Posted by Roger Rouch on December 6, 2006 at 1:06 PM
I'm only about 6 months into the digital realm, so pardon me if this has been hashed over before. If you are able to take a scene with a selection ISO settings without having to detrimentally effect anything else like DOF, idea aperature, water motion, etc., is there any difference between 100, 200, or slightly higher ISO and at what point would you start to see noise?
Posted by Bret Edge on December 6, 2006 at 1:14 PM
What camera are you shooting with, Roger? I don't like to shoot anything higher than ISO 400 on my 1Ds MKII (although I very occasionally go to ISO 800 for wildlife). In my experience, any landscape image shot above ISO 200 is too noisy for my tastes when viewed at actual pixels. I typically use ISO 100 for almost all landscape/nature photos, dropping it to ISO 50 if I need a slower shutter speed.
In some cases (e.g. deep shadows) I can see increased noise even at ISO 200 with my 5D. It's a similar trade-off as with film: the higher the sensitivity the more grain/noise you'll see.
Guy
Posted by Rick Dunn on December 6, 2006 at 2:10 PM
200 is the highest I go on my D2X before noise becomes noticeable in the shadows. But, if I have to, I don't worry about shooting at 400 or even 800 if necessary to capture a sharp image. Noise Ninja or a similar program can address noise during processing; not much that can be done about a blurry shot. Whenever possible, a tripod and low ISO is the way to go.
Posted by Nat Coalson on December 6, 2006 at 2:28 PM
I agree with everyone's statements about the ISO threshholds for noise being introduced in images, but I don't agree that it's a major source of concern.
The current crop of noise reduction software really does a good job. (Of course, this adds another step to your workflow.)
Noise Ninja is the current leader in specialized software for noise reduction, but there are many others, and even Photoshop/ACR and Lightroom have basic noise reduction built-in. Photoshop also has a Reduce Noise plug-in that works OK. (I've been using an old version of Grain Surgery and it's fantastic.)
My point is that using higher ISO's should not be scary; there are sometimes when your best bet is to crank up the ISO to get the shot, rather than not getting it at all. If given the choice between a blurry image with no noise, or a sharp image with noise, I'd always prefer the latter.
Re: using a tripod to avoid higher ISOs - keep in mind that using a lower ISO also means a longer shutter speed, and hence more noise: The longer a DSLR sensor is charged, the more noise is introduced.
***However, this noise is different from that of cranking up the ISO, which can be thought of in the same terms as amplifying any electrical signal. That's why a given camera will produce different noise from ISO vs. long exposures.
Much of this comes down to reciprocals. Higher ISO = more noise, but longer shutter speeds also = more noise. You have to find out how your camera performs in these circumstances, and find the best combination of settings.
Try shooting a scene in low light (on a tripod) with both high ISO and low ISO and compare the results. You might find that your particular camera introduces more noise with long shutter speeds than it does with higher ISOs.
I'm usually comforatable going up to ISO 800 on my Canons if the conditions call for it; either handheld or on a tripod.
Also keep in mind that much of the noise you can see on-screen will never show in a print; you owe it to yourself to do some test prints before deciding what is "too much noise".
Posted by Kalin Wilson on December 6, 2006 at 3:02 PM
Roger,
Good advice so far. In addition to higher ISO=more noise, the smaller the sensor the more susceptible to noise it will be. However, the relationship of noise to ISO is not as drastic as the relationship of grain to ISO was with film, in my experience. I agree with Rick and Nat that higher ISO shouldn't be avoided just for the noise.
I typically shoot at ISO 100 or 200 if I can but have gone to 800 and 1600 when needed. You can clean up any noise and it's not a given that you'll always have bad noise at high ISOs.
I thought it was interesting that Michael Reichmann, in his video journal #14, said that when he is on travel shooting street shots he keeps his Canon on ISO 400 and Auto Exposure. He does this to ensure he gets the low light, shadow shots without having to worry about changing settings when a candid shot presents itself. That's not directly applicable to landscapes but for wildlife, etc. the same reasoning could be applied.
Posted by Roger Rouch on December 6, 2006 at 3:49 PM
Thanks for the help ... some interesting answers to ponder. Bret, I'm using a 5D. I'm used to using ISO 100 film so much, it's mostly what I've been using. It certainly gets tempting when there's a little breeze or especially low light to set it up a few notches and then accidentally forget about it. I don't know that I've done this often enough to get a feel for things.
Posted by Ken Wyatt on December 6, 2006 at 11:57 PM
I routinely crank my 5D up to 800 for some indoor or night shots. I also use NeatImage (similar to Noise Ninja) to get rid of the noise. It's really magic!
By the way, I was just informed of a Photoshop plugin called "Focus Magic" that dramatically improves out of focus subjects or slightly blurred shots due to movement. It's just $45 from www.focusmagic.com. Good for Mac or PC.
Ken
Posted by Les Barstow on December 7, 2006 at 11:37 AM
I keep my D2X at 400 until I set up for a landscape shot. (I also keep my 80-400VR lens attached most of the time - just in case something interesting wanders by!) But when the tripod sets down, the ISO goes down to 100 most of the time, unless I'm trying to freeze some blowing plant matter.
At ISO 100, I would feel comfortable printing 100dpi (42"x28") prints with proper exposure; at ISO 400, I wouldn't generally print larger than 24"x16". Still better than I felt comfortable with on ISO 100 35mm slides, BTW.
Noise Ninja is your friend, as other people have noted. I have an ISO 800 image of a golden eagle that, once NN was finished with it, was spectacular; I only hesitate briefly before bumping up the ISO in tough situations.
Discussion
8 repliesGuy
The current crop of noise reduction software really does a good job. (Of course, this adds another step to your workflow.)
Noise Ninja is the current leader in specialized software for noise reduction, but there are many others, and even Photoshop/ACR and Lightroom have basic noise reduction built-in. Photoshop also has a Reduce Noise plug-in that works OK. (I've been using an old version of Grain Surgery and it's fantastic.)
My point is that using higher ISO's should not be scary; there are sometimes when your best bet is to crank up the ISO to get the shot, rather than not getting it at all. If given the choice between a blurry image with no noise, or a sharp image with noise, I'd always prefer the latter.
Re: using a tripod to avoid higher ISOs - keep in mind that using a lower ISO also means a longer shutter speed, and hence more noise: The longer a DSLR sensor is charged, the more noise is introduced.
***However, this noise is different from that of cranking up the ISO, which can be thought of in the same terms as amplifying any electrical signal. That's why a given camera will produce different noise from ISO vs. long exposures.
Much of this comes down to reciprocals. Higher ISO = more noise, but longer shutter speeds also = more noise. You have to find out how your camera performs in these circumstances, and find the best combination of settings.
Try shooting a scene in low light (on a tripod) with both high ISO and low ISO and compare the results. You might find that your particular camera introduces more noise with long shutter speeds than it does with higher ISOs.
I'm usually comforatable going up to ISO 800 on my Canons if the conditions call for it; either handheld or on a tripod.
Also keep in mind that much of the noise you can see on-screen will never show in a print; you owe it to yourself to do some test prints before deciding what is "too much noise".
Here are some links to more info:
http://www.photoxels.com/tutorial_noise.html
http://www.photoxels.com/tutorial_noise.html
http://www.picturecode.com/noise.htm
Good advice so far. In addition to higher ISO=more noise, the smaller the sensor the more susceptible to noise it will be. However, the relationship of noise to ISO is not as drastic as the relationship of grain to ISO was with film, in my experience. I agree with Rick and Nat that higher ISO shouldn't be avoided just for the noise.
I typically shoot at ISO 100 or 200 if I can but have gone to 800 and 1600 when needed. You can clean up any noise and it's not a given that you'll always have bad noise at high ISOs.
I thought it was interesting that Michael Reichmann, in his video journal #14, said that when he is on travel shooting street shots he keeps his Canon on ISO 400 and Auto Exposure. He does this to ensure he gets the low light, shadow shots without having to worry about changing settings when a candid shot presents itself. That's not directly applicable to landscapes but for wildlife, etc. the same reasoning could be applied.
By the way, I was just informed of a Photoshop plugin called "Focus Magic" that dramatically improves out of focus subjects or slightly blurred shots due to movement. It's just $45 from www.focusmagic.com. Good for Mac or PC.
Ken
At ISO 100, I would feel comfortable printing 100dpi (42"x28") prints with proper exposure; at ISO 400, I wouldn't generally print larger than 24"x16". Still better than I felt comfortable with on ISO 100 35mm slides, BTW.
Noise Ninja is your friend, as other people have noted. I have an ISO 800 image of a golden eagle that, once NN was finished with it, was spectacular; I only hesitate briefly before bumping up the ISO in tough situations.