Posted by Youssef Ismail on November 30, 2006 at 1:54 AM
I am just wondering how many of you have ever taken a photography workshop? Was it a field workshop? A studio workshop? Was it worth your time and money? What made you pick the workshop you attended?
I have, and it was a lack-of-knowledge driven reason, chosen out of convience of location and budgetry constraints.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on November 30, 2006 at 9:08 AM
I have done two or three. The best one was Danny Burk's Intro to 4x5, which did a lot for solidifying my knowledge of LF cameras and how to use them. I also did a trial run of his Intro to Photoshop workshops. It was a highly abridged weekend version of his 5 day class and got a lot out of it even though I was using Elements at the time. Both courses are highly recommended - here is a link:
I also did a half day intro to zoo photography on a whim, which was run out of the Toledo zoo (and NOT! by Danny). I was less impressed.
Posted by Grace Blair on November 30, 2006 at 9:24 AM
I attended an instructional photo tour to the Galapagos Is last summer. The birds and wildlife were fantastic, but there was NO instruction and the leader was extremely rude and inconsiderate to everyone. Most of us felt as if we were along on the trip only to subsidize the instructor's need to go there to get publishable photos. I believe that all eleven of us were very disappointed. I intend to attend a workshop led by someone else in the spring of 2007, as I REALLY would like to learn more techniques from someone who is willing to impart some knowledge.
Posted by Danny Burk on November 30, 2006 at 9:58 AM
Thanks for the good words, Dan - much appreciated!
Posted by Kent Staubus on November 30, 2006 at 10:34 AM
I only did one, several years ago. I felt like I had basically paid a guy $400 to wander around Yellowstone for a day with 8 others while he mostly took photos for his own use. I was not happy! If I were to do another one of these, I would look at the following: instructor doesn't even bring his own camera so he can concentrate on helping people, and selecting someone who actually LIVES in the area rather than an outsider. I don't feel any need to take a "general" workshop but might be interested in something very specific. Spending a day with Guy, Danny, Micheal etc. better learning how to use 4x5 movements wandering on their home turf appeals to me. I also know I desparately need a PS course of some kind, but would rather do that where I live (although options are few in my small city.)
I'm with you 100% on instructor shooting Kent. They can do it before and after the workshop, but I'll be darned if I'll let them use my money and time to support their field trips.
In general terms, the more specific your needs the easier it is to find the right workshop and instructor. Could be location, technique or gear specific, but spell out what you are looking for beforehand and use that to filter your choices.
I finalize my choices this way before slapping cash: I contact the instructor and ask for a syllabus and class schedule. I also ask for names and contact info for references if the instructor is unknown to me. I also Google the heck out of the instructor. Then I follow up on all that. If the "instructor" is so disorganized that a syllabus and schedule aren't available, that's a sign. If references are "unavailable" that's another sign.
There are some incredible workshops and instructors out there. There are some real ripoffs out there, too. The hard part is sorting one from the other.
Posted by Guy Tal on November 30, 2006 at 11:34 AM
Word of mouth is the best advertising. A recommendation from a trustworthy source is worth a thousand ads.
Also be sure to ask the instructor about their operating permits and insurance. You'd be surprised how many operators decide to take a risk and haul a group of people outdoors without the proper authority and insurance should anything go wrong.
After reviewing your website, I doubt that you need any instruction. Most should be learning from you! For those who are reading this and are not as accomplished, may I suggest that you check with your local/state camera clubs for daily seminars with prominent speakers. The New England Camera Club Council has a 3-day weekend (held at UMASS in Amherst, MA) of seminars and instructional forums each July that is very reasonably priced and attended by over 1,200 photo enthusiasts each year. Well worth the price just in gathering new ideas and techniques as well as renewing friendships. Also, the regional sites on NPN have gatherings that take you places you have never been with accomplished NPN photographers who are willing to share techniques at a cost of gas and a hotel room.
I have yet to attend a workshop. I would like to do so; especilly one that deals in large format photography. Although I am reasonbly skilled with a view camera, I am always open to new ideas, new techniques, and refinement of the skills I already possess.
One of my main concerns, along with the others that have already been mentioned, is the instructor-to-student ratio. I have observed field workshops where there was a single instructor for nearly twenty students! I have to wonder if the students really got their money's worth and came away with positive learning outcomes?
So, one of the things I would ask a potential instructor is what the maximum class size would be, and also if he/she would have skilled adjunct instructors to help out. If the ratio was greater than one-to-seven in a 'field' workshop, I would probably look elsewhere.
-PB
Posted by Youssef Ismail on November 30, 2006 at 1:25 PM
I posted this just to get an idea of what people want out of a workshop. When I attended a workshop years ago, I picked the best photographer I could find, based on the quality of the work and where they were teaching. I was happy with what I got.
The way I conduct my field portions is that I get people to the location, point out interesting compositions set up my own camera compose a scene and allow them to see it through my view finder. Run through any exercises scheduled and then let them do thier stuff. Once they all get started with their work I work along side of them and answer any questions they have on the spot, stopping what I am doing for that. At times, as I take people to the same places I have been so many times, that sometimes I don't even photograph if I can't see something new to my eyes and then I just buzz around asking if anyone has any questions, usually to my surprise they don't and just want thier space to photograph.
I am interested to hear your thoughts on workshops and why you have taken them and what you liked best. Did you mind if the instructor worked along side of you? Is a workshop out of the question to some? What are some of the hinderences that keep you from taking one, time constraits, days of the week, times of the year, monetary budget etc?
I've done two printing workshops with Charles Cramer (the only photographic workshops I've done). I wanted to learn from the best, and I did! Charlie is a great guy, and I'm proud to now have my prints hanging next to his in a La Jolla, CA gallery.
Since we're plugging Guy and I are adamant about providing the very best service to our workshop participants. Our cameras only come out when it's clearly an acceptable time for it to happen. We are otherwise always over the shoulders of our clients. We have a maximum 4:1 student:instructor ratio, we're insured, and we get the permits that legally allow us to operate our workshops in the locations that we do. I would suggest that these are the minium requirements you should expect from anyone who you are paying for instruction.
You can read a couple of nice reviews about our workshops here and here.
Okay, since you've restructured your question, the reasons are many that I am unable to go on photo workshops. First and foremost it is the cost, and second is time constraints.
If it became possible, in my next life (or if I hit the lottery), I would want a workshop where I felt comfortable asking questions that most others would already know the answers to. I obviously know basics well enough to produce an acceptable image, but would love to know more about small tricks of the trade which would improve my acceptable image ratio and my in-camera final image thus reducing my time at the computer, i.e. settings for shooting sunsets, slowing water, timed exposure techniques, what does the white balance do and how do you set it in-camera, using image stablization settings correctly, why do I get so much noise in images when I am shooting RAW and the ISO is set at 200, how to work on RAW images without converting them to TIFF, etc., etc.
If you could take an hour or so and tell me the answers to these, I would gladly spend a reasonable amount of money to learn and a day or so to implement them on a photo shoot at a grand vista.
Guess I'm saying ask for a list of questions of your attendees, answer the questions of all without singling out the person, have the instructions put into action at a photo shoot at special places not known to the general public.
Hi Youssef!! Nice thread!! I have never taken a workshop and unfortunately, I don't see it happening for a long time, if ever. My constraints are of the monetary and time variety. Plus, I am actually a rather shy person and would rather a one on one situation (or two or three). I would love the opportunity to travel and photograph whatever interests me. I DO play the lottery so maybe someday...
There are two workshops am really interested in
1.GT/MG LF workshop mentioned in the many replies above. Even meeting these two and chatting with them would be great.
2. Charles crammer + atkinson digital printing.
Till now I have not taken any.
Posted by Jack Graham on November 30, 2006 at 5:39 PM
Folks,
I have attended many over the years. I now conduct about 5-6 of my own every year. I find the folks who attend are eager to learn where to go and seek information that ( not to sound like an elitist) most of us already know. I keep my prices very reasonable and give 100% of the time to my participants. I do very little shooting. This fall I had about 15 participants here in Ohio for 2 weekends. Yes, I carried my equipment and shot maybe 10 frames that I though might be interesting. Most of my participants tell me that its the little things---hints, techniques etc that are shared make the workshops valuable. I try to give my participants their money's worth and more. I know for a fact I am not alone and there are lots of good workshops out there. There are lots of rip offs too. I hear all the time about some very famous folks who do workshops and spend the time shooting for themselves, They give guys like me a bad name.
I agree that word of mouth is the best
Bottom line... if you are new to photography doing a few workshops might help. Just pick the right ones. get references.
JG
Posted by David Senesac on November 30, 2006 at 6:51 PM
Hi Youssef,
Nope. Back in the early 80s when I became serious, there wasn't all the workshop and guided tour mania of today. I think photographers tended to just buy and read the usual magazines or discuss technique at local clubs to keep up with what was going on with photography gear and technique. Given my high tech background I've often had to learn the latest complex technologies on the fly without formal training by reading technical documents and books. So given my ability to read and learn from books, I do have a fair pile of photography books from Rowell's "Mountain Light" to a phone book sized how to Adobe Photoshop training course I read cover to cover a decade ago. Little of the photography books are anywhere near as difficult to comprehend simply by reading compared to the usual high tech diet I've often struggled with. On the other hand, I'm well aware the average person does not do well learning solely from even well written books, so the need for workshops like you provide certainly fills a need. ...David
Posted by Youssef Ismail on November 30, 2006 at 8:01 PM
David,
Ahh, thank you that was the word I was looking for - NEED. That is what I have been thinking about, what is the need of photographers today. As I search for workshops and what is offered out there by others, it seems to me that the emphasis is tours and promising the would be participant of an awesome experience. No doubt that these photo tour companies or individuals will take the group to amazing areas and feed them well and lodge them in nice places, but what of the photo instruction?
My wife Lori and I have gone through this 'arguement' several times. She feels that people want to just go to exotic and thrilling places and pampered the whole way through without being bothered by photographic theory. To some extenet I think she is correct. But I see things differently.
At this stage of my photographic endeavors, I am seeing things from a provider of services point of view tapping into a decade and a half of photo experience and what I always wanted to do when I was learning and what I wish was available to me. The way I see it is that if someone wants to learn how to photograph whatever, they need to learn what photography is and how it works. Format is irrelevant. In the last two years I have seen enough lights go on during the instruction sessions regarding exposeure to know that that particular person just made a jump to a whole new level of understanding of what and how thier camera does abd works when they trip that shutter. I just wanted to learn how to come back with photos that captured and present what I saw and felt when I witnessed the scene for myself, and hoped others would be as excited as I was from my photos. Putting the camera in 'P' mode never did that for me, but the 'M' mode was always just to daunting.
So when I put together my workshops, they were centered on that. What did I need to impart to participants to make them feel that 'M' mode was thier photo's best friend. I also knew that I had a limited amount of time to do that in as I was also coming at this from seeing what is possible for a person who has a family with a wife and children who demand thier time more than the hobby as well as looking at it from the viewpoint that they might be working a 9 to 5 daily with only two weeks of VACA available to for the whole year.
And so now after the close of my second workshop season, I am revisting my initial premises in trying to come up with workshops that are very desirable to those with an interest in photography.
Look I know that I am not a John Shaw or George Lepp or some other real well known big name photographer, nor am I a Marc Adamus or Guy Tal with knock your socks off compositions so it makes it hard to find people willing to dish out bucks to take my workshops. At the same time, I am no slouch around a camera, any camera, and with years of teaching experience, from Kindegarten all the way up to Graduate school, I know that I have the talent at imparting what I know.
So that is why I have turned to this online community for help in understanding what it is that one looks for in a workshop, for those that attend them, what they liked and disliked, and what hinders them from attending if they never did, and then hoepfully to try to come up with something that truly will be beneficial for those who love photography or who want to teach photography as well. I mean I am putting out all on the line here, by coming out and asking all of you, I am expecting that everyone will also know what I will learn as well. If we never ask we will never know. I mean, look I am not trying to solicit anyone to take my workshops right now, I am not trying to put a plug in for what I do, I am trying to understand what I need to do to make what I do better. I'll plug later
Youssef, I have never taken a photography workshop. Primarily due to monetary issues. Obviously, some workshops are bound to be better than others; whilst some workshops are going to be a complete rip-off money-wise, compared to others.
I would add to the list of reasons why anybody would do a photography tour.
I believe there are people who will do a workshop/tour thing just to make sure that they are not alone out there in places where they shouldn't be. In my opinion, only another crazy photographer or mountaineer/trekker would go several hundreds or thousands of kilometers away from the nearest presence of mankind. I doubt even hobbyist fishermen and hunters would do this.
There are certain parts of the world where sherpas and porters are available, but not all parts of the world will have such people; and even if they do, they might not be as affordable.
Posted by Kent Staubus on November 30, 2006 at 11:12 PM
Youssef--
Too many workshop deals seem to focus on gear and technique. While I know my technique isn't perfect, that's just not what I consider my biggest need. What has really become important to me is COMPOSITION. My gear is plenty good enough and I think I have all that I really need. Probably several times what I need. Twice I've come across Jim Brandenburg out here. Neither time did I even mention camera gear. Instead, I asked him why he shot something the way he did, and what he was trying to communicate with the shot, or what first attracted him to the image/scene. I honestly think I'd have just as productive a day running around with Ian Cameron, Guy & Micheal, and so on with NONE of us having a camera. I think I'd learn quite a bit just discussing how certain scenes could be captured. Or, why take the shot in the first place. I shoot every day and pretty much know how something will likely come out in a print so I don't actually need to take the shot. I'd benefit more from discussing the shot.
Ashutosh--
I've been places you might not even know exist. Not only did I go, I took my entire family! My oldest son calls these our "National Geographic vacations." My youngest son asks my wife, "Mom, are we going to another frozen place this year?" The first ocean my kids ever saw was Hudson Bay. We took the train, of course.
Kent in SD
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on November 30, 2006 at 11:57 PM
Youssef, I also have never attended a photography workshop. I do, however, plan to attend some in the near future.
I don't feel the need for instruction in the basics, such as exposure, DOF, etc. However, composition choices with actual examples and alternatives discussed in the field will always be of interest.
Advanced Photoshop, as applied to fine art printing, would be another area of interest to me. - first work with files selected by the instructor and examine the entire workflow to make the best print possible from these. Then allow participants to apply the concepts to their own images - with the instructor's guidance.
Photography "tours", without formal instruction are acceptable to me, as long as that is how the trip is advertized and priced. I view such trips as a cost/time effective means to visit new areas, especially where the logisitics of arranging the travel and planning the itinerary would be difficult - at least for the first time. Examples on my "wish list": Galapagos Islands, Antarctica, Iceland, South Georgia Island, African wildlife safari, Namibia, Patagonia, Alaska wildlife, Grand Canyon raft trip - with stops planned and timed for photography.
I hope you do well with your workshops. The demographics of retiring baby-boomers, with lots of time on their hands, should provide lots of customers. Now, I just need to decide how soon to retire.
Posted by Youssef Ismail on December 1, 2006 at 12:12 AM
Kent,
THat has beenthe case with some of the people who took my workshop last year and wanted more than just technical instruction. They asked if I could do something like that. My answer was a resounding YES. This year I offered what I called Veteran Level workshops that were centered around composition and color and that was it. It focused on how to see, and why something was photographed and what the colors did to effect the mood of the image and the mode of the observer. In addition, I chose locations that for the most part were quite mundae to force the participants to really focus on composition and one location that was so over phtographed that it would force them to look at it in very new ways to come away with fresh compostions. Unfortunately, only one of these workshops attracted any interest, the Autumn in Yosemite workshop that I conducted just three weeks ago and I have been posting images from that trip. It was, as one of the participants who had asked for this type of workshop last year and took it this year said, " this is exactly what he needed.
One of the interesting things that occured during that workshop was the question came up about night time photography. We were fortunate, well I planned it, to have the full moon with us at sunset for at least two of the evenings. On the first night, in their enthusiasm, we stayed out a bit later than sunset and they asked about the technical aspects of moonlight photography. After explaining it a bit and the limitiations of reciprocity failure found with film, and increased noise with digital, they cut loose and produced some really incredible night time work that I think was very unique and produced some unique image of Yosemite. As case in point is This Image made by Al Ungar. Mind you this is an image made in the middle of the night around 10:30 pm under a full moon and clear skies. Even though this is a typical Yosemite compostion, the low contrast moon light produced an image that cannoth be taken in the day as seen no matter how hard we try.
Kent, you sure have a lot of moral support with you on your photography trips!
Bill, I completely agree with you on your second and third paragraphs. I think I'm not bad with exposure control (Bryan Peterson's books are really good at that). However I would surely love to learn this magic art of photo post-processing, especially if the tour leader hangs out with the mortals during the tour, takes couple of shots, and later on would sit down and work with certain examples on how to properly process the shots and bring out the best in them.
Posted by Kent Staubus on December 1, 2006 at 12:21 AM
Youssef--
Since it gets dark so early in winter at my latitude, I routinely shoot at night. During the dead of winter I've been known to shoot ONLY after dark for a week or more. My last magazine submissions contained 8 images, and 6 were full moon shots of a great railroad bridge. This subject has possibilities. Most all photographers, including "mid-ginners," are very hesitant to try night photography. It's really not hard, and these are the kinds of shots that set you apart from everyone else. I think all most people need is a little encouragement.
Kent in SD
Posted by Richard Wong on December 1, 2006 at 1:33 AM
I think choosing the "mundane" locations is a good idea. You probably just need a different selling point in order to make it attractive. Something like, "Make award-winning scenic nature pictures even in your backyard."
I read an online interview with William Neill where he states that nowadays he's primarily a road-side photographer. He felt that if you have a vision, then you will make it happen anywhere, and with things you connect with on an emotional level. Seeing has nothing to do with how many miles you trek to get photos. Of course roadside for him was Yosemite Valley, but he does have a point.
If I were inclined and could afford workshops, I'd look into something I feel I'm lacking in. Such as street photography. David Alan Harvey could probably teach me a lot. Or perhaps, wildlife guys like Nick Nichols, Brandenburg, Lanting. Set-up Still lifes is a genre that just bewilders me. Maybe I'd be interested in someone who has a reputation for taking still life's. The other thing that would appeal to me is exotic locations I'd be too scared to go on my own. Amazon, Vietnam, etc...
I have never done one, just learned from all of you by viewing your workand reading your comments. I would like to take one but I am a third year teacher in one of the lowest paid teacher states in the country (UT) and I have three small children. The things I am looking for in a shop is techniques w/ PS2 and how to make better use of my 4x5 (just fiddling with it for now). Also guides, it would be nice having a guide for a workshop (or field location) that I am not familure with.
Posted by David Senesac on December 1, 2006 at 3:59 PM
Neill's comment has some truth though I'd bet the intent of his statement in whatever context it was stated was not so general. I think good photographers can produce interesting images in even dull surroundings especially within limits of small formats but great landscape images esspecially with greater image sizes almost always require strong elements to work with.
I thought about some of the things Youssef related and one thing that occurred to me was that I think many photographers that are already somewhat experienced and somewhat plateaued out could benefit from a somewhat in depth study of great landscape images interpretted by someone that had the ability to explain what makes such images have the impact they do much like one gets from art experts when explaining great paintings. When I've gone to galleries and art fairs with other photographers looking at prints, we can really tear into what we see or when we see something great have a lot to articulate why and thus learn. Unfortunately most photographers that post on image critique forums here or elsewhere on the web are getting less than honest watered down feedback on posted images that both tends to inflate the value of their own images and promote other's images that have serious flaws. That of course is the result of such forums being all too much in the public where one is more likely to receive ego strokes than honest feedback. And in fact serious analysis and discussion of images to the depth I'm referring to would only result in other members feeling awkward because such is too different from the status quo of one liner responses. In any case the web is a mediocre venue for critiquing great images because the image sizes are so puny. Thus the better way to go about such is to get together with others especially with groups as local photography clubs and take a Sunday tour of larger art fairs or places with lots of galleries for viewing real prints like say Sedona or Carmel. ...David
...David
David: You have brought up some good points. However, I don't quite see how going along with a bunch of photographers to a gallery in Carmel or Sedona and really tearing into someone else's work (unfortunately, my work doesn't hang there ) is going to benefit me. This is specially true if the style of work on display doesn't match mine. I think its better if I can get my photos in front of folks who are kind enough to critique it (without bias) and NPN seems like a good vehicle for that sort of thing. I am not sure of others, but when it comes to my photographs, the limitations of web-display shouldn't be a big hinderance to someone viewing it.
Youssef: The problem I see with most workshops is that they are revolve around transfering knowledge/experience from the instructor to the students. I am not really interested in this, specially when it comes to the more interesting aspects of photography like vision and creativity. I prefer one on one correspondence with a few photographers whose work and style I have come to appreciate and admire and find it more useful for meeting my needs. For the more mechanical parts such as camera use, post-processing and printing, workshops are great and I might take advantage of them someday.
Regards.
Posted by William Vrolyk on December 2, 2006 at 12:39 AM
Youssef, I have never been with a photo workshop but would like to one day. Would there be workshops aimed at different levels: beginners, intermediate, advanced? I am not sure if a group with a variety of proficiency would work as well as a group on the same level. What would you concentrate on more with a beginners group? Some who are advanced may think they do not need a workshop but there are those who know there is always more to learn and know. What would you offer them as instructor?
Discussion
28 repliesI have, and it was a lack-of-knowledge driven reason, chosen out of convience of location and budgetry constraints.
http://www.dannyburk.com/nature_photography_workshops.htm
I also did a half day intro to zoo photography on a whim, which was run out of the Toledo zoo (and NOT! by Danny). I was less impressed.
Kent in SD
In general terms, the more specific your needs the easier it is to find the right workshop and instructor. Could be location, technique or gear specific, but spell out what you are looking for beforehand and use that to filter your choices.
I finalize my choices this way before slapping cash: I contact the instructor and ask for a syllabus and class schedule. I also ask for names and contact info for references if the instructor is unknown to me. I also Google the heck out of the instructor. Then I follow up on all that. If the "instructor" is so disorganized that a syllabus and schedule aren't available, that's a sign. If references are "unavailable" that's another sign.
There are some incredible workshops and instructors out there. There are some real ripoffs out there, too. The hard part is sorting one from the other.
Also be sure to ask the instructor about their operating permits and insurance. You'd be surprised how many operators decide to take a risk and haul a group of people outdoors without the proper authority and insurance should anything go wrong.
Guy
One of my main concerns, along with the others that have already been mentioned, is the instructor-to-student ratio. I have observed field workshops where there was a single instructor for nearly twenty students! I have to wonder if the students really got their money's worth and came away with positive learning outcomes?
So, one of the things I would ask a potential instructor is what the maximum class size would be, and also if he/she would have skilled adjunct instructors to help out. If the ratio was greater than one-to-seven in a 'field' workshop, I would probably look elsewhere.
-PB
Today as I run my own Organic Light Photography Workshops I am always concerned with participant satisfaction.
The way I conduct my field portions is that I get people to the location, point out interesting compositions set up my own camera compose a scene and allow them to see it through my view finder. Run through any exercises scheduled and then let them do thier stuff. Once they all get started with their work I work along side of them and answer any questions they have on the spot, stopping what I am doing for that. At times, as I take people to the same places I have been so many times, that sometimes I don't even photograph if I can't see something new to my eyes and then I just buzz around asking if anyone has any questions, usually to my surprise they don't and just want thier space to photograph.
I am interested to hear your thoughts on workshops and why you have taken them and what you liked best. Did you mind if the instructor worked along side of you? Is a workshop out of the question to some? What are some of the hinderences that keep you from taking one, time constraits, days of the week, times of the year, monetary budget etc?
Since we're plugging
You can read a couple of nice reviews about our workshops here and here.
If it became possible, in my next life (or if I hit the lottery), I would want a workshop where I felt comfortable asking questions that most others would already know the answers to. I obviously know basics well enough to produce an acceptable image, but would love to know more about small tricks of the trade which would improve my acceptable image ratio and my in-camera final image thus reducing my time at the computer, i.e. settings for shooting sunsets, slowing water, timed exposure techniques, what does the white balance do and how do you set it in-camera, using image stablization settings correctly, why do I get so much noise in images when I am shooting RAW and the ISO is set at 200, how to work on RAW images without converting them to TIFF, etc., etc.
If you could take an hour or so and tell me the answers to these, I would gladly spend a reasonable amount of money to learn and a day or so to implement them on a photo shoot at a grand vista.
Guess I'm saying ask for a list of questions of your attendees, answer the questions of all without singling out the person, have the instructions put into action at a photo shoot at special places not known to the general public.
1.GT/MG LF workshop mentioned in the many replies above. Even meeting these two and chatting with them would be great.
2. Charles crammer + atkinson digital printing.
Till now I have not taken any.
I have attended many over the years. I now conduct about 5-6 of my own every year. I find the folks who attend are eager to learn where to go and seek information that ( not to sound like an elitist) most of us already know. I keep my prices very reasonable and give 100% of the time to my participants. I do very little shooting. This fall I had about 15 participants here in Ohio for 2 weekends. Yes, I carried my equipment and shot maybe 10 frames that I though might be interesting. Most of my participants tell me that its the little things---hints, techniques etc that are shared make the workshops valuable. I try to give my participants their money's worth and more. I know for a fact I am not alone and there are lots of good workshops out there. There are lots of rip offs too. I hear all the time about some very famous folks who do workshops and spend the time shooting for themselves, They give guys like me a bad name.
I agree that word of mouth is the best
Bottom line... if you are new to photography doing a few workshops might help. Just pick the right ones. get references.
JG
Nope. Back in the early 80s when I became serious, there wasn't all the workshop and guided tour mania of today. I think photographers tended to just buy and read the usual magazines or discuss technique at local clubs to keep up with what was going on with photography gear and technique. Given my high tech background I've often had to learn the latest complex technologies on the fly without formal training by reading technical documents and books. So given my ability to read and learn from books, I do have a fair pile of photography books from Rowell's "Mountain Light" to a phone book sized how to Adobe Photoshop training course I read cover to cover a decade ago. Little of the photography books are anywhere near as difficult to comprehend simply by reading compared to the usual high tech diet I've often struggled with. On the other hand, I'm well aware the average person does not do well learning solely from even well written books, so the need for workshops like you provide certainly fills a need. ...David
Ahh, thank you that was the word I was looking for - NEED. That is what I have been thinking about, what is the need of photographers today. As I search for workshops and what is offered out there by others, it seems to me that the emphasis is tours and promising the would be participant of an awesome experience. No doubt that these photo tour companies or individuals will take the group to amazing areas and feed them well and lodge them in nice places, but what of the photo instruction?
My wife Lori and I have gone through this 'arguement' several times. She feels that people want to just go to exotic and thrilling places and pampered the whole way through without being bothered by photographic theory. To some extenet I think she is correct. But I see things differently.
At this stage of my photographic endeavors, I am seeing things from a provider of services point of view tapping into a decade and a half of photo experience and what I always wanted to do when I was learning and what I wish was available to me. The way I see it is that if someone wants to learn how to photograph whatever, they need to learn what photography is and how it works. Format is irrelevant. In the last two years I have seen enough lights go on during the instruction sessions regarding exposeure to know that that particular person just made a jump to a whole new level of understanding of what and how thier camera does abd works when they trip that shutter. I just wanted to learn how to come back with photos that captured and present what I saw and felt when I witnessed the scene for myself, and hoped others would be as excited as I was from my photos. Putting the camera in 'P' mode never did that for me, but the 'M' mode was always just to daunting.
So when I put together my workshops, they were centered on that. What did I need to impart to participants to make them feel that 'M' mode was thier photo's best friend. I also knew that I had a limited amount of time to do that in as I was also coming at this from seeing what is possible for a person who has a family with a wife and children who demand thier time more than the hobby as well as looking at it from the viewpoint that they might be working a 9 to 5 daily with only two weeks of VACA available to for the whole year.
And so now after the close of my second workshop season, I am revisting my initial premises in trying to come up with workshops that are very desirable to those with an interest in photography.
Look I know that I am not a John Shaw or George Lepp or some other real well known big name photographer, nor am I a Marc Adamus or Guy Tal with knock your socks off compositions so it makes it hard to find people willing to dish out bucks to take my workshops. At the same time, I am no slouch around a camera, any camera, and with years of teaching experience, from Kindegarten all the way up to Graduate school, I know that I have the talent at imparting what I know.
So that is why I have turned to this online community for help in understanding what it is that one looks for in a workshop, for those that attend them, what they liked and disliked, and what hinders them from attending if they never did, and then hoepfully to try to come up with something that truly will be beneficial for those who love photography or who want to teach photography as well. I mean I am putting out all on the line here, by coming out and asking all of you, I am expecting that everyone will also know what I will learn as well. If we never ask we will never know. I mean, look I am not trying to solicit anyone to take my workshops right now, I am not trying to put a plug in for what I do, I am trying to understand what I need to do to make what I do better. I'll plug later
Thanks so much for your response to this thread.
I would add to the list of reasons why anybody would do a photography tour.
I believe there are people who will do a workshop/tour thing just to make sure that they are not alone out there in places where they shouldn't be. In my opinion, only another crazy photographer or mountaineer/trekker would go several hundreds or thousands of kilometers away from the nearest presence of mankind. I doubt even hobbyist fishermen and hunters would do this.
There are certain parts of the world where sherpas and porters are available, but not all parts of the world will have such people; and even if they do, they might not be as affordable.
Too many workshop deals seem to focus on gear and technique. While I know my technique isn't perfect, that's just not what I consider my biggest need. What has really become important to me is COMPOSITION. My gear is plenty good enough and I think I have all that I really need. Probably several times what I need.
Ashutosh--
I've been places you might not even know exist. Not only did I go, I took my entire family!
Kent in SD
I don't feel the need for instruction in the basics, such as exposure, DOF, etc. However, composition choices with actual examples and alternatives discussed in the field will always be of interest.
Advanced Photoshop, as applied to fine art printing, would be another area of interest to me. - first work with files selected by the instructor and examine the entire workflow to make the best print possible from these. Then allow participants to apply the concepts to their own images - with the instructor's guidance.
Photography "tours", without formal instruction are acceptable to me, as long as that is how the trip is advertized and priced. I view such trips as a cost/time effective means to visit new areas, especially where the logisitics of arranging the travel and planning the itinerary would be difficult - at least for the first time. Examples on my "wish list": Galapagos Islands, Antarctica, Iceland, South Georgia Island, African wildlife safari, Namibia, Patagonia, Alaska wildlife, Grand Canyon raft trip - with stops planned and timed for photography.
I hope you do well with your workshops. The demographics of retiring baby-boomers, with lots of time on their hands, should provide lots of customers. Now, I just need to decide how soon to retire.
THat has beenthe case with some of the people who took my workshop last year and wanted more than just technical instruction. They asked if I could do something like that. My answer was a resounding YES. This year I offered what I called Veteran Level workshops that were centered around composition and color and that was it. It focused on how to see, and why something was photographed and what the colors did to effect the mood of the image and the mode of the observer. In addition, I chose locations that for the most part were quite mundae to force the participants to really focus on composition and one location that was so over phtographed that it would force them to look at it in very new ways to come away with fresh compostions. Unfortunately, only one of these workshops attracted any interest, the Autumn in Yosemite workshop that I conducted just three weeks ago and I have been posting images from that trip. It was, as one of the participants who had asked for this type of workshop last year and took it this year said, " this is exactly what he needed.
One of the interesting things that occured during that workshop was the question came up about night time photography. We were fortunate, well I planned it, to have the full moon with us at sunset for at least two of the evenings. On the first night, in their enthusiasm, we stayed out a bit later than sunset and they asked about the technical aspects of moonlight photography. After explaining it a bit and the limitiations of reciprocity failure found with film, and increased noise with digital, they cut loose and produced some really incredible night time work that I think was very unique and produced some unique image of Yosemite. As case in point is This Image made by Al Ungar. Mind you this is an image made in the middle of the night around 10:30 pm under a full moon and clear skies. Even though this is a typical Yosemite compostion, the low contrast moon light produced an image that cannoth be taken in the day as seen no matter how hard we try.
Bill, I completely agree with you on your second and third paragraphs. I think I'm not bad with exposure control (Bryan Peterson's books are really good at that). However I would surely love to learn this magic art of photo post-processing, especially if the tour leader hangs out with the mortals during the tour, takes couple of shots, and later on would sit down and work with certain examples on how to properly process the shots and bring out the best in them.
Since it gets dark so early in winter at my latitude, I routinely shoot at night. During the dead of winter I've been known to shoot ONLY after dark for a week or more. My last magazine submissions contained 8 images, and 6 were full moon shots of a great railroad bridge. This subject has possibilities. Most all photographers, including "mid-ginners," are very hesitant to try night photography. It's really not hard, and these are the kinds of shots that set you apart from everyone else. I think all most people need is a little encouragement.
Kent in SD
I read an online interview with William Neill where he states that nowadays he's primarily a road-side photographer. He felt that if you have a vision, then you will make it happen anywhere, and with things you connect with on an emotional level. Seeing has nothing to do with how many miles you trek to get photos. Of course roadside for him was Yosemite Valley, but he does have a point.
If I were inclined and could afford workshops, I'd look into something I feel I'm lacking in. Such as street photography. David Alan Harvey could probably teach me a lot. Or perhaps, wildlife guys like Nick Nichols, Brandenburg, Lanting. Set-up Still lifes is a genre that just bewilders me. Maybe I'd be interested in someone who has a reputation for taking still life's. The other thing that would appeal to me is exotic locations I'd be too scared to go on my own. Amazon, Vietnam, etc...
I thought about some of the things Youssef related and one thing that occurred to me was that I think many photographers that are already somewhat experienced and somewhat plateaued out could benefit from a somewhat in depth study of great landscape images interpretted by someone that had the ability to explain what makes such images have the impact they do much like one gets from art experts when explaining great paintings. When I've gone to galleries and art fairs with other photographers looking at prints, we can really tear into what we see or when we see something great have a lot to articulate why and thus learn. Unfortunately most photographers that post on image critique forums here or elsewhere on the web are getting less than honest watered down feedback on posted images that both tends to inflate the value of their own images and promote other's images that have serious flaws. That of course is the result of such forums being all too much in the public where one is more likely to receive ego strokes than honest feedback. And in fact serious analysis and discussion of images to the depth I'm referring to would only result in other members feeling awkward because such is too different from the status quo of one liner responses. In any case the web is a mediocre venue for critiquing great images because the image sizes are so puny. Thus the better way to go about such is to get together with others especially with groups as local photography clubs and take a Sunday tour of larger art fairs or places with lots of galleries for viewing real prints like say Sedona or Carmel. ...David
...David
Youssef: The problem I see with most workshops is that they are revolve around transfering knowledge/experience from the instructor to the students. I am not really interested in this, specially when it comes to the more interesting aspects of photography like vision and creativity. I prefer one on one correspondence with a few photographers whose work and style I have come to appreciate and admire and find it more useful for meeting my needs. For the more mechanical parts such as camera use, post-processing and printing, workshops are great and I might take advantage of them someday.
Regards.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada