I understand why people take such actions to protect and care for their families. Oftentimes the emotional ties are so strong as to undermine sound judgement in a crisis situation. So, being prepared also means having a plan that can be easily adapted to one's current situation.
-PB
Posted by dan elster on December 7, 2006 at 5:54 PM
Last summer, brand new to Southern Oregon, my wife and I took the exact same route they did. Weather conditions were of course much better, but that road is rediculously confusing. We ended up waving down a pickup to help us find our way out of there. He said it happened all the time. When you look at most maps, it looks like a fairly solid route to the coast. Hardly! This story definetly hit home with me and will never leave home unprepared again.
From what I've read today in the local papers, this guy and wife were much more resourceful than a lot of people would be. Although in winter they say never leave your car, I'm sure after several days, he figured noone was coming and had no choice but to go find help. Almost a no win situation if you ask me. That area is really rugged and really steep. Trackers couldn't believe the path he took, saying he was incredibly strong and determined. The rescuers were even having trouble climbing some of the steep terain he did.
What a tragedy.
Very sad. I know he was doing all he knew how to do to save his family. I saw a documentary recently of a family that had this exact same thing happen. I think it also was in Oregon, or perhaps Washington. And if I recall correctly, they all survived, but with some injuries and frostbite. Very scary...it just goes to show how quickly you can get into trouble. Even in milder climates we need to be as careful as possible when out shooting.
Posted by Kent Staubus on December 7, 2006 at 8:27 PM
My take was he was indeed a brave guy, but was an urban computer geek out of his element. The smart play was to stay with the car, build a nice fire using gasoline and cigarette lighter (break up dead wood,) keep it very smokey during the day (evergreen branches,) melt snow to drink using a hubcap if you have to, and try to kill something to eat. If I had to walk, I would stay on a road, carry a mirror from the car to signal with. I knew what happened when they said they found his pants. Classic sign of last moments of freezing to death.
Kent in SD
Posted by dan elster on December 7, 2006 at 8:47 PM
I agree that he was out of his element, but he did a few smart things. He had a fire going and even burnt the tires to the vehicle(talk about smoky), his wife nursed both children(including a 4 year old), melted snow to drink. No mention of trying to hunt down a meal.
One of the most interesting things that has now come out is that he stuck to the road until ...get this, a bear started following him. The trackers sent to find him are now saying there are bear tracks clearly showing it pursuing him and that's when he left the road. That's what's being reported on the local news anyway. ??
I can't imagine being in a situation like this. I also can't believe how careless I've been in the past heading out into the wilderness.
On a lighter note, this area is unbelievably beautiful if you are ever in southern Oregon. Great place for photography.
Posted by Don Miller on December 7, 2006 at 9:47 PM
I Imagine he saw his children declining and felt he had to do something.
The article I read said he walked 8 miles but was only a mile from his car when he died. I would like to think he heard the aircraft from the direction of his car, and knew his wife and kids made it.
One thought I take from this event is the need to decide on a plan and stick to it (unless there are major changes in the environment). Fear and depression after seven day in the car is not the time to change the plan and start walking.
But that's not a criticism. It sounds like they did everything within their ability and knowledge. And James didn't make a mistake that killed his wife and children. I'm sure after four or five days in the car he would be very satisfied with this ending. I would.
Posted by Tom Webster on December 7, 2006 at 11:13 PM
If I anticipate going out in cold, snowy, or rainy weather I always have a spare set of clothes, an extra jacket, and a sleeping bag packed in my truck. I always carry 5 gals of water in the truck and I have a food box in which I carry a small stove and a week's worth of freeze dried food. I always carry a water purification system, too. If others are going with me I make sure I have extra gear for them, too.
Probably one of the most important items I keep in the truck at all times is a half dozen or more, 15 minute-burning, highway safety flares. No matter how wet or green wood may be, the safety flares will start a fire pronto! Highway safety flares burn hot enough to cut steel railroad rails. I also carry my spare tire in the back of the truck rather than keeping it stashed under the truck in the spare tire rack. If necessary you can burn it for a signal fire.
Always, without fail, tell someone exactly where you are going and the anticipated route. If at all possible, do not deviate from that route. If you do have to, make a phone call from the nearest town or from your cell phone and let someone know your plans have changed. If you are caught in bad weather DON"T LEAVE YOUR VEHICLE! I used to be a member of a search and rescue team in the 1970s. I can't tell you how many more rescues would have had successful conclusions if people would have just stayed with their vehicle.
In hot weather I carry double the amount of water and still carry all of the above mentioned gear. In hot weather I carry a shade canopy that attaches to the back of my camper shell, too. I did break down one time out in the desert and had to be "found". I told my wife exactly where I was going and when I didn't return home when I was supposed to she called the county sheriff and I had help in less than 24 hrs.
It just doesn't take much to suddenly find yourself in a predicament. Being prepared makes a predicament manageable.
I did hear about this. It's a sad story. Given the (lack of) equipment available, I probably would have argued very strongly to stay right there with the car. Then again, seven, eight, nine days into it, I would have to reconsider. Mr. Kim may have made an heroic effort to correct an error, but it is wrong to call him a hero. Sorry.
Pete D.
Posted by Bill Stice on December 8, 2006 at 8:41 AM
I agree that it is a sad story. I am very able bodied and backpack in the North Carolina Mountains a great deal including in winter conditions. However when I take my wife with me I have to consider conditions in a totally different way. She is handicapped and cannot hike very far. I refuse to go up some really rough or remote roads when she is with me because if something happens I have to get both of us out and not just myself. I too go prepared and have my truck packed with survival gear but with her I just don't go where I think I might put both of us at risk. She sometimes gets a little upset but I think ultimately she understands.
Posted by Bill Chambers on December 8, 2006 at 11:50 AM
For someone out of his element he seemed to be quite resourceful in many ways. The stories mentioned he burned his tires for warmth. I don't know when he did this, but have to assume he did it at night when it was colder. I can't help but wonder if he had burned them during the day if a rescue chopper might have seen the dense black smoke a burning tire puts off? Just a thought...
Regardless, a very sad story, but at least the wife and children were rescued.
These incidents are really tragic. They feature a cascading series of mistakes, from which victims are either rescued, recover on their own, or perish. For all of us the message is to recognize our mistakes soon enough to recover, or failing that, hold ourselves together while waiting for rescue. Their inititial mistakes got them in trouble, but then they did some things right once they got stuck. Further mistakes cost him his life even as good decisions held the family together while waiting rescue.
The hardest part is admitting our own mistakes soon enough. The most serious mistakes are travelling without suitable clothing and supplies for emergencies, then getting into situations beyond your own or your vehicle's capabilities. It's pretty easy to convince yourself to pack emergency gear for recreating in the back country, but tough to do so for drives in the family sedan.
I could probably start a new civilization with the emergency gear in the several trucks we use for backcountry travel. But there's virtually nothing in the sedan we drive on deserted icy mountain roads in the dark- 70 miles round trip just to get to the grocery store! The emergecny gear is expensive, bulky and always in the way, so it tends to stay home.
Speaking on a very personal level, the hardest things for me to do are to admit when I'm lost or to ask for directions. It reminds me of my daughter's favorite one-liner about why it takes millions of sperm to fertilize a single egg---- because none of them will stop and ask for directions.
Posted by Bill Stice on December 8, 2006 at 1:17 PM
Hank, great comments and you are exactly right. One of the most difficult things with any high risk adventure is to know what your limits are, when you have reached them and to be willing to admit it. I paddled a kayak in white water for years. I'm getting too old and don't have the time to stay in shape to do it any more. One of the first things I learned from a seasoned veteran was that there is no shame in admiting that you are beyond your skill level and to "sneak" or walk around a difficult paddle. In many cases it can save you injury or death but will also not put one of your buddies at risk either. It is a hard lesson but one that must be learned to stay out of trouble.
As far as I can tell, the Kims made only two mistakes they could reasonably have been expected to avoid given the information they had at the particular moment. One, taking an unfamiliar, narrow, windy, untrafficked mountain road late at night during a weather front without survival gear. And two, James Kim leaving the road and walking into the even more unfamiliar and unforgiving surrounding wildlands.
Every other "mistake" they made were mistakes in hindsight only and totally understandable given what they knew, or thought they knew, at the time. In burning their tires, they were probably more resourceful than I would have been.
What a tragedy.
Scott
Posted by Kent Staubus on December 8, 2006 at 11:03 PM
As a good old country boy, I carefully look at a road before driving down it. I can quickly tell if it has regular traffic on it or not. If it doesn't, I assume it's a dead end. If it doesn't have a stop sign on it, I assume it's not county maintained and likely no one lives on it. These are skills one acquires living in a rural area, and usually you pay price to learn it! Mostly just a long walk to a farm house with a tractor and long steel cable.
Very heartbreaking. There was another couple stranded but rescued - barely - in the same general location last year (I think).
While he was surely underestimating the conditions (going out in jeans and tennis shoes for what he tought would be a few mile hike), The OREGON road people also have some respnsibility here, imo.
Ther eare hundreds of roads like this in rural parts of Oregon, and any one of them could claim a life in the winter. I've gotten lost several times, but i know no to go off main roaods in winter. But the path they took looks, on a map, to be prefectly reasonable.
ALL these remote and dangerous roads that can so easily be turned onto MUST be marked "Closed from Nov 01 to May 01" as other roads are.
There were errors in judgement all the way around here, resulting in a real tragedy.
But in the end, he was just a dad and husband trying to save his family in any way he could.
Sandy R
Posted by Don Miller on December 9, 2006 at 4:21 PM
Interesting to note they were relying on a paper map. Kim apparently mistakenly thought they were close to a significant road.
A GPS receiver and software for a laptop is now under a hundred dollars. I always have a detailed map (typically Delorme), but in the type of confusing area the Kims found themselves I always navigate by GPS. A GPS also reduces stress on the Navigator.
Anybody from the areas know how much snow the Kims likely faced? I picture a very wet rain/snow environment this time of year, but I don't know the area.
I guess I have to speak up at this point. I spent over 20 years dealing with this kind of thing in the commercial fishing industry around the country. Google my name and you'll find some of the awards for the work. Not the point, but I want to give myself a leg to stand on for saying the following:
Without the incident report on my desk and first-hand interviews with both the survivors and the searchers, I'm not going to criticize anything Mr. Kim did or did not do. I interviewed hundreds of maritime disaster survivors and rescuers over the years, comparing those details with official accounts. I also put in my time in the witness stand as an expert witness for both plaintiffs and defendants. News accounts are as holey as political promises and as poor a basis for making judgements.
There's more to think about. I'll illustrate it with a quick story:
Early in my efforts to learn lessons from the catastrophes and translate them into training programs, I told stories to classes to illustrate my points. Then it finally happened. I told about one particularly foolish victim and everything he did wrong. I took a break to follow a crying student out of the room, then spent an hour with her in quiet talk after learning she was the victim's sister. We found peace with it all, but I've never forgotten her face or the sound of her voice. I've also never used victim accounts again without knowing ALL the facts and being prepared to face survivors, DA's and aggressive attorneys.
On behalf of Mr. Kim's family and friends who might stumble across this thread, I think it's a good idea to limit speculation to how each of us might handle a similar situation and how we vow to be better prepared. His death is a tragedy and should serve more as a learning op than an a criticism op, if you see the difference.
Sorry about the soap box, but I imagine the faces of Mrs. Kim and their daughters as they read this someday. We'll never know the whole story. He did the best he could with the info and resources he had. We might not have done any better in the same situation.
Posted by Don Miller on December 9, 2006 at 9:23 PM
Hank, I think that's silly. I see over two THOUSAND separate news stories. There are probably tens of thousands of postings discussing this story. This is in the public domain and is very relevant to what most of us do and where we go. It is exceedingly easy for his family and friends to avoid googling "James Kim".
ALL the facts are never known.
Also, I see kindness in the postings here.
Experience is a great teacher in these matters Don. Not pointing fingers at anyone, but the speculation and comments here and elsewhere in the press and on the web are based on news accounts that are likely nine parts blue sky. The family and searchers aren't here to clarify or explain. Sharp commentary based upon news accounts has a high potential to be inaccurate and very hurtful, nonetheless.
Posted by Don Miller on December 10, 2006 at 11:39 AM
Okay, Don. Could you take it easy, please? This is a time for consolation, not arguing. Besides, I believe that the people of this community are paying tribute, in their own way, to Mr. Kim and his family. I offer my sincere condolances as well. It is so, so sad. My heart goes out to the Kims and to all the rescuers involved.
I suggest that as a lot of us are in the outdoors and facing the same risks and decisions and issues of judgement, perhaps we are all grieving a bit, too....
In my previous 20-year career, I also talked to victims of all kinds of disasters and terrible loss. I think that most of the responses on this thread have been heartfelt, especially including your post that started this thread. But Hank is right. If you're of the victim's family or circle of friends, any comments even suggesting criticism or second guesses to the "woulda, shoulda, oughta" of the tragedy are given in hindsight only and can have the unintended effect of inflicting guilt and emotional suffering upon the victims. If there is a gift to us of being witness to the unfolding of this adventure with its tragic conclusion, it is that we re-examine our own preparedness and limitations for outdoor travel. It could've been any of us in the same predicament.
Best wishes to all, and safe travels!
Posted by Don Miller on December 11, 2006 at 8:14 PM
All the high moral tone is nice, but it doesn't change the fact that anyone connected would need to actively search for this topic and intentionally open the thread. I am not grieving Mr. Kim. I did not know Mr. Kim. I do know that the fear of death and the denial of its inevitability leads to strange responses to stories like this. So for those genuinely morning a little but, here ya go:
obituaries.com
I'm sure these people are equally deserving as Mr. Kim. It's a long list. You don't want to be insensitive.
For those not grieving, I saw this good deal today on GPS plus software for a laptop. An inexpensive way to see if this type of setup is useful.
Don, I am sorry my comments came across that way. I meant to speak of kindness and awareness of all sides of a story or issue. I did not mean to moralize or preach to anyone. All of the responses here have spoken in some way to relating to what happened to the Kims. That includes all of your responses, too, along with your good advice about using GPS.
I, too, leave this thread with best wishes to you, and to all here.
Posted by Don Miller on December 12, 2006 at 10:19 AM
Empathy is not grieving. People cry at fiction.
Posted by Don Miller on December 14, 2006 at 3:29 PM
Back to the practical side of this discussion, the smartest, illegal to use (in the U.S.) emergency communication device may be a VHF air band transceiver. Most commercial aircraft in line-of-sight will hear a call on the emergency channel. Less than $200.
Discussion
28 repliesThis story sure motivates me to stay prepared. As a group we probably look for marginal and bad conditions more than any other hobby/vocation.
As a father I understand why he tried to walk out. I wish he had a little more knowledge of how to stay alive. He probably had the same thought.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/West/03/10/stranded.couple.ap/
Guy
Like all good Scouts, we should "Be Prepared".
I understand why people take such actions to protect and care for their families. Oftentimes the emotional ties are so strong as to undermine sound judgement in a crisis situation. So, being prepared also means having a plan that can be easily adapted to one's current situation.
-PB
From what I've read today in the local papers, this guy and wife were much more resourceful than a lot of people would be. Although in winter they say never leave your car, I'm sure after several days, he figured noone was coming and had no choice but to go find help. Almost a no win situation if you ask me. That area is really rugged and really steep. Trackers couldn't believe the path he took, saying he was incredibly strong and determined. The rescuers were even having trouble climbing some of the steep terain he did.
What a tragedy.
Kent in SD
One of the most interesting things that has now come out is that he stuck to the road until ...get this, a bear started following him. The trackers sent to find him are now saying there are bear tracks clearly showing it pursuing him and that's when he left the road. That's what's being reported on the local news anyway. ??
I can't imagine being in a situation like this. I also can't believe how careless I've been in the past heading out into the wilderness.
On a lighter note, this area is unbelievably beautiful if you are ever in southern Oregon. Great place for photography.
The article I read said he walked 8 miles but was only a mile from his car when he died. I would like to think he heard the aircraft from the direction of his car, and knew his wife and kids made it.
One thought I take from this event is the need to decide on a plan and stick to it (unless there are major changes in the environment). Fear and depression after seven day in the car is not the time to change the plan and start walking.
But that's not a criticism. It sounds like they did everything within their ability and knowledge. And James didn't make a mistake that killed his wife and children. I'm sure after four or five days in the car he would be very satisfied with this ending. I would.
Probably one of the most important items I keep in the truck at all times is a half dozen or more, 15 minute-burning, highway safety flares. No matter how wet or green wood may be, the safety flares will start a fire pronto! Highway safety flares burn hot enough to cut steel railroad rails. I also carry my spare tire in the back of the truck rather than keeping it stashed under the truck in the spare tire rack. If necessary you can burn it for a signal fire.
Always, without fail, tell someone exactly where you are going and the anticipated route. If at all possible, do not deviate from that route. If you do have to, make a phone call from the nearest town or from your cell phone and let someone know your plans have changed. If you are caught in bad weather DON"T LEAVE YOUR VEHICLE! I used to be a member of a search and rescue team in the 1970s. I can't tell you how many more rescues would have had successful conclusions if people would have just stayed with their vehicle.
In hot weather I carry double the amount of water and still carry all of the above mentioned gear. In hot weather I carry a shade canopy that attaches to the back of my camper shell, too. I did break down one time out in the desert and had to be "found". I told my wife exactly where I was going and when I didn't return home when I was supposed to she called the county sheriff and I had help in less than 24 hrs.
It just doesn't take much to suddenly find yourself in a predicament. Being prepared makes a predicament manageable.
Pete D.
Regardless, a very sad story, but at least the wife and children were rescued.
The hardest part is admitting our own mistakes soon enough. The most serious mistakes are travelling without suitable clothing and supplies for emergencies, then getting into situations beyond your own or your vehicle's capabilities. It's pretty easy to convince yourself to pack emergency gear for recreating in the back country, but tough to do so for drives in the family sedan.
I could probably start a new civilization with the emergency gear in the several trucks we use for backcountry travel. But there's virtually nothing in the sedan we drive on deserted icy mountain roads in the dark- 70 miles round trip just to get to the grocery store! The emergecny gear is expensive, bulky and always in the way, so it tends to stay home.
Speaking on a very personal level, the hardest things for me to do are to admit when I'm lost or to ask for directions. It reminds me of my daughter's favorite one-liner about why it takes millions of sperm to fertilize a single egg---- because none of them will stop and ask for directions.
Every other "mistake" they made were mistakes in hindsight only and totally understandable given what they knew, or thought they knew, at the time. In burning their tires, they were probably more resourceful than I would have been.
What a tragedy.
Scott
Kent in SD
While he was surely underestimating the conditions (going out in jeans and tennis shoes for what he tought would be a few mile hike), The OREGON road people also have some respnsibility here, imo.
Ther eare hundreds of roads like this in rural parts of Oregon, and any one of them could claim a life in the winter. I've gotten lost several times, but i know no to go off main roaods in winter. But the path they took looks, on a map, to be prefectly reasonable.
ALL these remote and dangerous roads that can so easily be turned onto MUST be marked "Closed from Nov 01 to May 01" as other roads are.
There were errors in judgement all the way around here, resulting in a real tragedy.
But in the end, he was just a dad and husband trying to save his family in any way he could.
Sandy R
A GPS receiver and software for a laptop is now under a hundred dollars. I always have a detailed map (typically Delorme), but in the type of confusing area the Kims found themselves I always navigate by GPS. A GPS also reduces stress on the Navigator.
Anybody from the areas know how much snow the Kims likely faced? I picture a very wet rain/snow environment this time of year, but I don't know the area.
Without the incident report on my desk and first-hand interviews with both the survivors and the searchers, I'm not going to criticize anything Mr. Kim did or did not do. I interviewed hundreds of maritime disaster survivors and rescuers over the years, comparing those details with official accounts. I also put in my time in the witness stand as an expert witness for both plaintiffs and defendants. News accounts are as holey as political promises and as poor a basis for making judgements.
There's more to think about. I'll illustrate it with a quick story:
Early in my efforts to learn lessons from the catastrophes and translate them into training programs, I told stories to classes to illustrate my points. Then it finally happened. I told about one particularly foolish victim and everything he did wrong. I took a break to follow a crying student out of the room, then spent an hour with her in quiet talk after learning she was the victim's sister. We found peace with it all, but I've never forgotten her face or the sound of her voice. I've also never used victim accounts again without knowing ALL the facts and being prepared to face survivors, DA's and aggressive attorneys.
On behalf of Mr. Kim's family and friends who might stumble across this thread, I think it's a good idea to limit speculation to how each of us might handle a similar situation and how we vow to be better prepared. His death is a tragedy and should serve more as a learning op than an a criticism op, if you see the difference.
Sorry about the soap box, but I imagine the faces of Mrs. Kim and their daughters as they read this someday. We'll never know the whole story. He did the best he could with the info and resources he had. We might not have done any better in the same situation.
ALL the facts are never known.
Also, I see kindness in the postings here.
Okay, Don. Could you take it easy, please? This is a time for consolation, not arguing. Besides, I believe that the people of this community are paying tribute, in their own way, to Mr. Kim and his family. I offer my sincere condolances as well. It is so, so sad. My heart goes out to the Kims and to all the rescuers involved.
I suggest that as a lot of us are in the outdoors and facing the same risks and decisions and issues of judgement, perhaps we are all grieving a bit, too....
In my previous 20-year career, I also talked to victims of all kinds of disasters and terrible loss. I think that most of the responses on this thread have been heartfelt, especially including your post that started this thread. But Hank is right. If you're of the victim's family or circle of friends, any comments even suggesting criticism or second guesses to the "woulda, shoulda, oughta" of the tragedy are given in hindsight only and can have the unintended effect of inflicting guilt and emotional suffering upon the victims. If there is a gift to us of being witness to the unfolding of this adventure with its tragic conclusion, it is that we re-examine our own preparedness and limitations for outdoor travel. It could've been any of us in the same predicament.
Best wishes to all, and safe travels!
obituaries.com
I'm sure these people are equally deserving as Mr. Kim. It's a long list. You don't want to be insensitive.
For those not grieving, I saw this good deal today on GPS plus software for a laptop. An inexpensive way to see if this type of setup is useful.
http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Streets-Trips-2006-Locator/dp/B000AOGDM0/sr=8-2/qid=1165885885/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/102-0354182-2239326?ie=UTF8&s=software
http://news.com.com/Survival+and+prevention+tips+Share+your+suggestions/2100-1028_3-6142286.html
If someone chooses to grieve for someone they do not know, that in my opinion is at the highest level of blessedness..
I am leaving this thread now, and will not visit it again.
Kind regards,
-PB
I, too, leave this thread with best wishes to you, and to all here.