To an admitted fault, this has always been my mindset when it comes to NPN. Sure, "if it's not broken, don't fix it." That statement is certainly valid, but IMO we must at least always be thinking of ways to improve. So with that said, I offer the following for your consideration;
1. In terms of value of NPN membership, what can we do better? With image hosting and an online portfolio as the main benefits, what else would be of value to you as part of membership?
2. As a extension of the first question, should NPN articles be for members only? I ask this only because membership dollars pay for these articles. Our editorial budget for 2006 is over $5000, so give this one some thought.
3. Is a yearly NPN convention of interest? There has been discussion of this in the past where a NPN regional group would do the leg work of hosting the convention, and we would hold sponsor-paid seminars and a mini trade show to help defray the costs. I have always liked this idea, but it would take a sizeable group effort to make it happen.
4. As an extension of question 3, would you be willing to volunteer to help organize and run a convention?
I look forward to your responses, and any other ideas you may have. Thanks!
Posted by Roger Rouch on October 1, 2006 at 1:12 PM
Jim, it has seemed to me that over the years that I've been a NPN participant the quality and notariety of NPN has increased significantly. When I'm out in the field and run across photographers, there is a decent chance that they've heard of and visit the web site, or are members. As other socially or environmentally businesses that I'm aware of have grown beyond struggling, they have often included some sort of giving program to beneficial non-profits. Not only does this help certain causes, but also elevates the business image. Would it be out of line to suggest that a small portion of our dues is donated to an envirnomental organization, even if it means a modest similar increase in fees? There are a few global organizations that come to mind such as TNC or the WWF. This could be determined annually by vote.
In response to 2, 3 and 4...for members only, probably would not be interested in a convention unless it was close by, and if so I'd be willing to help out.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 1, 2006 at 1:26 PM
Roger, thanks for your response!
Not out of line at all to suggest the donations. In fact, we already do this with Images for Conservation Fund - when someone signs up for one of their $100 annual memberships, we offer a free NPN membership when they join from the NPN membership page.
To develop your idea further, we could have several membership options structured in a similiar way for other organizations. For example, if we had a $49 membership of which the extra $10 goes towards such an organization, NPN would contribute $5 on top. So for the $49 spent, the person would be effectively contributing $15 and getting a one year NPN membership on top. A great deal, and certainly a great idea!
Congratulations and best success to you and your family. These are very exciting times that we live in (dangerous, no doubt, but also exciting) and now you can impact those times in ways very unique to yourself.
By way of input from one registered NPN member, perhaps NPN could benefit from some of my own observations
*** I very much appreciate this site. It is intelligent, quiet (somewhat like walking in the woods), informative and helpful. It also seems to be well moderated and civil.
*** I appreciate that the site doesn't devolve into a radical political vehicle . . . or even any other kind of political vehicle.
*** I particularly like that NPN provides a mechanism for sending new forum activity directly to my personal email.
*** I am also a member of Nikonians.org and think that perhaps NPN could benefit from a membership plan somewhat akin to theirs.
*** I find the ease of negotiating this site very "mysterious" -- in other words difficult -- and I am not lightweight when it comes to computer capabilities.
*** I have been for, quite some time considering where to post my pictures and probably the only reason I haven't yet gone forward with choosing NPN is that it is more limiting as to type of pictures that can be posted. I know there is only so much bandwidth available, and bandwidth is expensive, but perhaps it would be nice to have the ability to include a small "Personal" gallery in our NPN Portfolios. It could even serve as a kind of BIO of the Portfolio owner.
*** I might prefer more natural and "organic" colors for the site's layout (as in banners, border colors, etc).
Lastly, I would be interested in contributing to the labor of the site, and I suspect other people might be interested as well.
My very best to you and to NPN
Laurel (Catherine)
Posted by Roger Rouch on October 1, 2006 at 1:44 PM
I like your ideas, Jim. Hey, it works for Ben and Jerry's. I suppose there could be some tax benefits?
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 1, 2006 at 1:57 PM
Laurel, thanks for your observations, comments and suggestions - they are all appreciated!
I admit I don't spend much (if any) time on other photography websites. If you don't mind, would you care to elaborate on the Nikonian membership plan? Expanding/improving NPN's is a top priortity and I am very open to ideas on how to do so.
I agree that NPN needs to be improved in terms of navigation. I feel the site is now so large that it would be a daunting task, but again I am open to any ideas or suggestions.
I like the idea of a personal photo section for members. This could easily be constructed as a separate gallery on NPN where the photos are not automatically deleted after 35 days, just like the Member Photo gallery. What do you think?
2.3.4.->
For members, obvious reason. I will try my best to help organize such an event if it is in Germany or around(EU).
Posted by Bill Chambers on October 1, 2006 at 2:59 PM
Hi Jim,
I really do believe in the "ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy. All too often "new & improved" turns out to be neither. I have nothing against positive change, but am 100% against change just for change sake.
RE: NPN articles. IMO, one of the great traits of NPN is that it welcomes visitors and non-members with open arms. I believe this leads to many new members in the long run. I would not like to see NPN become more "exclusive" or to be perceived as such. There's too many snobby "members only" sites out there now.
RE: Convention - sounds like a great idea. I would definitely attend if it happened to be within reasonable driving distance (I don't fly ). Also, any thoughts on perhaps having some regional mini-get-togethers. I would love to meet more of my fellow NPN'ers.
RE: Contributions to conservation orgs. As great as this sounds it really worries me as well. One of the strongest attractions of NPN is the fact that's it's non-political in nature. For my tastes I would prefer to continue personally donating to the orgs I choose and leave NPN totally non-political. This seems to be one of those paths that, when started upon, it's very difficult to remove one's self from, and the path just seems to get wider and wider as you travel down it. I can't help but think this would some day lead to polarization and political in-fighting within our group over which orgs get supported and which don't. Seen it happen way too many times!!!
RE: Other ideas - any possibilities of coming up with a low cost equipment insurance plan for members. Obviously, this would be optional and cost extra from membership dues. Just a thought...
Fortunately, there's very little broken within NPN, so very little fixing is needed IMO. You're doing a great job - keep it up!!!
Posted by Don Miller on October 1, 2006 at 2:59 PM
Articles for NPN members only seems like a workable idea. It's probably pretty clear you shouldn't restrict the forums. :)
Have you considered a central directory of approved workshops as a revenue-generating effort?
How about NPN photographic travel you organize. Many of us are not going to do workshops. but there is probably some demand for some kind of organized travel.
Hi Jim, thanks for providing an opportunity for us to chip in with our opinions. In my capacity as a paying member of NPN, I believe there could be some changes
- the website interface is very clumsy IMO. The front page is a nightmare to navigate, and there is no quick login/logout buttons.
- there is wayy too much text for the front page.
(The above two arguments would apply for photoportfolios.net too)
- I find it archaic to have the photoportfolios website separate from NPN. I believe it's being run by the same team, so the separation is un-intuitive to me.
- I find the idea of separately uploading photos for critique in the photo forums in NPN (rather than using the portfolio links from photoportfolios.net) also very clumsy, un-intuitive, and bandwidth intensive.
- People cannot express their opinions on other people's photo portfolios, if and only if the owner of the portfolio posts his/her photos for critique here on NPN. I find that ... for loss of a better word ... wierd.
- on both NPN and photoportfolios.net, there is a lot of repetition of text. For ex., there's text on "About" on the frontpage of photoportfolios.net, and there is a link for more "About". I find this duplication rather cumbersome, and counter-intuitive for a site that's about photographs. There are many such examples.
- The use of photograph/thumbnails and signatures in forum postings takes up almost half the bandwidth! (I'm sure that's one area in which you can make significant bandwidth savings by eliminating the signatures and the signature photos). I find it wierd to keep reading the same thing over and over again in people's signatures - some forum topics have more signature text in them than photos or text in the form of comments.
- Lastly - the size of the thumbnails of the photographs on NPN and Photoportfolios.net is extremely small - I just cannot see what's being shown without seeing each and every photograph in it's original posted dimension. This completely defeats the purpose of having the thumbnails altogether.
- on a related note, I'm sure NPN would do a good job of organising photography treks (not sponsored, but individually conceived, paid for and managed by individual members). Sometimes we just end up getting ripped off by travel trip organisers who aren't photographers anyways and don't seem to understand very well our requirement of making a stop every 1.43 minutes of the trek. :)
Regards,
Ashutosh
Posted by Richard Wong on October 1, 2006 at 4:28 PM
1. I'm happy with the current benefits, which includes the links / signatures / portfolios / the guilt of knowing if you didn't pay.
2. I think it's a double-edged sword. NPN has a lot of paying members it seems, while on the other hand, having it open to all might help draw in the business. The main selling point of NPN in my opinion is the professionalism of everyone here. Rarely is anything taken personally.
3. I'm not a fan of conventions, but if there was one maybe space would be offered to members to market themselves. And this would be open and marketed to the general photography-buying public.
Another thought was maybe, if NPN had an annual gathering for each forum. Ex. ES&S has a gathering in the Eastern Sierra. Avian has a gathering at Bosque. M&N at a New England fishing village. Flora at Longwood Gardens, etc...
Posted by Roger Rouch on October 1, 2006 at 4:40 PM
Me again, another idea that may not fly but will throw it out. If the photoportfolios could come closer to a personal web page it might attract more interest. For those of us who would like a personal hosted or business photo web site but just can't afford it or justify the expense. It's close, but just not quite there. How about a way to have a customized front page with the ability see other pages by category....by season, subject, or whatever. I'm not the computer guy, so maybe not a perfect thought.
NPN membership, this is a hard one, the main benefits are the portfolio's and editors pick awards. That's fine but if your not interested in them then without a membership you can do everything else, you can read the article the members pay for, you can post images off your own server at the same rate members can and you can read and post in all the forums.mmm Why buy a membership??
Myy suggestion would be to limit what non members can do. But still let them have a feel for the site. Can read the forums but limit which ones they could post in or not post att all ( bit drastic) same as the images forums. Don't want to stop them posting but limit maybe 1 image a week as opposed to members 1 every 48hr or something like that.
Again articles are hard as well, you don't want to not let non members read the articles but maybe only 1 article a month, members can see all.
There has to be more reasons than just the portfolio's and editors pick for a membership and while it would be nice to offer more in the way of giveaways finance would have to support it. more memberships would help in regard so limit what a non member can do.
Just a little on the site
Having been here since almost the begining of NPN most changes that have taken place have been for the better but a few have me wondering. On top of this page highlighted in red is a forum index, click this a pop up comes up with all the forums so you can choose which forum you want, then just above the flagged not is a pop down menu doing the same thing, I hate both of them. One or other would be a good idea or just have a menu down the side of the forum that you don't need a pop window to make work.
As for a yearly convention lets make the first one here in Victoria Australia
Now a couple of things for Ashtosh,,
Some of what you have written I agree with totally, I find the interface a little hard to get around and mention one of things I don't understand. but
- People cannot express their opinions on other people's photo portfolios, if and only if the owner of the portfolio posts his/her photos for critique here on NPN. I find that ... for loss of a better word ... wierd.
Portfolios exsist so people can showcase their best work to a client, it's not there so others can start a discussion on whether they like or dislike someones portfolio. Could you image the amount of discussion that couls end up on the pay. MORE text. When a image is placed in the critque forum it there for discussion. The portfolio section of the site should be seperate as it's not part of the discussion section of NPN. It's there for members to showcase a selection of their work for potental buyers.
Not sure what screen resolution you use but I use 1600x1200 and I can see the thumb nails perfectly. how much bigger shoould they be??
Just a couple of thoughts
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 1, 2006 at 5:05 PM
Thanks again to all for taking the time to comment and offer your suggestions on how to expand the variety of memberships offered, as well as ideas on how to cultivate the social aspects of belonging to NPN. This, IMO, should be the focus of this discussion - how to further build NPN as an organization.
BTW, the mechanics of website construction and what constitutes good design is not really the intended topic of this discussion.
Keith, I agree that I have a humongous monitor (a 22" IBM C220P), set at 1920x1440
But when I make comparisons with other "photography" sites out there, I find the NPN thumbnails too small.
Jim, agreed, I will stay away from the topic of website construction. My software development background just saw those things as possible improvements to be made in order to reduce bandwidth costs.
On the topic of making articles available for non-subscribers, I believe a strategy as that adopted by USENIX would be the right way to go.
USENIX had this strategy of making all articles viewable for paying subscribers only, but only for about a year, after which they were made free for everybody.
The strategy does work IMO. Afterall you want to reward those who have paid you and not those who haven't paid
PS: FYI I discovered NPN after accidentally stumbling upon Darwin Wiggett's 3 year old articles on the internet.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 1, 2006 at 5:22 PM
Keith, indeed you have been around for a long time, through thick and thin - thanks for being here for the long haul!
As you know, we have experimented somewhat with limiting non-member benefits in the forums. As others have eluded to, it's tough to take away benefits that are currently offered. But as we continue to build NPN as an organization, new benefits can certainly be designated as "member only."
Finding ways for members to contribute to "worthy causes" without upsetting our non-political atmosphere, organizing regional events, etc. are IMO great suggestions to consider. Through exchanges like this one, we can develop these ideas and determine if they have merit and are worth pursuing.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 1, 2006 at 5:30 PM
On the topic of making articles available for non-subscribers, I believe a strategy as that adopted by USENIX would be the right way to go. USENIX had this strategy of making all articles viewable for paying subscribers only, but only for about a year, after which they were made free for everybody.
This is something I had thought about previously but just never followed through with figuring out the mechanics of implementation. I think it's a good idea and would be fair to both paying members and non-members alike. I would need some help and suggestions on the mechanics of making it work.
- - - I haven't read all of what is posted on this one, so forgive if this repeats anything.
To me, overall quality of this site is in the top 5 of ones I have visited, and I visit sites all the time.
The one MAIN thing I have always had problems with here is the e-mail replies,
or lack there-of. For many that might pass without notice, but for one who writes for here,
it can make for some major problems.
So I would say maybe you need an extra hand in that area.
As for members only articles, I think that would be the best idea in many ways.
But that alone would not generate more $$$ for more articles.
So, I would maybe think about adding a $5 "benifits" charge on the membership fees in order to get that feature, or something like it. You can always ask on here who would like that idea and if most do, then most would be willing to pay for it, and most new members would probably feel the same. People who don't need it, don't have to pay anything extra, and those who do want it can pay for what they get.
HOWEVER, for this new charge I would assure that there would be a lot more pieces than there are now. Then basically you could just add as many new articles as the extra fees would pay for. The more people willing to pay, the more they get for their money. Should by chance there end up to be extra $$$ even after that, then maybe you can put that to having a monthly contest that has "store" prizes from it.
More benifits usually means more people interested in joining the site.
ADD-ON - - - Why not also do ad banners on this site for more sales income?
Let companies pay most of the extra cost and not the members. That would be an added benifit for joining. I would guess that there are some people on here who can put NPN in touch with companies. I can reach a lot of publishers and manufacturers of photo and digital products. I have tried that in the past for NPN, but gave up after I couldn't get any of those (hint) e-mail replies. Sooner or later you are going to HAVE TO look more to ads anyway. You can only ask members to pay for so much.
For what it's worth, I'd be disappointed if articles became locked behind a "members-only" firewall. I link to them often, thereby promoting the site.
I'd be okay with increasing membership fees or adding more for members-only though. One thing I'd like to see is detailed field trip notes. For example, if I'm travelling to White Sands NM, I'd love to have a Guide To The Area from other photographers - not just photographic points of interest, but where to stay, where to eat, what you need to know in advance (e.g., in White Sands case, you need to call ahead to see if the road will be closed), times of year for particular types of photographs, other places along the way that are worth a sidetrip and why, areas not explored...
- - - A travel section would be a great addition, BUT does NPN really want to compete with it's friends at TPN? I don't see that as a good idea. Not unless both sites worked on something together. And only then. You don't rip off your friends!!!
- - - While I was just making the bed I had another idea.
You just finished a job in sales.
Every company has sales people who get a commission for what they sell.
Just make NPN members sales people.
You offer something like a discount for every member who brings in a paid new member. When they pay their fees, they just fill in a box for who recomended them to this site, and that current member gets the discount from the NPN store. One discount per item.
Posted by Ed Cordes on October 1, 2006 at 10:49 PM
I think the $39 I spend each year on NPN is one of the best bargains I buy in photography. I find the posting and critiquing as well as the articles and portfolios the main benefits of memebership.
Somehave suggested limiting posting to non members to once a week. This is a good idea as it will allow a non member to experience the site but not take up a lot of band width without paying. Maybe once a week is too long; perhaps double the standard 48 hours is correct?
Perhaps there could be basic articles available to non members, but thenhave some advanced, more detailed articles for members only??
It would certainly be difficult for NPN to sponsor and organize photography travel. However, maybe there could be NPN member only days or trips organized by existing photographic workshops and travel companies. I realize this is hard to organize, but it might be something the trip/workshop vendors will take on.
All this said, it deserves repeating that I consider my membership a great value "as is".
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 2, 2006 at 6:23 AM
For what it's worth, I'd be disappointed if articles became locked behind a "members-only" firewall. I link to them often, thereby promoting the site.
Daniel, great counterpoint - thanks for posting it!
Posted by Richard Wong on October 2, 2006 at 6:20 PM
To borrow an idea from Naturescapes.net, what if the posts that were most recently commented on are bumped up to the top? That way if someone comments on a topic that was posted a few months ago, won't get lost.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 2, 2006 at 6:47 PM
Richard, we can already do that. Just under the green navigation bar on the right side (on the topics listing page or IC thumbnails page), each user can select to sort topics/photos by post date or by last reply.
Pretty cool, eh?
Posted by Bob Steele on October 2, 2006 at 7:09 PM
Pretty cool, eh?
And, you get to choose which way it is! You can change the default setting to either way in your Preferences too! Really cool, I'd say!
- I'd leave the articles open to everyone...I discovered NPN years ago when I was searching something about the flash...I found an article on NPN by Joe McDonald on NPN and so I discovered this beautiful website!
- a worldwide NPN meeting would be great...it would be really cool to know by person many friends of NPN...since the majority of members are from US for me it would be OK to make the convetion there, it is a bit distant from my home but it is not a big problem (maybe not this year, but anyway I was already thinking to a trip in the US next year).
Posted by Richard Wong on October 2, 2006 at 10:11 PM
Thanks Jim, I didn't know. I must be a bit illiterate.
I think the extra personal, undeletable, gallery sounds very companionable and could easily strengthen the sense of community in NPN.
I researched, a little, membership scales for various sites and sent the results to you by private email. I was afraid I would be violating some kind of copyright by posting the information publicly.
I also liked Roger Rouch' stab at photo websites as an idea for NPN. I know I have been looking for a place to call home for a website . . . but I wanted it to be spare and elegant and technologically simple . . . I wanted it to be part of a group of photographers that I felt were more serious than just snapshotting . . . and most of all, and perhaps firstly I wanted it to be a site that that brought in a lot of traffic.
It seems like this subject holds some promise for NPN -- kind of like niche marketing in that it isn't something that any other group site has done, to date . . . I don't think anyway), but I am not a programmer and so cannot add anymore detail than just my paltry wish list.
I was recently reading a series of articles by Richard Weisgrau and it was his conclusion that for photographers to survive in this time of diminishing returns, per stock photography, photographers will have to set up their own cooperatives. Perhaps, unconsciously, there is some of this idea in Roger Rouch's post.
Laurel (Catherine)
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 3, 2006 at 5:25 AM
Thanks Jim, I didn't know. I must be a bit illiterate.
I think it's more the case that there's so much going on that it's all hard to keep track of. Makes me think a "monthly tip" on the various site features would be a good idea.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 3, 2006 at 5:33 AM
Juza, thanks for your comments! I am convinced that we need to organize more meetings of NPN members. The idea of numerous smaller, more regional meets seems to be a bit more workable than one large yearly convention. I think this is an important aspect of NPN that must be developed.
If you make it to the U.S., please let us know when and where so we can plan a meeting!
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 3, 2006 at 5:46 AM
Laurel, thanks for your suggestions!
Some of the ideas we are dicussing are entirely software related. As such, any changes made carry the burden of costing NPN the programmer's fee. As I have discovered from first-hand experience, running up huge bills with DTP (Dave The Programmer) is quite easy to do.
PhotoPortfolios is very much part of what we do, and there are several ideas that have been left on the "back burner" since its inception, due to lack of time to develop. One of those ideas is to offer a "premium" service that could include a custom cover page, a few more features and most importantly, active promotion (as opposed to the current "passive" promotion) to photo buyers. This has always been a planned "stage 2" of development, but one that I knew from the beginning could only happen when the time was available to administrate it.
In the past, it's always been a case of "so many good ideas, so little time to do any of them." And after a while, I almost forget about that long list of "good ideas" amidst the rigors of everyday living and trying to hold down a fulltime job. Thanks for bringing this up - I think the time has come to move this one forward!
Posted by David Chauvin on October 3, 2006 at 8:04 AM
Jim,,,,,I really like the idea of a premium portfolio service. Creating a personal website has been a goal but getting noticed is a concern. The "co-op" concept Laurel cited would help to solve this problem, especially with the amount of talent already massed in the NPN community.
I've mentioned this before but think it's worth mentioning again. One thing that separates NPN from all other internet forums is the fact that people here use their real names and not some internet pseudonym. It may seem like a little thing, but I believe it creates a sense of civility and accountability not found in places that allow folks to hide in anonymity. Should this be a requirement for membership?
David
Posted by Carl Donohue on October 3, 2006 at 11:39 AM
Hey Jim,
I'd be disapointed if the articles were for members only. how would you implement this? If users have to register to see the articles, it'll also mean search engines don't spider those articles. This also means any links included in articles won't be counted in a websites 'incomnig links'. I have written a few, largely for the purposes of getting some links to my sites. If NPN goes this route, it'd be a disincentive to write articles for NPN.
I think pumping up the portfolios site is a good idea.
Cheers
Carl
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 3, 2006 at 11:47 AM
Carl, I agree. Everytime we have thought of making the articles for members only, it was never done for these very reasons. I think in the "big picture" keeping the articles public domain remains in our best interest - but it doesn't hurt to review that policy from time to time.
PhotoPortfolios will take some work to go "stage 2" but should be worth the effort!
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 4, 2006 at 5:42 AM
One thing that separates NPN from all other internet forums is the fact that people here use their real names and not some internet pseudonym. It may seem like a little thing, but I believe it creates a sense of civility and accountability not found in places that allow folks to hide in anonymity.
David, an excellent point and one I agree with 100%!
Jim: I haven't had time to read all the comments, so I may be duplicating. Some general observations --
1. In my opinion, non-members must be able to view the site so that if they want to purchase images they can view them, but they shouldn't be able to post images at all.
2. We should give some thought as to how to draw in more inquiries from magazines, calendar companies, etc.
3. Would like a way to intermittently shuffle the portfolio page since Page 3 rarely gets seen.
4. The www.naturephotographersonlinemagazine is way too long to easily tell people how to see your images. When you go to the photo portfolios site it is difficult to get to the critque site.
5. Is there any way to be able to tell who is looking at your images so we can fine-tune our portfolio to their needs?
6. Socially, I think that members should be invited or at least notified of regional get togethers, so if they are visiting that area they could also join in the group. One big convention of all NPN members is a huge undertaking and unless several people step up to volunteer it is just too much to take on.
7. I do feel that we could get a few more quality vendors to buy space for advertising if the funds are tight, i.e. B&H, Adorama, Hunts, etc.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 4, 2006 at 8:54 AM
Patricia, thanks for your suggestions! Just a few quick notes in regards to them;
3. You can already do so. Go to Manage Portfolio and then reset thumbnail order.
4. It's actually www.naturephotographers.net, not www.naturephotographersonlinemagazine.net. Easy way to tell people to find the site is to Google "nature photography" (easy phrase to remember) and we're parked in the top spot.
On the bottom of every PhotoPortfolios page, there is a link to "Nature Forums" (NPN).
7. Since NPN is mostly supported by membership dollars, we have avoided "littering" the site with paid commercial ads. The few that do appear are those who support the site in other ways, such as EPA awards or helping to pay for articles.
My reactions to your questions fall somewhere between "if it aint broke, don't fix it" and "belling the cat is a grand idea, but who's going to hang the bell?" I.e., additions, modifications and changes should be made with an eye to sustaining the good points; and, beware of taking on too much without sufficient help or income from the efforts.
As I've read through your comments and reactions in the thread, I suspect I'm lecturing the choir, but I wanted to pull those points to the front.
Here are my quick personal reactions to your original 4 questions:
1. I'd love to see an image gallery that goes "beyond pretty pictures" such as Mark Hobson describes for his landscape photo blog, but in all photo disciplines. Call it "exploratory" photography or whatever, but the point would be to break all the standard rules and see what can emerge. The heck with HDR, Rule of Thirds, framing, etc. Let's get down to some real emotion in the shots. This might prove an ideal camp for folks who are feeling a bit confined an uninspired by all the conventions that have emerged in the standard galleries.
2. I don't know about the engineering or mechanics, but I'm acquainted with ad-laced sites, for which membership lets you access the same pages without ads. Is that possible for your articles? Sock the ads to the visitors while earning you bucks, while ducking the ads would be a valuable "benefit" of membership.
3. The idea of an annual convention is neat, but it inspired my original point about belling the cat. Volunteers are one thing, but answer this philosophical question: "Can you fire a volunteer?" If you rely on volunteers but they drop the ball, the thing still has your name and rep hanging on it. Can you afford the time and/or staff expense to pick the ball back up in the nick of time? My instinct would be to encourage/abett some regional get togethers and with a few of those under your belt, then make the decision about an annual.
4. I'd volunteer to organize and run a session within a larger event, but only if the larger convention was organized and run by its own full time staff.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 4, 2006 at 3:02 PM
Hank, thanks for taking the time to comment!
I agree that it's beneficial to keep an open mind and let our photography evolve down any path we choose. I'm not sure if separate galleries are needed, or even desireable - having everyone share their own style with other open-minded photographers is IMO a good thing, as long as everyone remains respectful and never condescending of other people's tastes or styles.
Commercials ads - I am really determined to keep those things off NPN!
Agreed - mulitple smaller meets would be much more manageable.
Thanks!
Posted by Kent Staubus on October 4, 2006 at 6:28 PM
Internet photo forums serve several purposes:
1. To meet people with similar interests from many different places. The more open NPN is, the more easily it can achieve this. Call it the "social" aspect.
2. Provide a resource for people to ask questions and learn more about specific things, such as the ever popular, "What's the best lens?" Call it the "informational" aspect.
3. Provide a place for meaningful photo critiques. This is where I think NPN could earn some income. By have a corps of knowledgeable and trained staff specifically for critiques, there would be a way to charge a nominal amount for an well thought out and in-depth critique. I'm not aware of any other site that does this. Call it the "unbiased evaluation" aspect.
Quick clarification- I was musing about a single additional gallery, subject-independent, in which the point would be to break rules with your photos. I'm not sure how well even one would work, but like you, can't imagine trying to do it for each genre'. Tim Kingston started an interesting thread about "fashion" in photography, and that discussion is probably doing as much to highlight the topic as would any gallery.
With respect to membership, you would ofcourse just disable either
Non-payers from
a) seeing the first X number of posts on a forum ( they can see the title just not access the thread), or
b) stop them seeing any threads when the starting topic is over 4 days old....
Discussion
41 repliesTo an admitted fault, this has always been my mindset when it comes to NPN. Sure, "if it's not broken, don't fix it." That statement is certainly valid, but IMO we must at least always be thinking of ways to improve. So with that said, I offer the following for your consideration;
1. In terms of value of NPN membership, what can we do better? With image hosting and an online portfolio as the main benefits, what else would be of value to you as part of membership?
2. As a extension of the first question, should NPN articles be for members only? I ask this only because membership dollars pay for these articles. Our editorial budget for 2006 is over $5000, so give this one some thought.
3. Is a yearly NPN convention of interest? There has been discussion of this in the past where a NPN regional group would do the leg work of hosting the convention, and we would hold sponsor-paid seminars and a mini trade show to help defray the costs. I have always liked this idea, but it would take a sizeable group effort to make it happen.
4. As an extension of question 3, would you be willing to volunteer to help organize and run a convention?
I look forward to your responses, and any other ideas you may have. Thanks!
In response to 2, 3 and 4...for members only, probably would not be interested in a convention unless it was close by, and if so I'd be willing to help out.
Not out of line at all to suggest the donations. In fact, we already do this with Images for Conservation Fund - when someone signs up for one of their $100 annual memberships, we offer a free NPN membership when they join from the NPN membership page.
To develop your idea further, we could have several membership options structured in a similiar way for other organizations. For example, if we had a $49 membership of which the extra $10 goes towards such an organization, NPN would contribute $5 on top. So for the $49 spent, the person would be effectively contributing $15 and getting a one year NPN membership on top. A great deal, and certainly a great idea!
Congratulations and best success to you and your family. These are very exciting times that we live in (dangerous, no doubt, but also exciting) and now you can impact those times in ways very unique to yourself.
By way of input from one registered NPN member, perhaps NPN could benefit from some of my own observations
*** I very much appreciate this site. It is intelligent, quiet (somewhat like walking in the woods), informative and helpful. It also seems to be well moderated and civil.
*** I appreciate that the site doesn't devolve into a radical political vehicle . . . or even any other kind of political vehicle.
*** I particularly like that NPN provides a mechanism for sending new forum activity directly to my personal email.
*** I am also a member of Nikonians.org and think that perhaps NPN could benefit from a membership plan somewhat akin to theirs.
*** I find the ease of negotiating this site very "mysterious" -- in other words difficult -- and I am not lightweight when it comes to computer capabilities.
*** I have been for, quite some time considering where to post my pictures and probably the only reason I haven't yet gone forward with choosing NPN is that it is more limiting as to type of pictures that can be posted. I know there is only so much bandwidth available, and bandwidth is expensive, but perhaps it would be nice to have the ability to include a small "Personal" gallery in our NPN Portfolios. It could even serve as a kind of BIO of the Portfolio owner.
*** I might prefer more natural and "organic" colors for the site's layout (as in banners, border colors, etc).
Lastly, I would be interested in contributing to the labor of the site, and I suspect other people might be interested as well.
My very best to you and to NPN
Laurel (Catherine)
I admit I don't spend much (if any) time on other photography websites. If you don't mind, would you care to elaborate on the Nikonian membership plan? Expanding/improving NPN's is a top priortity and I am very open to ideas on how to do so.
I agree that NPN needs to be improved in terms of navigation. I feel the site is now so large that it would be a daunting task, but again I am open to any ideas or suggestions.
I like the idea of a personal photo section for members. This could easily be constructed as a separate gallery on NPN where the photos are not automatically deleted after 35 days, just like the Member Photo gallery. What do you think?
For members, obvious reason. I will try my best to help organize such an event if it is in Germany or around(EU).
I really do believe in the "ain't broke, don't fix it" philosophy. All too often "new & improved" turns out to be neither. I have nothing against positive change, but am 100% against change just for change sake.
RE: NPN articles. IMO, one of the great traits of NPN is that it welcomes visitors and non-members with open arms. I believe this leads to many new members in the long run. I would not like to see NPN become more "exclusive" or to be perceived as such. There's too many snobby "members only" sites out there now.
RE: Convention - sounds like a great idea. I would definitely attend if it happened to be within reasonable driving distance (I don't fly
RE: Contributions to conservation orgs. As great as this sounds it really worries me as well. One of the strongest attractions of NPN is the fact that's it's non-political in nature. For my tastes I would prefer to continue personally donating to the orgs I choose and leave NPN totally non-political. This seems to be one of those paths that, when started upon, it's very difficult to remove one's self from, and the path just seems to get wider and wider as you travel down it. I can't help but think this would some day lead to polarization and political in-fighting within our group over which orgs get supported and which don't. Seen it happen way too many times!!!
RE: Other ideas - any possibilities of coming up with a low cost equipment insurance plan for members. Obviously, this would be optional and cost extra from membership dues. Just a thought...
Fortunately, there's very little broken within NPN, so very little fixing is needed IMO. You're doing a great job - keep it up!!!
Have you considered a central directory of approved workshops as a revenue-generating effort?
How about NPN photographic travel you organize. Many of us are not going to do workshops. but there is probably some demand for some kind of organized travel.
- the website interface is very clumsy IMO. The front page is a nightmare to navigate, and there is no quick login/logout buttons.
- there is wayy too much text for the front page.
(The above two arguments would apply for photoportfolios.net too)
- I find it archaic to have the photoportfolios website separate from NPN. I believe it's being run by the same team, so the separation is un-intuitive to me.
- I find the idea of separately uploading photos for critique in the photo forums in NPN (rather than using the portfolio links from photoportfolios.net) also very clumsy, un-intuitive, and bandwidth intensive.
- People cannot express their opinions on other people's photo portfolios, if and only if the owner of the portfolio posts his/her photos for critique here on NPN. I find that ... for loss of a better word ... wierd.
- on both NPN and photoportfolios.net, there is a lot of repetition of text. For ex., there's text on "About" on the frontpage of photoportfolios.net, and there is a link for more "About". I find this duplication rather cumbersome, and counter-intuitive for a site that's about photographs. There are many such examples.
- The use of photograph/thumbnails and signatures in forum postings takes up almost half the bandwidth! (I'm sure that's one area in which you can make significant bandwidth savings by eliminating the signatures and the signature photos). I find it wierd to keep reading the same thing over and over again in people's signatures - some forum topics have more signature text in them than photos or text in the form of comments.
- Lastly - the size of the thumbnails of the photographs on NPN and Photoportfolios.net is extremely small - I just cannot see what's being shown without seeing each and every photograph in it's original posted dimension. This completely defeats the purpose of having the thumbnails altogether.
- on a related note, I'm sure NPN would do a good job of organising photography treks (not sponsored, but individually conceived, paid for and managed by individual members). Sometimes we just end up getting ripped off by travel trip organisers who aren't photographers anyways and don't seem to understand very well our requirement of making a stop every 1.43 minutes of the trek. :)
Regards,
Ashutosh
2. I think it's a double-edged sword. NPN has a lot of paying members it seems, while on the other hand, having it open to all might help draw in the business. The main selling point of NPN in my opinion is the professionalism of everyone here. Rarely is anything taken personally.
3. I'm not a fan of conventions, but if there was one maybe space would be offered to members to market themselves. And this would be open and marketed to the general photography-buying public.
Another thought was maybe, if NPN had an annual gathering for each forum. Ex. ES&S has a gathering in the Eastern Sierra. Avian has a gathering at Bosque. M&N at a New England fishing village. Flora at Longwood Gardens, etc...
NPN membership, this is a hard one, the main benefits are the portfolio's and editors pick awards. That's fine but if your not interested in them then without a membership you can do everything else, you can read the article the members pay for, you can post images off your own server at the same rate members can and you can read and post in all the forums.mmm Why buy a membership??
Myy suggestion would be to limit what non members can do. But still let them have a feel for the site. Can read the forums but limit which ones they could post in or not post att all ( bit drastic) same as the images forums. Don't want to stop them posting but limit maybe 1 image a week as opposed to members 1 every 48hr or something like that.
Again articles are hard as well, you don't want to not let non members read the articles but maybe only 1 article a month, members can see all.
There has to be more reasons than just the portfolio's and editors pick for a membership and while it would be nice to offer more in the way of giveaways finance would have to support it. more memberships would help in regard so limit what a non member can do.
Just a little on the site
Having been here since almost the begining of NPN most changes that have taken place have been for the better but a few have me wondering. On top of this page highlighted in red is a forum index, click this a pop up comes up with all the forums so you can choose which forum you want, then just above the flagged not is a pop down menu doing the same thing, I hate both of them. One or other would be a good idea or just have a menu down the side of the forum that you don't need a pop window to make work.
As for a yearly convention lets make the first one here in Victoria Australia
Now a couple of things for Ashtosh,,
Some of what you have written I agree with totally, I find the interface a little hard to get around and mention one of things I don't understand. but
Portfolios exsist so people can showcase their best work to a client, it's not there so others can start a discussion on whether they like or dislike someones portfolio. Could you image the amount of discussion that couls end up on the pay. MORE text. When a image is placed in the critque forum it there for discussion. The portfolio section of the site should be seperate as it's not part of the discussion section of NPN. It's there for members to showcase a selection of their work for potental buyers.
Not sure what screen resolution you use but I use 1600x1200 and I can see the thumb nails perfectly. how much bigger shoould they be??
Just a couple of thoughts
BTW, the mechanics of website construction and what constitutes good design is not really the intended topic of this discussion.
But when I make comparisons with other "photography" sites out there, I find the NPN thumbnails too small.
Jim, agreed, I will stay away from the topic of website construction. My software development background just saw those things as possible improvements to be made in order to reduce bandwidth costs.
On the topic of making articles available for non-subscribers, I believe a strategy as that adopted by USENIX would be the right way to go.
USENIX had this strategy of making all articles viewable for paying subscribers only, but only for about a year, after which they were made free for everybody.
The strategy does work IMO. Afterall you want to reward those who have paid you and not those who haven't paid
PS: FYI I discovered NPN after accidentally stumbling upon Darwin Wiggett's 3 year old articles on the internet.
As you know, we have experimented somewhat with limiting non-member benefits in the forums. As others have eluded to, it's tough to take away benefits that are currently offered. But as we continue to build NPN as an organization, new benefits can certainly be designated as "member only."
Finding ways for members to contribute to "worthy causes" without upsetting our non-political atmosphere, organizing regional events, etc. are IMO great suggestions to consider. Through exchanges like this one, we can develop these ideas and determine if they have merit and are worth pursuing.
This is something I had thought about previously but just never followed through with figuring out the mechanics of implementation. I think it's a good idea and would be fair to both paying members and non-members alike. I would need some help and suggestions on the mechanics of making it work.
To me, overall quality of this site is in the top 5 of ones I have visited, and I visit sites all the time.
The one MAIN thing I have always had problems with here is the e-mail replies,
or lack there-of. For many that might pass without notice, but for one who writes for here,
it can make for some major problems.
So I would say maybe you need an extra hand in that area.
As for members only articles, I think that would be the best idea in many ways.
But that alone would not generate more $$$ for more articles.
So, I would maybe think about adding a $5 "benifits" charge on the membership fees in order to get that feature, or something like it. You can always ask on here who would like that idea and if most do, then most would be willing to pay for it, and most new members would probably feel the same. People who don't need it, don't have to pay anything extra, and those who do want it can pay for what they get.
HOWEVER, for this new charge I would assure that there would be a lot more pieces than there are now. Then basically you could just add as many new articles as the extra fees would pay for. The more people willing to pay, the more they get for their money. Should by chance there end up to be extra $$$ even after that, then maybe you can put that to having a monthly contest that has "store" prizes from it.
More benifits usually means more people interested in joining the site.
ADD-ON - - - Why not also do ad banners on this site for more sales income?
Let companies pay most of the extra cost and not the members. That would be an added benifit for joining. I would guess that there are some people on here who can put NPN in touch with companies. I can reach a lot of publishers and manufacturers of photo and digital products. I have tried that in the past for NPN, but gave up after I couldn't get any of those (hint) e-mail replies. Sooner or later you are going to HAVE TO look more to ads anyway. You can only ask members to pay for so much.
I'd be okay with increasing membership fees or adding more for members-only though. One thing I'd like to see is detailed field trip notes. For example, if I'm travelling to White Sands NM, I'd love to have a Guide To The Area from other photographers - not just photographic points of interest, but where to stay, where to eat, what you need to know in advance (e.g., in White Sands case, you need to call ahead to see if the road will be closed), times of year for particular types of photographs, other places along the way that are worth a sidetrip and why, areas not explored...
- - - While I was just making the bed I had another idea.
You just finished a job in sales.
Every company has sales people who get a commission for what they sell.
Just make NPN members sales people.
You offer something like a discount for every member who brings in a paid new member. When they pay their fees, they just fill in a box for who recomended them to this site, and that current member gets the discount from the NPN store. One discount per item.
Somehave suggested limiting posting to non members to once a week. This is a good idea as it will allow a non member to experience the site but not take up a lot of band width without paying. Maybe once a week is too long; perhaps double the standard 48 hours is correct?
Perhaps there could be basic articles available to non members, but thenhave some advanced, more detailed articles for members only??
It would certainly be difficult for NPN to sponsor and organize photography travel. However, maybe there could be NPN member only days or trips organized by existing photographic workshops and travel companies. I realize this is hard to organize, but it might be something the trip/workshop vendors will take on.
All this said, it deserves repeating that I consider my membership a great value "as is".
Daniel, great counterpoint - thanks for posting it!
Pretty cool, eh?
And, you get to choose which way it is! You can change the default setting to either way in your Preferences too! Really cool, I'd say!
my 2 cents ;-)
- I'd leave the articles open to everyone...I discovered NPN years ago when I was searching something about the flash...I found an article on NPN by Joe McDonald on NPN and so I discovered this beautiful website!
- a worldwide NPN meeting would be great...it would be really cool to know by person many friends of NPN...since the majority of members are from US for me it would be OK to make the convetion there, it is a bit distant from my home but it is not a big problem (maybe not this year, but anyway I was already thinking to a trip in the US next year).
I think the extra personal, undeletable, gallery sounds very companionable and could easily strengthen the sense of community in NPN.
I researched, a little, membership scales for various sites and sent the results to you by private email. I was afraid I would be violating some kind of copyright by posting the information publicly.
I also liked Roger Rouch' stab at photo websites as an idea for NPN. I know I have been looking for a place to call home for a website . . . but I wanted it to be spare and elegant and technologically simple . . . I wanted it to be part of a group of photographers that I felt were more serious than just snapshotting . . . and most of all, and perhaps firstly I wanted it to be a site that that brought in a lot of traffic.
It seems like this subject holds some promise for NPN -- kind of like niche marketing in that it isn't something that any other group site has done, to date . . . I don't think anyway), but I am not a programmer and so cannot add anymore detail than just my paltry wish list.
I was recently reading a series of articles by Richard Weisgrau and it was his conclusion that for photographers to survive in this time of diminishing returns, per stock photography, photographers will have to set up their own cooperatives. Perhaps, unconsciously, there is some of this idea in Roger Rouch's post.
Laurel (Catherine)
I think it's more the case that there's so much going on that it's all hard to keep track of. Makes me think a "monthly tip" on the various site features would be a good idea.
If you make it to the U.S., please let us know when and where so we can plan a meeting!
Some of the ideas we are dicussing are entirely software related. As such, any changes made carry the burden of costing NPN the programmer's fee. As I have discovered from first-hand experience, running up huge bills with DTP (Dave The Programmer) is quite easy to do.
PhotoPortfolios is very much part of what we do, and there are several ideas that have been left on the "back burner" since its inception, due to lack of time to develop. One of those ideas is to offer a "premium" service that could include a custom cover page, a few more features and most importantly, active promotion (as opposed to the current "passive" promotion) to photo buyers. This has always been a planned "stage 2" of development, but one that I knew from the beginning could only happen when the time was available to administrate it.
In the past, it's always been a case of "so many good ideas, so little time to do any of them." And after a while, I almost forget about that long list of "good ideas" amidst the rigors of everyday living and trying to hold down a fulltime job. Thanks for bringing this up - I think the time has come to move this one forward!
I've mentioned this before but think it's worth mentioning again. One thing that separates NPN from all other internet forums is the fact that people here use their real names and not some internet pseudonym. It may seem like a little thing, but I believe it creates a sense of civility and accountability not found in places that allow folks to hide in anonymity. Should this be a requirement for membership?
David
I'd be disapointed if the articles were for members only. how would you implement this? If users have to register to see the articles, it'll also mean search engines don't spider those articles. This also means any links included in articles won't be counted in a websites 'incomnig links'. I have written a few, largely for the purposes of getting some links to my sites. If NPN goes this route, it'd be a disincentive to write articles for NPN.
I think pumping up the portfolios site is a good idea.
Cheers
Carl
PhotoPortfolios will take some work to go "stage 2" but should be worth the effort!
David, an excellent point and one I agree with 100%!
1. In my opinion, non-members must be able to view the site so that if they want to purchase images they can view them, but they shouldn't be able to post images at all.
2. We should give some thought as to how to draw in more inquiries from magazines, calendar companies, etc.
3. Would like a way to intermittently shuffle the portfolio page since Page 3 rarely gets seen.
4. The www.naturephotographersonlinemagazine is way too long to easily tell people how to see your images. When you go to the photo portfolios site it is difficult to get to the critque site.
5. Is there any way to be able to tell who is looking at your images so we can fine-tune our portfolio to their needs?
6. Socially, I think that members should be invited or at least notified of regional get togethers, so if they are visiting that area they could also join in the group. One big convention of all NPN members is a huge undertaking and unless several people step up to volunteer it is just too much to take on.
7. I do feel that we could get a few more quality vendors to buy space for advertising if the funds are tight, i.e. B&H, Adorama, Hunts, etc.
3. You can already do so. Go to Manage Portfolio and then reset thumbnail order.
4. It's actually www.naturephotographers.net, not www.naturephotographersonlinemagazine.net. Easy way to tell people to find the site is to Google "nature photography" (easy phrase to remember) and we're parked in the top spot.
On the bottom of every PhotoPortfolios page, there is a link to "Nature Forums" (NPN).
7. Since NPN is mostly supported by membership dollars, we have avoided "littering" the site with paid commercial ads. The few that do appear are those who support the site in other ways, such as EPA awards or helping to pay for articles.
Thanks again for your suggestions!
My reactions to your questions fall somewhere between "if it aint broke, don't fix it" and "belling the cat is a grand idea, but who's going to hang the bell?" I.e., additions, modifications and changes should be made with an eye to sustaining the good points; and, beware of taking on too much without sufficient help or income from the efforts.
As I've read through your comments and reactions in the thread, I suspect I'm lecturing the choir, but I wanted to pull those points to the front.
Here are my quick personal reactions to your original 4 questions:
1. I'd love to see an image gallery that goes "beyond pretty pictures" such as Mark Hobson describes for his landscape photo blog, but in all photo disciplines. Call it "exploratory" photography or whatever, but the point would be to break all the standard rules and see what can emerge. The heck with HDR, Rule of Thirds, framing, etc. Let's get down to some real emotion in the shots. This might prove an ideal camp for folks who are feeling a bit confined an uninspired by all the conventions that have emerged in the standard galleries.
2. I don't know about the engineering or mechanics, but I'm acquainted with ad-laced sites, for which membership lets you access the same pages without ads. Is that possible for your articles? Sock the ads to the visitors while earning you bucks, while ducking the ads would be a valuable "benefit" of membership.
3. The idea of an annual convention is neat, but it inspired my original point about belling the cat. Volunteers are one thing, but answer this philosophical question: "Can you fire a volunteer?" If you rely on volunteers but they drop the ball, the thing still has your name and rep hanging on it. Can you afford the time and/or staff expense to pick the ball back up in the nick of time? My instinct would be to encourage/abett some regional get togethers and with a few of those under your belt, then make the decision about an annual.
4. I'd volunteer to organize and run a session within a larger event, but only if the larger convention was organized and run by its own full time staff.
I agree that it's beneficial to keep an open mind and let our photography evolve down any path we choose. I'm not sure if separate galleries are needed, or even desireable - having everyone share their own style with other open-minded photographers is IMO a good thing, as long as everyone remains respectful and never condescending of other people's tastes or styles.
Commercials ads - I am really determined to keep those things off NPN!
Agreed - mulitple smaller meets would be much more manageable.
Thanks!
1. To meet people with similar interests from many different places. The more open NPN is, the more easily it can achieve this. Call it the "social" aspect.
2. Provide a resource for people to ask questions and learn more about specific things, such as the ever popular, "What's the best lens?"
3. Provide a place for meaningful photo critiques. This is where I think NPN could earn some income. By have a corps of knowledgeable and trained staff specifically for critiques, there would be a way to charge a nominal amount for an well thought out and in-depth critique. I'm not aware of any other site that does this. Call it the "unbiased evaluation" aspect.
Kent in SD
Quick clarification- I was musing about a single additional gallery, subject-independent, in which the point would be to break rules with your photos. I'm not sure how well even one would work, but like you, can't imagine trying to do it for each genre'. Tim Kingston started an interesting thread about "fashion" in photography, and that discussion is probably doing as much to highlight the topic as would any gallery.
Non-payers from
a) seeing the first X number of posts on a forum ( they can see the title just not access the thread), or
b) stop them seeing any threads when the starting topic is over 4 days old....