Utah Phone Book Pictures (rant)

I received an email today from a Utah Phone Book company asking to use my photos in their phone books. Twice in the message they said this would be "free of charge." And, of course, my reaction was "Wow! You're going to use my photos to help enhance your very profitable phone books and you're not going to charge me for this?!"

I'll have to see if this business practice works elsewhere. Tomorrow, I'll go over to the McDonalds and tell them "I'd like to eat five of your hamburgers. But don't worry, I won't charge you for this."

I've received several other messages like this, but this one annoyed me more than most...maybe because they didn't ask if they could use them for free but instead acted like they'd be doing me a favor for not charging me...maybe because I know what tremendous revenue these phone books can rake in. Anyway, if you receive this message, I would ask you not to fall for it. Just respond with the rates you will charge for *purchasing* a photo.

Nice. I suppose they figure it's like a big Yellow Pages ad... But you're right - they make a *lot* of money off of phone books; finding a good image to spruce it up should definitely be something for which they pay.

I hear you loud and clear, GC. The folks who produced MTV's "Real World - Denver" pulled the same crap on me. Their rights and clearances chick went through the whole drill, and at one point I interrupted her by saying, "So when do you get to the part where you tell me there's no money in it?" Her reply? "Oh, no, we won't charge you for using your photos!" She said she'd put my name in the credits. When I got their ridiculously inclusive release form (it even wanted complete and unfettered rights throughout the universe), and with no mention of photo credit to be found, I called her back. She said she could try to get my name in the debut episode's credits. I said that wasn't good enough, I wanted first and last episodes, and she gave me a total non-commital. She said she could get my photos listed on starstyle.com, where you can go and check out the goods used in different TV shows, but she'd need to get back to me about the first and last episode credit. I never heard from her again, I've never received credit on the show, and my photos aren't credited (or shown) on the "Real World - Denver" page at starstyle.com. And they have no signed release allowing them to use my photos. As soon as I have 30 minutes to catch my breath, I plan to send them a nice, multi-thousand-dollar bill for photo usage.

I try to adhere to an old boss's advice whenever possible: Photo credits are nice, but the place I want to see my name is on the "Pay to the order of..." line.

If it makes you feel any better, I had a random girl contact me last week to see if I wanted to donate my computer to her research project so that I could get a tax write off...and she was serious. She was sure that this was a very good deal for me. A simple "no thanks" would end the conversation, but it's just so insulting. It's like telling someone that their time/work has no value and then expecting to get a positive response. However, in the end, they probably always find some poor sucker that gives in and is "honored" to have been taken advantage of. Todd, you should definitely send that bill. Most subsidiaries of multi-billion dollar businesses do a cost/benefit analysis and find that occasional bills and lawsuits are cheaper than being ethical...at least in the short run. They budget for these kinds of irresponsible decisions...just ask any of the major media or oil businesses.

Instinctively, I feel similarly - I'd be offended if someone asked for something from me and then indicated that I'm fortunate in that I won't have to pay them for the privelege of giving them something for free.

Playing devil's advocate, however, at some point I'd want to ask myself is there an opportunity here for me to promote my business and generate sales? Collaborative marketing is something I get engaged in routinely in my line of work. The real question is, would having your image in the their phone book get you exposure and sell prints or image rights? If you think it will, then you have to evaluate whether or not you could reasonably expect to make enough money from those transactions to justify giving away the images for the phone book.

When I first read your post, I thought "that's ridiculous". But they're essentially offering you free advertising (depending upon how you/they agree to credit you, as Todd discusses...); if their customers are potentially your customers also, then it's not as offensive as it sounds, imo.

Here is my 2 cents, the Yellow Pages/Phone Book charges outrageous fees to have you advertize in their book, (the front cover is about 9,000.00 a MONTH at least in Colorado). I know this because my wife works for a lawyer who often has both covers and they pay these enormous fee's. I can understand your frustration, but remember how many thousands of people see these books, this is an opportunity to put your name in the hands of thousands of people for free. I guess I would only make sure you could put your name and website along with it, before agreeing to the deal. I want to clarify my stance on this, you are an established photographer with a history of beautiful works, books and showings. I am not as experienced, nor is my name synonomous(sp?) with books and/or images (yet ). This can also potentially widen your market place, how many people visit Utah in a given year, stay in the thousands of Hotels, look at the phone book to find whatever they need, and when they first grab it the first thing they see is your image. This might be worth further investigation, IMHO. Good Luck

I probably would have reacted the same way, just due to their attitude. Of course, I may also laugh off the idiotic sales pitch in exchange for a certain measure of exposure - depending on the circumstances. It's amazing how many people don't understand that selling photography is a career for some. Little links or photo credits don't cut it for people who are making a living of it. Still, publications like phone books just don't pay, in the traditional sense. Some do it right, offering certain types of advertising in exchange ... or even just a decent approach. "We'd love to use your image." "We don't pay, but here's what we can do for you ..." These are the people I'm happy to work with.

I personally get tired of this manipulative salesmanship as well. It's just bad business. Do they think we actually believe than anyone can buy a front cover of a phone book? It's just a slimey method to make photogs feel better about donating an image. It's too bad, because a more humble approach would probably yield great cover photos!

I agree, sometimes this type of garbage is worth the exposure. The type of salesmanship associated with these types of publications is pretty common. Fortunately, there are some out there who know how to do it right!

Those of you in Lakewood, look for my upcoming phone book cover AND big cover ad produced by the grounded local publishers at Echo Pages. They are great to work with.

And then there's Todd's situation ... OUCH! Enjoy your upcoming windfall though.

I'd like to know just how many photographers they think sell mass quantities of photos based on a single image in the Yellow Pages.

Les, in some cases, I'm sure the potential is huge. For example, I was on the Estes Park phone book years ago. I had 5 people (visitors) who purchased prints tell me that they found me through the cover/resulting ad - over the course of the year. Who knows how many more didn't mention how they found me. Mass quantities? No. But when it comes to selling photos, even one or two people discovering, buying and/or keeping up with your work in the future is pretty helpful.

you are an established photographer with a history of beautiful works, books and showings

Joe - This topic was originally posted by Grant, not Todd.

CAZ: Now that's funny!

What a coincidence. After I read this, I checked my email and I got a offer from Media Street. I submit images to help sell there products. Of course I do not get paid. But they give me credit and a link to my website.

I'll throw in a few cents worth because I've had recent experience with EchoPages, another yellow pages company.

They approached me about 1.5 years ago asking for local photography of Colorado and/or Lakewood. They would offer me, in compensation for using it as a cover image, a quarter page ad in a prominent position, as well as an inside-cover half page writeup on my business. Plus they threw in a listing under a catagory of my choice for free.

They did carry through with everything and I was listed. If you live in Wheatridge/North Lakewood, you might even see it now...It wasn't exactly earth shattering exposure but it was fairly compensated, IMO.

So not all companies are out to screw you here...Some are actually legit and pay their way in some sense.

-D

They must be smokin some whicked stuff man! I want some maybe i can live in their world!

This topic was originally posted by Grant, not Todd.

I don't get no respect, I tell you ... no respect!

Well, I'm not in so much of a ranting mood right now. Just getting so many people asking for free photos gets irritating. But it is always an opportunity to negotiate. So I didn't want to give a nasty response and just took out a little frustration here. I am a hard bargainer and while they still refuse to pay they've offered to credit me with my name OR web address! Woo Hoo! A little more bargaining and maybe I can get my name AND web address. Of course, I think I'll at least hold out for an actual ad targeted to potential customers. A small photo credit buried inside a phone book is almost worthless, but an ad in a place where photo buyers might be looking could be valuable.

Thanks for the responses. I'm sure other people have/will get offers like this. So mostly just want to warn you not to immediately accept a lousy offer just to get published. I've lost a lot of small sales by holding out for fair compensation but that's been more than offset by the occasional large sale.

Grant...If you run a really hard bargain, what's to keep them from not moving onto the next photographer?

The hard bargain comment was mostly a joke. If they can find other photographers who will provide their photos for nothing more than a small photo credit, that's fine with me. It's goes with the photo business. But I always want to get at least close to fair compensation. A lot of times photo buyers don't want a specific photo and are willing to shop around for the lowest cost photo. But sometimes they'll fall in love with a specific photo and be willing to pay more than you'd think.

Scott, there is nothing from stopping anyone from moving to another photographer, to get a better deal or free images.

And this is why organizations like ASMP and many professional photographers highly discourage the practice of “giving away” images or not charging an appropriate fee.

I completely agree with Grant - if someone wants an image, the photographer has to be compensated with a fair payment. If the photographer chose to barter for advertising, or takes compensation in any other way he/she feels is appropriate, that is the photographer’s choice.

I once did a job where my images where used exclusively for a city map. The compensation included credits and links to my website. Although several thousand of these maps were printed and given out(I think 10,000 were printed on the initial run), I made not a single sale. (…but maybe that’s cause my images sucked!!!) Needless to say, I no longer barter, no matter how good it sounds!

After my friendly little dig at Grant, I must now, not the least bit grudgingly, agree with him wholeheartedly. After years of negotiating, first as a trial attorney and now in private business, I will tell you that the first rule of negotiation is this: Never, ever, be afraid to walk away from the deal.

Sure, you may lose the deal. That's fine. You shouldn't feel compelled to accept an offer just because you are flattered that someone is interested in your art. This is just business for them so we've got to approach it the same way.

When someone makes us an offer out of the blue like they did with Grant, the first thing to do is to set the bottom end of our negotiating range - the very least we would accept in exchange for the art, the usage, etc. Then consider what you really want for it and ask for that. You'd be surprised at how often you'll get what you ask for. (Something else Grant alluded to.)

If the buyer balks at your counter offer, be prepared to negotiate options in your pre-set range. As discussed above, the "price" might include money, exposure, free use of the buyer's services or products, or anything else they are willing to give and you are willing to accept. During negotiations please remember - ask for what you want, not what you think the other side is willing to give. They will tell you what they are willing to give, that's what negotiations are all about.

If the buyer is unwilling or unable to give you something within your acceptable range, don't lower your bottom line - just walk away. Do any of us really want to be known as the photographer who places so low a value on his/her art that we would just give it away?

Right on Caz... I've walked away from many a "deal". Bartering images for name and Web link exposure has never really garnered any business for me. The most important tool today is simply having a Wed presence with one, or more, stock photo sites a plus. Next, is simply to go looking for business opportunities. Someone once said, "you won't make sales if you keep your images on a hard drive."

One of my best investments has been the purchase of FotoQuote - software that helps you price your work fairly. Without the use of this software, my last big sale would have been 1/3 the negotiated amount.

Ken