Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 9, 2006 at 12:47 PM
Some of the recent discussions on the "truth" a photo may or may not depict has led me to think that perhaps we should more actively dicuss and promote "environmental photojournalism." At first, I thought this would be a good additon for the Man & Nature gallery, but perhaps it deserves a gallery of its own.
What are your thoughts on this subject? Should NPN play a role in "cultivating the next crop" of enviromental photojournalists? If so, would creating a gallery just for that type of photo be a good way to get started?
Hi Jim,
the idea is interesting, but I'm not sure if it is a good choice to create a new gallery...Man and Nature is already much smaller than other galleries, as landscapes, and "splitting" it into two galleries would make it even smaller, with the risk of few post and few comments, as the Photo Series gallery, that was a cool idea but now it has ten post and an average of two comments per post :-/
Just my 2 cents ;-)
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 9, 2006 at 1:38 PM
Juza, I had thought the same, but when it comes to making a weekly pick, would an EPJ (environmental photojournalism) shot be selected over some of the outstanding photos currently being posted in M&N?
Just thinking out loud...
Posted by Rick Lundh on October 9, 2006 at 2:52 PM
Jim,
Interesting idea and you could always give her a try and pull it if it doesn't work after 3 months or whatever. I might add me .01 cents.
I think it may not be the best idea to create this kind of gallery. What is it really saying anyway? "This is an average photo gallery" or "this doesn't have quite the manipulations" or "the light isn't really all that great in this one"... It would be hard to police which images should be in which gallery. The border there is fairly grey and might cause some ill or hurt feelings...
A landscape photo is a landscape photo is a landscape photo in my book. Some just natually have the appeal and attention of the crowd due to lighting/weather/etc. I dont think adding this type of gallery would boost participation...
Hope this helps and doesn't sound too negative.
It would be worthwhile clarifying or defining environmental photojournalism before attempting the gallery, Jim. I suspect the term means very different things to each of us. For example, if I read Rick accurately he's including landscape photos WITH problems, while I see it more as landscape photos ABOUT problems. I.e., using all our best landscape skills to illustrate environmental problems. That's a worthy goal in my book, and something all of us should do more of. If a new gallery and the attendant feedback could help those of interested to hone our skills, it would be very worthwhile.
Posted by Rick Lundh on October 9, 2006 at 3:49 PM
ahhh...good point Hank. You were correct.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 9, 2006 at 4:53 PM
For example, if I read Rick accurately he's including landscape photos WITH problems, while I see it more as landscape photos ABOUT problems. I.e., using all our best landscape skills to illustrate environmental problems. That's a worthy goal in my book, and something all of us should do more of.
Yes. I think Hank and I were born with some kind of telepathic connection - yet another example of him understanding my thinking!
Posted by Rick Lundh on October 9, 2006 at 5:09 PM
A worthy cause indeed, but I dont think it would have any more participation than the photo series. I think there would be a burst at first, but then as everyone posted their backdated images, it would die down...in my opinion.
If the goal is to raise awareness of the problem, then perhaps a mission statement or special section in your mag, dedicated to the issue would be more fruitful.
We do need to raise awareness of taking care of our mother earth, especially to us new and old field fotografers who are out there all the time. Some of them being over zealous to get the perfect comp while trampling fragile vegitation. I've seen the after effects and it really pissed me off.
Combining it with M&N would work, especially since it is man who is doing the damamge.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 9, 2006 at 5:31 PM
We do need to raise awareness of taking care of our mother earth, especially to us new and old field fotografers who are out there all the time.
I agree! That's why I wonder if creating a forum for it may be a way to generate more interest in pursuing that kind of shot. Because it is such a worthy cause, perhaps it would catch on better than the PS gallery did.
Posted by Richard Wong on October 9, 2006 at 6:08 PM
"Snow Geese in Marsh near Power Plant, Sonny Bono Salton Sea National Wildlife Refuge, California - 2005"
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 9, 2006 at 7:08 PM
I think we have the first submission for the proposed EPJ gallery!
Posted by Steve Foss on October 9, 2006 at 7:21 PM
Jim, I took it exactly the way Hank took it, and Richard's photo is a perfect example of one type of enviornmental photojournalism, which I interpret to be an activist's medium. I used to work for Clean Water Action in Minneapolis, and this is a subject that has always moved me. It also is open to many different styles of shooting. Some images hit you right over the head with environmental degradation, while others contain a more subtle message. I agree that a separate gallery may get an initial burst and then be lightly used thereafter, but if your goal is to bring such photojournalism to the forefront a bit, then I reckon you'll continue to promote it and invite submissions. Most things take awhile to catch on, and that includes worthwhile things.
And this IS worthwhile. You can spend your life working for world peace or to save abused dogs and cats or simply to make yourself a better person, but if a man or woman is going to be an activist about something, this is the most important something. After all, if we turn the planet into a place that can't support human life, not one of those other causes is going to matter. In other words, if the house is caving in, who cares what color we want to paint the living room?
Posted by Carl Donohue on October 9, 2006 at 8:27 PM
Hey Jim,
I think it's an important idea to explore - but I wonder if it isn't maybe more valuable to integrate the concept into the existnig forums. Lori seemed to point to this in her other thread - that maybe our focus on 'nature photography' is so fragmented that we do a disservice to a greater import? Even Rick's initial response seemed to point to this, indirectly; that 'photojournalism' is automatically pigeon-holed as something "other" - and, once judged that way, is weighed or valued differently. Wouldn't it be a worthwhile pursuit to learn to value the 2 equally, and maybe even come to see their parameters as somewhat transparent and permeable?
Cheers
Carl
Posted by Richard Wong on October 9, 2006 at 10:37 PM
I think the difference in having a separate forum for this type of subject is how to approach the comments. Rather than aesthetics, the focus would be on what message it conveys, suggestions on how / where it could be used, and so on... It would also give NPN another angle to promote.
Posted by Kent Staubus on October 9, 2006 at 11:29 PM
The problem I see is that there are so many POV's about what an "environmental" photo might be, and often these discussions can quickly become contentious. Then there is the subjective factor. I once went to a photographer's public showing in Kansas City of his series of shots of an abandoned oil refinery (Sugar Creek.) He was there and asked me what I thought. I told him I thought the images showed a beauty in a place the "unartistic" would call "ugly." I liked the surrealist rainbow hues caused by petroleum film on puddles, and the stark lines of the old piping and structures. It turned out he was one of the more radical type environmentalists that believed we should all be riding bikes everywhere or something, and was aghast I had seen beauty in his shots. How was I supposed to know?
Kent in SD
Posted by Bob Steele on October 10, 2006 at 12:25 AM
I don't really have a dog in this fight, but do have a bone to pick with Richard's posted photo. The plant shown in the image is geothermal, and the plumes rising from the stack are steam. Since I sincerely doubt that all of us are willing to give up our electricity, it has to come from somewhere. While geothermal has it's share of problems, it's a hell of a lot cleaner than the implications of this image.
Posted by Jim Goldstein on October 10, 2006 at 2:22 AM
Just to throw my two cents in... I'm for it. I'd like to also add that not all environmental photojournalism images need to be a downer. There are great stories out there that show the balance of man and nature. I hope that is taken into account in defining the forum. I see great potential in this.
To be brutally honest... I don't think people are going to want to look at power plants, oil slicks, etc. Although the purpose is worthy, I don't think the impact will be great, especially if the images are isolated in their own category. There isn't enough time to view all the categories now. Another problem in putting these in a critique forum is they could be technically perfect, but just what do you say about such an image. I enjoy viewing the beauty in this world, because of the ugliness that surrounds each of us on a daily basis.
In sum, if someone has an article, it would be read... but a separate category would probably not get the traffic needed to change anything. This is a NATURE forum and its viewers want to see nature.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 10, 2006 at 8:28 AM
Perhaps the next step in ascertaining whether this is worth pursuing is to define the goal of doing so.
Let me start off by saying that NPN will always remain a place for those who simply wish to enjoy nature photography. By keeping contentious discussion out of the forums and only allowing discussion that relates directly to nature photography we have been quite successful at keeping NPN that way.
But at the same time, totally avoiding discussion that could be contentious but yet benefical in some other way may not be the most responsible way to handle it. While the Hot Topics forum is not exactly bustling with activity, it does host some good conversation that may not have otherwise happened on NPN. Having it in a separate forum keeps it "contained" so those who come here to get away from just such talk can still do so. And IMO, just because a forum may not have a lot of activity does not necessarily mean that it's not worth trying - or holding on to.
As has always been the case, our goal is not to turn NPN into an "activist" organization, but to help nature photographers improve on their craft - regardless of which genre of nature photography they pursue.
My main fear of integrating this into the Man & Nature gallery is that it's doing extremely well as is. Sure, we could use more comments on the photos but the display of photography in that forum is as good as any of the other galleries on NPN. Also bear in mind that the M&N gallery is intended for "landscape" photos that contain HOM and is now the third most popular gallery on NPN, behind ESS and Avian.
So with that in mind;
1. I still believe that a separate EPJ forum has merit and is worth considering because at the very least, it will lend credibility to that form of nature photography and perhaps raise our collective interest in it.
2. The purpose of the forum would be to discuss the impact and effectiveness of the photos, not the political issues depicted by the photo.
3. Photos of both the "bad" and the "good" could be posted.
If you want to see one professional photographer's take on 'environmental' and photojournalism, then look no further than one of NPN's own columnists - Niall Benvie. Take a look back through his articles, and you will see an underlying theme in many of them - how to tell a story (or make a point) about nature and people, with supporting pictures. Sure, some of his photos are pretty, others aren't. Most are a mixture of people, wildlife and places ... not exclusively pretty wildlife.
As photographers, EPJ is an aspect that we tend to ignore and push to one side in our search for the so-called 'eco-porn' or 'eye-candy' of pretty pictures. An EPJ forum would be a great idea Jim, sure it may be slow moving - finding a continous stream or body of pictures to post would be a challenge for most of us. But personally, i think it would be an interesting forum to watch develop
I like your clarifications Jim, and I'm curious to see how others react. In my experience this type of photography is one of the most difficult to do well. Robert Glen Ketchum has quite a knack for riding the line between documentary and art in this genre.
I've shot a fair bit for local editorial use, and I can get away with quite a bit because viewers are already familiar with the setting. Get low, shoot wide, and dominate the foreground with the problem while showing familiar landmarks in the background (or visa versa). It's effective photography, if not memorable or "artisitic," especially as the audience expands beyond the local market.
I'd like to improve my shots for use beyond local markets. I NEED feedback and reviews from folks far away, simply to find the techniques that resonate with larger audiences. An EPJ gallery with lots of examples, broad geographic spread, and especially thoughtful reviews and conversation will be valuable for anyone trying to refine their work. It would only take a handful of interested and creative people to make it work, and work it would, even if it never garnered huge numbers of views and comments. I'm more interested in thorough reviews and thoughful comments than back pats or pans.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on October 10, 2006 at 12:16 PM
It would only take a handful of interested and creative people to make it work, and work it would, even if it never garnered huge numbers of views and comments.
My feelings exactly!
OK, so if an EPJ gallery was to come to fruition, we do have anyone interested in helping to moderate it?
Posted by Tom Webster on October 10, 2006 at 2:19 PM
Hi y'all,
Let me throw my concerns in here...
I'd like to improve my shots for use beyond local markets. I NEED feedback and reviews from folks far away, simply to find the techniques that resonate with larger audiences. An EPJ gallery with lots of examples, broad geographic spread, and especially thoughtful reviews and conversation will be valuable for anyone trying to refine their work. It would only take a handful of interested and creative people to make it work, and work it would, even if it never garnered huge numbers of views and comments. I'm more interested in thorough reviews and thoughful comments than back pats or pans.
I'm not sure the results would be as you expect, Hank. I think relying on an audience of nature/outdoor photographers would be like "preaching to the choir". Those of us who venture to the woods to make our images are already familiar with environmental issues. We could critique a photograph but then what? I'm not sure our critiques would be as valuable feedback than if an EPJ gallery were to be located in a more general web site visited by people unaware of environmental issues. Let's face it, the majority of visitors and members are photographers. We'd all be just sitting around sharing some common gripes and making nice images ofthem.
I think an EPJ gallery would have its greatest effect situated on a more generalized nature web site that would reach more viewers with more varied interests than just photographers. If the Nature Conservancy, or the National Audubon Society, were to run a forum, I could see EPJ fitting better there than on NPN. Sites like these would have a far better chance of effecting some sort of outcome from an EPJ gallery than would NPN, IMO.
Actually Tom, you help make my point about what I'm looking for.
I wouldn't be posting at NPN to try to get people to act on the problems, rather to help me make the photos better in anticipation of using them at activist sites like NC or NAS, as well as in print. To this point I've been reliant on my viewers' familiarity with local scenes, but I'm interested now in reaching broader audiences about issues not specific to my localle. If I could illustrate ATV abuse in my local area in such a way that viewers far away related it to theirs or in nationaly familiar landscapes, that would be reason enough for me to work with the reviewers at an EPJ gallery to refine my techniques and vision. Comments like "shoot lower" or "try moving left or right" or "what about shooting early or late to stretch the shadows" would be invaluable, while comments along the lines of "aint it a shame" or "this would be a great shot if you framed/cloned out all that trash" wouldn't be any different than what is already available on conventional galleries.
Call an NPN EPJ gallery a "quick stop" before submitting to the general public, but I think review and advice from other photographers would go a very long ways towards improving our photos and hopefully having more impact when we move the issues on to a broader audience.
And yest Jim, I'm willing to help moderate within the limits of my time and my miserable #$%!%!@#%!@# 12k dialup connection! I'll contact you offline.
Posted by Steve Foss on October 10, 2006 at 7:11 PM
Well, as I said before, I'm for it, and after Jim's clarifications, I'm still for it. We're all out there seeking beauty anyway. As nature photographers we're conditioned to be detailed observers and lovers of the environment. And capturing an image that shows the urgency of the problem makes it more pointed both to us and to those who see the image. Who better to document the deterioration than we are? Hank mentions ATV abuse, and I'm familiar with areas where rutted illegal ATV trails deface black spruce/tamarack bogs up here in the BWCAW and national forests so badly that those sensitive, slow growing environments won't recover in our lifetime. EPJ is also another market, one that most of us here don't explore, and if there are those among you who don't need another market, well, God love you. I'll take the additional revenue streams.
It also is a kick in the pants for me to get out there and do more of that type of photography. Since I'm a newspaperman and PJ already, it's made to order, and I tend to fill our outdoors pages (which I design) with my own images of wilderness scenes and wildlife. That's popular, for sure, but lacks the hard-edged message that EPJ provides. It will be nice to have a forum to display that work and get and give feedback about it.
I'd offer myself up for helping moderate it, but I'm pretty new to NPN and already moderate on another Web forum.
Discussion
25 repliesWhat are your thoughts on this subject? Should NPN play a role in "cultivating the next crop" of enviromental photojournalists? If so, would creating a gallery just for that type of photo be a good way to get started?
As always, your thoughts are appreciated.
the idea is interesting, but I'm not sure if it is a good choice to create a new gallery...Man and Nature is already much smaller than other galleries, as landscapes, and "splitting" it into two galleries would make it even smaller, with the risk of few post and few comments, as the Photo Series gallery, that was a cool idea but now it has ten post and an average of two comments per post :-/
Just my 2 cents ;-)
Just thinking out loud...
Interesting idea and you could always give her a try and pull it if it doesn't work after 3 months or whatever. I might add me .01 cents.
I think it may not be the best idea to create this kind of gallery. What is it really saying anyway? "This is an average photo gallery" or "this doesn't have quite the manipulations" or "the light isn't really all that great in this one"... It would be hard to police which images should be in which gallery. The border there is fairly grey and might cause some ill or hurt feelings...
A landscape photo is a landscape photo is a landscape photo in my book. Some just natually have the appeal and attention of the crowd due to lighting/weather/etc. I dont think adding this type of gallery would boost participation...
Hope this helps and doesn't sound too negative.
Yes. I think Hank and I were born with some kind of telepathic connection - yet another example of him understanding my thinking!
If the goal is to raise awareness of the problem, then perhaps a mission statement or special section in your mag, dedicated to the issue would be more fruitful.
We do need to raise awareness of taking care of our mother earth, especially to us new and old field fotografers who are out there all the time. Some of them being over zealous to get the perfect comp while trampling fragile vegitation. I've seen the after effects and it really pissed me off.
Combining it with M&N would work, especially since it is man who is doing the damamge.
I agree! That's why I wonder if creating a forum for it may be a way to generate more interest in pursuing that kind of shot. Because it is such a worthy cause, perhaps it would catch on better than the PS gallery did.
And this IS worthwhile. You can spend your life working for world peace or to save abused dogs and cats or simply to make yourself a better person, but if a man or woman is going to be an activist about something, this is the most important something. After all, if we turn the planet into a place that can't support human life, not one of those other causes is going to matter. In other words, if the house is caving in, who cares what color we want to paint the living room?
I think it's an important idea to explore - but I wonder if it isn't maybe more valuable to integrate the concept into the existnig forums. Lori seemed to point to this in her other thread - that maybe our focus on 'nature photography' is so fragmented that we do a disservice to a greater import? Even Rick's initial response seemed to point to this, indirectly; that 'photojournalism' is automatically pigeon-holed as something "other" - and, once judged that way, is weighed or valued differently. Wouldn't it be a worthwhile pursuit to learn to value the 2 equally, and maybe even come to see their parameters as somewhat transparent and permeable?
Cheers
Carl
Kent in SD
In sum, if someone has an article, it would be read... but a separate category would probably not get the traffic needed to change anything. This is a NATURE forum and its viewers want to see nature.
Let me start off by saying that NPN will always remain a place for those who simply wish to enjoy nature photography. By keeping contentious discussion out of the forums and only allowing discussion that relates directly to nature photography we have been quite successful at keeping NPN that way.
But at the same time, totally avoiding discussion that could be contentious but yet benefical in some other way may not be the most responsible way to handle it. While the Hot Topics forum is not exactly bustling with activity, it does host some good conversation that may not have otherwise happened on NPN. Having it in a separate forum keeps it "contained" so those who come here to get away from just such talk can still do so. And IMO, just because a forum may not have a lot of activity does not necessarily mean that it's not worth trying - or holding on to.
As has always been the case, our goal is not to turn NPN into an "activist" organization, but to help nature photographers improve on their craft - regardless of which genre of nature photography they pursue.
My main fear of integrating this into the Man & Nature gallery is that it's doing extremely well as is. Sure, we could use more comments on the photos but the display of photography in that forum is as good as any of the other galleries on NPN. Also bear in mind that the M&N gallery is intended for "landscape" photos that contain HOM and is now the third most popular gallery on NPN, behind ESS and Avian.
So with that in mind;
1. I still believe that a separate EPJ forum has merit and is worth considering because at the very least, it will lend credibility to that form of nature photography and perhaps raise our collective interest in it.
2. The purpose of the forum would be to discuss the impact and effectiveness of the photos, not the political issues depicted by the photo.
3. Photos of both the "bad" and the "good" could be posted.
Let's keep kicking this idea around a bit more!
As photographers, EPJ is an aspect that we tend to ignore and push to one side in our search for the so-called 'eco-porn' or 'eye-candy' of pretty pictures. An EPJ forum would be a great idea Jim, sure it may be slow moving - finding a continous stream or body of pictures to post would be a challenge for most of us. But personally, i think it would be an interesting forum to watch develop
I've shot a fair bit for local editorial use, and I can get away with quite a bit because viewers are already familiar with the setting. Get low, shoot wide, and dominate the foreground with the problem while showing familiar landmarks in the background (or visa versa). It's effective photography, if not memorable or "artisitic," especially as the audience expands beyond the local market.
I'd like to improve my shots for use beyond local markets. I NEED feedback and reviews from folks far away, simply to find the techniques that resonate with larger audiences. An EPJ gallery with lots of examples, broad geographic spread, and especially thoughtful reviews and conversation will be valuable for anyone trying to refine their work. It would only take a handful of interested and creative people to make it work, and work it would, even if it never garnered huge numbers of views and comments. I'm more interested in thorough reviews and thoughful comments than back pats or pans.
My feelings exactly!
OK, so if an EPJ gallery was to come to fruition, we do have anyone interested in helping to moderate it?
Let me throw my concerns in here...
I'm not sure the results would be as you expect, Hank. I think relying on an audience of nature/outdoor photographers would be like "preaching to the choir". Those of us who venture to the woods to make our images are already familiar with environmental issues. We could critique a photograph but then what? I'm not sure our critiques would be as valuable feedback than if an EPJ gallery were to be located in a more general web site visited by people unaware of environmental issues. Let's face it, the majority of visitors and members are photographers. We'd all be just sitting around sharing some common gripes and making nice images ofthem.
I think an EPJ gallery would have its greatest effect situated on a more generalized nature web site that would reach more viewers with more varied interests than just photographers. If the Nature Conservancy, or the National Audubon Society, were to run a forum, I could see EPJ fitting better there than on NPN. Sites like these would have a far better chance of effecting some sort of outcome from an EPJ gallery than would NPN, IMO.
Just my 2 cents...
I wouldn't be posting at NPN to try to get people to act on the problems, rather to help me make the photos better in anticipation of using them at activist sites like NC or NAS, as well as in print. To this point I've been reliant on my viewers' familiarity with local scenes, but I'm interested now in reaching broader audiences about issues not specific to my localle. If I could illustrate ATV abuse in my local area in such a way that viewers far away related it to theirs or in nationaly familiar landscapes, that would be reason enough for me to work with the reviewers at an EPJ gallery to refine my techniques and vision. Comments like "shoot lower" or "try moving left or right" or "what about shooting early or late to stretch the shadows" would be invaluable, while comments along the lines of "aint it a shame" or "this would be a great shot if you framed/cloned out all that trash" wouldn't be any different than what is already available on conventional galleries.
Call an NPN EPJ gallery a "quick stop" before submitting to the general public, but I think review and advice from other photographers would go a very long ways towards improving our photos and hopefully having more impact when we move the issues on to a broader audience.
And yest Jim, I'm willing to help moderate within the limits of my time and my miserable #$%!%!@#%!@# 12k dialup connection! I'll contact you offline.
It also is a kick in the pants for me to get out there and do more of that type of photography. Since I'm a newspaperman and PJ already, it's made to order, and I tend to fill our outdoors pages (which I design) with my own images of wilderness scenes and wildlife. That's popular, for sure, but lacks the hard-edged message that EPJ provides. It will be nice to have a forum to display that work and get and give feedback about it.
I'd offer myself up for helping moderate it, but I'm pretty new to NPN and already moderate on another Web forum.