Hello there,
Something provocative:
I see a lot of awesome images in the galleries. So one thing I ask my self constantly, "how much do you guys think does your subject influence the quality/appeal of your images?"
I mean I really envy you people . I live in Austria, we dont have yosemity, monument valley, death valley etc.
I live close to a small national park, that I visit regularly for shooting, but opportunities here are limited. Some trees, meadows but no grand vistas, no mountains, no rocks, no lakes.
Whenever I see a striking image from one of the parks in the states - lets say halfdome shrouded partly in mist, some alpenglow - (etc. you name it) - I think, heck maybe I could have come up with that image if only I had the chance to be there. Dont get me wrong, not that I want to imply I would have come up with the same quality, But having a scene with such potential surely helps to get a great shot, does it?
It's kinda hard getting an aspen-fall image if there are no aspens around...
The question here is photographic quality vs. photographers creativity.
How important do you think is the subject matter? Do you think you could create an jaw-dropping image with both artistic quality and mass-appeal without having an outstanding vista that looks simply awesome without much input by the photographer
?
Do you think that having an outstanding vista in front of the lens counteracts creativity because one is simply drawn into the grand scene and forgets to apply some creative experiments/approaches?
I would love to hear some opinions and this is thought-provoking on purpose,
Regards, Dietrich
Posted by Guy Tal on February 10, 2007 at 10:25 AM
Dietrich, these are great and important questions. Some will say there are images everywhere and the creative photographer is never without opportunity but I think this is only true to a point. I chose to live in the American West because it inspires me and it took a long journey and a lot of effort to get here.
Still, even though I live right at the foot of a beautiful mountain range, I put about 30,000 miles on my vehicle every year to explore other places.
A lot depends on what you're after as a person too. I want to be part of these places more than anything else. Photographing them is an extension of my love for wild scenery. I know other people who make amazing images in their own back yard or city/county parks and don't venture too far. Their work is fantastic but it's a life that doesn't appeal to me.
Ultimately you need to photograph what you love and what inspires you, wherever and whatever it is.
Guy
Posted by Kent Staubus on February 10, 2007 at 12:42 PM
I'm more of the thinking that we are surrounded by beauty, and it's the job of the photographer to bring this out so others can see it. It takes a good photographer to make a good photo, generally speaking. After all, a good photo evokes an emotion.
I photo daily but don't live in what others would call an inherently scenic place. However, the most important ingredient of a photo is the light. If you have great light, you can make a great photo. I've seen this over and over. I've taken something like 600 photos with my D80 since I bought it late November. It was just two nights ago that I was able to make what I consider to be my first really good photo though. It was a common subject: the lead engine on a freight train traveling through the snow across the farm land near me, coming around a bend. It's a very common scene. However, what made this one unique was the light. I shot it at night. You only see the headlights and the twin curves of the steel rail lit up. The rest is black. It's very minimalist but seems to be highly effective.
Learn to recognize great light, then know what to do with it.
Kent in SD
Posted by Kent Staubus on February 10, 2007 at 12:47 PM
Still, even though I live right at the foot of a beautiful mountain range, I put about 30,000 miles on my vehicle every year to explore other places.
. . . . I know other people who make amazing images in their own back yard or city/county parks and don't venture too far.
Guy--
Some of your best photos were simple close ups of leaves or a single leaf. You pretty much made those in your back yard. But then again, if you drove 30,000 miles, you simply have a bigger back yard than what others claim.
Thanks for the answers!
I like the view you have on your photography, Guy. I guess that's what most do. Make photographs of subjects that inspires and impresses you most. I do the same - it's nature or a bit more general - still scenery. And if I had the chance to photograph the american west - i would rather do that instead of doing this in my backyard (as I do now) I am not (yet) in the situation to go to other places that I find inspiring and worth photographing, so I have to stick to whats offered close to my home. However here in Austria we have some awesome landscape - mountains lakes etc, but nothing tops the american west imho.
@Kent, I totally agree about the light, it is so important to have good light. In good light an ordinary scene transforms into something magic. I have a similar story: Got my 5D in late December, I already have pressed the shutter more than 2500 times, but maybe 5 images really stand out.
Thanks for the answers!
I like the view you have on your photography, Guy. I guess that's what most do. Make photographs of subjects that inspires and impresses you most. I do the same - it's nature or a bit more general - still scenery. And if I had the chance to photograph the american west - i would rather do that instead of doing this in my backyard (as I do now) I am not (yet) in the situation to go to other places that I find inspiring and worth photographing, so I have to stick to whats offered close to my home. However here in Austria we have some awesome landscape - mountains lakes etc, but nothing tops the american west imho.
@Kent, I totally agree about the light, it is so important to have good light. In good light an ordinary scene transforms into something magic. I have a similar story: Got my 5D in late December, I already have pressed the shutter more than 2500 times, but maybe 5 images really stand out.
I dont know why my answer is displayed twice - sorry
Posted by William Vrolyk on February 10, 2007 at 2:09 PM
Do you think that having an outstanding vista in front of the lens counteracts creativity because one is simply drawn into the grand scene and forgets to apply some creative experiments/approaches?
Dietrich, I think outstanding vistas inspires creativity. Imagine an outstanding vista before you. Your lens can only take in a portion of what your eyes can. What part of the scene would you include? Leave out? What elements would you select to gain depth and perspective? How would this look in the early morning? Or late in the evening? How would the weather affect this scene? Clouds can add terrific drama to an already stunning scene. How should I treat the foreground? The questions are endless and they all have to do with creativity. Photographers return again and again to the same beautiful places, not to repeat the same shots they have done before but to find new versions of it.
Thanks for the thought provoking thread.
And, by the way, I have always thought that Austria is one of the most picturesque and beautiful countries in the world.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Posted by David Senesac on February 10, 2007 at 4:11 PM
Guy >>>"...Some will say there are images everywhere and the creative photographer is never without opportunity but I think this is only true to a point."
Dietrich, I'll echo what Guy wrote. It may be true one can make a fine landscape image with exceptional light and weather given a modest landscape. However if one has exceptional light and weather with a great landscape, the potential is simply greater. There is a vast range of "fine" quality that given subjective evaluation by many would provide differing ranges of perceived fine value. At the top most exceptional images simply have great elements with which to work from. Although there are some that seem to resist or even resent that being the situation maybe even in a small way out of jealousy or lack of fairness, it is just simple common sense. David
Posted by Don Miller on February 10, 2007 at 4:35 PM
Not enough landscape opportunities in Austria, eh? I live in Illinois. They wanted to film "The Sound of Music" in Peoria, but at the last minute had to settle for your area.
Posted by Kent Staubus on February 10, 2007 at 4:45 PM
At the top most exceptional images simply have great elements with which to work from. Although there are some that seem to resist or even resent that being the situation maybe even in a small way out of jealousy or lack of fairness, it is just simple common sense.
But David, we are discussing art, an inherently subjective subject. Honestly, I don't get all excited when I see all the Half Dome clone shots out there. I mean sure, they're nice, but I'm not exactly running out the door to go make my own. A lot also comes down to personal inspiration, something Guy was getting at. For example, many people think Florida is the ultimate distination for photography. In the current Outdoor Photographer magazine there's even an article on a Clyde Butcher type photographer down there. I've been to Florida three times in the past ten years, and honestly, the place bores me silly about 80% of the time. No snow, no waterfalls, no frozen lakes, no big critters. (The alligators are kind of cool so that makes up some of that 20% ) I'm not trying to run Florida down, but just pointing out that a place some find awesome and inspiring others might find monotonous. Maybe what Dietrich needs to find is a subject or place that inspires him more. And catch it in great light. If I were to move to Utah, would I make the same kinds of photos as Guy? Even though we have similar photo equipment, probably not. For one thing, I'd be chasing those yellow Union Pacific trains across the rocky landscape! And, I like to shoot at night which is tough for him to do given his subjects. Some of the photos I admire the most are the ones where the photographer showed me a new way to look at a common subject, and realize just how special it really is. I call that, "revealing the magic of the every day."
Kent in SD
Posted by Matt Dallos on February 10, 2007 at 6:01 PM
I have thought about this same subject many times..even just this afternoon on a snowy hike. My favorite images have not come from a grand vista..they have come when I spend enough time in a location to begin to understand the interactions of light and form that are unique to specific location. These are images that go beyond simply capturing a vista, they begin to communicate what you saw and more importantly what you felt.
I was more inspired to create photographs this afternoon on a cloudy, frigid day on a wooded ridgetop than I have ever been at any grand landscape...but I guess that this can be different for different people.
Think of some writers that can make a tree feel as grand as any canyon. As photographers I feel that we have the ability to do the same.
Some of your best photos were simple close ups of leaves or a single leaf. You pretty much made those in your back yard.
Actually this is a great illustration of the distinction I was trying to make - I could have made them in my back yard (I do have aspens and maples there) but I didn't. Even my intimate close-ups are from high mountains, deserts, canyons, and other wild places. It's because that's where I feel most inspired.
Hello all!
True, Austria is beautifil, we also have beautiflul cities. But it is not "exotic", and it is is also not so diverse. No deserts, no sea, no canyons. We have much, but much of the same. And maybe I am just a bit tired of it...
I going to comment again, no time at the moment...
Regards
Dietrich
Posted by Jack Graham on February 11, 2007 at 6:36 AM
Dietrich,
I have been to Austria and there are some absolutely great places to shoot. I guess it all depends on your situation. I have had to live in Ohio for a few years because of business. Don't get me wrong , its not as bad as you may think. Ohio is very far from the great National Parks , deserts, vistas of the western US however, I made the best of it and enjoyed my time here immensely. However, now my wife & I are in the position to be able to relocate. We are moving to the pacific Northwest region of the US where photo ops are plentiful. Maybe someday you can get to a place you can enjoy photographically. In the mean time, don't give up on Austria. Besides how many images of Half Dome and the 3 mittens in Monument Valley do we really need?
JG
Posted by Mike Moats on February 11, 2007 at 9:41 AM
Hey Dietrich, I live in the Suburbs of Detroit, Michigan and I feel your pain for not having grand landscapes to shoot. I have visited the west and east in the USA, and have some great icon images (which I never post because they've been done to death), but cannot afford to travel to these places enough to satisfy my needs to shoot. When I discovered close-up/macro photography, It opened a huge world of subjects to shoot right at the local metro parks systems, the closest being 10 miles of my home. I can shoot on a daily basis any time of the year and find interesting and appealing images. I know this doesn't solve your wants to shoot the grand lanscapes, but it can fill many hours of fun, and sharppen your camera skills untill to get the chance to travel to the icons.
Posted by Alice Scoggins on February 11, 2007 at 10:13 AM
Something I attempt to do is to make images from more simple, intimate subjects. I do this partly because I enjoy it, but mostly because I have time constraints that keep me from travelling to the grand vistas. I'm not far from the beautiful Blue Ridge and Great Smoky mountains, but just don't have time to get out as much as I would like. As a result, I spend A LOT of time around a small lake near my house. You have a park to go to, so I expect that you will have similar opportunities. I have created quite a portfolio of images, some that I feel are very good, from this small lake. Many of the images are not something that would appear on a magazine cover, or perhaps even in a gallery, but they are images that I feel took some "vision" to create. You will be amzed at what you can find! My images are perhaps not "jaw dropping" but certainly satisfying to me.
Having the grand vista in front of you does not guarantee that you will have the vision to make that jaw-dropping image! I have seen many images of beautiful places that were mediocre images, and many awesome images of more simple subjects. I think it's all about how you perceive your surroundings...that "vision" I guess.
Hallo all, thanks for the awesome input.
David was probably closest to what I felt, or what motivated me to bring up this topic. My opinion is that if the scenery is already "very" beautiful, with the same skill, effort and luck, one simply can create a more striking image than with mediocre subject matter. It's also all about inspiration and excitement about subject matter - here I am with Guy.
Take the famous Barn at the Tetons as an example - photographed countless times, however it simply looks good. Everyone - even my mother (sorry mum) could take a cool image of that location. Given some nice equipment, inspiration, light and talent - and you have an awesome image (still with the constraint that it might bore viewers because it has been overdone). With subject matter that is not that impressive in the first place, i think it takes more effort of the photographer to create something appealing, however the question remains if this would have the same impact on the viewer.
But the famous Galen Rowell once stated that photography does not become easy just because there's an awesome landscape - I guess he knew what he was talking about.
I think it is obvious why professional landscape photographers focus on the national parks - I would do the same. First, again because the are simply drawn to it,inspired by it. Second because they know they can sell the images easier than the (also great) image of the petrol station in their hometown.
After all - we all like our images to be appreciated by others, and common taste is very hmm, lets say ,mediocre. If one has a great image of the tetons in his portfolio, I guess this will sell better than a display of a no-name mountain - because people see more meaning in subject-matter they know - they can relate to it. They have been there themselves, seen it in reality. Then they see an awesome rendering of that scene, probably better looking than what they have seen at the location. Sure this has some major impact. And I think that this can also be a very strong motivator for a photographer.
I mean, images I show to my friends from my one and only trip to the states just yield more ah's and oh's than images from my backyard. They see the mittens, and say, "wow thats pretty cool". Then I show them some trees, and they go, "hmm well, trees..."
Again I want to stress than Austria/Europe has a lot to offer. Same applies to Italy - anyone that has been to Tuscany knows what I am talking about, it is a gorgeous landscape there. I am sure I can get some awesome landscape shots from Europe.
"My" park the "National Park Donau-Auen" (Danube-Floodlands), is also beautiful - but the wide-angle potential is limited. So I already started to focus more on the intimate details. I also try to get better at trees - since there are a lot of them but no aspens
The solution is then to get closer - macro works everywhere, but again inspiration remains an important keyword.
However I am not so much into macro, and I also think that a - lets say mountainn scene - is better suited for hanging on a wall than that close up of some scary insect eyes - but maybe thats just me.
I hope I was able to somewhat include all ideas and input I got so far in this answer - it's a bit of work to do this in a foreign language.
It also helps a lot to get all your views on this issue. It helps seeing things a bit different and to better appreciate the photographic potential in my area
Lastly I want to appologize for typos, gramatical errors and obscure sentences - I do my best to get the message through
Regards and thanks to all,
Dietrich from small Austria
Posted by Kent Staubus on February 11, 2007 at 3:53 PM
Take the famous Barn at the Tetons as an example - photographed countless times, however it simply looks good. Everyone - even my mother (sorry mum) could take a cool image of that location. Given some nice equipment, inspiration, light and talent - and you have an awesome image
Well, not so fast. You've only seen the good photos. I've been to that location three times in the past ten years (Wyoming is the state to my west) and each time the light was just not good. I didn't even bother getting my camera out. I can make a significantly better somewhere else where the light is stunning than I can at the barn location when the light is not good. It still comes back to having great light.
Lastly I want to appologize for typos, gramatical errors and obscure sentences - I do my best to get the message through
You have nothing to worry about--you write very well. I see examples of 18 year olds here that can't write this well.
Thank you Kent!
Yes, maybe I was a bit too fast with my example. However I think the subject-matter (the barn with tetons in the back) is forgiving. Maybe it's also because you waited for "very" special light (that's our mission ) that just would'nt happen. But if you would have taken that photograph - non-trained eyes just would have seen a cool image - not something that you intented to make, but still interesting for the viewer. It's just my guess.
One thing I also wanted to add to my previous posting is the importance of knowing an area well. I think the best of my images stem from my photosessions in that park close to my home. It's because I know so many spots, I can go and re-shoot, in better light. I know exactly which area looks best at a certain time in the year/ hour of the day. Thats a luxury I don't have in other places since I am there just for a few hours - maybe a week.
And some opportunities just reveal themselves because one is at the right spot at the right time. I am there often, so I am probably at the right spot very often, and due to statistics I also happen to be there at the right time (from time to time)
And - this is a bit esoteric - I have a friendship with that area, I am so close to it emotionally so that i probably approach it with a different mindset than what I am able to do in new areas.
Ok, all for now,
Regards, Dietrich
Dietich. The location where you live is a huge determining factor on what you shoot and how you train yourself to look for images without the "grand vistas." I tend to shoot flowers, birds or combine images and effects in photoshop I have no grand vista locally. When I do travel to the midwest I am amazed and overwhelmed by the choices and the number of national parks to chose from. I challenge a grand scenic photographer to come to the urban east coast and spend a couple of weeks trying to find interesting subjects without turning to macro, avian or flower photography. In other words, the imagination is the key to good photography and thinking and planning when, how and where to take the image is the background prep no matter where you live.
By the way I'm very likely older than your "Mum" and could get a darn good image of the barn you mentioned (if I ever get there).
Dietrich: I dont know if you will know the phrase, but *the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence*. In other words, I'd spend less time worrying about how less-dramatic Austrian landscapes are compared to U.S., and spend much more time just being out there making photographs. You seem to have this idea that a photograph needs to be "jaw-dropping" or have mass appeal to be good or successful, and that really couldn't be further from the truth.
The reality is that you live where you do, and it's far more practical and economical to make photographs of the places that you know and love the most. It's surely less practical to make trips to the U.S. or elsewhere, and the photographs you return with will likely lack the depth and understanding than will your photos from 'home'.
The world's greatest scenery will not make you a better photographer nor give you great images. Getting out there and making lots of photographs - regardless of the place - will make you better able to respond to what is before you. Try not to get too hung up on amazing light and jaw-dropping scenery. Great photographs can be made anywhere under any light.
One of the wonderful things about nature photography is that there is plenty of room for different approaches. Grand scenic photography is generally what most think of when the word "landscape" is muttered, but it's really just the tip of the iceberg. I think it's worth investigating what inspires you and then what you want to say about that. If grand vistas are that thing, then they are worth pursuing in my estimation. However, there is no shame in pursuing something personal to you that may be quieter and dare I say, less crowd pleasing. I personally live in the upper midwest of the United States. The places I tend to photograph are reletively flat and heavily wooded. In other words, it is a difficult place to make photographs. Regardless, excellent photographic oppertunities exist, most of the time unnoticed by the masses simply because they are quiet slices of nature that don't reveal themselves with ease. I photograph here because this place speaks to me, more so than a dramatic mountain vista - seriously.
While the places I photograph are less likely to "wow" those who equate drama with a successful image, I am happy to know that my photographs have value to those that live in this region. It's a gift to be able to capture a feeling that others have for a place but can't readily express. It seems as though my entire lifetime won't be enough time to capture what I want to show of this place. I guess what I'm trying to say, is to make sure that your photography is in fact "your's". It's easy to be seduced by the praise of others, and to simply try and copy the formula of images that receive this praise. While I can only speak for myself, I find it much more rewarding to find my own path and to see where it takes me. Best of luck.
Thanks again for the input!
Yes, I have to admit that I am a bit of that "If only I could ..."-person. And I know that phrase
It applies to me, but I guess we all have it in us from time to time. Psychologist state that we rank things higher that we dont have, or that we once had respectively.
Sure I have to focus on the opportunities that are around me, I neither have time nor the money to travel far - except for some vaccations - and I will come to the US again, no doubt about that
But maybe I am not so different from the people that have the US.Nationalparks as their main-subjects: I just think that this scenery looks awesome and it itches and urges me to photograph it.
But I have to agree with you Michael,Patricia&Joel: My best images come from places close to my home. I also have some good shots from vaccations, but the majority of my "good" work is from Austria. But if I only had the chance to spend the same time.... OK I stop it sorry
Thanks for all the good feedback I got. It helps to shape the own vision and opinion.
Regards Dietrich
Dietrich, I "hear" where you are coming from but I believe that Joel Truckenbrod has it figured out. Read his post again. I can only add that knowing your area is of immense value. Learn to work the land wherever you are. As you get to know a place you will see more and more potential for wonderful images that nobody ever thought of before. They will be "yours" because the place has become yours. The "if only's" are just wishfull thinking and even if you could go to Tuscany or Yosemite or Peggy's Cove or Moscow chances are very good that you'd come home with "tourist cliches" that have been done to death by a thousand other amature wannabe's because you won't have enough time to make the place yours. Photography is for the wannabe's, but what we do can only be appreciated by people who think with the right half of their brain. Stop worrying about trying to impress the masses and be true to your art and be true to your heart. Learn to "see with your heart".
Thank you Bob for your encouragement. As mentioned above, I agree with the benefit of knowing an area very well - I made that experience myself.
But I also think that training&practice, the development of a deeper understanding about use of light and composition, and the so often mentioned "own vision" can be applied with success everywhere. A person who dedicates much of his time thinking how to improve his photography, and actually practices photography by shooting as often as possible will eventually get better. He will avoid "tourist cliches" anyway (if he wants to) and does his "own" thing in every place - given enough time of course.
Thanks and Regards,
Dietrich
Posted by Wayne Rhodus on February 15, 2007 at 2:30 PM
Dietrich, there has been lots of good dialog with this thread, very interesting perspectives. I have felt the same frustration you mention with my location. Eastern Kansas isn't on most people's list of destinations for spectacular landscape photography.
One thing I did to overcome my biased perception was to find a nice location to photograph near my home where I could make images over the course of a year. I dedicated myself to returning to a local country farm pond in morning and evening light, during all seasons and in all kinds of weather. In other words I tried to connect to the place, to become part of how it (the landscape) "felt" and responded to changing weather and light.
My goal was to learn how light can transform even the most modest of scenes into something astetically moving. I emerged from that experience with a much greater appreciation of what light can do to transform a marginal landscape scene. I also learned that you don't have to travel the world to find great light and beauty.
I think what you're looking for is within your reach. Make a plan, seek out a place near to you that you can return to over and over and become part of it. Then it will reveal itself to you through your images! Great thread ... Good luck!
Wayne, thank you very much. I appreciate a lot the impact my first post had on all participants. I really loved to hear all the opinions. I also can relate to your point of view. Actually, since there is no other way at the moment, what you describe is what I as well do in my "shooting-area". There are some places I visit over and over again. The seasons change, the weather changes. Sometimes I come home with an image of a place that I visited so often before and "suddently" I have an image that excites me - from a spot that I already have done over and over again, just to be out shooting, getting the feeling of photographing. Many times the images do not work out and i eventually delete them. But then there is that perfect alignment of elements - and a good idea and inspiration and I go home with an awesome image from a spot that i thought is not very photogenic or has nothing more to offer photographically. Eventually I will be able to extend my area of shooting
I want to thank all that read and participated.
Regards to all,
Dietrich
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on February 16, 2007 at 12:51 AM
Dietrich, I found it very amusing to hear an Austrian complain about a lack of inspirational photo opportunities.
You get no sympathy from a Houston resident.
When I first arrived in Houston from Denver eight years ago, I was convinced that Ihad arrived in photographic HELL. It took a couple of years to appreciate that there were GREAT photo opportunities within a short driving distance. Of course, I had to stop looking for those grand scenc vistas with craggy peaks or red rock canyons. It turns out the Texas Gulf Coast offers world class opportunities for bird photography. I had NEVER even attempted to take a picture of a bird before. The thought had never crossed my mind. So it took a while before I bought a longer telephoto lens and then quickly upgraded that to a 500mm. Now, in some ways, I will miss Texas and the birds when I finally return to live in Denver full time.
So, as you and others have said, I feel it is most important to find a location that can be visted often at your leisure and in different seasons and lighting. That is where I find my most satisfying pictures. I was pretty miserable until I accepted what Houston had to offer.
By the way, I was born in Austria (Burgenland) so if you are traveling through Denver, please give us a shout and we'll see if we can find you a few inspirational vistas.
Posted by Richard Wong on February 16, 2007 at 1:20 AM
I believe that the first hurdle to overcome when in a less than amazing scenic place is to not view shooting that place as a sort of practice for something "better". Approach it as the real thing, and you might develop inspiration to find your own shots wherever you are.
Posted by Marko Trebušak on February 16, 2007 at 4:38 AM
Austria boring and without inspiring vistas !!! I'm living slightly south from you, but I could fill up few lifetimes photographing just Slovenian mountains never to think about other parts of the country!!! OK it might be that I use lenses in 100-700 mm range more than wide angle lens, but never the less. I think that Michael wrote it best - "grass is always greener on the other side of the fence". "I wish to" is a dangerous state of mind, and I know it well. Only knowledge of your local area will set you free, as others pointed out. So to answere your original question: it is posible to create appealing photo in not-so-great places. Otherwise, do you think we would have so much great photographers in Europe, if you would need US national park to create great photo. Just look at work of Joe Cornish, Paavo Hamunen, Paul Schilliger, Guy Edwardes to name just few.
And if you would like to see some spectacular views from near by, contact me. We are having photo tour in June that will be held in Julian Alps - a really spectacular place.
Hello Bill,Richard&Marko: thanks for your replies. I agree it is a almost a blasphemy to whine about lack of opportunities in Austria. But two reasons for my complaints: First of all i live in Vienna, and the beautiful landscape is in the west - sure its not far to travel to these places by car but since I am pursuing this as a hobby, I just dont have the time to visit these places.
Second, although the landscape in Austria/europe is gorgeous - there is simply no grand canyon, monument valley, rocky mountains - but that's what I should change in my mind.
I have done a trip to some national parks in the states back in 2005. I was so overwhelmed by the scenic, I was so incredible excited when I was photographing there, that I thought:, how can I get the same amount of "photographic pleasure" in Austria without having these gorgeous parks?.
Like you ,Bill, said I thought I am in photographic hell. The first two months i did not shoot at all. I just lacked ideas, inspiration. Then I slowly started to accept that I must take what's offered in my backyard and it turned out to be quite cool.
By the way, Bill, since you stem from Burgenland - the flattest of all counties in austria.. this is what I consider a photographic hell...:-) (If you are into mountains, )
On our 2005 trip we actually started in Denver - there we picked up the car - then drove to estes park - rocky mountains national park - i was in heaven. I understand your dissappointment as you moved to Houston (Dont know that place, but sure this is not Colorado). I come back to the states one day, there is zero doubt about that. And Colorado is on my list, so we might eventually meet! (I also know a photographer from Cortez - we became friends on that nostalgia-train between silverton and durango - want to visit him as well).
Marko, Slovenia has a beautiful landscape - so true. I cross slovenia regularly by car when i drive down to croatia/istria for summer holidays. Maybe I should get out of that car before I reach croatia and start photographing there...
And thank you for pointing out that phototour! I am considering it!
Wow feels great to get so much understanding. This helps me a lot.
Thank you very much guys!
Dietrich
Posted by Marko Trebušak on February 16, 2007 at 5:53 AM
Detrich, I went to your web, and you shall think about cityscape more. There are great photos from this genre on your web, and while it's not landscape...
Uf, if you travel regularly to Croatia, then you have at least a yearly holiday to keep your landscape photography going. If you have a part in this "where-to-go decision making", try to pick places on Croatian coast that have appeal to you. And if you'll search for it, I can assure you, that there are plenty.
And BDW I'm also amateur (such a word: doing something for love/pleasure) and I regularly drive 100 km in one direction for photography. And from Vienna to Karavanken isn't much more.
There is another NPN member living next door to you: http://popphackner.brainsware.org/index.php
Hello Marko!
Thanks for looking at my webpage - yes a bit un-ordered, one could not call it a portfolio. Just some fav. shots. I shall focus on cityscapes more - since i live in Austria's biggest city..
I go to croatia on a regular basis - my girlfriend is from croatia - her family has an appartement close to pula . I ve also been to the dalmatian coast - dubrovnik - awesome.
I really should get out and explore the little more remote places around vienna/austria. The opportunities are infinite...
By the way I know Verena and georgs photography, the make awesome stuff. I meet them on a exibition. Talked quite a bit with verena. They live in vienna but they are full time into the photography business. The have a lot of work from Ausria, but they as well travel around the world to create images they cannot make in austria...
Regards, Dietrich
Posted by Harald Rust on February 17, 2007 at 4:10 PM
I wish I could spend more time photographing Europe. As you say, there are spectactular scenes and subject matter to be found here in the U.S., but Europe has its own unique character.
Here's a link for inspiration. These stunning images by Anna Pagnacco were shot in the Italian Alps right across the border, not far from your locale. http://www.pbase.com/annapagnacco/a_world_in_black_and_white
Harald Rust
Discussion
35 repliesSomething provocative:
I see a lot of awesome images in the galleries. So one thing I ask my self constantly, "how much do you guys think does your subject influence the quality/appeal of your images?"
I mean I really envy you people
I live close to a small national park, that I visit regularly for shooting, but opportunities here are limited. Some trees, meadows but no grand vistas, no mountains, no rocks, no lakes.
Whenever I see a striking image from one of the parks in the states - lets say halfdome shrouded partly in mist, some alpenglow - (etc. you name it) - I think, heck maybe I could have come up with that image if only I had the chance to be there. Dont get me wrong, not that I want to imply I would have come up with the same quality, But having a scene with such potential surely helps to get a great shot, does it?
It's kinda hard getting an aspen-fall image if there are no aspens around...
The question here is photographic quality vs. photographers creativity.
How important do you think is the subject matter? Do you think you could create an jaw-dropping image with both artistic quality and mass-appeal without having an outstanding vista that looks simply awesome without much input by the photographer
?
Do you think that having an outstanding vista in front of the lens counteracts creativity because one is simply drawn into the grand scene and forgets to apply some creative experiments/approaches?
I would love to hear some opinions and this is thought-provoking on purpose,
Regards, Dietrich
Still, even though I live right at the foot of a beautiful mountain range, I put about 30,000 miles on my vehicle every year to explore other places.
A lot depends on what you're after as a person too. I want to be part of these places more than anything else. Photographing them is an extension of my love for wild scenery. I know other people who make amazing images in their own back yard or city/county parks and don't venture too far. Their work is fantastic but it's a life that doesn't appeal to me.
Ultimately you need to photograph what you love and what inspires you, wherever and whatever it is.
Guy
I photo daily but don't live in what others would call an inherently scenic place. However, the most important ingredient of a photo is the light. If you have great light, you can make a great photo. I've seen this over and over. I've taken something like 600 photos with my D80 since I bought it late November. It was just two nights ago that I was able to make what I consider to be my first really good photo though. It was a common subject: the lead engine on a freight train traveling through the snow across the farm land near me, coming around a bend. It's a very common scene. However, what made this one unique was the light. I shot it at night. You only see the headlights and the twin curves of the steel rail lit up. The rest is black. It's very minimalist but seems to be highly effective.
Learn to recognize great light, then know what to do with it.
Kent in SD
Guy--
Some of your best photos were simple close ups of leaves or a single leaf. You pretty much made those in your back yard. But then again, if you drove 30,000 miles, you simply have a bigger back yard than what others claim.
Kent in SD
I like the view you have on your photography, Guy. I guess that's what most do. Make photographs of subjects that inspires and impresses you most. I do the same - it's nature or a bit more general - still scenery. And if I had the chance to photograph the american west - i would rather do that instead of doing this in my backyard (as I do now) I am not (yet) in the situation to go to other places that I find inspiring and worth photographing, so I have to stick to whats offered close to my home. However here in Austria we have some awesome landscape - mountains lakes etc, but nothing tops the american west imho.
@Kent, I totally agree about the light, it is so important to have good light. In good light an ordinary scene transforms into something magic. I have a similar story: Got my 5D in late December, I already have pressed the shutter more than 2500 times, but maybe 5 images really stand out.
Dietrich
I like the view you have on your photography, Guy. I guess that's what most do. Make photographs of subjects that inspires and impresses you most. I do the same - it's nature or a bit more general - still scenery. And if I had the chance to photograph the american west - i would rather do that instead of doing this in my backyard (as I do now) I am not (yet) in the situation to go to other places that I find inspiring and worth photographing, so I have to stick to whats offered close to my home. However here in Austria we have some awesome landscape - mountains lakes etc, but nothing tops the american west imho.
@Kent, I totally agree about the light, it is so important to have good light. In good light an ordinary scene transforms into something magic. I have a similar story: Got my 5D in late December, I already have pressed the shutter more than 2500 times, but maybe 5 images really stand out.
Dietrich
Dietrich, I think outstanding vistas inspires creativity. Imagine an outstanding vista before you. Your lens can only take in a portion of what your eyes can. What part of the scene would you include? Leave out? What elements would you select to gain depth and perspective? How would this look in the early morning? Or late in the evening? How would the weather affect this scene? Clouds can add terrific drama to an already stunning scene. How should I treat the foreground? The questions are endless and they all have to do with creativity. Photographers return again and again to the same beautiful places, not to repeat the same shots they have done before but to find new versions of it.
Thanks for the thought provoking thread.
And, by the way, I have always thought that Austria is one of the most picturesque and beautiful countries in the world.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Dietrich, I'll echo what Guy wrote. It may be true one can make a fine landscape image with exceptional light and weather given a modest landscape. However if one has exceptional light and weather with a great landscape, the potential is simply greater. There is a vast range of "fine" quality that given subjective evaluation by many would provide differing ranges of perceived fine value. At the top most exceptional images simply have great elements with which to work from. Although there are some that seem to resist or even resent that being the situation maybe even in a small way out of jealousy or lack of fairness, it is just simple common sense. David
But David, we are discussing art, an inherently subjective subject. Honestly, I don't get all excited when I see all the Half Dome clone shots out there. I mean sure, they're nice, but I'm not exactly running out the door to go make my own. A lot also comes down to personal inspiration, something Guy was getting at. For example, many people think Florida is the ultimate distination for photography. In the current Outdoor Photographer magazine there's even an article on a Clyde Butcher type photographer down there. I've been to Florida three times in the past ten years, and honestly, the place bores me silly about 80% of the time. No snow, no waterfalls, no frozen lakes, no big critters. (The alligators are kind of cool so that makes up some of that 20%
Kent in SD
I was more inspired to create photographs this afternoon on a cloudy, frigid day on a wooded ridgetop than I have ever been at any grand landscape...but I guess that this can be different for different people.
Think of some writers that can make a tree feel as grand as any canyon. As photographers I feel that we have the ability to do the same.
Actually this is a great illustration of the distinction I was trying to make - I could have made them in my back yard (I do have aspens and maples there) but I didn't. Even my intimate close-ups are from high mountains, deserts, canyons, and other wild places. It's because that's where I feel most inspired.
Guy
True, Austria is beautifil, we also have beautiflul cities. But it is not "exotic", and it is is also not so diverse. No deserts, no sea, no canyons. We have much, but much of the same. And maybe I am just a bit tired of it...
I going to comment again, no time at the moment...
Regards
Dietrich
I have been to Austria and there are some absolutely great places to shoot. I guess it all depends on your situation. I have had to live in Ohio for a few years because of business. Don't get me wrong , its not as bad as you may think. Ohio is very far from the great National Parks , deserts, vistas of the western US however, I made the best of it and enjoyed my time here immensely. However, now my wife & I are in the position to be able to relocate. We are moving to the pacific Northwest region of the US where photo ops are plentiful. Maybe someday you can get to a place you can enjoy photographically. In the mean time, don't give up on Austria. Besides how many images of Half Dome and the 3 mittens in Monument Valley do we really need?
JG
Having the grand vista in front of you does not guarantee that you will have the vision to make that jaw-dropping image! I have seen many images of beautiful places that were mediocre images, and many awesome images of more simple subjects. I think it's all about how you perceive your surroundings...that "vision" I guess.
David was probably closest to what I felt, or what motivated me to bring up this topic. My opinion is that if the scenery is already "very" beautiful, with the same skill, effort and luck, one simply can create a more striking image than with mediocre subject matter. It's also all about inspiration and excitement about subject matter - here I am with Guy.
Take the famous Barn at the Tetons as an example - photographed countless times, however it simply looks good. Everyone - even my mother (sorry mum) could take a cool image of that location. Given some nice equipment, inspiration, light and talent - and you have an awesome image (still with the constraint that it might bore viewers because it has been overdone). With subject matter that is not that impressive in the first place, i think it takes more effort of the photographer to create something appealing, however the question remains if this would have the same impact on the viewer.
But the famous Galen Rowell once stated that photography does not become easy just because there's an awesome landscape - I guess he knew what he was talking about.
I think it is obvious why professional landscape photographers focus on the national parks - I would do the same. First, again because the are simply drawn to it,inspired by it. Second because they know they can sell the images easier than the (also great) image of the petrol station in their hometown.
After all - we all like our images to be appreciated by others, and common taste is very hmm, lets say ,mediocre. If one has a great image of the tetons in his portfolio, I guess this will sell better than a display of a no-name mountain - because people see more meaning in subject-matter they know - they can relate to it. They have been there themselves, seen it in reality. Then they see an awesome rendering of that scene, probably better looking than what they have seen at the location. Sure this has some major impact. And I think that this can also be a very strong motivator for a photographer.
I mean, images I show to my friends from my one and only trip to the states just yield more ah's and oh's than images from my backyard. They see the mittens, and say, "wow thats pretty cool". Then I show them some trees, and they go, "hmm well, trees..."
Again I want to stress than Austria/Europe has a lot to offer. Same applies to Italy - anyone that has been to Tuscany knows what I am talking about, it is a gorgeous landscape there. I am sure I can get some awesome landscape shots from Europe.
"My" park the "National Park Donau-Auen" (Danube-Floodlands), is also beautiful - but the wide-angle potential is limited. So I already started to focus more on the intimate details. I also try to get better at trees - since there are a lot of them
The solution is then to get closer - macro works everywhere, but again inspiration remains an important keyword.
However I am not so much into macro, and I also think that a - lets say mountainn scene - is better suited for hanging on a wall than that close up of some scary insect eyes - but maybe thats just me.
I hope I was able to somewhat include all ideas and input I got so far in this answer - it's a bit of work to do this in a foreign language.
It also helps a lot to get all your views on this issue. It helps seeing things a bit different and to better appreciate the photographic potential in my area
Lastly I want to appologize for typos, gramatical errors and obscure sentences - I do my best to get the message through
Regards and thanks to all,
Dietrich from small Austria
Well, not so fast. You've only seen the good photos. I've been to that location three times in the past ten years (Wyoming is the state to my west) and each time the light was just not good. I didn't even bother getting my camera out. I can make a significantly better somewhere else where the light is stunning than I can at the barn location when the light is not good. It still comes back to having great light.
You have nothing to worry about--you write very well. I see examples of 18 year olds here that can't write this well.
Kent in SD
Yes, maybe I was a bit too fast with my example. However I think the subject-matter (the barn with tetons in the back) is forgiving. Maybe it's also because you waited for "very" special light (that's our mission ) that just would'nt happen. But if you would have taken that photograph - non-trained eyes just would have seen a cool image - not something that you intented to make, but still interesting for the viewer. It's just my guess.
One thing I also wanted to add to my previous posting is the importance of knowing an area well. I think the best of my images stem from my photosessions in that park close to my home. It's because I know so many spots, I can go and re-shoot, in better light. I know exactly which area looks best at a certain time in the year/ hour of the day. Thats a luxury I don't have in other places since I am there just for a few hours - maybe a week.
And some opportunities just reveal themselves because one is at the right spot at the right time. I am there often, so I am probably at the right spot very often, and due to statistics I also happen to be there at the right time (from time to time)
And - this is a bit esoteric - I have a friendship with that area, I am so close to it emotionally so that i probably approach it with a different mindset than what I am able to do in new areas.
Ok, all for now,
Regards, Dietrich
By the way I'm very likely older than your "Mum" and could get a darn good image of the barn you mentioned (if I ever get there).
The reality is that you live where you do, and it's far more practical and economical to make photographs of the places that you know and love the most. It's surely less practical to make trips to the U.S. or elsewhere, and the photographs you return with will likely lack the depth and understanding than will your photos from 'home'.
The world's greatest scenery will not make you a better photographer nor give you great images. Getting out there and making lots of photographs - regardless of the place - will make you better able to respond to what is before you. Try not to get too hung up on amazing light and jaw-dropping scenery. Great photographs can be made anywhere under any light.
While the places I photograph are less likely to "wow" those who equate drama with a successful image, I am happy to know that my photographs have value to those that live in this region. It's a gift to be able to capture a feeling that others have for a place but can't readily express. It seems as though my entire lifetime won't be enough time to capture what I want to show of this place. I guess what I'm trying to say, is to make sure that your photography is in fact "your's". It's easy to be seduced by the praise of others, and to simply try and copy the formula of images that receive this praise. While I can only speak for myself, I find it much more rewarding to find my own path and to see where it takes me. Best of luck.
Yes, I have to admit that I am a bit of that "If only I could ..."-person. And I know that phrase
It applies to me, but I guess we all have it in us from time to time. Psychologist state that we rank things higher that we dont have, or that we once had respectively.
Sure I have to focus on the opportunities that are around me, I neither have time nor the money to travel far - except for some vaccations - and I will come to the US again, no doubt about that
But maybe I am not so different from the people that have the US.Nationalparks as their main-subjects: I just think that this scenery looks awesome and it itches and urges me to photograph it.
But I have to agree with you Michael,Patricia&Joel: My best images come from places close to my home. I also have some good shots from vaccations, but the majority of my "good" work is from Austria. But if I only had the chance to spend the same time.... OK I stop it sorry
Thanks for all the good feedback I got. It helps to shape the own vision and opinion.
Regards Dietrich
The best to you,
Bob
But I also think that training&practice, the development of a deeper understanding about use of light and composition, and the so often mentioned "own vision" can be applied with success everywhere. A person who dedicates much of his time thinking how to improve his photography, and actually practices photography by shooting as often as possible will eventually get better. He will avoid "tourist cliches" anyway (if he wants to) and does his "own" thing in every place - given enough time of course.
Thanks and Regards,
Dietrich
One thing I did to overcome my biased perception was to find a nice location to photograph near my home where I could make images over the course of a year. I dedicated myself to returning to a local country farm pond in morning and evening light, during all seasons and in all kinds of weather. In other words I tried to connect to the place, to become part of how it (the landscape) "felt" and responded to changing weather and light.
My goal was to learn how light can transform even the most modest of scenes into something astetically moving. I emerged from that experience with a much greater appreciation of what light can do to transform a marginal landscape scene. I also learned that you don't have to travel the world to find great light and beauty.
I think what you're looking for is within your reach. Make a plan, seek out a place near to you that you can return to over and over and become part of it. Then it will reveal itself to you through your images! Great thread ... Good luck!
I want to thank all that read and participated.
Regards to all,
Dietrich
You get no sympathy from a Houston resident.
When I first arrived in Houston from Denver eight years ago, I was convinced that Ihad arrived in photographic HELL. It took a couple of years to appreciate that there were GREAT photo opportunities within a short driving distance. Of course, I had to stop looking for those grand scenc vistas with craggy peaks or red rock canyons. It turns out the Texas Gulf Coast offers world class opportunities for bird photography. I had NEVER even attempted to take a picture of a bird before. The thought had never crossed my mind. So it took a while before I bought a longer telephoto lens and then quickly upgraded that to a 500mm. Now, in some ways, I will miss Texas and the birds when I finally return to live in Denver full time.
So, as you and others have said, I feel it is most important to find a location that can be visted often at your leisure and in different seasons and lighting. That is where I find my most satisfying pictures. I was pretty miserable until I accepted what Houston had to offer.
By the way, I was born in Austria (Burgenland) so if you are traveling through Denver, please give us a shout and we'll see if we can find you a few inspirational vistas.
And if you would like to see some spectacular views from near by, contact me. We are having photo tour in June that will be held in Julian Alps - a really spectacular place.
Marko
Second, although the landscape in Austria/europe is gorgeous - there is simply no grand canyon, monument valley, rocky mountains - but that's what I should change in my mind.
I have done a trip to some national parks in the states back in 2005. I was so overwhelmed by the scenic, I was so incredible excited when I was photographing there, that I thought:, how can I get the same amount of "photographic pleasure" in Austria without having these gorgeous parks?.
Like you ,Bill, said I thought I am in photographic hell. The first two months i did not shoot at all. I just lacked ideas, inspiration. Then I slowly started to accept that I must take what's offered in my backyard and it turned out to be quite cool.
By the way, Bill, since you stem from Burgenland - the flattest of all counties in austria.. this is what I consider a photographic hell...:-) (If you are into mountains,
On our 2005 trip we actually started in Denver - there we picked up the car - then drove to estes park - rocky mountains national park - i was in heaven. I understand your dissappointment as you moved to Houston (Dont know that place, but sure this is not Colorado). I come back to the states one day, there is zero doubt about that. And Colorado is on my list, so we might eventually meet!
Marko, Slovenia has a beautiful landscape - so true. I cross slovenia regularly by car when i drive down to croatia/istria for summer holidays. Maybe I should get out of that car before I reach croatia and start photographing there...
And thank you for pointing out that phototour! I am considering it!
Wow feels great to get so much understanding. This helps me a lot.
Thank you very much guys!
Dietrich
Uf, if you travel regularly to Croatia, then you have at least a yearly holiday to keep your landscape photography going. If you have a part in this "where-to-go decision making", try to pick places on Croatian coast that have appeal to you. And if you'll search for it, I can assure you, that there are plenty.
And BDW I'm also amateur (such a word: doing something for love/pleasure) and I regularly drive 100 km in one direction for photography. And from Vienna to Karavanken isn't much more.
There is another NPN member living next door to you: http://popphackner.brainsware.org/index.php
Marko
Thanks for looking at my webpage - yes a bit un-ordered, one could not call it a portfolio. Just some fav. shots. I shall focus on cityscapes more - since i live in Austria's biggest city..
I go to croatia on a regular basis - my girlfriend is from croatia - her family has an appartement close to pula
I really should get out and explore the little more remote places around vienna/austria. The opportunities are infinite...
By the way I know Verena and georgs photography, the make awesome stuff. I meet them on a exibition. Talked quite a bit with verena. They live in vienna but they are full time into the photography business. The have a lot of work from Ausria, but they as well travel around the world to create images they cannot make in austria...
Regards, Dietrich
Here's a link for inspiration. These stunning images by Anna Pagnacco were shot in the Italian Alps right across the border, not far from your locale.
http://www.pbase.com/annapagnacco/a_world_in_black_and_white
Harald Rust