Posted by Darren White on October 2, 2006 at 10:58 PM
So the printer I am using offers prints from Tiff files not RAW?
I have 2 questions for you (the experts).
1. What is the difference betweent Tiff and RAW and why would I choose to save an image in one format over the other...
2. What do you guys do with all your prints.....I hear you talking about printing this and printing that.....but seriously....do you hang them on your walls or are they being sold? Me, personally I cant see spending so much money on Inks to print my work....so I choose to have someone else do it who give me better quality at half the cost.
thanks for the imput in advance
Darren....still learning!
Posted by Curtis Knight on October 2, 2006 at 11:08 PM
Think of RAW as roughly the digital equivelant of a negative. it's the capture data, and it has to be processed in the "darkroom" aka Photoshop, or whatever photo editing software one is using.
TIFF is simply an output file format that is lossless and uncompressed.
I use PSD simply because I figure the fewer coversion I have to do, the better. I use PSCS to convert. I've tried a couple other conversion prog's and I just don't see the difference, but maybe as I get more experience I'll figure out why folks use third party converters.
Posted by Erik Lundh on October 2, 2006 at 11:24 PM
Darren,
I always save my reworked images as psd files. If I'm going to print the image, I also save it as a tiff. I like to keep the psd file because the layers and adjustments stay intact for further modifcations. I also always save my original unprocessed raw file. As for printing, most of the printing is done for selling. I think I'm speaking for the majority.
Posted by Jim Jirka on October 2, 2006 at 11:36 PM
Darren,
I save my images as tiff's. These will still be usable long after psd files are gone. tiff has been around a long time and as an industry standard is not software dependant. I print to hang on walls. Nobody would pay me for my junk.
Posted by Jeremy Cram on October 2, 2006 at 11:45 PM
^^^yeah right^^^
Posted by John Lehmkuhl on October 2, 2006 at 11:47 PM
I save as PSD files. A TIFF file can't contain layers although I always "flatten" the image of the final image. PSD is a pretty stable standard as well since applications from other companies can open PSD files.
As others said, RAW is the file with no post processing done to it. You have more flexibilty in RAW conversions and can save a "side car" of those enhancements (setting a curve, crop, saturation, shadow settings are all stored OUTSIDE of the RAW file and then Photoshop looks for that file to tell it what settings besides the defaults to use for THAT particular image).
Saving a TIFF will allow you to use all of the tools in Photoshop (LAB, Layers w/masks etc) and save a final version that can be opened anywhere and look the same. RAW converters are very different so sending him your RAW file doesn't mean it will look or print the exact same way it did at your computer.
Posted by Ned Fenimore on October 2, 2006 at 11:53 PM
Like Jim, I agree about the .tiff format.. but I keep the original RAW file of course, then save both a PSD and TIFF with layers intact. I print tons of stuff, both to hang, and also to just look at.
Posted by Doyle Thomas on October 3, 2006 at 12:01 AM
If you can get better quality at half the cost LEMELO! TIFF (tagged image file format) is the industry standard.
Posted by Jim Jirka on October 3, 2006 at 12:53 AM
John: I can save a tiff with layers anytime.
Jeremy: is the comment in reference to tiff files or the fact that I have never sold a photograph to anyone in the 35 years I have been doing this?
The level of passion in "TIFF vs PSD" always fascinates me. I could see either one going away in the proper unlikely scenario. For me I like the convenience of PSD. I am an admitted slave to Photoshop because for me nothing else out there meets my needs (except maybe Lightroom but the jury is still out on that new fangled front). And I really don't see Photoshop going away anytime "soon". A 100 years from now who knows what folks will be using but I bet it will be niether TIFF or PSD! It will most likely be a completely different image format much more mighty than either of the two currently dominant formats.
I say use what makes ya happy. Tomorrow's a new day and somehow we fotografers will make our way through it.
To answer your question Curtis pretty much nailed it. If an image is awesomely perfect right out of the camera then go ahead and send the RAW image. Otherwise do your post processing in the image editor of your choice and send a TIFF.
I'm an old school recovering wet darkroom kinda guy who also got bit by the computing bug at an early age (I work in computing @ Boeing to pay the mortgage) so I REALLY enjoy doing my own printing on our Epson 4800. I have a real hard time letting someone else do my printing for me... Deep inside I guess I really am a bit of a control freak eh??!!
Anyway I'm rambling like a fool so I'll cut it short here. I hope this musing of mine and others has helped you Darren. Keep the questions coming - it's how we all learn eh?!
There really is no passion, just giving my opinion and why i use tiff.
Posted by Rod Barbee on October 3, 2006 at 4:08 PM
Most commercial printers (Fuji, Noritsu, etc) need either TIFF or JPG. So somewhere along the line, any raw files will have to be converted. Personally, I wouldn't want a lab technician doing this for me.
PSD or TIFF? Personal choice. I heard somewhere that PSD files open faster in Photoshop. Haven't tested that out though.
Posted by Darren White on October 3, 2006 at 7:30 PM
Wow....thanks for the responses.......my brain is kind of jumbled right now....
1st..I have no idea what PSD is??? I am a paint shop pro kind of guy cause I cant figure out Lightroom and I am not willing to pay 600 dollars for CS2....
2nd....then why did Nikon change from Tiff in the earlier cameras to Raw in the newer ones?
Hmm....ok....I think Ill just got shoot pictures.... and for those of you looking for a good printer.... (I understand that some of you are control freaks and want to do your own work and thats totally fine ) I have been more then happy with www.mpix.com
Thanks again for all the advice...I will start saving my master images as TIFFs
Darren
Posted by Rod Barbee on October 4, 2006 at 1:23 AM
PSD is the native Photoshop format. If you don't have PS, then nevermind...
Nikon's digital SLRs have always had RAW (NEF). TIFF files are huge so that's probably why they no longer have them.
FYI, if you want to get into the Photoshop world, get Elements. It has just about everything you need at a fraction of the cost. I haven't played with it since version 3 so I don't really know what improvements there are. I've heard v5 has curves and can do some colorspace conversions.
But if PSP is working for you and you're happy with the results, stick with it.
Posted by Curtis Knight on October 4, 2006 at 10:49 AM
I do a lot of my own 8x10's because that's all my epson 880 will do. well, they're actually 10x6something because as a rule, I prefer a 3:2 full frame over the square look of an 8x10. The 880 does a VERY NICE job when I use quality papers. Marie likes to hang these around the house, take them to work and show them off, and I have a few prints that get passed around at work.
When I can afford a 7800 like Mark and Mahesh, I'll get one, but untill then... well, I'll be mailing a lot of CD's to the Hood River Coffee Company!
Jim J, I can't believe you've never sold a print!??? Selling them must not be a priority for you...
The reason for RAW capture over TIFF in cameras is that RAW gives you much more data to work with. Adjusting color or value in a TIFF will squash and stretch the overall range. A RAW file has more data than you need, darker blacks and whiter whites than can be displayed. So, converting a RAW allows you to pick a range from a sliding scale.
If you send a RAW file the printer will probably use the camera's default exposure settings.
TIFF and PSD are both loss-less. If you need smaller files, LYZ compression under the TIFF save settings is a loss-less scheme which won't effect your image, unlike JPEG. Not sure if PSP has that option.
About loading times - Photoshop 7 was really fast. Ever since CS1 it's gotten much slower because Photoshop is scanning for "bad" things like digital watermarks or counterfeit money (don't recall which).
Discussion
15 repliesI have 2 questions for you (the experts).
1. What is the difference betweent Tiff and RAW and why would I choose to save an image in one format over the other...
2. What do you guys do with all your prints.....I hear you talking about printing this and printing that.....but seriously....do you hang them on your walls or are they being sold? Me, personally I cant see spending so much money on Inks to print my work....so I choose to have someone else do it who give me better quality at half the cost.
thanks for the imput in advance
Darren....still learning!
TIFF is simply an output file format that is lossless and uncompressed.
I use PSD simply because I figure the fewer coversion I have to do, the better. I use PSCS to convert. I've tried a couple other conversion prog's and I just don't see the difference, but maybe as I get more experience I'll figure out why folks use third party converters.
I always save my reworked images as psd files. If I'm going to print the image, I also save it as a tiff. I like to keep the psd file because the layers and adjustments stay intact for further modifcations. I also always save my original unprocessed raw file. As for printing, most of the printing is done for selling. I think I'm speaking for the majority.
I save my images as tiff's. These will still be usable long after psd files are gone. tiff has been around a long time and as an industry standard is not software dependant. I print to hang on walls. Nobody would pay me for my junk.
As others said, RAW is the file with no post processing done to it. You have more flexibilty in RAW conversions and can save a "side car" of those enhancements (setting a curve, crop, saturation, shadow settings are all stored OUTSIDE of the RAW file and then Photoshop looks for that file to tell it what settings besides the defaults to use for THAT particular image).
Saving a TIFF will allow you to use all of the tools in Photoshop (LAB, Layers w/masks etc) and save a final version that can be opened anywhere and look the same. RAW converters are very different so sending him your RAW file doesn't mean it will look or print the exact same way it did at your computer.
Jeremy: is the comment in reference to tiff files or the fact that I have never sold a photograph to anyone in the 35 years I have been doing this?
I say use what makes ya happy. Tomorrow's a new day and somehow we fotografers will make our way through it.
To answer your question Curtis pretty much nailed it. If an image is awesomely perfect right out of the camera then go ahead and send the RAW image. Otherwise do your post processing in the image editor of your choice and send a TIFF.
I'm an old school recovering wet darkroom kinda guy who also got bit by the computing bug at an early age (I work in computing @ Boeing to pay the mortgage) so I REALLY enjoy doing my own printing on our Epson 4800. I have a real hard time letting someone else do my printing for me... Deep inside I guess I really am a bit of a control freak eh??!!
Anyway I'm rambling like a fool so I'll cut it short here. I hope this musing of mine and others has helped you Darren. Keep the questions coming - it's how we all learn eh?!
PSD or TIFF? Personal choice. I heard somewhere that PSD files open faster in Photoshop. Haven't tested that out though.
1st..I have no idea what PSD is??? I am a paint shop pro kind of guy cause I cant figure out Lightroom and I am not willing to pay 600 dollars for CS2....
2nd....then why did Nikon change from Tiff in the earlier cameras to Raw in the newer ones?
Hmm....ok....I think Ill just got shoot pictures.... and for those of you looking for a good printer.... (I understand that some of you are control freaks and want to do your own work and thats totally fine
Thanks again for all the advice...I will start saving my master images as TIFFs
Darren
Nikon's digital SLRs have always had RAW (NEF). TIFF files are huge so that's probably why they no longer have them.
FYI, if you want to get into the Photoshop world, get Elements. It has just about everything you need at a fraction of the cost. I haven't played with it since version 3 so I don't really know what improvements there are. I've heard v5 has curves and can do some colorspace conversions.
But if PSP is working for you and you're happy with the results, stick with it.
When I can afford a 7800 like Mark and Mahesh, I'll get one, but untill then... well, I'll be mailing a lot of CD's to the Hood River Coffee Company!
Jim J, I can't believe you've never sold a print!??? Selling them must not be a priority for you...
If you send a RAW file the printer will probably use the camera's default exposure settings.
TIFF and PSD are both loss-less. If you need smaller files, LYZ compression under the TIFF save settings is a loss-less scheme which won't effect your image, unlike JPEG. Not sure if PSP has that option.
About loading times - Photoshop 7 was really fast. Ever since CS1 it's gotten much slower because Photoshop is scanning for "bad" things like digital watermarks or counterfeit money (don't recall which).