vandit
But the premise holds true regardless of the type of nature shooting. Unless lighting is ideal and long-lasting and the subject is static (flowers, mushrooms, etc), the perfect moment almost always is a fleeting circumstance. I make plain on my Web site and in my advertisements that the client comes first, that I am there to facilitate the best possible experience.
What's the best? That varies widely from client to client. In almost all cases, I gently insist that THEY do the shooting, with my guidance and tips as necessary. For some, little is required except guiding to good locations. Accomplished shooters who need no instruction still often need local photo guides. Some of the less confident clients would certainly allow me to do almost all the shooting, and would feel they'd gotten their money's worth by watching me do it and explaining how, why, and when I do it. An engaged and intelligent mind can learn quite a lot by watching, but the most complete learning almost always involves the doing, not the watching. And it's the doing that can empower the timid or uncertain, the sudden knowledge, bolstered by a professional, that shows "Hey, I CAN do this, and it looks GOOD!"
If there's a rush shared by teacher and student more complete than that moment of empowerment, I've never felt it.
And, lastly, a bit about terms. For me, a workshop is a setting in which I teach and the clients do. Period. It is highly structured, often partly in a classroom in front of computers with Photoshop, and even in the field is pretty rigidly structured to allow me to make specific points in specific situations. A photo tour (or, as I prefer to call it, an excursion), allows the guide to do some shooting, too, but only as circumstances allow. For me, an excursion is far more loosey-goosey, with circumstances, weather and subjects, as well as clients, dictating the pace and the type of interaction. This is why I almost never do workshops, but love to do excursions, because I am not a fellow who feels rewarded by rigidity. When the schedule dictates the experience, the art suffers. I realize this is simply my interpretation of those terms, and that others see things differently. It's a big world out there, and we all see it differently.
But hey, it's a bit of IMO that keeps the stew stirring in the pot, eh?
I feel my job as a tour/workshop leader is to put my clients in the best position to get great shots at the location we are working. Then to show them how to get that shot and suggest ways to capture their own vision of the subject.
To me it makes the whole trip when people want to shoot the subject we are working in a unique way. This is the type of interaction that makes the complete process fulfilling.
I like lighting that fire.
I take small groups to encourage that spontaneity. If it was done just for the money I could just fill a van and tell people what a great shot they captured by standing in one place and hyping a mundane subject.