Posted by Rick Dunn on February 1, 2007 at 11:42 PM
I'm seriously looking at a 24" printer. I've found a couple of threads here discussing the DesignJet 130 and 7800, which are the two printers I'm looking at. I've done a lot of searching/reading online, checked out numerous reviews, seen prints first-hand at the recent RMNP get-together. Both produce beautiful prints based on the several test prints I've seen.
My questions is...the DesignJet is less than 1/2 the price of the Epson. What's missing? Is 8 inks that much better than 6; is it a noticeable difference on continuous tone images? Is pigment that much better than dye? Is the HP built cheaply? Or is Epson just that much more expensive? I've been VERY happy with my Epson 1280 and will keep it for small prints, but I'm struggling to see why the Epson is so much more.
FYI...I like to print mostly on matte (Hahnemuhle PhotoRag), though I really like the Epson premium lustre. My sales last year were about 60% B&W, 40% color; 90% Hahnemuhle, 10% lustre or glossy.
Thanks for any insight!
Posted by Barb Hansen on February 2, 2007 at 1:11 AM
Rick I have the DesignJet 130 and I love it. It's going on two yrs and I have had no problems. I have found that the ink consumption is really Low.....you get a lot of prints - alot- from a set of cartridges. Paper selections are improving and it appears that Hp has joined with Hahnemule for some better mat papers. As for the quality, I don't know if you are familliar with Color Span printers which were designed as high end "giclee" printers $40,000 to $60,000, the print heads were actually designed and built by HP. Another benefit of the 130 is that I can change the print heads and their is one for each color. Michael Anderson also has the DesignJet 130 maybe he can offer some other info. Good Luck on your descision.
Posted by Mark Simms on February 2, 2007 at 9:19 AM
I've owned a DJ130 for 2 years now. 3 things that against the printer:
1) printing on Photo Rag - dye printers show best prints with lustre or glossy stock; I've tried rag papers and the images are all washed-out.
2) black and white printing - the DJ130 has proven to be a terrible B&W print maker.....there are always color casts present. HP has acknowledged the problem and attempted to solve it with custom profiles. However, if you want really professional results, it's best to get a used DJ130 on Ebay, and convert it using Lyson's Quad black inkset and the quadtone rip to properly calibrate the printer.
3) For longevity, dye prints require a UV coating / inhibitor....so you'll need to invest in a sprayer and compressor if you are doing high volumes or large prints.
All in all, based on your requirements, I'd go with the 7800.
Rick: first and foremost, Epson is more expensive because it's Epson. Our Toyota trucks used to be a lot less expensive until they got quite popular, too.
You need to pick a printer based on your paper choices. Based on what you've declared, the Epson is going to be the way to go. I own both a 7600 and the DJ130. The 7600 is a dedicated BW printer for me (using a RIP), and my DJ130 does my color stuff ONLY on Hp Premium Plus Photo Satin. This will probably be my one thousandth time saying this online, but I have not seen an rc-type inkjet photo paper that is superior to Photo Satin. The surface qualities rival Fuji Crystal Archive matte, as does the gamut and brilliance (in fact, dmax is better). You do not need to coat DJ130 dye prints unless you plan on showing loose prints in wet conditions. Photo Satin with the stock dyes (and no coating) is rated for 82 years under glass by Wilhelm. Color prints with this combination are simply incredible.
The DJ130 has only one RIP available and it's as expensive as the printer. This will be the only way to get satisfactory BW results. The DJ130 rating for HP Photo Matte paper is only 24 years, and Photorag is yet to be tested by Wilhelm.
I dislike Epson Premium Luster (I dislike all Epson papers!), but Epson printers and software/firmware are plain better than what HP produces. Based on your specs, I think the 7800 is the way. The DJ130 is decently built, but feels 'plasticky' and makes a lot of funky noise. On the contrary, Epson wide format's are elegant printers that are well built. In the end it should come down to what results you want on paper (or plastic, in the case of rc-type papers )
The eight inks of the Epson are not going to produce any better of a color print than will the DJ130, but it works to the benefit of ABW/BW printing. ABW is not perfect either, and is still subject to metamerism and color cross-overs. The only way around this is with a RIP and/or monochrome inkset. You cannot expect killer color and killer bw from the same machine (this is why I own two!).
I hope I covered everything.
Posted by Mark Simms on February 3, 2007 at 1:10 PM
re: but Epson printers and software/firmware are plain better than what HP produces.
Amen Brother...my DJ130 must have the plug pulled because they provided no power switch.
The reason it must have the plug pulled is because whenever there is a jam condition (or "other" problem), the firmware goes into a loop and then throws-out the dreaded "hardware failure" icon...which indicates to call HP service.
Had I done that for all of the times that happened, I'd have spent about $1000 on un-needed HP service calls !
There are so many quirks and nuances to this printer, that if it did not produce spectacular color prints, it would have little value. Gotta have good nerves and patience with this one.
I totally agree with your additional comments, Mark, especially the last two sentences.
I have a power switch on my DJ130, and I've never quite encountered the problem you have (although I've had plenty of other time-wasting issues). Indeed, it's a good thing the color prints are spectacular, otherwise I would have dynamited it long ago!
Posted by Rene Pirolt on February 3, 2007 at 11:19 PM
Rick,
I have had my HP130 for over two years now, and I absolutely love it! Fortunately I have NOT had any of the quirky issues Mark described. (...no power button?)
There are some things to be aware of, however.
Printing on mat paper with the HP dye inks, yields very flat results. You can skip this printer if you want to use mat paper.
I also agree that this printer, with its canned profiles, is no good at printing B&W prints - which is a real bummer because I do a lot of B&W photography!
What the printer is good at is printing color prints on semigloss surfaces. I use the printer ONLY for printing on HP Premium Plus Photo Satin (similar to Epsons Premium Luster), which is a semigloss paper. The prints are stunningly beautiful, especially when you go 16x20 and larger. However, I will eventually purchase another pigment-ink printer in order to print B&W and on other media (...I have my eyes on the new 44" HPs).
If you don’t mind these limitations the HP is a great value. Otherwise I would go with the Epson.
Regarding the longevity - if you use HP media, Wilhelm research claims 82years+ for most paper if framed under glass. (http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/dj130.html)
I am not sure if you saw the prints that I brought to the shindig. Some of us also created 16x20 prints from various printers, Epson, Canon, and HP using identical files. It was interesting that all every printer produced a gorgeous print, and with the exception of certain hues, the overall color of the prints matched almost dead on.
If you are ever interested, I would be more than happy to print you a couple sample prints from your files (that is on HP Premium Plus Photo Satin of course!).
Posted by Rick Dunn on February 4, 2007 at 5:47 PM
Thanks for feedback and suggestions everyone. Looks like the Epson is the more sensible choice; I could change from the Hahnemuhle, but can't do without printing b&w.
René - I did see your prints at the shindig. It's actually why I started seriously looking at the 130. Scott B. described the comparison study you guys put together. All of the prints looked good; the 130 on the satin looked fantastic, and just a little better than the print from the Epson 4000 on equivalent paper. It had just a little more pop than the others. If I could do without printing b&w, I'd take you up on your generous offer and test out a couple of color prints prior to picking up a 130. Looks like the 7800 is the way to go though. What do you use for b&w? Or do you send them over to Richie?
Posted by Mel Ladewig on February 5, 2007 at 10:50 AM
Rick,
Have you looked at the new HP printers? (Z2100 and Z3100) Both are available in a 24" body and are pigment printers. There are some reviews on the Z3100 on luminous landscape. Unfortunately the Z3100 is about $1000 more than the Epson, but it has lots of advantages over the 7800. Among them is that it carries the matte and photo black at the same time, each with their own head. The Z3100 also has a built in colorimeter and builds its own ICC profiles, so you can use any paper you like.
I own an HP DJ130 and can echo most of the comments above. Color prints are stunning and the dmax is unbeatable. I had a problem early on with paper jamming, but HP customer service was fantastic. I talked to someone right away, tried a couple fixes on the phone, and then they decided to fed ex a new printer to me the next day. So even if there are a few quirks, customer service has been great for me. I have one other point that has not been emphasized much yet. The 130 allows you to print BIG. And the big prints are truly stunning. I'm not sure how big you want to sell your images, but the option to display them big is a real draw to an audience.
Posted by Rene Pirolt on February 6, 2007 at 9:48 PM
Rick - I have used labs as well as a Rich V to print my B&W, but I would really like a printer of my own. I have my eye on the new HP Z3100, but they are a bit too expensive.
HP did send me sample prints from their new Z3100, and I am very impressed. Both color and B&W look amazing. Their most incredible sample, however, was printed on a piece of canvas. I never cared for canvas and this made me change my mind. Also the Z3100 colors are pigment inks, rather than dye, so the printing on mat will look a lot better.
Posted by Rick Dunn on February 8, 2007 at 7:23 PM
Thanks for the additional info guys, and the lead on the HP. I hadn't heard about it before; it looks very interesting. I'll have to look into getting some sample prints. $4K is a lot though... Us Colorado guys should rent a cheap apartment and do a time-share on some nice printing equipment. Rent + a nice printer split 10 ways wouldn't be a bad deal. Or we could just use Richie's basement!
Rene - I saw a $1k rebate on the HP site if you trade-in an older large format printer..., plus $500 in free media...
Posted by Don Miller on February 9, 2007 at 10:18 PM
I have the 7800. I like it, but it can clog if it's unused too long. I will not buy another large printer that needs to have the black ink swapped.
Discussion
12 repliesMy questions is...the DesignJet is less than 1/2 the price of the Epson. What's missing? Is 8 inks that much better than 6; is it a noticeable difference on continuous tone images? Is pigment that much better than dye? Is the HP built cheaply? Or is Epson just that much more expensive? I've been VERY happy with my Epson 1280 and will keep it for small prints, but I'm struggling to see why the Epson is so much more.
FYI...I like to print mostly on matte (Hahnemuhle PhotoRag), though I really like the Epson premium lustre. My sales last year were about 60% B&W, 40% color; 90% Hahnemuhle, 10% lustre or glossy.
Thanks for any insight!
1) printing on Photo Rag - dye printers show best prints with lustre or glossy stock; I've tried rag papers and the images are all washed-out.
2) black and white printing - the DJ130 has proven to be a terrible B&W print maker.....there are always color casts present. HP has acknowledged the problem and attempted to solve it with custom profiles. However, if you want really professional results, it's best to get a used DJ130 on Ebay, and convert it using Lyson's Quad black inkset and the quadtone rip to properly calibrate the printer.
3) For longevity, dye prints require a UV coating / inhibitor....so you'll need to invest in a sprayer and compressor if you are doing high volumes or large prints.
All in all, based on your requirements, I'd go with the 7800.
You need to pick a printer based on your paper choices. Based on what you've declared, the Epson is going to be the way to go. I own both a 7600 and the DJ130. The 7600 is a dedicated BW printer for me (using a RIP), and my DJ130 does my color stuff ONLY on Hp Premium Plus Photo Satin. This will probably be my one thousandth time saying this online, but I have not seen an rc-type inkjet photo paper that is superior to Photo Satin. The surface qualities rival Fuji Crystal Archive matte, as does the gamut and brilliance (in fact, dmax is better). You do not need to coat DJ130 dye prints unless you plan on showing loose prints in wet conditions. Photo Satin with the stock dyes (and no coating) is rated for 82 years under glass by Wilhelm. Color prints with this combination are simply incredible.
The DJ130 has only one RIP available and it's as expensive as the printer. This will be the only way to get satisfactory BW results. The DJ130 rating for HP Photo Matte paper is only 24 years, and Photorag is yet to be tested by Wilhelm.
I dislike Epson Premium Luster (I dislike all Epson papers!), but Epson printers and software/firmware are plain better than what HP produces. Based on your specs, I think the 7800 is the way. The DJ130 is decently built, but feels 'plasticky' and makes a lot of funky noise. On the contrary, Epson wide format's are elegant printers that are well built. In the end it should come down to what results you want on paper (or plastic, in the case of rc-type papers
The eight inks of the Epson are not going to produce any better of a color print than will the DJ130, but it works to the benefit of ABW/BW printing. ABW is not perfect either, and is still subject to metamerism and color cross-overs. The only way around this is with a RIP and/or monochrome inkset. You cannot expect killer color and killer bw from the same machine (this is why I own two!).
I hope I covered everything.
Amen Brother...my DJ130 must have the plug pulled because they provided no power switch.
The reason it must have the plug pulled is because whenever there is a jam condition (or "other" problem), the firmware goes into a loop and then throws-out the dreaded "hardware failure" icon...which indicates to call HP service.
Had I done that for all of the times that happened, I'd have spent about $1000 on un-needed HP service calls !
There are so many quirks and nuances to this printer, that if it did not produce spectacular color prints, it would have little value. Gotta have good nerves and patience with this one.
I have a power switch on my DJ130, and I've never quite encountered the problem you have (although I've had plenty of other time-wasting issues). Indeed, it's a good thing the color prints are spectacular, otherwise I would have dynamited it long ago!
I have had my HP130 for over two years now, and I absolutely love it! Fortunately I have NOT had any of the quirky issues Mark described. (...no power button?)
There are some things to be aware of, however.
Printing on mat paper with the HP dye inks, yields very flat results. You can skip this printer if you want to use mat paper.
I also agree that this printer, with its canned profiles, is no good at printing B&W prints - which is a real bummer because I do a lot of B&W photography!
What the printer is good at is printing color prints on semigloss surfaces. I use the printer ONLY for printing on HP Premium Plus Photo Satin (similar to Epsons Premium Luster), which is a semigloss paper. The prints are stunningly beautiful, especially when you go 16x20 and larger. However, I will eventually purchase another pigment-ink printer in order to print B&W and on other media (...I have my eyes on the new 44" HPs).
If you don’t mind these limitations the HP is a great value. Otherwise I would go with the Epson.
Regarding the longevity - if you use HP media, Wilhelm research claims 82years+ for most paper if framed under glass. (http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/dj130.html)
I am not sure if you saw the prints that I brought to the shindig. Some of us also created 16x20 prints from various printers, Epson, Canon, and HP using identical files. It was interesting that all every printer produced a gorgeous print, and with the exception of certain hues, the overall color of the prints matched almost dead on.
If you are ever interested, I would be more than happy to print you a couple sample prints from your files (that is on HP Premium Plus Photo Satin of course!).
René - I did see your prints at the shindig. It's actually why I started seriously looking at the 130. Scott B. described the comparison study you guys put together. All of the prints looked good; the 130 on the satin looked fantastic, and just a little better than the print from the Epson 4000 on equivalent paper. It had just a little more pop than the others. If I could do without printing b&w, I'd take you up on your generous offer and test out a couple of color prints prior to picking up a 130. Looks like the 7800 is the way to go though. What do you use for b&w? Or do you send them over to Richie?
Have you looked at the new HP printers? (Z2100 and Z3100) Both are available in a 24" body and are pigment printers. There are some reviews on the Z3100 on luminous landscape. Unfortunately the Z3100 is about $1000 more than the Epson, but it has lots of advantages over the 7800. Among them is that it carries the matte and photo black at the same time, each with their own head. The Z3100 also has a built in colorimeter and builds its own ICC profiles, so you can use any paper you like.
I own an HP DJ130 and can echo most of the comments above. Color prints are stunning and the dmax is unbeatable. I had a problem early on with paper jamming, but HP customer service was fantastic. I talked to someone right away, tried a couple fixes on the phone, and then they decided to fed ex a new printer to me the next day. So even if there are a few quirks, customer service has been great for me. I have one other point that has not been emphasized much yet. The 130 allows you to print BIG. And the big prints are truly stunning. I'm not sure how big you want to sell your images, but the option to display them big is a real draw to an audience.
HP did send me sample prints from their new Z3100, and I am very impressed. Both color and B&W look amazing. Their most incredible sample, however, was printed on a piece of canvas. I never cared for canvas and this made me change my mind. Also the Z3100 colors are pigment inks, rather than dye, so the printing on mat will look a lot better.
Rene - I saw a $1k rebate on the HP site if you trade-in an older large format printer..., plus $500 in free media...