Posted by Chris Ebright on January 31, 2007 at 12:35 AM
This isn't a question about specific pricing. I got the oppurtunity last fall to shoot some photos for a real estate company that sells property on an expensive golf course. This was a spec shoot and they viewed the photos and then decided to purchase them. This was the first time I had ever done something like this, so I had to throw together pricing real quick. They wanted to purchase the photos for unlimited, exclusive use, i only retained the copyright. I charged them a certain day rate that I thought was appropriate at the time, but as I am doing more research, I am pretty sure I vastly underbid the pricing on the usage fees. Anyways, what this boils down to, is that there are a couple of other established photographers who this company pays to come in and shoot and I am wondering what effect my unintentional price undercutting is going to have. The company has now asked me to come back and shoot some more photos, still on spec. So, the question I have is whether I should renegotiate the pricing based on the more advanced research I have done. Or am I stuck with the original price I quoted them? One thing I don't want to do though is screw up business for other photographers who are making their living off of this, but at the same time, this is the first time I have made some money doing something like this, so I don't want to scare the company away. I hope that was coherent!
Chris
I wouldn't worry about the other photographers Chris, but I do worry a bit about you getting fair compensation for your time and expenses. At the very least you should be making a credible hourly wage plus expenses. Look at your old rate in those terms and see if the rate you charged would provide a living wage if you were doing it full time.
Remember too that it's hard to replace worn or broken gear on subpar income, as well as take things like insurance on the gear as well as liability insurance in case you hurt someone while you were working. I'm willing to bet that your existing homeowner policy would drop you like a hot potato if you filed a liability claim and they determined you were actually working.
In your specific case, I'd also look at vehicle expenses including not only gas, but wear and tear, insurance and all the other espenses of using your auto to tootle around for their photos. I don't recall what it is, but for income tax purposes there's something like a 50 cents a mile allowance. That would surely give you a starting number for estimating your own vehicle costs per mile.
When you add it up you are very likely to come up with a per/shot rate that's higher than you last charged, but then again maybe not. If there's a big disparity, then I'd certainly try to negotiate with the client and tell them that you took a bath last time and need to bring up your rate to cover expenses. If your new rate is still lower than competitors, so what. That's good competition for them, and the client shouldn't balk too badly. If you simply jump your rates to match your competitor, what's the client's incentive to go with you instead?
Woops. Almost forgot one last important point in your calculations. I'd also bet that you were probably pretty inefficient the first time around, investing a lot more driving and shooting time in the beginning than in the end. Another way to make more money while holding your rates down is to be more efficient with your time and expenses, thereby increasing your net even if there's no increase in your fees. You can also go back over your old files, your submission, and the images they picked, thereby starting the new job with a clear impression of what they want and plan your time more efficiently.
No one can fault you if you come up with a lower rate simply by being better and more efficient than your competition, meanwhile also approaching it professionally as though you were trying to make a living via your rates. It only get's dicey if you become the RF dollar-an-image source while going broke at the same time you drive everyone else out of business. But then again, if you could make a living providing the service at a buck a shot, more power to you!
Chris,
As far as, are you stuck with the original price?
Unless you made a contract for future jobs there is no reason why you should be obliged to keep the same arrangement. Cost and prices change, lapsed contracts should be subject to renegotiation. A real estate company should easily understand.
Posted by Walter Rowe on January 31, 2007 at 1:07 PM
(1) you should not be stuck with the original price unless it is contractually stated that all future shoots will be at that same price.
(2) you should request a fee for your time, separate from the usage fee for the images. that guarantees that you get paid regardless of whether they use the images. if they want to separate the two fees into separate invoices, you can accomodate that. if they are combined, make sure your invoice shows separate line items for creative fees and usage fees so that they understand you are getting paid for your time. your creative fee should cover your cost of doing business plus expenses plus your income. the usage fee should be based on the usage rights being requested. more rights granted should equate to a higher usage fee.
there are some excellent resources on http://www.editorialphoto.com/ including a calculator to help you determine your base creative fee and a calculator to help you determine a starting point for negotiating usage fees. if they feel the usage fee is too high, lower the rights granted to a more reasonable place and provide a more reasonable usage fee.
Posted by Chris Ebright on January 31, 2007 at 2:43 PM
Thanks for the help! I seem to have committed all the sins of a novice photographer! But, I am learning fast!
Posted by Walter Rowe on January 31, 2007 at 3:02 PM
The first one is much drier reading, but tells you a lot about the contractual side of running your own photography business. It has a lot of information about rights and usage definitions, and has a lot of information on calculating your base creative fee as well as usage fees. It is very enlightening.
The second book is much more accessible reading, and includes numerous real-world exchanges between John Harrington and clients as they negotiate rights and rates. Of course the clients are not named, but the actual e-mail exchanges are included in redacted form so you can see how the conversation takes place.
Posted by Randy Beacham on January 31, 2007 at 3:58 PM
Hi Chris,
As Jess mentioned if you're doing freelance work everything's negotiable, I would just say that you've had some time to consider the work in more detail or that you have been discussing normal business practices with other photographers.
I work for a couple real estate companies here ocassionally. If you're planning on making income from photography I would highly recommend that you find some resources to help you out. EP that Walter mentioned is an excellent online resource (for the first assignment work I did several years ago I used a contract form from EP that I modified). Fotobiz has helped me out greatly, the software has paid for itself many times over. In addition to pricing info there's a great coaching section that includes info on assigned work, plus lot's of forms that you can use. It's based more on editorial work than commercial but it would still be a big help to you and if you sell photos to editorial outlets or are planning to you'll get lots of use out of it.
For the real estate companies I don't use a contract but do use an estimate form from Fotobiz that I always send out before any work so that there's no confusion about what I'm charging for and what's expected.
What I think is even more important than the rate you're charging is that you should, in my opinion, not be shooting on spec for a realty company. This is what can hurt yourself and other photographers more than anything else. No one who is in any kind of business can afford to spend the time and money working and then allow the client to decide whether or not they want to pay for the work. I'm sure the real estate company likes the situation since they can pick and choose what they will pay for but they should also understand and respect that you need to be paid for services rendered, just like any other business. I always try to be flexible, if a shoot needs to be postponed because of weather conditions for instance, but once I'm on the job I charge for it. What I've done with real estate work where all the work is on private land is charge a day rate + expenses, grant unlimited usage but retain copyright. My day rate is based on what I've calculated is my cost of doing business. I've found it normally takes me about as much time for the office work as field time so my day rate is based on what I need to earn for two days work. If the work is local I'll also charge a 1/2 day rate if needed. I also spell out in the estimate form what they will receive, ie., the type, number and size of digital files. If they need extra digital work beyond what I have listed then I negotiate a seperate price for that. With digital now if you're not careful you can get yourself caught up in doing far more work on the computer than planned, which is why I state specifically what the client will receive beforehand.
This is what I've done for typical work--if you're working on real high-end real estate then you should be able to negotiate higher prices or seperate usage fees perhaps. Plus, this is what I do here in Montana and I don't have contact with other photogaphers doing this work since there isn't any where I live. Probably the best thing for you to do would be to talk to the other photographers you mentioned and see if they are interested in discussing their work--seems to me like it would benefit all of you in the long run.
If they insisted on looking at work on spec and you still wanted to do the work then perhaps you can negotiate higher fees or fees based on each usage rather than granting them unlimited rights. I can just about guarentee though if you shoot on spec for very long you'll become pretty frustrated with it since there's so many variables that might cause a client to pass on your work after you've put the time in. Good luck with your work, Randy
Posted by Chris Ebright on January 31, 2007 at 4:17 PM
Walter, thanks for the book recommendations, I will be checking those out.
Randy, that was a lot of good info, and right up my alley. I took the spec assignment because it was my first job and I still have a day job. But I now realize the value in looking at pricing as if it was my only income. One question: since you are granting the unlimited rights to some clients, do you increase your normal day rate? I am still a little confused on calculating cost of doing business as it involves creative fees + usage fees.
Posted by Chris Ebright on January 31, 2007 at 4:24 PM
Walter, thanks for the book recommendations, I will be checking those out.
Randy, that was a lot of good info, and right up my alley. I took the spec assignment because it was my first job and I still have a day job. But I now realize the value in looking at pricing as if it was my only income. One question: since you are granting the unlimited rights to some clients, do you increase your normal day rate? I am still a little confused on calculating cost of doing business as it involves creative fees + usage fees.
If your question about unlimited rights is open to all Chris, I'll chime in with out attitude. The answer for us falls into "likely use." Are they a big firm that advertizes nationally, putting out "Architectural Digest" type slick printed ads? Or are they a small firm that is putting tiny photos in the newspaper, on the web, and maybe in those little free newspapers badly printed on newsprint? There's also the question of how long they would want to use the photos, in that their goal is to sell the property quickly and move on, hopefully not to see the place again till the next sale.
I've done ranch photos for real estate companies, properties which sold in the multiple millions of dollars. It took a long time to sell them and they put a lot into advertising. They paid me a day rate, and in fact one ranch took a couple of days of shooting. As a part of a big sale like that, you could expect much higher fees and should negotiate tougher licensing agreements than say, a $100K two bedroom house listed by a company of one or two realtors. In the former a photo bill of thousands of dollars might well be part of the budget since their return is so high, but in the latter case, I'd bet you are whistling in the wind trying to get $100 for the shot and any kind of licensing agreement.
One of the clues about the difference between the two extremes is in the file size they request.
Posted by Chris Ebright on January 31, 2007 at 5:08 PM
Hank, the assignment consists of shooting the entire golf course community area for scenics shots with and without houses in the photos. They arent looking for specific shots of houses or interiors. In fact, they are quite vague in general, not even discussing size of files. I just gave them the full resolution processed tifs. But, they are selling mulit-million dollar houses, and the photo usage is for brochures, magazines, website, so I have to assume they have a decent budget.
Posted by Walter Rowe on January 31, 2007 at 5:53 PM
Chris - since you have established a relationship based on working for them previously, you might suggest a sit-down conversation to formalize your work agreement with them. While you probably won't get "market rates" for usage fees like a commercial or editorial shoot would get, you should be paid for the time you spend taking the photos regardless of whether they use them.
Ask yourself how you would feel if you spent several days taking magnificent photographs of the community and they decide to not use any of them and not pay you a dime? While you were shooting those magnificent photographs for nothing, you could have been making money on another assignment. It is lost revenue to you.
If you are already making a living as a photographer, you know this. If you are just entering the profession, this is invaluable information. Make sure any "creative fee" you calculate for yourself includes paying you an income above and beyond all your costs of doing business and living expenses. Do you like to go out to dinner or a movie once in a while? Want a new car someday? How about camera equipment, software and computer upgrades? Oh, you broke a flash that needs replacing? You have to have money in the bank for all of these, which means your creative fee needs to provide for them. It takes time to have enough data to determine how much you need to budget for all of these things. Once you have it, calculating a creative fee is pretty simple.
The ASMP book I recommended has a spreadsheet in it that you can plug all of these numbers into to calculate what your creative fee needs to be. That fee should change little from client to client, but should grow over time to account for inflation and your own pay raises. People with more skill make more money in every other field. The same should apply to you as a photographer. The usage fee and expenses billed to the client are where you will have negotiating room. They should be based on the rights granted, expenses incurred by the shoot, and the client's ability to pay. Higher budget clients can pay more, as expected.
And get it all in writing on a signed contract ahead of time. That will eliminate any confusion later as to what the fees are, what they cover, and exactly what rights are granted in return.
Posted by Ron Niebrugge on February 1, 2007 at 1:24 AM
"One question: since you are granting the unlimited rights to some clients, do you increase your normal day rate?"
Good question, and the answer is absolutely yes. This is why magazines only pay $400 – $600 per day plus expenses – they are only getting the rights for one time editorial use. Even wedding photographers are charging these type of rates with prints and other usage as an add-on.
For commercial jobs, the day rates are typically at least double this depending on the client, marketplace, usage and time. We can’t discuss specifics here, but it is safe to say most photographers are going to charge in excess of $1,000 per day for one year limited commercial rights. Multi year deals are going to jump considerably from there. They are asking for a lot wanting unlimited rights. Even if they went with stock, it isn’t likely to be cheap.
Having said all that, it is tougher to raise your rates once you have worked for a client – you don’t have a contractual obligation, but you have created an expectation. Sounds like they are happy with your work, good luck!
Posted by Randy Beacham on February 1, 2007 at 9:18 PM
Hi Chris,
This has been a great discussion. When I started out in this business all I did was sell stock photos or photo essay packages. I realized pretty quickly that if I was going to survive--and if I was going to spend more time closer to home and less time on the road, which gets to be real expensive when shooting on spec--I was going to need to diversify. What I've learned about assignment work has been through photo trade organizations or online resources like this forum. Beyond that I have basically learned as I go so I'm interested in the feedback you're getting as well.
As you can see from this discussion there's lots of variables and every situation is different. Having said that, there's a few rules I have that I don't cross. A few of them are:
1. I never work for below my basic CODB day rate.
2. I never grant anything more than one-time use rights to editorial outlets like magazines unless I'm compensated standard rates for extra rights.
3. I never do work for hire ie., sign over my copyright. While it may not seem like you can resell photos from a particluar job, you just never know what might be needed in the future, or at the least you might want to use photos in an online portfolio for example without worrying about copyright issues. What I told the one business who wanted to do this was that I don't have advantages of working for a company like pension or medical insurance, etc., so that owning my own copyright and having the ability to make money from my images was critical.
4. I never shoot on spec for anyone. If needed you can show a potential client a portfolio of work if they're unsure of your work history.
On the issue of CODB day rate, I should explain that this is what I figure is my bottom line rate that I'll work for. For editorial outlets, this is what I would charge local clients. I've only worked a handful of editorial jobs but for regional or national outlets I charged a higher rate than my CODB based on what their budget was and what I felt the standard the rate should be. One thing that I always do when first discussing work is try and find out what their budget is. Also, with magazines I have always charged the day rate against space rate. In other words, I've contracted and shot the job, sent out and been paid my invoice. Once the magazine came out if the dollar amount of the images used based on their usage rates was higher than what my day rate was I sent another invoice out for the difference. It's critical that this is spelled out in the contract you both sign. In my case in only two of the four magazines shoots I did was there a higher fee but it was nice to get that extra money in the mail.
For commercial jobs, like I said I live in a real rural area. There's nobody listed in my county phone book under commercial photography and no one I've worked for yet has ever hired a professional (I have heard things like, "we'll uncle Joe does some great photography, he does all our family photos, so I gave him a couple hundred bucks once to take some photos of my business and give to me") On every job I'e worked so far locally they either didn't have a clue about a photo budget or it was lower than my lowest rate. On the first job I was able to up the rate about 1/3 to my CODB rate. This is what I've charged on every job since with the exception of one. With real estate work I've always granted unlimited rights. Like Hank said on lower end real estate work there just isn't the money to charge extra fees if the only thing their doing is using the photos on their website or in their flyers or the local newspaper. Plus, the shelf life of the photos are only going to be as long as the property is for sale. I did do one job for a multi-million dollar house/property. I brought up extra fees based on usage and was unsuccessful in that but did charge double my day rate since as they could understand being on commission there should be more money involved with higher-end markets. On other jobs in one case with an outfitter I granted unlimited rights with the exception of any advertising they might do in regional or nationall media outlets. In that case we will negotiate fees on a case by case basis.
So as you can see every situation is different but I will definetly work for a day rate only if that's all I feel there's money for. One thing I've done in addition to the assigned work however is sell stock photos of the local area. In this case I sold them one-time use rights (or in the case of website's one-year) so every little bit adds up.
The important thing to do is find out as much information as you can on a job as far as what they need photographed and how they plan on using the photos. It sounds to me from what you're saying that this is a real high end market so I would think there's opportunities for extra fees beyond a day rate. This is why you should put less importance on how someone like myself bids jobs that lives in a totally different region and try to find out what local commercial photographers charge as far as day rates and usage fees for various rights requested. Think about it this way: if you're under bidding other photographers then your under bidding yourself as well.
I would also caution you again about doing a whole bunch of photography and then spending a huge amount of time processing and editing the photos without any extra compensation. When I bid a job I always set a limit to how many photos I will deliver based on what they want and the time needed in the field. Some people have balked at this, thinking I should simply delivery every photo I shoot, but as I've explained it takes time to do this and if I've done my homework right in understanding what kind of photos they need then there's no sense in delivering a bunch of photos they may never use. In one case when the client wanted more than I delivered I charged them an extra half-day rate to do the extra work.
So you want to find out very specifically what they need. From what you said it sounds like they're very vague as far as their needs. I can see them being that way if they're buying on spec but it would benefit them and you in knowing exactly the kind of photos they would like to see. This can be a selling point on your part if you can act somewhat like an art director in finding out their needs. One other thing, I've found out in the real estate field that sometimes there's a whole bunch of people involved and it can be difficult at times in sitting down and talking to the top person who is responsible for collecting and paying for the photos. It's vital that you do that however if you want everything clear as far as what kind of photos they want, how you're going to be paid, etc. You want everything up front from the get go with the person responsible for paying you. Good luck, Randy
Posted by Chris Ebright on February 2, 2007 at 2:31 PM
I am a lot smarter now after this post and discussion! Thanks everyone for the great advice. I will report back after my next shoot and hopefully have something insightful to offer.
Discussion
15 repliesChris
Remember too that it's hard to replace worn or broken gear on subpar income, as well as take things like insurance on the gear as well as liability insurance in case you hurt someone while you were working. I'm willing to bet that your existing homeowner policy would drop you like a hot potato if you filed a liability claim and they determined you were actually working.
In your specific case, I'd also look at vehicle expenses including not only gas, but wear and tear, insurance and all the other espenses of using your auto to tootle around for their photos. I don't recall what it is, but for income tax purposes there's something like a 50 cents a mile allowance. That would surely give you a starting number for estimating your own vehicle costs per mile.
When you add it up you are very likely to come up with a per/shot rate that's higher than you last charged, but then again maybe not. If there's a big disparity, then I'd certainly try to negotiate with the client and tell them that you took a bath last time and need to bring up your rate to cover expenses. If your new rate is still lower than competitors, so what. That's good competition for them, and the client shouldn't balk too badly. If you simply jump your rates to match your competitor, what's the client's incentive to go with you instead?
Woops. Almost forgot one last important point in your calculations. I'd also bet that you were probably pretty inefficient the first time around, investing a lot more driving and shooting time in the beginning than in the end. Another way to make more money while holding your rates down is to be more efficient with your time and expenses, thereby increasing your net even if there's no increase in your fees. You can also go back over your old files, your submission, and the images they picked, thereby starting the new job with a clear impression of what they want and plan your time more efficiently.
No one can fault you if you come up with a lower rate simply by being better and more efficient than your competition, meanwhile also approaching it professionally as though you were trying to make a living via your rates. It only get's dicey if you become the RF dollar-an-image source while going broke at the same time you drive everyone else out of business. But then again, if you could make a living providing the service at a buck a shot, more power to you!
As far as, are you stuck with the original price?
Unless you made a contract for future jobs there is no reason why you should be obliged to keep the same arrangement. Cost and prices change, lapsed contracts should be subject to renegotiation. A real estate company should easily understand.
(2) you should request a fee for your time, separate from the usage fee for the images. that guarantees that you get paid regardless of whether they use the images. if they want to separate the two fees into separate invoices, you can accomodate that. if they are combined, make sure your invoice shows separate line items for creative fees and usage fees so that they understand you are getting paid for your time. your creative fee should cover your cost of doing business plus expenses plus your income. the usage fee should be based on the usage rights being requested. more rights granted should equate to a higher usage fee.
there are some excellent resources on http://www.editorialphoto.com/ including a calculator to help you determine your base creative fee and a calculator to help you determine a starting point for negotiating usage fees. if they feel the usage fee is too high, lower the rights granted to a more reasonable place and provide a more reasonable usage fee.
ASMP Professional Business Practices in Photography: Sixth Edition
Best Business Practices for Photographers
The first one is much drier reading, but tells you a lot about the contractual side of running your own photography business. It has a lot of information about rights and usage definitions, and has a lot of information on calculating your base creative fee as well as usage fees. It is very enlightening.
The second book is much more accessible reading, and includes numerous real-world exchanges between John Harrington and clients as they negotiate rights and rates. Of course the clients are not named, but the actual e-mail exchanges are included in redacted form so you can see how the conversation takes place.
As Jess mentioned if you're doing freelance work everything's negotiable, I would just say that you've had some time to consider the work in more detail or that you have been discussing normal business practices with other photographers.
I work for a couple real estate companies here ocassionally. If you're planning on making income from photography I would highly recommend that you find some resources to help you out. EP that Walter mentioned is an excellent online resource (for the first assignment work I did several years ago I used a contract form from EP that I modified). Fotobiz has helped me out greatly, the software has paid for itself many times over. In addition to pricing info there's a great coaching section that includes info on assigned work, plus lot's of forms that you can use. It's based more on editorial work than commercial but it would still be a big help to you and if you sell photos to editorial outlets or are planning to you'll get lots of use out of it.
For the real estate companies I don't use a contract but do use an estimate form from Fotobiz that I always send out before any work so that there's no confusion about what I'm charging for and what's expected.
What I think is even more important than the rate you're charging is that you should, in my opinion, not be shooting on spec for a realty company. This is what can hurt yourself and other photographers more than anything else. No one who is in any kind of business can afford to spend the time and money working and then allow the client to decide whether or not they want to pay for the work. I'm sure the real estate company likes the situation since they can pick and choose what they will pay for but they should also understand and respect that you need to be paid for services rendered, just like any other business. I always try to be flexible, if a shoot needs to be postponed because of weather conditions for instance, but once I'm on the job I charge for it. What I've done with real estate work where all the work is on private land is charge a day rate + expenses, grant unlimited usage but retain copyright. My day rate is based on what I've calculated is my cost of doing business. I've found it normally takes me about as much time for the office work as field time so my day rate is based on what I need to earn for two days work. If the work is local I'll also charge a 1/2 day rate if needed. I also spell out in the estimate form what they will receive, ie., the type, number and size of digital files. If they need extra digital work beyond what I have listed then I negotiate a seperate price for that. With digital now if you're not careful you can get yourself caught up in doing far more work on the computer than planned, which is why I state specifically what the client will receive beforehand.
This is what I've done for typical work--if you're working on real high-end real estate then you should be able to negotiate higher prices or seperate usage fees perhaps. Plus, this is what I do here in Montana and I don't have contact with other photogaphers doing this work since there isn't any where I live. Probably the best thing for you to do would be to talk to the other photographers you mentioned and see if they are interested in discussing their work--seems to me like it would benefit all of you in the long run.
If they insisted on looking at work on spec and you still wanted to do the work then perhaps you can negotiate higher fees or fees based on each usage rather than granting them unlimited rights. I can just about guarentee though if you shoot on spec for very long you'll become pretty frustrated with it since there's so many variables that might cause a client to pass on your work after you've put the time in. Good luck with your work, Randy
Randy, that was a lot of good info, and right up my alley. I took the spec assignment because it was my first job and I still have a day job. But I now realize the value in looking at pricing as if it was my only income. One question: since you are granting the unlimited rights to some clients, do you increase your normal day rate? I am still a little confused on calculating cost of doing business as it involves creative fees + usage fees.
Randy, that was a lot of good info, and right up my alley. I took the spec assignment because it was my first job and I still have a day job. But I now realize the value in looking at pricing as if it was my only income. One question: since you are granting the unlimited rights to some clients, do you increase your normal day rate? I am still a little confused on calculating cost of doing business as it involves creative fees + usage fees.
I've done ranch photos for real estate companies, properties which sold in the multiple millions of dollars. It took a long time to sell them and they put a lot into advertising. They paid me a day rate, and in fact one ranch took a couple of days of shooting. As a part of a big sale like that, you could expect much higher fees and should negotiate tougher licensing agreements than say, a $100K two bedroom house listed by a company of one or two realtors. In the former a photo bill of thousands of dollars might well be part of the budget since their return is so high, but in the latter case, I'd bet you are whistling in the wind trying to get $100 for the shot and any kind of licensing agreement.
One of the clues about the difference between the two extremes is in the file size they request.
Ask yourself how you would feel if you spent several days taking magnificent photographs of the community and they decide to not use any of them and not pay you a dime? While you were shooting those magnificent photographs for nothing, you could have been making money on another assignment. It is lost revenue to you.
If you are already making a living as a photographer, you know this. If you are just entering the profession, this is invaluable information. Make sure any "creative fee" you calculate for yourself includes paying you an income above and beyond all your costs of doing business and living expenses. Do you like to go out to dinner or a movie once in a while? Want a new car someday? How about camera equipment, software and computer upgrades? Oh, you broke a flash that needs replacing? You have to have money in the bank for all of these, which means your creative fee needs to provide for them. It takes time to have enough data to determine how much you need to budget for all of these things. Once you have it, calculating a creative fee is pretty simple.
The ASMP book I recommended has a spreadsheet in it that you can plug all of these numbers into to calculate what your creative fee needs to be. That fee should change little from client to client, but should grow over time to account for inflation and your own pay raises. People with more skill make more money in every other field. The same should apply to you as a photographer. The usage fee and expenses billed to the client are where you will have negotiating room. They should be based on the rights granted, expenses incurred by the shoot, and the client's ability to pay. Higher budget clients can pay more, as expected.
And get it all in writing on a signed contract ahead of time. That will eliminate any confusion later as to what the fees are, what they cover, and exactly what rights are granted in return.
Good question, and the answer is absolutely yes. This is why magazines only pay $400 – $600 per day plus expenses – they are only getting the rights for one time editorial use. Even wedding photographers are charging these type of rates with prints and other usage as an add-on.
For commercial jobs, the day rates are typically at least double this depending on the client, marketplace, usage and time. We can’t discuss specifics here, but it is safe to say most photographers are going to charge in excess of $1,000 per day for one year limited commercial rights. Multi year deals are going to jump considerably from there. They are asking for a lot wanting unlimited rights. Even if they went with stock, it isn’t likely to be cheap.
Having said all that, it is tougher to raise your rates once you have worked for a client – you don’t have a contractual obligation, but you have created an expectation. Sounds like they are happy with your work, good luck!
This has been a great discussion. When I started out in this business all I did was sell stock photos or photo essay packages. I realized pretty quickly that if I was going to survive--and if I was going to spend more time closer to home and less time on the road, which gets to be real expensive when shooting on spec--I was going to need to diversify. What I've learned about assignment work has been through photo trade organizations or online resources like this forum. Beyond that I have basically learned as I go so I'm interested in the feedback you're getting as well.
As you can see from this discussion there's lots of variables and every situation is different. Having said that, there's a few rules I have that I don't cross. A few of them are:
1. I never work for below my basic CODB day rate.
2. I never grant anything more than one-time use rights to editorial outlets like magazines unless I'm compensated standard rates for extra rights.
3. I never do work for hire ie., sign over my copyright. While it may not seem like you can resell photos from a particluar job, you just never know what might be needed in the future, or at the least you might want to use photos in an online portfolio for example without worrying about copyright issues. What I told the one business who wanted to do this was that I don't have advantages of working for a company like pension or medical insurance, etc., so that owning my own copyright and having the ability to make money from my images was critical.
4. I never shoot on spec for anyone. If needed you can show a potential client a portfolio of work if they're unsure of your work history.
On the issue of CODB day rate, I should explain that this is what I figure is my bottom line rate that I'll work for. For editorial outlets, this is what I would charge local clients. I've only worked a handful of editorial jobs but for regional or national outlets I charged a higher rate than my CODB based on what their budget was and what I felt the standard the rate should be. One thing that I always do when first discussing work is try and find out what their budget is. Also, with magazines I have always charged the day rate against space rate. In other words, I've contracted and shot the job, sent out and been paid my invoice. Once the magazine came out if the dollar amount of the images used based on their usage rates was higher than what my day rate was I sent another invoice out for the difference. It's critical that this is spelled out in the contract you both sign. In my case in only two of the four magazines shoots I did was there a higher fee but it was nice to get that extra money in the mail.
For commercial jobs, like I said I live in a real rural area. There's nobody listed in my county phone book under commercial photography and no one I've worked for yet has ever hired a professional (I have heard things like, "we'll uncle Joe does some great photography, he does all our family photos, so I gave him a couple hundred bucks once to take some photos of my business and give to me")
So as you can see every situation is different but I will definetly work for a day rate only if that's all I feel there's money for. One thing I've done in addition to the assigned work however is sell stock photos of the local area. In this case I sold them one-time use rights (or in the case of website's one-year) so every little bit adds up.
The important thing to do is find out as much information as you can on a job as far as what they need photographed and how they plan on using the photos. It sounds to me from what you're saying that this is a real high end market so I would think there's opportunities for extra fees beyond a day rate. This is why you should put less importance on how someone like myself bids jobs that lives in a totally different region and try to find out what local commercial photographers charge as far as day rates and usage fees for various rights requested. Think about it this way: if you're under bidding other photographers then your under bidding yourself as well.
I would also caution you again about doing a whole bunch of photography and then spending a huge amount of time processing and editing the photos without any extra compensation. When I bid a job I always set a limit to how many photos I will deliver based on what they want and the time needed in the field. Some people have balked at this, thinking I should simply delivery every photo I shoot, but as I've explained it takes time to do this and if I've done my homework right in understanding what kind of photos they need then there's no sense in delivering a bunch of photos they may never use. In one case when the client wanted more than I delivered I charged them an extra half-day rate to do the extra work.
So you want to find out very specifically what they need. From what you said it sounds like they're very vague as far as their needs. I can see them being that way if they're buying on spec but it would benefit them and you in knowing exactly the kind of photos they would like to see. This can be a selling point on your part if you can act somewhat like an art director in finding out their needs. One other thing, I've found out in the real estate field that sometimes there's a whole bunch of people involved and it can be difficult at times in sitting down and talking to the top person who is responsible for collecting and paying for the photos. It's vital that you do that however if you want everything clear as far as what kind of photos they want, how you're going to be paid, etc. You want everything up front from the get go with the person responsible for paying you. Good luck, Randy