Posted by Marc Adamus on January 28, 2007 at 11:02 PM
I'd like to see a little more of it. I mean, why are we posting here anyway? I'm not ever mean or condensending in critiquing photographs, but I am trying to make my very best attempt to find something that can be improved, and to stimulate conversation/input from others that will help everyone as photographers. In my estimation, around 80-90% of all comments given here are short and simply congratulatory. Many lack substance that would help us learn as photographers, or at least give us some other perspective to think about.
It's simple: If you like it, why? If you don't, why? It's usually a little of both. Figure this out every time you see a new image and you as well as the photographer who took the image might learn something. Rarely will people ever unanimously agree on a particular point, it is art afterall, but making suggestions is a good way to get everyone thinking. I know I take it to heart if even one viewer takes the time to suggest something.
This should be easy to accomplish while still maintaining a great community here. Even if it means less comments, a sincere and thoughtful one means much more than ten 'great shot' replys IMO.
Even if you are a new photographer one of the best ways to learn is critiquing the work of others. There is no such thing as feeling 'unqualified' to offer a suggestion. In fact, even as an established photographer myself, I greatly value comments from beginners or even non-photographers. You don't usually need any experience to know what you like or don't like when it comes to pictures.
Posted by Kent Mearig on January 28, 2007 at 11:34 PM
There are many many people who participate in this group by posting photographs, and it’s safe to bet that in that variety of people, there are different expectations for these forums. Lots of the photographers here are like you [Marc] and appreciate (maybe more than anything else) suggestions for ways to make their photographs more expressive or attractive. Plenty of other photographers may have an entirely different motivation (sometimes that includes me).
One way to improve in photography is to gain confidence, which is something that plenty of beginning photographers don’t have that much of. It’s good that most of us learn early on that we’ve got a long way to go before our images match up with much more experienced photographers, but that notion can also be a roadblock. If someone only has time to write one or two detailed replies each time they log on, and they’re discouraged from giving brief encouragements or praises, there are a good number of posters who miss out on the boost in confidence they need. I might post a photo thinking it’s the best I’ve ever created; I would be bummed to get only five comments from people who can see different aspects that need improvement.
I’m getting a little bit long winded, so tell me what you think so far.
Posted by Marc Adamus on January 28, 2007 at 11:56 PM
I guess you raise a good point, Kent, allthough I think we can have the best of both worlds here. It just comes down to how you express critique. If all you meniton is what you don't like then obviously there will be some discouragement among beginners, so it's important to emphasize the greater positives as well. I can't personally understand why a person would post an image to a forum like this and expect to get nothing but congratulatory comments. The "Art of Image Critique" found in the posting guidelines here expresses that critique is encouraged as long as it is well meaning and polite, and goes on to mention that if a person was not prepared to accept opinions on their images they should not have posted it. I think the phrase 'constructive critisism' applies here. Many times my goal is to express both the fact that I like the image but also offer some things to think about.
Lastly, I will say that I have found your critiques to be among the most thoughtful and constructive I have seen.
Posted by Kent Mearig on January 29, 2007 at 12:22 AM
I agree 100% that we should be trying for the best of both worlds. There are some instances where I find a completely positive and vague remark to be appropriate and helpful, but in many cases they aren't really helpful at all. Another thought is that if someone has experience with a particular forum it should begin to be obvious that certain photographers don't benefit much to blanket praise for their images (forum moderators and photographers with a professional background are obvious). After identifying those people, you can save yourself the time of writing five or six WOW-this-is-really-great's, and write them thorough and pointed critiques.
Now, does anyone else want to defend themself?
Just kidding; it's good to get this out there. There's not much sense in lots of peopel telling you good job and leaving it at that when you post an image we only get to take in our dreams.
Posted by Jim Goldstein on January 29, 2007 at 4:26 AM
I actually enjoy giving more detailed critiques but always feel pressured by limited time to do so. As it stands my wife thinks I'm addicted to photo sites. It would be nice to get more meaningful critiques, but of all the sites I've been to this is one of the best in regard to quality of talent and even critiques on the "fluffy" side carry more weight to me.
Posted by Lon Overacker on January 29, 2007 at 4:40 AM
Marc,
Thanks for starting this discussion. I tend to agree with your general premise and enjoy both receiving and providing thoughtful critiques. There are a number of things I struggle with however; providing responses and critiques beyond "nice image," does take more time. While I've been making an effort to respond to as many posts as I can, it's not practical to respond to all of them. Like you Marc, as well as many others, I choose as often as possible, to provide positive comments and constructive criticism as well. Although not everyone specifically states they want comments and critique, by default this is an image critique forum (at least part of NPN is anyway) and I think critiques should be expected.
There are of course a select number of images that need no critique, just accolades.
I agree, and this is a good point, that both the top experienced photographer as well as the beginner's beginner, can learn from providing critiques. This also ties in to previous posts; asking the question, do we learn from viewing images from forums like this? So do we learn and grow from providing thoughtful responses on forums like this? I think we do. One thing I have learned here is to be able to provide some positive response to images that might have technical flaws or images that don't appeal to me. It's helped me grow as a photographer.
I'm only pointing out the obvious when I say that there are as many different personalities as there are different images. We all have our own styles, photographic and otherwise. I'm generally quiet in person, but can chatter with the best of them on a keyboard. Other's, may hate typing, love photography and are satisfied with nothing more than, "Wow, beautiful." And that's ok too.
Would it be a stretch if I said there are two basic powers working here? Ego, and ego. Perhaps Kent mentioned the same thing and called it confidence, but I believe confidence is based on our ego, good and bad. I can freely admit that I have a photographic ego. I love the "ooh's and ah's." At the same time, I yearn to improve, expand my abilities and truly welcome constructive criticism to help me expand.
In addition to responding to images, I would encourage posters of images to provide more details about the image posted; why did you take the picture?, what were the circumstances? Why do you like it? and what kind of comments or critique are you looking for? I personally enjoy reading the short anecdotes about the photographer's experience. It adds so much to what otherwise is just a one-dimensional image.
Anyway, I could go on, but I'm getting sleepy-eyed.
Lon
Posted by Gary Crabbe on January 29, 2007 at 4:56 AM
Marc:
Kent raises a great point. One of my best classes in college was an upper division psych class called, "Group Dynamics". It also boasted the thickest textbook of my entire scholastic career. At some point, we'd all like to sway a group into our own perspective. Personally, I'd like to do that to Congress and the upcoming Orphan Works ammendment to the Copyright Laws. The only problem I have is that sometimes my expectations don't match with what the larger group desires or requires.
On another personal note, I've appreciated NPN above all other similar sites, because this is the one site where a real critique can be well given and well received. Sure, time is a factor - especially for the "atta boy / girl" comments vs. more thourough and thoughtful replies. But everywhere else I've seen, the group dynamics either inhibit critiques because they are poorly received by people with overly weak or strong egos, or they are poorly given, even to the point of being mean. So you're left with all you can say is good job, or have a skin of armor and a taste for blood in the water.
btw - One reason I don't post as much as I like is that I *have* to make time to make thoughtful replies to X number of images for each time I post. - just a personal 'rule'. I'd rather tell one person something helpful, in a positive way, or express my own opinion with some type of reasoned explaination than give 10 people a "nice shot" with nothing more to say.
Cheers,
Posted by Mike Moats on January 29, 2007 at 8:11 AM
Marc,
I think that someone posting a image should state what their looking for in a comment about the image. I know in the Flora catagory, Nathan Buck always includes "brutally honest thoughts appreciated" which opens the door for me to feel comfortable to make comments if the image doesn't apeal to me, or any info on how I would improve it, and of couse if I like it, I tell him why. This tells me that Nathan has thick enough skin to handle any criticism. If the poster does not include that he or she is looking for suggestions on improving the image, then I would just tell them what I like, but wouldnt give any ideas of improvements.
So I believe if someone is open for suggestions on any improvement of their image, it shouild be stated when its posted, other wise if its not, I would not try to offer any help.
Good thread Marc, lots of good comments. I do appreciate the last paragraph in your first post. As a fairly new photographer who hasn’t posted a lot I tend to hesitate on commenting on certain people’s works, including your’s. It can be intimidating to be the lone dissenter in a group of atta-boy/girl comments. And, as a recently disappeared thread showed, not everyone is open to comments about their images.
I agree with Lon. I’m much more likely to feel comfortable commenting on an image if the poster has indicated what they were trying to capture or why they took the photograph than if they just slap up a photo with some tech-specs. I also don’t post too many comments because I really like to “analyze” the photo to find what I can learn from it. As Gary mentioned, I’d rather post one or two critiques than 10 atta-boys/girls.
Cheers,
Alex
Posted by Dan Baumbach on January 29, 2007 at 10:58 AM
Marc,
I agree with you that more detailed critiques would be helpful. However with so many images and so little time, I find that it's hard for me to do that in each case. As a moderator, I make it my business to look at every image on ES&S. Sometimes the image moves me or not. Sometimes I have something to say about it and sometimes I don't. I don't have the time to sit there and work out a critique. If I a critique comes to me that I think would be helpful, then I post it. If I just think the photo is beautiful, then I say so. If the photo does nothing for me, I don't think that just saying that is particularly helpful unless I can say something that would improve it so usually I just say nothing.
More detailed critiques would be nice but I don't have that luxury and I also wonder if people really want them. It's very rare when I've offered a detailed critique that I ever get a response from the photographer. I'm also wary of offering a criticism when every else is just saying "great shot"
Just one more addition on critiques. I posted an image on Saturday on ES&S and most of the critiques were on the negative side. I want all of you to know that I really appreciated that. I felt that you really must care about me and my work to say that. So, thank you all.
- Dan.
Moderator ES&S
Posted by David Bostedo on January 29, 2007 at 11:25 AM
I find myself posting a lot of comments, and, admittedly, some of them are just "atta-boys". However, sometimes I think this is helpful if only to know that others like your photo. Because of the personal attachment to some photos, I find that I like some more than other people do, and vice-versa. In some cases, especially for a newer photographer, I think just realizing that what you thought was nice actually IS nice can be helpful.
For some of you, though (Marc, Darwin, Guy, Bob, etc.) I can completely understand that simple "nice one" comments are OK, but don't provide much value. But for me, posting something that gets a lot of "nice one" comments would be a small accomplishment.
And I've got to disagree a little with Mike Moats - I think honest critique should be the assumption here - the photographer shouldn't have to ask for it. If they know the photo has problems, or don't really want suggestions, or particular types of comments, they should have to note that in the post. Otherwise, as long as everyone is polite and constructive, the photo is open for any comment. Just my 2 cents.
Posted by Marc Adamus on January 29, 2007 at 11:41 AM
Thanks for the responses on this folks. It seems most of us are in agreement that more detailed image critiques would be helpful.
David, I also agree that if you are posting here, recieving honest critique should be assumed. I don't believe that you should need to declare in your post that you want critique for it to be given, although saying something like Bill or Nathan often do - "honest and brutal critiques appreciated" certainly helps open the door for critique.
Gary, your point about the NPN community is well understood. We're walking a fine line here, and as a veteran of more than a dozen other sites myself, I know how the general atmosphere and mood of the community can change for the worse if photographers become too aggressive or competitive. It is very important to make every effort to be as polite as possible, especially if someone is new to the forums, as not to make the wrong impression about NPN.
And yes, I know that most everyone is pressed for time. Still, as many people have expressed, just a few meaningful critiques are often worth more than another one-line pat on the back. That said, I'm sure that even a complimentary comment is still better than none at all.
Posted by William Vrolyk on January 29, 2007 at 12:24 PM
I am not afraid to say so if something about an image does not work for me. It is a little disconcerting if my critique is surrounded by kudos and noone "agrees" with me. It could cause the poster to think "what does he know? Nonetheless, what I write is my honest feeling and reaction to your work. Your work meaning all who post on NPN. And it should be noted that I always have something good to say about your work too and that is given with honest feeling as well. Perhaps the risk of being alone with your critique is the greatest challenge for anyone who comments. Still, alone or not, I stick to what I said.
Interesting topic of discussion you've started here. I believe you and the others here have made some very valid points, both pro & con.
This is a tricky issue to try & bring about a hard & fast resolution to. It would seem to me, that the arguments for or against the simple "congrats" type of image replies are entirely subjective. Beginning photog's as well as newcomers to this site,.. could.. be discouraged by a critique that is perceived as negative. Regardless of the intent or reassurances of the person giving the critique.
I also agree with the position that,.. some... disservice is done if a person posting an image is looking for input for improvement on a particular image (whether they state that desire specifically or not) and receives only "atta boy's/girl's!! without any substantive information. This person may perceive this as "fluff", or a waste of their effort in posting the image in the first place!
I believe that key here is, "perceived"!! An individual's perception is so subjective that, for another person to take responsibility for how something,.. could... be perceived, would effectively paralyze them. Rendering the stated intent & purpose for this site moot!! Yet how many of us have such unwavering confidence in our own ability, that we're oblivious to the possible consequences of (actual or perceived) injury to another's Ego? I haven't encountered anyone here who strikes me as that insensitive!! Having been injured in the past, (and not liking it much,) I find I try to be careful not to inflict that on another, intended or not.
One point I haven't heard here, (Ooops,.. I see David Bostedo beat me to this point while I was writing it) involves yet another subjective issue. On occasion, when I've shared my images with people, I find I'm often surprised by which ones they feel are the most moving. Frequently they'll choose an image that I feel isn't particularly special, and almost as often they'll flip right past images that I think are some of my best with hardly a glance!! Again, I suppose it's an entirely subjective preference. One that I'm not always able to anticipate.
My point being,.. that a flurry of "great shot's" for a given post. Can serve, not only to bolster a persons confidence in their talent/ability. It might also be instrumental in the process of learning objectively, which images to choose for printing, marketing or submission.
Another thing I've noticed in regards to many of the "established" shooters. More than a few of you seem to have more experience (as well as talent) with "writing". Speaking for myself, I've read many a discussion here that I intended to comment on only to realize that I could not be nearly as eloquent or articulate in expressing my point of view as compared to some who had already weighed in on the subject. (Heck,.. I almost didn't post this!! ) Just as it is in photography. Not all of us have the same level of ability. We have trouble trying to put our thoughts & feelings into words as coherently or effectively as others. (although I do believe it's worth the effort to try) I think it's entirely possible that folks might not be willing to comment at all if they felt they were required to be "scholarly" about it!
Much of my attraction and desire to get involved in nature photography in the first place, was my reaction, emotionally to the images I saw. The spontaneous "Gasp" or "Wow"!! I emitted when I saw an image that really moved me. I wanted to create something that made people react like that!! If that's Ego (large "E"), so be it! Often that's what I'm hoping will happen with an image I post here. Personally, I can think of no higher praise than to be rendered monosyllabic by a photograph.!!! If ever an image of mine garners such a response I'll be quite happy.
Besides all the above. Aside from being a passion, an avocation, an obsession, and profession,.. photography can also be FUN!!! Sometimes it's nice just to simply know, "you like me, You really really like me"!! (My images I mean, of course)
Lastly,.. Marc, you are probably going to hate me for this given your stated position on critiques, but honestly what are you looking to improve upon? I checked out the links to your personal sites & portfolios. Damn man, if your images get any better than they already are,.. I'm not gonna have any reason to reason to take my camera's out of their case.!! Seriously, your landscapes render me speechless! IMO you certainly have every right to an abundance of confidence with regards to your images. I find you work to be quite spectacular & I certainly aspire to the same level of excellence in my own photography.! (I suppose that means I'll have to "gird my loins", "swallow my pride", and brace my ego for your input on my landscape post's if I hope to achieve that level, eh? ) Hope I can take it!!!
Thank you Marc for a thought provoking topic!
Craig
Posted by Lon Overacker on January 29, 2007 at 1:56 PM
Perhaps the risk of being alone with your critique is the greatest challenge for anyone who comments.
Will, I think this is significant as it relates to posting critiques. This is much more prevalent in other forum communities. To me, it can reach an unbearable point when an established member get's nothing but "great shot," "you continue to amaze me," comments and no one steps up to break up the happy party. I think it is a challenge as Will mentions, to be the one person who points out the distracting element, the tilted horizon or that small washed out section of a waterfall.
This is a big reason why I find the NPN forums so different and much better than other photo communities because I don't feel there is a "good ole boy" mentality; everyone treats everyone the same, regardless of skill level. There also is no superiority attitudes of Nikon vs Canon, film, vs. digital, 4x5 vs 5D, etc. etc. It's such a pleasure to absorb, enjoy, and critique images on their merit, artistry and impact.
Another challenge I have that has only been touched on is responding to your own post. My general rule (like Gary, I have my own rules.... ) is that I try to only respond once to my original post to thank everyone for their comments and/or to post a re-worked image from suggestions. What I'm afraid of, and challenged on is, posting a response for the sake of posting and getting the image back to the top of the que. That's another posting etiquette that happens frequently elsewhere and not here, which I am thankful for. On the other hand, it's nice to hear that someone appreciates your time and effort in offering responses and critiques.
Lon
Posted by Marc Adamus on January 29, 2007 at 2:03 PM
>>"My point being,.. that a flurry of "great shot's" for a given post. Can serve, not only to bolster a persons confidence in their talent/ability. It might also be instrumental in the process of learning objectively, which images to choose for printing, marketing or submission."
This is a strong point, Craig. However, when I look at all that we must go through in life to succeed, from our schooling to our daily jobs, the road to success is never made entirely of praise. Praise must be earned, and those who rise to the top strive to learn from the critics whenever possible. This is art, so everything is ultimately left up to some interpretation and there certainly is no right/wrong answer at any point, but the more opinions we are able to hear - good, bad or both, the more we can learn about the way others interpret our work. That said, a lot of people are posting work here recreationally and I wouldn't want to drive them off. This should be a fun place as well as a learning venue, so lets never be too harsh or go out of our way to stress negatives.
As to my work, of course I appreciate the compliments, but you could probably guess I'm my own toughest critic. That perfect picture is still out there and always will be. Take my ES&S 2006 Editor's Pick "Magic Mountain", for example. The clouds blurred by a longer exposure have always bugged me a little and I wish the wildflowers in the foreground showed up better. I feel like I have to have the mindset that there is always something to be improved upon, otherwise I couldn't continue to grow as a photographer.
Posted by Marc Adamus on January 29, 2007 at 2:08 PM
>>"What I'm afraid of, and challenged on is, posting a response for the sake of posting and getting the image back to the top of the que."
We all owe Jim a huge thank-you for the organization, managment and layout of this site, which creates fair opportunity for everyone to been seen and heard equally.
Posted by Bruce Painter on January 29, 2007 at 2:08 PM
This is a very interesting thread. Thanks for starting it Marc.
As someone fairly new at posting photos on NPN, I started doing so because I want to learn and improve. I feel that be getting comments from some of the best nature photographers around (that means all of you even if you are new too) is a great way to improve. I take all comments on my photos to heart no matter who gives them. While it's great for the ego to get an "atta boy" from the pros I also want to be told what you like about it AND what you don't. If all I wanted was to stroke my ego and just the good comments I would look for a site with less talent than I find here, so all comments on my photos are always welcome. Since being encouraged by Bill Chambers to comment more instead of just post photos I have tried to give a couple of critiques a day at least if I can. After starting this I have found, for one thing, that I have started to notice things in others images that I would often overlook in my own work. Maybe after doing this for awhile I'll start to notice it in my work during the process instead of after the fact. I can now see how trying to critique the works of others in a thoughtful way can help my own photography. I also try to look for photos with few comments instead of the ones that already have 20 or 30 comments.
One thing I like about NPN is the ability of its members to give help to others without being cruel.
Bruce
Posted by Mike Moats on January 29, 2007 at 2:41 PM
What I like about NPN, or any other sites like NPN, is that I get to view images from around the world of different environments that I'll never get to witness for myself. Or a great macro shot of some intimate scene in nature that only happened for a brief moment in time, and is now gone forever. I post to show others of a small part of my world that only I see, and now thanks to the internet, and people like Jim, who has put this site together, I can share these images. I think NPN is a great tool for someone looking to advance their skills, and with all the great talent here someone can improve rapidly, but I still think they should respond in their post that they are looking for that kind of information. I don't assume because someone posts a image, that they want my opinion on how to make it better. I always comment on images that move me with a good review of that image, but without advice unless the poster asked for it. I like comments on my images to hear that it made someone connect and feel good with a image I thought was special enough to shoot and share with everyone. It would be interesting to know how many people are here just to post images, and are not interested in advice on how to improve their image, and those seeking help.
I hope you realize my first reply to this topic was supposed to be ironic. Anyhow, I don't comment very much, but when I do I always try to say something about the photograph. A lot of times I am thinking about how the photographer arranged things in the frame. If I see something that is influencing how I feel about the photograph, I'll explain what it is. It can only ever be a partial explanation though. I'm just gathering visual/psychological puzzle pieces and storing them for my own use later. It would be nice if others found my comments useful, but to be honest, it really doesn't matter. Only once was I told that I made a stupid a** comment (and it was not about an image critique). I'm sure people often don't know what the heck I'm talking about, but that's ok. I know what I mean. Know what I mean?
Pete D.
Posted by Richard Wong on January 29, 2007 at 5:19 PM
Constructive criticism is a very subjective term, as demonstrated by Mr. Fred Thompson the other day on this forum. I found that thread to be amusing, but in general what I like most about NPN is that it isn't photo.net.
I try my best to say something useful even if it's explaining why I like something. To be honest, I would give a serious down and dirty critique if I knew it would be welcome. However I don't know anything about most of the people here so it is a learning process to critique new people as well so no toes are stepped on. On the net it's easy to take a critique as criticism or misconstrued as pretentiousness because the words have no context from which to draw from. I'm basically sarcastic most of the time in real life but I know that doesn't really work the same way on an internet critique forum.
Posted by Lon Overacker on January 29, 2007 at 5:37 PM
Speaking of learning new things... I just now realized something very much related to this thread. I just posted an image in ES&S. My personal critique is that this is just a picture of some clouds. We can all point our camera to the sky and click the shutter - nothing creative or original about it. So where I'm leading is that I now realize that I don't really expect any lengthy thoughtful responses on this particular image. "great sky!" is simple enough and is appreciated. See sky, click.
So, not only do we as photographers respond and critique differently, the images themselves can warrant simple attaboy's or more in depth, thoughtful responses.
Just thought I would drop this in after the light bulb went on.
BTW.... Craig, I understand and agree that not everyone can express in words what they're thinking. However, don't knock yourself down on that account! You're message was clear, well thought out and point well expressed!
I find it astonishing to expect someone to leave a "meaningful" review without providing any background on the intent behind the photo, one's photographic style, etc. Many of the posts just say things like:
Camera a, lens b, filter c, etc. Thats it!
What am I, as a reviewer, supposed to do. Guess? Of course, if I am really interested in the photograph I can ask releveant questions and get the information I need, but my point is why should I be made to do all the work. Can't the person wanting a good review take some time to provide this upfront?
In the absence of such information the best I can do is write a few words indicating what I like or don't like about the photo. I would never (ever) try and push my photographic style onto another, just because I don't happen to agree with what they did. A lot of the reviewers do exactly this and I don't see how it can foster creativity. The most this will do is make everyone conform to one (call it the NPN) standard. To me photography is more than just one way of doing things...more than one way of seeing the world.
Now if the person posting the photograph said something about why they made the photo in the manner they did and what their intentions were, perhaps the person offering critique might have been able to help them realize their goals.
Just for the record, all comments and critques are welcomed on my images. I'm here to learn and the only way to do that is get honest opinions from photographers equally or more skilled than me. If I don't know the author and his work, I view that person's portfolio so I can make a decision as to how seriously I should take their suggestions. The issues raised by others on this thread have, in all honesty, shown me that I should be more careful in deciding whether to critque others, some of whom may not want suggestions. But, for me it is far worse to get no comments than to get an honest critque, good, bad or just different from my own view.
Posted by Paul Grecian on January 29, 2007 at 7:34 PM
Anil,
I have been of the same opinion as you on this for a while. You state it perfectly.
Anil, I agree with you completely, and in fact I provide very different feedback depending on how much information the poster had provided and whether they stated what they want.
I don't really see this as a problem. NPN caters to beginners and accomplished photographers and you can't assume they all want the type of information. With nothing else to go on, I will comment on technique and general aesthetics. With a more thoughtful images where the poster communicated clearly what they were after I can comment on emotional appeal, personal connection, or anything else specifically asked.
I try to comment on as many images as I can because I feel it prompts others to do the same. At times I will have more or less to say and/or more or less time to say it but generally as moderator I want to see the forum active so generally I opt for volume rather than in-depth reviews unless explicitly requested by the poster. I certainly don't expect anyone else to do the same, but I do hope each member will give something back to the community every now and then.
Guy
Posted by Bob Steele on January 29, 2007 at 7:50 PM
Anil said:
I find it astonishing to expect someone to leave a "meaningful" review without providing any background on the intent behind the photo, one's photographic style, etc. Many of the posts just say things like:
Camera a, lens b, filter c, etc. Thats it!
What am I, as a reviewer, supposed to do. Guess?[snip]
Oh boy, did you hit this nail on the head. I've written over 12,000 critiques (mostly in Avian) since this software went live. My most meaningful critiques are always to those who ask for specific feedback. Don't ask and you'll most likely get not much more from me than an 'attaboy' for a solid image, or a comment or two about the technical aspects of the image. How can I do more?
Guy: My response was basically to Marc's original question about wanting to see more meaningful critiques. I understand that not everybody is looking for this; therefore when no information is provided the most I can do is write about what I like or don't like about the photo. In such cases, I cannot suggest any ways to improve the photograph, simply because I don't know what the photographer was after. BTW, I am sure that there are many others who will agree with me, when I say that we can't thank you enough for all that you do here on NPN. It is for this reason that I dedicated my last post on ESS to you.
When I post an image, I always ask for comments and critiques and I really want the critiques. I have incorporated many suggestions into prints and have benefited greatly from the info. I don't mind straight from the hip on my photos.
I like to make honest comments on the posts of others, but as many have stated above, it is really hard to know how it will be taken. For those I feel want some honest feedback, I am much more willing to give it.
Posted by David Bostedo on January 29, 2007 at 8:10 PM
Please pardon my inexperience (if that's why I'm thinking this way), but I don't quite understand why specific information has to be asked for to give a full critique (per Anil, Bob, Paul, and Guy's posts).
I'm thinking of it this way - if you just saw a print hanging on a wall, with no one else around, wouldn't you think about whether or not you liked it, why, what could have been better, how you might have done it, how it makes you feel, what it reminds you of, etc. If so, can't this just be put - however briefly - into words? Is it simply that we don't take the time if it's not specifically asked for? (since perhaps they don't want that information...)
You have asked a valid question, so let me try and explain what I was refering to.
If no information is provided, the situation is very much like a photo competition. Note that this is different from the gallery example, where one usually finds a good artist statement (or some such other documentation) that describes the intent, creative technique/process etc. behind the making of the print.
There is nothing inherently wrong with the photo-competition (or blind) style of commenting on an image. However, in this case it is more the view of the person offering the critique that comes though and I cannot understand how that will end up helping the person who made the photograph. For example, I was always amused when someone (generally a new person to NPN) would look at a Mark Hobson photo and say that it is suffering from vignetting. Or, after seeing an Eric Fredine post would say that the horizon is too centered.
If the person posting an image also wrote about about their intent, and the person offering feedback took that into consideration, the resulting critique should be more helpful to the photographer in realizing his/her goals. Isn't this what we are trying to do here, i.e. help the folks who are posting realize their goals? I cannot speak for everyone, but I surely don't want to make photos like others. Instead, I'd really appreaciate any and all help that will help me improve my own photography. I would also like to help others improve their (own) photography, but they must make the effort to tell me what is it they are after.
Posted by David Bostedo on January 29, 2007 at 8:43 PM
Thanks for clarifying Anil - but I can still see benefits to blind commenting. If you had a photo that you felt exhibited a certain mood or mystery, it might help to hear if anyone feels the same without prompting. I suppose I've always thought that what you are trying to convey should come through in the photo stand-alone (even if it's simply "This is a beautiful"). I've never considered extra text as part of a formal presentation (haven't been to many shows or galleries).
I can certainly see what you are getting at - and I agree with you to a large extent. But if a viewer only sees the, for instance, peaceful mood of the scene when you prompt them, is it really successful? And there are images that multiple people love, but never connect with the same way. I suppose prompting wouldn't prevent people's honest opinions, but it could.
You are right, David. And that is what I have been doing when I offer comments in the absence of relevant information from the poster. Like I said in my reply to Guy, this is not a bad thing at all. However, my reason for bringing all this up was to address Marc's original question regarding more "meaningful" comments". Simply saying "This is beautiful" serves a purpose but its not meaningful enough for me.
Posted by Paul Grecian on January 29, 2007 at 9:18 PM
I think there is a confusion about the difference between a critique and an opinion. Opinions only tell you what someone else likes or dislikes about your work. A critique should tell you how your work relates to other work and/or how closely it meets the intended purpose of the maker. Critiques are very hard and usually given by very experienced and educated people. An opinion may be given by anyone whether involved with the medium or not. Both offer useful, but usually very different insight. The idea that you can become a better photographer by following opinion is only true if you want your work to look like theirs. This is especially true if you don't know what you were trying to do visually in the first place. However, a good critique is an examination of what you are doing and allows you to judge better if that is what you wanted to do. I think.
Paul
Posted by Eric Fredine on January 29, 2007 at 9:34 PM
Paul: the difference between critique and opinion is an important distinction that is often missed. Good point.
Posted by Bill Chambers on January 29, 2007 at 10:37 PM
Great thread Marc. These topic has been kicked around a lot in previous threads and it always results in increased comment/critique activity (for awhile at least). I'm speaking about ESS now because that's the forum I post almost exclusively on - the volume of posts seems to have grown greatly just in the past few months, and it becomes harder and harder to just view all of them, much less comment/critique them. In addition to greater volume, the quality seems to have increased just as dramatically. I certainly find myself guilty of commenting more than critiquing lately due to time pressure. Honestly, I just don't spend enough time on many images in my rush to see them all. I'm sure I'm not the only one on this boat, and really don't know what the answer is. I just wish there were more hours in the day sometimes!
A critique is a verbalized opinion. A good critique is one that helps you understand why (how to I make that blinking red?) the viewer has the opinion s/he had of your photograph. I don't think an education in photography is necessary to make a good critique. If someone dislikes that their attention is directed to a technical flaw in a photograph and they can verbalize that, it's a good critque. If they hate snakes, and they say it, that's a good critique (but I'll ignore it because I like snakes). If the viewer loves your photograph for at least an instant, and s/he can say why, you have a good critique. The viewer and you have a shared love, build on it if you can. It seems that photographers can often offer the best critiques of photographs, but I wouldn't bet on it. I guess I'm saying I'd rather know exactly what the critique says about the image than what the critic might suggest about fixes.
Pete D.
Posted by Rodney Dugmore on January 29, 2007 at 11:53 PM
Interesting Discussion.
I would leave you this Question. Why do the Images that need the greatest help get the least?
The excellent images posted by Marc and others receive the most posts 20 + mostly atta boys admittedly .The lame images posted by myself and others in my subclass are lucky to get more than 5 comments? Is the Information posted with it not detailed or eloquent enough? I doubt it just basic human nature - "If I like an image I comment" and you scratch my back I'll scratch yours.
Just my observation
Posted by David Senesac on January 30, 2007 at 12:21 AM
Anyone searching for photography forums on the internet these days, would be surprised to find how many there now are. Ever since browsers came of age with early wars between Netscape and Internet Explorer, people have been posting images. Far more have risen up in the last four years as digital photography exploded. Most are not photography forums but rather enthusiast forums that have photo sub-forums. For instance a vehicle foum might have several sub forums including one where members post pics of cars. Some of these enthusiast forums like www.summitpost.com for the climbing community, have some quite high level imagery stored. And there is of course the large commercial image hosting sites like webshots, some of which have far more members than NPN. However there have always been a fair number of pure photographer oriented boards and almost all have had some type of image posting process.
What some of these later communities have that others don't is image critiquing. However I've yet to find any site that really had useful critiquing for more advanced photographers though there can be a lot that less experienced members might glean. Instead one will find members usually just offering one liners of praise and occasionally offering brief critiques the same way they do here at NPN. One could argue that most posting pictures on image critique forums are merely posting images to share with others and receive mutual praise. For instance over at www.fredmiranda.com there are so many images posted on some of the image forums that images tend to be quickly scrolled off the front pages into oblivion regardless of image quality. It is nearly impossible to get a discussion going unless the images are those of one of the popular members. An issue working against serious discussion is that many that visit a site like NPN are far too busy to spend more than a few minutes poking around. They hardly have time to make a brief comment on an image or three, much less read a few pages of heavy image critique and discussion. There are of course many folks that likely skip past every post they see for an image that is more than two sentences. (they've already aborted on this post haha) Speaking generally about internet image critique forums, I would suggest that some people may feel uncomfortable with someone posting a paragraph of commentary or critique if 95% of the rest are just posting one-liners.
Another issue working against serious critiques is that on most boards, even if a comment is carefully crafted, some members will interpret the comment incorrectly because many people simply cannot read critically much less write. They read right past relative descriptions and stated opinions and may interpret them as black and white condemnations. Others will read a comment and become emotional as though the comment is an attack. That is guaranteed to occur if a forum stranger comments on one of the forum regulars that is popular regardless of whether the criticism is well written and honest. Just like in real face to face communication in the workplace, there are just a whole lot of people including those in high position that are simply overly emotional and quick to become defensive or aggressive. And of course words on a computer screen are far more easy to misinterpret than those spoken face to face because there is a huge component of non-verbal communication missing.
I think if any forum was serious about experimenting with trying to create more serious image discussion, they would first need to create a forum for doing so that had neon signs all around the browser borders stating the purpose and FAQ's for posting in it. Then the curious might open a thread and get the flavor of what people were writing there. If they saw an abundance of paragraph sized comments without one-liners, it would encourage them to do likewise. I would also shy away from describing such as a critique forum but rather an image discussion forum. That is because for advanced photographers, there is often not much in the way of hard critique to offer while possible much possible worth discussing. For instance strategies in the field, commentary on familliar locations, or each persons style in dealing with whatever situation the poster dealt with. A lot of times I see modest or mediocre images posted by talented people that I could not have elevated any better than they did. So the only thing I might communicate is that from my perspective the image has a somewhat reduced level of worth for a given reason. That also allows an accomplished photographer to post flawed images for purpose of image flaw discussion by simply stating up front the flaws.
Of course an image posted in such a forum might be served better by having the poster add comments up front for others to understand more about what was going on in their mind and what they were trying to create. For this to work well there also needs to be two-way communcation instead of simply everyone posting comments without getting any responses. That doesn't mean every post ought to get a response but at least the thread creator posting an image ought to engage the responders in more depth than is currently the status quo. Like one would discourage posting an image if they were embarking on a trip and would not be around some over the near term of days....David
Okay guys. Can you honestly tell me that you take the time to say "Now what do I want to portray here" when you see the wonder of nature happening before your eyes, one that only lasts a second or two. More often than not there isn't time to set up a tripod, much less analyze. Nature cannot be controlled, even if you wish it so, except to optimize your chances by being there when there should be good light. Very rarely will the fox, eagle or sunset stand still for a portrait shot and when they do "WOW." When photographing objects that stand still you have the luxury of analyzing, placing and controlling the shot but otherwise you are the mercy of nature and should be thankful that you where given the privilege witnessing the wonders of this world. So... most of us gladly shoot what we have seen with no preconceived notion of what we were trying to portray, other than the thrill of seeing what God chooses to put before us and wishing to share it with others we respect.
Can you honestly tell me that you take the time to say "Now what do I want to portray here" when you see the wonder of nature happening before your eyes, one that only lasts a second or two.
Absolutely. I don't talk to myself literally but my instinct kicks in and I look for a good composition. If there is none to be found I just relax and enjoy the show.
Certainly some amazing images can be attributed to serendipity and pure luck but you will notice some people produce them with enviable consistency. This is no accident. There's a lot of deliberate effort and conditioning that allows someone to respond quickly when something wonderful unfolds.
We may talk about analyzing and composing in great detail but in many cases it takes just a split second for a trained eye to recognize the most favorable setting.
Guy
Posted by Paul Grecian on January 30, 2007 at 10:52 AM
Patricia,
For me, the "time" you are talking about takes place well before the making of any particular image. Before I am on a location or before I ever experience the event. It is the time I spend looking at things in the field, studying imagery from work I have done before, from other photographers, and from other 2-D artists. I think about the kind of situations I may experience or images I want to make so that when the situation is in front of me I can react as if I had just spend hours planning the image. It is not about controlling nature, it is about controlling your own vision and the presentation that you want to create. My tripod is always set up, my technique is hopefully polished, and I am constantly thinking about new images. That is what prepares me to think and create quickly when time is a factor. I do not gladly "shoot" without a preconceived notion although I may not have previously considered all aspect of a situation. Rarely will I engage in what I call "witness" photography whereby making an image to prove I saw something is my goal (maybe if I saw a rare bird in my area). You are right that we should be thankful for the priviledge to experience great things in nature, but control of the final image often happens successfully in a very short time period.
Paul
Posted by Craig Thompson on January 30, 2007 at 11:43 AM
Don't believe I'm really gonna do this, but I'm ready to lay myself on the "sacrificial alter".
I thought it might be good to give everyone weighing in here an opportunity to express, by example, their position on critiques.
I posted this image in the Macro Forum before the start of this thread,..
http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/ic.cgi?a=vp&pr=63854&b=vg5&st=0&la=271&ph=7&sid=2189&u=2189
As you can see, it didn't get much input initially, but after reading Catherine's comments & keeping this discussion in mind. I added my thoughts about the image (third post down, please read before commenting) & realized it might be a good candidate for helping to further examine the issues discussed here. (then again,.. maybe I'm just masochistic)
Here's your chance folks, (I'm wearing a cup!!! )
Craig
ps. Attention Moderator,.. If this post wasn't appropriate. go ahead & delete it, hope it's OK though!!
Posted by Keith Bauer on January 30, 2007 at 12:12 PM
Very interesting thread. I believe Marc's basic assumption is that folks post here to get feedback to improve their photography. For many I'm sure that is true. It certainly is for me. I'm always amazed when I look at my images how myopic I can become. I see what I want to see and don't see things that other photographers see almost immediately that are distracting. NPN is an amazing community of talented photographers. Many images do lack that special punch that puts them over the top. I agree with Marc that it would be helpful to constructively provide our thoughts. My avian image that was selected for 2006 editor's picks provided a good example for me. There were several comments that indicated that the image might be better with less foreground. I took a look at the image, re-cropped and posted the alteration. For me it didn't work as well, but it was interesting to see the difference in the image. I'm thankful that folks provided the input. I never considered a different crop until it was suggested.
I am a firm believer that to take your photography to the next level requires a lot of time, patience, and a thick enough skin to hear comments that point out the weaknesses in your images. Sure it is nice to hear the positive comments as well. A healthy balance would be a very good thing indeed.
Keith
Posted by Marc Adamus on January 30, 2007 at 12:58 PM
Paul, just to touch on something you mentioned above, the difference between opinion and critique is really negligable as it applys here IMO. Little more than mincing words IMO. When I go to a site like P.Net or elsewhere, there is a clearly labeled "Critique Forum" where anyone can comment on photos. There is no "Opinion Forum", so, whatever the websters definition actually is I really don't think it matters too much for the sake of this discussion.
I definitely agree that there is always a specific intent when making a photograph. We're not just spinning around and aiming at something random, afterall. In some cases I think it helps to make the viewer more aware of our intent, other times I think it's pretty obvious and there dosen't need to be much additional information included. Still, with every post we make, the more information we can give our commenting audience, the better. I know I am always as informative as possible as to my intent and equipment.
I greatly value comments from beginners or even non-photographers. You don't usually need any experience to know what you like or don't like when it comes to pictures
You speak for us all, Marc.
Questions. You receive a critique from a "less accomplished photographer" but the critique is not echoed by any of the "more accomplished photographers". Do you still receive the critique as seriously as you would had it come from more accomplished sources? Do less accomplished photographers need the backing of the more accomplished ones when it comes to critiqueing?
Thank you.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Posted by Marc Adamus on January 30, 2007 at 11:17 PM
Good question, Will. It depends. If the critique from a beginning photographer and it is based solely on the aesthetic or compositional merit of an image, I will always take it seriously - as seriously as critique from anyone else. Afterall, non-photographers or beginners make up the vast majority of my clients! Usuaully, beginners stay out of the finer technical aspects of image critique like selecting the right GND for a certain exposure or polarizer vs. shutter speed issues, etc.. I pretty much know what I'm doing on the technical end of things (in camera) and if I do have an additional question there I will state it with my post.
I think asking for specific feedback will allow reviewers to narrow down how to respond. If you are uncomfortable with some aspect (composition, color, light, whatever) mention it for help. If you feel comfortable with the photo as you have presented it, but would like more of an emotional response, ask for it. I recently heard Brooks Jensen mention some interesting points on how he will be reviewing photos in his new podcast
http://www.lenswork.com/lensworkpodcast2-1.htm
At the bottom, 'A few comments about comments' might be of interest to this discussion.
Posted by Mark Hudon on January 31, 2007 at 12:54 PM
Another point, and I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if it's been made yet, is that quite often, I simply don't have enough time to look at a photo and really work on a good critique. I could comment less and increase the quality of my critiques or I could continue with a fair amount of "atta boys" and a few solid critiques.
One thing I really value about this site (even though I'm new) is the quality and fairness of the critiques I get here. This site is truly full of talented people, and so I usually only post my "top" photos here. I used to frequent another site (not mentioning any names) for about a year, and I was used to either receiving a lot of "Nice photo" comments or just getting no posts at all when I posted one of my "top" photos because I wasn't part of the "in" crowd. As a result, when I came to this site I was really surprised at the comments and critiques I got.
I agree that we need a balanced mix of honest critique and support. Being a relatively new photographer, I appreciate it when someone writes a thoughtful critique for one of my photos- usually I learn something that I can use the next time I go out to take some photos. However, I also like receiving comments about what worked well and why because it gives me encouragement that I have some talent.
One thing that I really like about this site, which may seem minor to some, is that everyone here seems to see the photo BEFORE they see the photographer. It may not seem like much, but having came from a site where the images with the most comments were taken by the most popular photographer, it means a whole lot to me. Just thought I'd throw that in to let my appreciation of this site be known I try and comment and critique when I can, and right now I think I'm at a 10:1 Comments made/images posted ratio, which I think is pretty fair. Anyways, I'd write more but I gotta run to class...
Posted by Kent Mearig on January 31, 2007 at 5:35 PM
Several replies back, I thought I picked up on the assertion that having lots of critique on the aesthetic qualities of out posts could lead to us modifying our style to match with the style of everyone else. It seems like a valid assumption, but I was wondering whether the alternative to getting many critiques wouldn't have an even more detrimental effect. When someone voices a specific complaint about your photo, you can consider the issue and reject their suggestion if it doesn't resonate with your style of photography. Since most of us are trying to make some judgment about the reception the photographs we post here will get from an audience, we're forced to go by the numbers in absence of substantial comments. One think I'm sure of is that the numbers follow a very predictable pattern that is most strongly influenced by color and "golden hour" light. The number of viewers can make a blanket statement that other people don't respond well to your image, but if they take the time to tell you why, you will know whether it is worth it to you to change.
Posted by Lon Overacker on January 31, 2007 at 6:09 PM
....It seems like a valid assumption, but I was wondering whether the alternative to getting many critiques wouldn't have an even more detrimental effect.
Kent, as you mentioned subsequently, folks can accept or reject comments and critique. And with that ability to reject, I can't see how lots of comments can be detrimental, but I can see lack of comments having an effect on some, especially those folks just getting their feet wet with no prior means of getting feedback. But at that point it does fall soley on the image maker as to whether or not they can grow and learn from that. Years ago when I was actively involved in a camera club, the very nature of competition drove me to improve my photography - and in no uncertain terms, it did just that. If you're not getting the feedback you think is deserved, by all means I would encourage anyone and everyone to ask why? In other words, what could I have done better or differently? You'll be better for it.
Discussion
54 repliesIt's simple: If you like it, why? If you don't, why? It's usually a little of both. Figure this out every time you see a new image and you as well as the photographer who took the image might learn something. Rarely will people ever unanimously agree on a particular point, it is art afterall, but making suggestions is a good way to get everyone thinking. I know I take it to heart if even one viewer takes the time to suggest something.
This should be easy to accomplish while still maintaining a great community here. Even if it means less comments, a sincere and thoughtful one means much more than ten 'great shot' replys IMO.
Even if you are a new photographer one of the best ways to learn is critiquing the work of others. There is no such thing as feeling 'unqualified' to offer a suggestion. In fact, even as an established photographer myself, I greatly value comments from beginners or even non-photographers. You don't usually need any experience to know what you like or don't like when it comes to pictures.
One way to improve in photography is to gain confidence, which is something that plenty of beginning photographers don’t have that much of. It’s good that most of us learn early on that we’ve got a long way to go before our images match up with much more experienced photographers, but that notion can also be a roadblock. If someone only has time to write one or two detailed replies each time they log on, and they’re discouraged from giving brief encouragements or praises, there are a good number of posters who miss out on the boost in confidence they need. I might post a photo thinking it’s the best I’ve ever created; I would be bummed to get only five comments from people who can see different aspects that need improvement.
I’m getting a little bit long winded, so tell me what you think so far.
Lastly, I will say that I have found your critiques to be among the most thoughtful and constructive I have seen.
Now, does anyone else want to defend themself?
Just kidding; it's good to get this out there. There's not much sense in lots of peopel telling you good job and leaving it at that when you post an image we only get to take in our dreams.
Thanks for starting this discussion. I tend to agree with your general premise and enjoy both receiving and providing thoughtful critiques. There are a number of things I struggle with however; providing responses and critiques beyond "nice image," does take more time. While I've been making an effort to respond to as many posts as I can, it's not practical to respond to all of them. Like you Marc, as well as many others, I choose as often as possible, to provide positive comments and constructive criticism as well. Although not everyone specifically states they want comments and critique, by default this is an image critique forum (at least part of NPN is anyway) and I think critiques should be expected.
There are of course a select number of images that need no critique, just accolades.
I agree, and this is a good point, that both the top experienced photographer as well as the beginner's beginner, can learn from providing critiques. This also ties in to previous posts; asking the question, do we learn from viewing images from forums like this? So do we learn and grow from providing thoughtful responses on forums like this? I think we do. One thing I have learned here is to be able to provide some positive response to images that might have technical flaws or images that don't appeal to me. It's helped me grow as a photographer.
I'm only pointing out the obvious when I say that there are as many different personalities as there are different images. We all have our own styles, photographic and otherwise. I'm generally quiet in person, but can chatter with the best of them on a keyboard. Other's, may hate typing, love photography and are satisfied with nothing more than, "Wow, beautiful." And that's ok too.
Would it be a stretch if I said there are two basic powers working here? Ego, and ego. Perhaps Kent mentioned the same thing and called it confidence, but I believe confidence is based on our ego, good and bad. I can freely admit that I have a photographic ego. I love the "ooh's and ah's." At the same time, I yearn to improve, expand my abilities and truly welcome constructive criticism to help me expand.
In addition to responding to images, I would encourage posters of images to provide more details about the image posted; why did you take the picture?, what were the circumstances? Why do you like it? and what kind of comments or critique are you looking for? I personally enjoy reading the short anecdotes about the photographer's experience. It adds so much to what otherwise is just a one-dimensional image.
Anyway, I could go on, but I'm getting sleepy-eyed.
Lon
Kent raises a great point. One of my best classes in college was an upper division psych class called, "Group Dynamics". It also boasted the thickest textbook of my entire scholastic career. At some point, we'd all like to sway a group into our own perspective. Personally, I'd like to do that to Congress and the upcoming Orphan Works ammendment to the Copyright Laws. The only problem I have is that sometimes my expectations don't match with what the larger group desires or requires.
On another personal note, I've appreciated NPN above all other similar sites, because this is the one site where a real critique can be well given and well received. Sure, time is a factor - especially for the "atta boy / girl" comments vs. more thourough and thoughtful replies. But everywhere else I've seen, the group dynamics either inhibit critiques because they are poorly received by people with overly weak or strong egos, or they are poorly given, even to the point of being mean. So you're left with all you can say is good job, or have a skin of armor and a taste for blood in the water.
btw - One reason I don't post as much as I like is that I *have* to make time to make thoughtful replies to X number of images for each time I post. - just a personal 'rule'. I'd rather tell one person something helpful, in a positive way, or express my own opinion with some type of reasoned explaination than give 10 people a "nice shot" with nothing more to say.
Cheers,
I think that someone posting a image should state what their looking for in a comment about the image. I know in the Flora catagory, Nathan Buck always includes "brutally honest thoughts appreciated" which opens the door for me to feel comfortable to make comments if the image doesn't apeal to me, or any info on how I would improve it, and of couse if I like it, I tell him why. This tells me that Nathan has thick enough skin to handle any criticism. If the poster does not include that he or she is looking for suggestions on improving the image, then I would just tell them what I like, but wouldnt give any ideas of improvements.
So I believe if someone is open for suggestions on any improvement of their image, it shouild be stated when its posted, other wise if its not, I would not try to offer any help.
Pete D.
Good thread Marc, lots of good comments. I do appreciate the last paragraph in your first post. As a fairly new photographer who hasn’t posted a lot I tend to hesitate on commenting on certain people’s works, including your’s. It can be intimidating to be the lone dissenter in a group of atta-boy/girl comments. And, as a recently disappeared thread showed, not everyone is open to comments about their images.
I agree with Lon. I’m much more likely to feel comfortable commenting on an image if the poster has indicated what they were trying to capture or why they took the photograph than if they just slap up a photo with some tech-specs. I also don’t post too many comments because I really like to “analyze” the photo to find what I can learn from it. As Gary mentioned, I’d rather post one or two critiques than 10 atta-boys/girls.
Cheers,
Alex
I agree with you that more detailed critiques would be helpful. However with so many images and so little time, I find that it's hard for me to do that in each case. As a moderator, I make it my business to look at every image on ES&S. Sometimes the image moves me or not. Sometimes I have something to say about it and sometimes I don't. I don't have the time to sit there and work out a critique. If I a critique comes to me that I think would be helpful, then I post it. If I just think the photo is beautiful, then I say so. If the photo does nothing for me, I don't think that just saying that is particularly helpful unless I can say something that would improve it so usually I just say nothing.
More detailed critiques would be nice but I don't have that luxury and I also wonder if people really want them. It's very rare when I've offered a detailed critique that I ever get a response from the photographer. I'm also wary of offering a criticism when every else is just saying "great shot"
Just one more addition on critiques. I posted an image on Saturday on ES&S and most of the critiques were on the negative side. I want all of you to know that I really appreciated that. I felt that you really must care about me and my work to say that. So, thank you all.
- Dan.
Moderator ES&S
For some of you, though (Marc, Darwin, Guy, Bob, etc.) I can completely understand that simple "nice one" comments are OK, but don't provide much value. But for me, posting something that gets a lot of "nice one" comments would be a small accomplishment.
And I've got to disagree a little with Mike Moats - I think honest critique should be the assumption here - the photographer shouldn't have to ask for it. If they know the photo has problems, or don't really want suggestions, or particular types of comments, they should have to note that in the post. Otherwise, as long as everyone is polite and constructive, the photo is open for any comment. Just my 2 cents.
David, I also agree that if you are posting here, recieving honest critique should be assumed. I don't believe that you should need to declare in your post that you want critique for it to be given, although saying something like Bill or Nathan often do - "honest and brutal critiques appreciated" certainly helps open the door for critique.
Gary, your point about the NPN community is well understood. We're walking a fine line here, and as a veteran of more than a dozen other sites myself, I know how the general atmosphere and mood of the community can change for the worse if photographers become too aggressive or competitive. It is very important to make every effort to be as polite as possible, especially if someone is new to the forums, as not to make the wrong impression about NPN.
And yes, I know that most everyone is pressed for time. Still, as many people have expressed, just a few meaningful critiques are often worth more than another one-line pat on the back. That said, I'm sure that even a complimentary comment is still better than none at all.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Interesting topic of discussion you've started here. I believe you and the others here have made some very valid points, both pro & con.
This is a tricky issue to try & bring about a hard & fast resolution to. It would seem to me, that the arguments for or against the simple "congrats" type of image replies are entirely subjective. Beginning photog's as well as newcomers to this site,.. could.. be discouraged by a critique that is perceived as negative. Regardless of the intent or reassurances of the person giving the critique.
I also agree with the position that,.. some... disservice is done if a person posting an image is looking for input for improvement on a particular image (whether they state that desire specifically or not) and receives only "atta boy's/girl's!! without any substantive information. This person may perceive this as "fluff", or a waste of their effort in posting the image in the first place!
I believe that key here is, "perceived"!! An individual's perception is so subjective that, for another person to take responsibility for how something,.. could... be perceived, would effectively paralyze them. Rendering the stated intent & purpose for this site moot!! Yet how many of us have such unwavering confidence in our own ability, that we're oblivious to the possible consequences of (actual or perceived) injury to another's Ego? I haven't encountered anyone here who strikes me as that insensitive!! Having been injured in the past, (and not liking it much,) I find I try to be careful not to inflict that on another, intended or not.
One point I haven't heard here, (Ooops,.. I see David Bostedo beat me to this point while I was writing it) involves yet another subjective issue. On occasion, when I've shared my images with people, I find I'm often surprised by which ones they feel are the most moving. Frequently they'll choose an image that I feel isn't particularly special, and almost as often they'll flip right past images that I think are some of my best with hardly a glance!! Again, I suppose it's an entirely subjective preference. One that I'm not always able to anticipate.
My point being,.. that a flurry of "great shot's" for a given post. Can serve, not only to bolster a persons confidence in their talent/ability. It might also be instrumental in the process of learning objectively, which images to choose for printing, marketing or submission.
Another thing I've noticed in regards to many of the "established" shooters. More than a few of you seem to have more experience (as well as talent) with "writing". Speaking for myself, I've read many a discussion here that I intended to comment on only to realize that I could not be nearly as eloquent or articulate in expressing my point of view as compared to some who had already weighed in on the subject. (Heck,.. I almost didn't post this!! ) Just as it is in photography. Not all of us have the same level of ability. We have trouble trying to put our thoughts & feelings into words as coherently or effectively as others. (although I do believe it's worth the effort to try) I think it's entirely possible that folks might not be willing to comment at all if they felt they were required to be "scholarly" about it!
Much of my attraction and desire to get involved in nature photography in the first place, was my reaction, emotionally to the images I saw. The spontaneous "Gasp" or "Wow"!! I emitted when I saw an image that really moved me. I wanted to create something that made people react like that!! If that's Ego (large "E"), so be it! Often that's what I'm hoping will happen with an image I post here. Personally, I can think of no higher praise than to be rendered monosyllabic by a photograph.!!! If ever an image of mine garners such a response I'll be quite happy.
Besides all the above. Aside from being a passion, an avocation, an obsession, and profession,.. photography can also be FUN!!! Sometimes it's nice just to simply know, "you like me, You really really like me"!! (My images I mean, of course)
Lastly,.. Marc, you are probably going to hate me for this given your stated position on critiques, but honestly what are you looking to improve upon? I checked out the links to your personal sites & portfolios. Damn man, if your images get any better than they already are,.. I'm not gonna have any reason to reason to take my camera's out of their case.!!
Thank you Marc for a thought provoking topic!
Craig
Will, I think this is significant as it relates to posting critiques. This is much more prevalent in other forum communities. To me, it can reach an unbearable point when an established member get's nothing but "great shot," "you continue to amaze me," comments and no one steps up to break up the happy party. I think it is a challenge as Will mentions, to be the one person who points out the distracting element, the tilted horizon or that small washed out section of a waterfall.
This is a big reason why I find the NPN forums so different and much better than other photo communities because I don't feel there is a "good ole boy" mentality; everyone treats everyone the same, regardless of skill level. There also is no superiority attitudes of Nikon vs Canon, film, vs. digital, 4x5 vs 5D, etc. etc. It's such a pleasure to absorb, enjoy, and critique images on their merit, artistry and impact.
Another challenge I have that has only been touched on is responding to your own post. My general rule (like Gary, I have my own rules....
Lon
This is a strong point, Craig. However, when I look at all that we must go through in life to succeed, from our schooling to our daily jobs, the road to success is never made entirely of praise. Praise must be earned, and those who rise to the top strive to learn from the critics whenever possible. This is art, so everything is ultimately left up to some interpretation and there certainly is no right/wrong answer at any point, but the more opinions we are able to hear - good, bad or both, the more we can learn about the way others interpret our work. That said, a lot of people are posting work here recreationally and I wouldn't want to drive them off. This should be a fun place as well as a learning venue, so lets never be too harsh or go out of our way to stress negatives.
As to my work, of course I appreciate the compliments, but you could probably guess I'm my own toughest critic. That perfect picture is still out there and always will be. Take my ES&S 2006 Editor's Pick "Magic Mountain", for example. The clouds blurred by a longer exposure have always bugged me a little and I wish the wildflowers in the foreground showed up better. I feel like I have to have the mindset that there is always something to be improved upon, otherwise I couldn't continue to grow as a photographer.
We all owe Jim a huge thank-you for the organization, managment and layout of this site, which creates fair opportunity for everyone to been seen and heard equally.
As someone fairly new at posting photos on NPN, I started doing so because I want to learn and improve. I feel that be getting comments from some of the best nature photographers around (that means all of you even if you are new too) is a great way to improve. I take all comments on my photos to heart no matter who gives them. While it's great for the ego to get an "atta boy" from the pros I also want to be told what you like about it AND what you don't. If all I wanted was to stroke my ego and just the good comments I would look for a site with less talent than I find here, so all comments on my photos are always welcome. Since being encouraged by Bill Chambers to comment more instead of just post photos I have tried to give a couple of critiques a day at least if I can. After starting this I have found, for one thing, that I have started to notice things in others images that I would often overlook in my own work. Maybe after doing this for awhile I'll start to notice it in my work during the process instead of after the fact. I can now see how trying to critique the works of others in a thoughtful way can help my own photography. I also try to look for photos with few comments instead of the ones that already have 20 or 30 comments.
One thing I like about NPN is the ability of its members to give help to others without being cruel.
Bruce
Pete D.
I try my best to say something useful even if it's explaining why I like something. To be honest, I would give a serious down and dirty critique if I knew it would be welcome. However I don't know anything about most of the people here so it is a learning process to critique new people as well so no toes are stepped on. On the net it's easy to take a critique as criticism or misconstrued as pretentiousness because the words have no context from which to draw from. I'm basically sarcastic most of the time in real life but I know that doesn't really work the same way on an internet critique forum.
So, not only do we as photographers respond and critique differently, the images themselves can warrant simple attaboy's or more in depth, thoughtful responses.
Just thought I would drop this in after the light bulb went on.
BTW.... Craig, I understand and agree that not everyone can express in words what they're thinking. However, don't knock yourself down on that account! You're message was clear, well thought out and point well expressed!
I find it astonishing to expect someone to leave a "meaningful" review without providing any background on the intent behind the photo, one's photographic style, etc. Many of the posts just say things like:
Camera a, lens b, filter c, etc. Thats it!
What am I, as a reviewer, supposed to do. Guess? Of course, if I am really interested in the photograph I can ask releveant questions and get the information I need, but my point is why should I be made to do all the work. Can't the person wanting a good review take some time to provide this upfront?
In the absence of such information the best I can do is write a few words indicating what I like or don't like about the photo. I would never (ever) try and push my photographic style onto another, just because I don't happen to agree with what they did. A lot of the reviewers do exactly this and I don't see how it can foster creativity. The most this will do is make everyone conform to one (call it the NPN) standard. To me photography is more than just one way of doing things...more than one way of seeing the world.
Now if the person posting the photograph said something about why they made the photo in the manner they did and what their intentions were, perhaps the person offering critique might have been able to help them realize their goals.
Does anyone else feel the same way?
I have been of the same opinion as you on this for a while. You state it perfectly.
Paul
I don't really see this as a problem. NPN caters to beginners and accomplished photographers and you can't assume they all want the type of information. With nothing else to go on, I will comment on technique and general aesthetics. With a more thoughtful images where the poster communicated clearly what they were after I can comment on emotional appeal, personal connection, or anything else specifically asked.
I try to comment on as many images as I can because I feel it prompts others to do the same. At times I will have more or less to say and/or more or less time to say it but generally as moderator I want to see the forum active so generally I opt for volume rather than in-depth reviews unless explicitly requested by the poster. I certainly don't expect anyone else to do the same, but I do hope each member will give something back to the community every now and then.
Guy
Oh boy, did you hit this nail on the head. I've written over 12,000 critiques (mostly in Avian) since this software went live. My most meaningful critiques are always to those who ask for specific feedback. Don't ask and you'll most likely get not much more from me than an 'attaboy' for a solid image, or a comment or two about the technical aspects of the image. How can I do more?
When I post an image, I always ask for comments and critiques and I really want the critiques. I have incorporated many suggestions into prints and have benefited greatly from the info. I don't mind straight from the hip on my photos.
I like to make honest comments on the posts of others, but as many have stated above, it is really hard to know how it will be taken. For those I feel want some honest feedback, I am much more willing to give it.
I'm thinking of it this way - if you just saw a print hanging on a wall, with no one else around, wouldn't you think about whether or not you liked it, why, what could have been better, how you might have done it, how it makes you feel, what it reminds you of, etc. If so, can't this just be put - however briefly - into words? Is it simply that we don't take the time if it's not specifically asked for? (since perhaps they don't want that information...)
You have asked a valid question, so let me try and explain what I was refering to.
If no information is provided, the situation is very much like a photo competition. Note that this is different from the gallery example, where one usually finds a good artist statement (or some such other documentation) that describes the intent, creative technique/process etc. behind the making of the print.
There is nothing inherently wrong with the photo-competition (or blind) style of commenting on an image. However, in this case it is more the view of the person offering the critique that comes though and I cannot understand how that will end up helping the person who made the photograph. For example, I was always amused when someone (generally a new person to NPN) would look at a Mark Hobson photo and say that it is suffering from vignetting. Or, after seeing an Eric Fredine post would say that the horizon is too centered.
If the person posting an image also wrote about about their intent, and the person offering feedback took that into consideration, the resulting critique should be more helpful to the photographer in realizing his/her goals. Isn't this what we are trying to do here, i.e. help the folks who are posting realize their goals? I cannot speak for everyone, but I surely don't want to make photos like others. Instead, I'd really appreaciate any and all help that will help me improve my own photography. I would also like to help others improve their (own) photography, but they must make the effort to tell me what is it they are after.
I can certainly see what you are getting at - and I agree with you to a large extent. But if a viewer only sees the, for instance, peaceful mood of the scene when you prompt them, is it really successful? And there are images that multiple people love, but never connect with the same way. I suppose prompting wouldn't prevent people's honest opinions, but it could.
Of course it had to be one I missed... I'm embarrassed. Thank you Anil!
Guy
Paul
Pete D.
I would leave you this Question. Why do the Images that need the greatest help get the least?
The excellent images posted by Marc and others receive the most posts 20 + mostly atta boys admittedly .The lame images posted by myself and others in my subclass are lucky to get more than 5 comments?
Just my observation
What some of these later communities have that others don't is image critiquing. However I've yet to find any site that really had useful critiquing for more advanced photographers though there can be a lot that less experienced members might glean. Instead one will find members usually just offering one liners of praise and occasionally offering brief critiques the same way they do here at NPN. One could argue that most posting pictures on image critique forums are merely posting images to share with others and receive mutual praise. For instance over at www.fredmiranda.com there are so many images posted on some of the image forums that images tend to be quickly scrolled off the front pages into oblivion regardless of image quality. It is nearly impossible to get a discussion going unless the images are those of one of the popular members. An issue working against serious discussion is that many that visit a site like NPN are far too busy to spend more than a few minutes poking around. They hardly have time to make a brief comment on an image or three, much less read a few pages of heavy image critique and discussion. There are of course many folks that likely skip past every post they see for an image that is more than two sentences. (they've already aborted on this post haha) Speaking generally about internet image critique forums, I would suggest that some people may feel uncomfortable with someone posting a paragraph of commentary or critique if 95% of the rest are just posting one-liners.
Another issue working against serious critiques is that on most boards, even if a comment is carefully crafted, some members will interpret the comment incorrectly because many people simply cannot read critically much less write. They read right past relative descriptions and stated opinions and may interpret them as black and white condemnations. Others will read a comment and become emotional as though the comment is an attack. That is guaranteed to occur if a forum stranger comments on one of the forum regulars that is popular regardless of whether the criticism is well written and honest. Just like in real face to face communication in the workplace, there are just a whole lot of people including those in high position that are simply overly emotional and quick to become defensive or aggressive. And of course words on a computer screen are far more easy to misinterpret than those spoken face to face because there is a huge component of non-verbal communication missing.
I think if any forum was serious about experimenting with trying to create more serious image discussion, they would first need to create a forum for doing so that had neon signs all around the browser borders stating the purpose and FAQ's for posting in it. Then the curious might open a thread and get the flavor of what people were writing there. If they saw an abundance of paragraph sized comments without one-liners, it would encourage them to do likewise. I would also shy away from describing such as a critique forum but rather an image discussion forum. That is because for advanced photographers, there is often not much in the way of hard critique to offer while possible much possible worth discussing. For instance strategies in the field, commentary on familliar locations, or each persons style in dealing with whatever situation the poster dealt with. A lot of times I see modest or mediocre images posted by talented people that I could not have elevated any better than they did. So the only thing I might communicate is that from my perspective the image has a somewhat reduced level of worth for a given reason. That also allows an accomplished photographer to post flawed images for purpose of image flaw discussion by simply stating up front the flaws.
Of course an image posted in such a forum might be served better by having the poster add comments up front for others to understand more about what was going on in their mind and what they were trying to create. For this to work well there also needs to be two-way communcation instead of simply everyone posting comments without getting any responses. That doesn't mean every post ought to get a response but at least the thread creator posting an image ought to engage the responders in more depth than is currently the status quo. Like one would discourage posting an image if they were embarking on a trip and would not be around some over the near term of days....David
Absolutely. I don't talk to myself literally but my instinct kicks in and I look for a good composition. If there is none to be found I just relax and enjoy the show.
Certainly some amazing images can be attributed to serendipity and pure luck but you will notice some people produce them with enviable consistency. This is no accident. There's a lot of deliberate effort and conditioning that allows someone to respond quickly when something wonderful unfolds.
We may talk about analyzing and composing in great detail but in many cases it takes just a split second for a trained eye to recognize the most favorable setting.
Guy
For me, the "time" you are talking about takes place well before the making of any particular image. Before I am on a location or before I ever experience the event. It is the time I spend looking at things in the field, studying imagery from work I have done before, from other photographers, and from other 2-D artists. I think about the kind of situations I may experience or images I want to make so that when the situation is in front of me I can react as if I had just spend hours planning the image. It is not about controlling nature, it is about controlling your own vision and the presentation that you want to create. My tripod is always set up, my technique is hopefully polished, and I am constantly thinking about new images. That is what prepares me to think and create quickly when time is a factor. I do not gladly "shoot" without a preconceived notion although I may not have previously considered all aspect of a situation. Rarely will I engage in what I call "witness" photography whereby making an image to prove I saw something is my goal (maybe if I saw a rare bird in my area). You are right that we should be thankful for the priviledge to experience great things in nature, but control of the final image often happens successfully in a very short time period.
Paul
I thought it might be good to give everyone weighing in here an opportunity to express, by example, their position on critiques.
I posted this image in the Macro Forum before the start of this thread,..
http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/ic.cgi?a=vp&pr=63854&b=vg5&st=0&la=271&ph=7&sid=2189&u=2189
As you can see, it didn't get much input initially, but after reading Catherine's comments & keeping this discussion in mind. I added my thoughts about the image (third post down, please read before commenting) & realized it might be a good candidate for helping to further examine the issues discussed here. (then again,.. maybe I'm just masochistic)
Here's your chance folks, (I'm wearing a cup!!!
Craig
ps. Attention Moderator,.. If this post wasn't appropriate. go ahead & delete it, hope it's OK though!!
I am a firm believer that to take your photography to the next level requires a lot of time, patience, and a thick enough skin to hear comments that point out the weaknesses in your images. Sure it is nice to hear the positive comments as well. A healthy balance would be a very good thing indeed.
Keith
I definitely agree that there is always a specific intent when making a photograph. We're not just spinning around and aiming at something random, afterall. In some cases I think it helps to make the viewer more aware of our intent, other times I think it's pretty obvious and there dosen't need to be much additional information included. Still, with every post we make, the more information we can give our commenting audience, the better. I know I am always as informative as possible as to my intent and equipment.
This is just the nature of group dynamics - you get as good as you give
Guy
You speak for us all, Marc.
Questions. You receive a critique from a "less accomplished photographer" but the critique is not echoed by any of the "more accomplished photographers". Do you still receive the critique as seriously as you would had it come from more accomplished sources? Do less accomplished photographers need the backing of the more accomplished ones when it comes to critiqueing?
Thank you.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
http://www.lenswork.com/lensworkpodcast2-1.htm
At the bottom, 'A few comments about comments' might be of interest to this discussion.
I agree that we need a balanced mix of honest critique and support. Being a relatively new photographer, I appreciate it when someone writes a thoughtful critique for one of my photos- usually I learn something that I can use the next time I go out to take some photos. However, I also like receiving comments about what worked well and why because it gives me encouragement that I have some talent.
One thing that I really like about this site, which may seem minor to some, is that everyone here seems to see the photo BEFORE they see the photographer. It may not seem like much, but having came from a site where the images with the most comments were taken by the most popular photographer, it means a whole lot to me. Just thought I'd throw that in to let my appreciation of this site be known
Kent, as you mentioned subsequently, folks can accept or reject comments and critique. And with that ability to reject, I can't see how lots of comments can be detrimental, but I can see lack of comments having an effect on some, especially those folks just getting their feet wet with no prior means of getting feedback. But at that point it does fall soley on the image maker as to whether or not they can grow and learn from that. Years ago when I was actively involved in a camera club, the very nature of competition drove me to improve my photography - and in no uncertain terms, it did just that. If you're not getting the feedback you think is deserved, by all means I would encourage anyone and everyone to ask why? In other words, what could I have done better or differently? You'll be better for it.
Lon