Posted by Bishop Bastien on February 20, 2007 at 11:39 PM
Hi All --
I am hoping to get a bit of large format advice from you experts here in the CA forum. I know that several of you are 4x5 users and since I don't directly know anyone using a 4x5 I thought I would come to the source.
I have been shooting digitally for a couple of years but have always been drawn to the more methodical steps of large format photography...along with the incredible detail!
This said, I having been looking a bit and will likely need to go a bit slow at first with something like a Shen Hao and a single lens...150mm Fujinon or Rodenstock. I was hoping to get a few thoughts on this set-up and any additional guidance you seasoned users might have...along with any direction for guidance. I am in the Sacramento area if this helps...and I do not currently have the room to set-up a darkroom. So, will need to send film out for deeloping and scanning for further developing via the digital darkroom.
Thanks in advance for your comments!
Posted by Lon Overacker on February 21, 2007 at 1:50 AM
Hello Bishop,
Books have been written on this subject...
But I'll take bets you've been doing quite a bit of research on your own, as you should. For starters, if you don't have the following websites, check them out: Largeformatphotography.info photo.net (forums>Large format)
Lot's of good references and basic info on LF.
But I'll be happy to start out with a few tidbits of my own. First though, I must start with a couple of questions, ok one question: what's your budget?
I think you should be able to get an entire 2 lens setup, camera, lens holders, dark cloth, etc. for less that $2K OR less than what you might spend on an 10MP+ DSLR camera (oops, lenses not included.)
I haven't used or even seen a Shen Hao, but this and the Tachihara are very nice cameras - and not necessarily entry level or beginner cameras either. I believe the Shen Hao has slightly longer bellows extension that could accomodate a 300mm lens. I think you could get these used for less than $500, or new for not much more. I wouldn't recommend getting anything cheap or poorly made; you'll get easily frustrated with camera operation during the learning phase.
Lenses: Personally, I would start with at least 2. The first thing you need to determine is what focal lengths do you find yourself shooting now? Wide angles? longer focal lengths?
Actually, I took a look at your website - and you have outstanding images and wonderful work. You've only been photographing for a year???? Lord help us if you get in to LF!
So, from your selection of work, I'm guessing a good starter lens would be a 210mm. I shot with only 2 lenses for many years; a Nikkor 90mm/4.5 and Nikkor 210/5.6 and the combination served me very well. A normal 150mm lens might be a good choice if that's all you can afford to start out with, but it wouldn't be too long before you would want to go wide and long.
As far as brand selection.... I'm not a resolution/line, edge-sharpness,resolving power kind of guy, so I won't speak to any technical superiority issues from one brand to the next. IMHO, you're initial concerns might be: 1. covering power (needs to cover 4x5 with plenty of room for movements, 2. if possible, match filter sizes, 3. shutter size/weight (copal 0, small, lightweight, copal 1, middle sized, copal 2 -large and bulky) 4. Stick with major brands like you mentioned, plus Schneider, Nikon etc. Most modern lenses from the past 20-30 years should all be multicoated.
One last thing about lens selection and that's max aperture. In general, you'll pay more for the faster lenses (f/4.5 for example). Pretty standard to see f/5.6 and the larger shutters you might find f/8 or f/9. I bring this up because many want as much light for focusing as possible and there certainly would be a difference between how much light hits the glass between f/4.5 and f/9. But in my experience, shooting in low light situations can be a b*tch to focus in regardless if you have a lens that is 1.5 stops faster. Shooting the rest of the time in normal light, I've found f/9 to be just fine.
A few other things. You'll need to decide whether you want to use quickloads or film holders. Personally, I've never used quickloads but I know many photogs who wouldn't use anything else. Per sheet, they are more expensive. I've got a workable system I've used for a long time that includes 13 film holders, changing tent and a flexible insulated cooler used to carry all the film I need. It's a very rare occasion that I would shoot more than 26 shots in a single day, so I'm fine with unloading and loading film at the end of the day when I'm relaxing with a beer. :-) You'll need a dark cloth and lupe for focusing.
Lastly, as part of your budget planning, get a flatbed scanner. Drums scans are superior and cost accordingly. Personally, I only use a drum scan if I've sold or presenting a 16x20 or larger print. Otherwise, for small prints and web presentation, flatbeds work great. There's plenty of threads on scanner recommendations on this and other forums.
Well, I'm sure there's plenty of other things that need to be touched on, but this will give you some food for thought and perhaps bring in some other opinions.
The Shenhao is an excellent camera. I would have no qualms about owning one. I use a Tachihara, personally. The Rodenstock 150mm Sironar-S is a great lens, and is wickedly sharp. The Caltar 150-S is either a rebranded Rody or a Schneider: They are excellent. I would buy it over the the Fujinon.
Do you plan to shoot color, or black and White? If color, then you needn't set up a darkroom. It is less expensive and time consuming to send out color film than it is to process it yourself. Additionally, the E-6 chemicals are not easy to dispose of: pouring them down the drain is not an option.
If you plan to shoot B&W and develop them yourself, a Jobo drum is a good bet. Hopefully Michael Gordon will see this topic and give you some advice in this area.
For color negs or transparancies, I suggest Quickloads (Fujifilm) or Readyloaads (Kodak). You will need a Quickload holder--the Fuji holder will work for Readyloads, as well.
If you are planning to shoot B&W, I suggest Fidelity Elite cut film holders. You'll have to buy a changing bag or tent (or have access to a darkroom) to load the film in the holders.
You will also need a darkcloth or hood to be able to view the groundglass without glare. There are some nice ones out there. The BTZS hood is excellent. I have a Toyo darkcloth that is white on one side and black on the other. It works well for me. No matter which you choose, it will be very warm under it if the sun is shining directly on you.
I also suggest that you obtain a one-degree spotmeter. The Pentax Digital is excellent, as is the Sekonic L-308. I like the Pentax because it is simple and easy to use.
I assume you already have a tripod. Be sure to check the specs to see if it will adequately hold the load of the camera/lens combo. Because of the bellows and general bulk of a view camera, they are prone to vibrate in the wind. Therefore, your tripod must be rock-solid, and care must be taken during windy condtions.
You will also need a magifying loupe to check the image focus on the ground glass. There are several different different makes and magnificaton factors available. I have found that a 3.5x or a 4x works very well. A loupe with an adjustable focus is nice, but these will be more costly. I use a Toyo 3.5x loupe.
You will also need to buy filters that fit your lens, or use adapters. When I use filters for color work, my primary ones are an 81-a, 81-b, polarizer, and a set of ND grads and their Cokin-P holder.
Other handy items: A neutral grey card. A watch with a second hand (or a digital that displays seconds), a lens cloth (comes in handy when you sneeze and blow crud all over the groundglass. :-) ), a plastic trash bag to cover the camera if you get caught in the rain, or if stuff is blowing around. A pencil and a stack of small sticky notes ( I use these to mark the grad line on an ND grad filter. I also use them to leave notes for my friends who are late and I already hit the trail. :-) )
You'll also need a good pack with a hip suspension in which to carry your stuff.
You might want to hop over to the Large Format Photography site for much more info...
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ and also visit their forums...
Hopefully Lon, Dan, Youssef, and Michael will chime in, too.
You'll enjoy large format! It is a world unto itself; not only from a technical standpoint but also from an aesthetic and creative perspective. We're here to help, so don't be afraid to ask!
-PB
Posted by Bishop Bastien on February 21, 2007 at 9:30 PM
Lon/Preston --
Thanks for your comments...much appreciated! I was actually hoping that the two of you would respond. A couple of follow-up questions for each of you...
Lon -- Thanks for checking out my website...again your comments are appreciated! I have been at it for two years and know that I have alot to learn.
Was wondering what you thought was possible for about $2k?? I did some pricing via Badger Graphics and was over $3k...which still didn't include a scanner. I do like the thought of a 90mm and a 210mm...seems these two would cover most of what I find myself doing now. Does one need a dedicated macro lens for such work? May just stick to digital for this for the time being as I am doing less of this than a year ago. Also, need some education on quickloads...how do they work? Take a shot and then send the whole thing in for processing??
Preston -- Thanks to you as well! Appreciate all the details and little things you outlined as well. Can you comment on the quickloads as well?
Again, thanks to both of you...much appreciated as I said! Hopefully, I can pull the trigger relatively soon and will run into the two of you at some point. If so, I owe you a cold one...
Keep an eye out for good used stuff. Midwest Photo Exchange ( http://www.mpex.com/ ) and KEH ( http://www.keh.com/hmpg/index.cfm ) have excellent used gear at good prices. Their service is excellent and they stand by their gear.
I would suggest starting out with either a 150, 180 or 210mm lens. These have fairly normal perspective and are great lenses to learn with. Once you get really comfortable with the format and camera movements, then consider another lens.
You do not need a dedicated macro lens. A 210 or 180 will get you pretty close to life size, depending upon available bellows extension. For example, to attain 1:1 with a 210, you would need at least 420mm extension. With my Tachihara, if I want 1:1, I have to use my 135 Fujinon because my bellows extends to only abut 310mm. You can do some really nice closeup work without having to spend a small fortune on a LF Macro.
Quickloads: The QL envelope has a built-in dark slide that you pull up. After the exposure you push it back in and then release the QL from the holder. You send the whloe envelope in for processing. Most pro labs will do quickloads. I really like them. As Lon said, they are more expensive than cut film, but the convenience won the day for me.
I looked at your site last night. You have some very nice work there. From what I saw with respect to your subject matter, large format will suit you.
-PB
Posted by Lon Overacker on February 21, 2007 at 11:50 PM
Bishop,
A couple other camera/lens resources(I'm too lazy to put in the link... you can cut-n-paste :-):
http:///bhphotovideo.com/
http://www.badgergraphic.com/
Brand new Shen Hao for $595.
http://www.igorcamera.com/large_format.htm
Here there's a Shen Hao for $490, Nikon, Rodenstock lenses,Fujinon, 135, 150, 180 and 210's - all for $500 or less. So, just from this one site you could get a camera/2-lens setup for $1,500. Ok, there's tax and shipping.... but you would have left-overs for accessories.
And there's several 4x5 field cameras on eBay right now - A Wisner Tech Field, Wista, Shen Hao and another no-name complete outfit with holders, lens boards, lens and a Poloroid readyload holder - less than $500!
Ok, I don't want to rush you, but just wanted to show you it could be done. And it's slightly more complicated than I'm leading to believe.... lenses need lens boards, the boards must be the right size for your camera AND for the lens, etc. Another thing to have handy is info about the lenses before you buy. One of those important things is image circle. Here is a great resource to check this. Of course not every lens is listed, but has good info:
Perhaps if we hook up this weekend, you could get a taste of LF photography before forking out any dough.....
Feel free to ask more questions.
Lon
Posted by Bishop Bastien on February 23, 2007 at 9:51 PM
Thanks again, Preston and Lon! I put a call into Jim at Midwest but he seems to be a popular guy as he was busy each time I called...will catch-up soon I am sure. In the meantime, I am serching all the sites you two suggested and reading as much as I can. Boy, Ebony sure makes a beautiful camera, huh?
A question for you and others that might chime in...seems I read on one sight that the person suggested not to try to shoot both large format and otherwise (say digitally in my case) as this increases the learning curve. Point being that while some shots may be lost while learning, it is best to progress through the learning curve than to try and balance two different formats. What do you guys think of this?
When I was learning how to use a view camera ,I concentrated on it pretty heavily. This included not only learning to use the camera, but also the zone system, developing my own B&W film, and making prints in a traditional darkroom. I basically had to develop a whole new way of looking at photography: it was a system for producing fine prints.
There were times, however, where I would get frustrated, and I found the best way to deal with it was to go back to what I knew for a while: 35mm. This 'gurgle' time allowed me to let go of what was bothering me and look at the process in a new light, so to speak.
So, In my own case, the learning curve was not any steeper; it just took a little longer. In fact, I think taking a break sometimes, makes the outcome much more positive.
You'll just have to see what works best for you as a student of LF photography, Bishop.
Kind regards,
-PB
Posted by Bishop Bastien on February 26, 2007 at 8:39 PM
Lon/Preston --
Just wanted to say thanks again...spent some time this afternoon speaking to Jim at Midwest Photo to iron out a few hitches. Leaning towards the Tachihara at this point...primarily due to size and weight considerations and the fact that I don't believe at this point I would use all the movements in a Shen Hao. Have to iron out lens choices but will at least go with a Nikkor-W f/5.6 210mm...would like to pick-up a 90mm but will see??
Question for you both...do you both use one cable release or one for each lens? This was suggested in Jack Dykinga's book...seems to make sense. Assume the key is to get the right lenght and one that locks open, right?
Also, film processing?? If I shoot quickloads/readyloads, where to send? I saw the information on your sight Preston. Are you guys scanning them yourself or ??
Thanks again!
Posted by Lon Overacker on February 26, 2007 at 11:07 PM
Bishop,
I think you would be quite happy with the Tachihara. I love my 210 (same one as you listed) - it's been my workhorse lens. Not to complicate matters, but I picked up a Fujinon 135 from B&H for $200. Not real wide, somewhere between normal and wide. I think I've used it more than my 75mm.
Cable releases - I always try and have extras! they're cheap. I keep the cable attached to the lenses, although care should be taken on how you stow your gear. I'm careful and worry that keeping the release attached, it will get caught on something and perhaps damage the lense. With one exception, I don't keep the release attached to the big bulky 450mm lens because it sticks out and I don't want it getting caught on something. Length of the release isn't important to me. I have them from short 6" ones to 20." Doesn't make much difference to me.
I can't speak with authority where you can get readyloads processed, but I'll make the big assumption that most pro labs who process LF film, will also do readyloads. Start out with a reputable place like PhotoCraft - I know A&I in Los Angeles has a good rep and I believe Preston goes there. There's also Calypso in Santa Cruz.
Scanning.... I've had success scanning on a flatbed for a 16x20 print. Obviously, you'll need some PhotoShop skills to prep the file good enough for larger prints. Pro drum scanning is NOT cheap, so I reserve that for client purchases and/or special needs like a much larger print. Otherwise, flatbeds are fine for small prints and of course, the web.
I have a Tachihara. I really like it! It is light, well built, and adequately rigid. Althugh it does not have front or rear shift, that is easy to compensate for. I don't have 210mm for my Tacihara. I do have a Schneider 210/f-4.5 Zenar that I use on my Omega 45E monorail. It is too big (with its Copal 3 shutter) for my Tachi, but I do love the perspective and coverage power.
I aso have a 90mm Nikkor. It does work on my Tachi but movements are limited because of the compression of the bellows. It very sharp and contrasty. That said, it is tricky to use. Its DOF is very great, as one would expect from a wide angle lens, and so is somewhat difficult to focus; especially in dim light. I would suggest either a 120 or a 135. I also have the Fujinon 135/5.6. It is a great lens: small and light, very sharp and with good contrast. I use it a lot.
Cable Releases: I keep one on each of my lenses. Not only am I assured of always having a spare, I don't have to fiddle around on a dark and cold predawn trying to find and install the release. Mine are all 6" long. Make sure that any release you buy is really flexible. A stiff release might jar the lens standard during exposure. As Lon said, you have to careful how you store the lenses when the releases are attached.
Processing: Lon is correct; I do use A&I in LA and have for at least six years. They use dip and dunk processing and will do pushes and pulls for a bit extra. Their work has always been consistent, my chromes are clean, and their service is great! Highly recommended. I have also heard good things about Calypso. I might try them out since they are closer to me than LA.
Scanning: For prints up to 12x15 I use my Microtek 1800f, since I can print that size myself. I have no doubt I could get a scan that would make a very nice 20x24 from my scanner. "Pro drum scanning is NOT cheap, so I reserve that for client purchases and/or special needs like a much larger print." I do the same. I send my large print orders to West Coast Imaging. I have also heard good things about the New Lab in SF and Calypso. Regardless of whether you scan chromes yourself, or have drum scans made, you'll have to 'work up' your images in PhotoShop to realize their potential, and your vision.
_PB
Posted by Bishop Bastien on February 27, 2007 at 12:46 AM
Ok guys...you have stumped me...I know that the lens length needs to be divided by 3 to get a 35mm equivalent, right? So, if this is the case, I thought a 90mm would fit the bill as I believed a 72/75mm would be TOO wide for a Tachihara. If I go with a 105mm to a 135mm, that means an equivalent of 35mm to 45mm...compared to 70mm of a 210mm...uugghh! I am probably getting TOO hung-up on focal length but was hoping to approximate what I believed was where I end up most of the time -- around 30mm on my wider images. Thoughts??
Or, am I forgeting the most important aspect of zoom lenses...my feet! Thanks again for all the feedback!
Posted by Lon Overacker on February 27, 2007 at 1:04 AM
Bishop,
Hey, I know where you're coming from. I guess I didn't spell out my reasoning for the 135... my comment was pretty much based on price and as a starter lens. I too found the 90mm to be a good choice for my wide angle preferences, and the 75mm about equiv to a 24mm in 35-land. I'd expect to pay perhaps 3 times as much for a good 75mm f/4.5 than what you could find in the 105-135mm range. Preston and I seem to be in sync with most all of this (actually we're collaborating on advice here....) and actually I found the 90mm to work well on my Wista. The 75mm on my Zone VI is barely, barely managable (standard bellows btw.)
If you really think you'll like the wider view and can afford it, get a 90. this past year I've found that I'm shooting my 210 and 300 at least 80% of the time - which I'm sure is reflecting my shooting style. Next is the 135 - it's decently wide and easy to use and lastly I use my 75 and 450 maybe 5-10% of the time.
The 90mm is equivalent to about 28mm in 35mm land. That said, a chrome shot with the 90mm looks like it was shot with a wider lens. This is due to large size of the chrome.
For use on the Tachihara a 75 is usable but you will have very little to none interms of movements: the lens board is just too close to the back and the bellows is scrunched up very tightly. The 90 ins much better in this regard, but movements will still be limited, as I mentioned above.
The 90/f-8 Nikkor is a very fine lens, and will stand you in good stead as wide angle for your kit. It takes 67mm filters.
In terms of percentage of use of the lenses in my kit: I use my 300 about 40%, my 180 about 25%, my 135 about 25% and my 90 about 10%. As you can see, my usage pattern is similar to Lon's. This is purely coincidental, but I think if you look at our respective work, we tend to shoot subject matter having similarities in terms of perspective.
As Lon said, get what suits your needs. I'll add, though; make darn sure it will work on your camera and does not drive you to distraction or frustrate you. If it doesn't work at home in front of the fireplace, it will certainly make you crazy in the fleeting light of a mountain dawn!
-PB
Posted by Bishop Bastien on February 27, 2007 at 1:53 AM
Thanks again! I was concerned about the lack of movement on the 90mm...both of your comments help. I did take the time to look at both of your images and some of Youseff's and noticed alot in the 210 to 135 range. I feeling a bit of paralysis from all of this analysis...need to just make a move at this point. Appreciate all the advice...will let you know what I do! Thanks again!
Discussion
14 repliesI am hoping to get a bit of large format advice from you experts here in the CA forum. I know that several of you are 4x5 users and since I don't directly know anyone using a 4x5 I thought I would come to the source.
I have been shooting digitally for a couple of years but have always been drawn to the more methodical steps of large format photography...along with the incredible detail!
This said, I having been looking a bit and will likely need to go a bit slow at first with something like a Shen Hao and a single lens...150mm Fujinon or Rodenstock. I was hoping to get a few thoughts on this set-up and any additional guidance you seasoned users might have...along with any direction for guidance. I am in the Sacramento area if this helps...and I do not currently have the room to set-up a darkroom. So, will need to send film out for deeloping and scanning for further developing via the digital darkroom.
Thanks in advance for your comments!
Books have been written on this subject...
But I'll take bets you've been doing quite a bit of research on your own, as you should. For starters, if you don't have the following websites, check them out:
Largeformatphotography.info
photo.net (forums>Large format)
Lot's of good references and basic info on LF.
But I'll be happy to start out with a few tidbits of my own. First though, I must start with a couple of questions, ok one question: what's your budget?
I think you should be able to get an entire 2 lens setup, camera, lens holders, dark cloth, etc. for less that $2K OR less than what you might spend on an 10MP+ DSLR camera (oops, lenses not included.)
I haven't used or even seen a Shen Hao, but this and the Tachihara are very nice cameras - and not necessarily entry level or beginner cameras either. I believe the Shen Hao has slightly longer bellows extension that could accomodate a 300mm lens. I think you could get these used for less than $500, or new for not much more. I wouldn't recommend getting anything cheap or poorly made; you'll get easily frustrated with camera operation during the learning phase.
Lenses: Personally, I would start with at least 2. The first thing you need to determine is what focal lengths do you find yourself shooting now? Wide angles? longer focal lengths?
Actually, I took a look at your website - and you have outstanding images and wonderful work. You've only been photographing for a year???? Lord help us if you get in to LF!
So, from your selection of work, I'm guessing a good starter lens would be a 210mm. I shot with only 2 lenses for many years; a Nikkor 90mm/4.5 and Nikkor 210/5.6 and the combination served me very well. A normal 150mm lens might be a good choice if that's all you can afford to start out with, but it wouldn't be too long before you would want to go wide and long.
As far as brand selection.... I'm not a resolution/line, edge-sharpness,resolving power kind of guy, so I won't speak to any technical superiority issues from one brand to the next. IMHO, you're initial concerns might be: 1. covering power (needs to cover 4x5 with plenty of room for movements, 2. if possible, match filter sizes, 3. shutter size/weight (copal 0, small, lightweight, copal 1, middle sized, copal 2 -large and bulky) 4. Stick with major brands like you mentioned, plus Schneider, Nikon etc. Most modern lenses from the past 20-30 years should all be multicoated.
One last thing about lens selection and that's max aperture. In general, you'll pay more for the faster lenses (f/4.5 for example). Pretty standard to see f/5.6 and the larger shutters you might find f/8 or f/9. I bring this up because many want as much light for focusing as possible and there certainly would be a difference between how much light hits the glass between f/4.5 and f/9. But in my experience, shooting in low light situations can be a b*tch to focus in regardless if you have a lens that is 1.5 stops faster. Shooting the rest of the time in normal light, I've found f/9 to be just fine.
A few other things. You'll need to decide whether you want to use quickloads or film holders. Personally, I've never used quickloads but I know many photogs who wouldn't use anything else. Per sheet, they are more expensive. I've got a workable system I've used for a long time that includes 13 film holders, changing tent and a flexible insulated cooler used to carry all the film I need. It's a very rare occasion that I would shoot more than 26 shots in a single day, so I'm fine with unloading and loading film at the end of the day when I'm relaxing with a beer. :-) You'll need a dark cloth and lupe for focusing.
Lastly, as part of your budget planning, get a flatbed scanner. Drums scans are superior and cost accordingly. Personally, I only use a drum scan if I've sold or presenting a 16x20 or larger print. Otherwise, for small prints and web presentation, flatbeds work great. There's plenty of threads on scanner recommendations on this and other forums.
Well, I'm sure there's plenty of other things that need to be touched on, but this will give you some food for thought and perhaps bring in some other opinions.
Good luck!
Lon
The Shenhao is an excellent camera. I would have no qualms about owning one. I use a Tachihara, personally. The Rodenstock 150mm Sironar-S is a great lens, and is wickedly sharp. The Caltar 150-S is either a rebranded Rody or a Schneider: They are excellent. I would buy it over the the Fujinon.
Do you plan to shoot color, or black and White? If color, then you needn't set up a darkroom. It is less expensive and time consuming to send out color film than it is to process it yourself. Additionally, the E-6 chemicals are not easy to dispose of: pouring them down the drain is not an option.
If you plan to shoot B&W and develop them yourself, a Jobo drum is a good bet. Hopefully Michael Gordon will see this topic and give you some advice in this area.
For color negs or transparancies, I suggest Quickloads (Fujifilm) or Readyloaads (Kodak). You will need a Quickload holder--the Fuji holder will work for Readyloads, as well.
If you are planning to shoot B&W, I suggest Fidelity Elite cut film holders. You'll have to buy a changing bag or tent (or have access to a darkroom) to load the film in the holders.
You will also need a darkcloth or hood to be able to view the groundglass without glare. There are some nice ones out there. The BTZS hood is excellent. I have a Toyo darkcloth that is white on one side and black on the other. It works well for me. No matter which you choose, it will be very warm under it if the sun is shining directly on you.
I also suggest that you obtain a one-degree spotmeter. The Pentax Digital is excellent, as is the Sekonic L-308. I like the Pentax because it is simple and easy to use.
I assume you already have a tripod. Be sure to check the specs to see if it will adequately hold the load of the camera/lens combo. Because of the bellows and general bulk of a view camera, they are prone to vibrate in the wind. Therefore, your tripod must be rock-solid, and care must be taken during windy condtions.
You will also need a magifying loupe to check the image focus on the ground glass. There are several different different makes and magnificaton factors available. I have found that a 3.5x or a 4x works very well. A loupe with an adjustable focus is nice, but these will be more costly. I use a Toyo 3.5x loupe.
You will also need to buy filters that fit your lens, or use adapters. When I use filters for color work, my primary ones are an 81-a, 81-b, polarizer, and a set of ND grads and their Cokin-P holder.
Other handy items: A neutral grey card. A watch with a second hand (or a digital that displays seconds), a lens cloth (comes in handy when you sneeze and blow crud all over the groundglass. :-) ), a plastic trash bag to cover the camera if you get caught in the rain, or if stuff is blowing around. A pencil and a stack of small sticky notes ( I use these to mark the grad line on an ND grad filter. I also use them to leave notes for my friends who are late and I already hit the trail. :-) )
You'll also need a good pack with a hip suspension in which to carry your stuff.
You might want to hop over to the Large Format Photography site for much more info...
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/ and also visit their forums...
http://www.largeformatphotography.info/forum/index.php
Hopefully Lon, Dan, Youssef, and Michael will chime in, too.
You'll enjoy large format! It is a world unto itself; not only from a technical standpoint but also from an aesthetic and creative perspective. We're here to help, so don't be afraid to ask!
-PB
Thanks for your comments...much appreciated! I was actually hoping that the two of you would respond. A couple of follow-up questions for each of you...
Lon -- Thanks for checking out my website...again your comments are appreciated! I have been at it for two years and know that I have alot to learn.
Was wondering what you thought was possible for about $2k?? I did some pricing via Badger Graphics and was over $3k...which still didn't include a scanner. I do like the thought of a 90mm and a 210mm...seems these two would cover most of what I find myself doing now. Does one need a dedicated macro lens for such work? May just stick to digital for this for the time being as I am doing less of this than a year ago. Also, need some education on quickloads...how do they work? Take a shot and then send the whole thing in for processing??
Preston -- Thanks to you as well! Appreciate all the details and little things you outlined as well. Can you comment on the quickloads as well?
Again, thanks to both of you...much appreciated as I said! Hopefully, I can pull the trigger relatively soon and will run into the two of you at some point. If so, I owe you a cold one...
Keep an eye out for good used stuff. Midwest Photo Exchange ( http://www.mpex.com/ ) and KEH ( http://www.keh.com/hmpg/index.cfm ) have excellent used gear at good prices. Their service is excellent and they stand by their gear.
I would suggest starting out with either a 150, 180 or 210mm lens. These have fairly normal perspective and are great lenses to learn with. Once you get really comfortable with the format and camera movements, then consider another lens.
You do not need a dedicated macro lens. A 210 or 180 will get you pretty close to life size, depending upon available bellows extension. For example, to attain 1:1 with a 210, you would need at least 420mm extension. With my Tachihara, if I want 1:1, I have to use my 135 Fujinon because my bellows extends to only abut 310mm. You can do some really nice closeup work without having to spend a small fortune on a LF Macro.
Quickloads: The QL envelope has a built-in dark slide that you pull up. After the exposure you push it back in and then release the QL from the holder. You send the whloe envelope in for processing. Most pro labs will do quickloads. I really like them. As Lon said, they are more expensive than cut film, but the convenience won the day for me.
I looked at your site last night. You have some very nice work there. From what I saw with respect to your subject matter, large format will suit you.
-PB
A couple other camera/lens resources(I'm too lazy to put in the link... you can cut-n-paste :-):
http:///bhphotovideo.com/
http://www.badgergraphic.com/
Brand new Shen Hao for $595.
http://www.igorcamera.com/large_format.htm
Here there's a Shen Hao for $490, Nikon, Rodenstock lenses,Fujinon, 135, 150, 180 and 210's - all for $500 or less. So, just from this one site you could get a camera/2-lens setup for $1,500. Ok, there's tax and shipping.... but you would have left-overs for accessories.
And there's several 4x5 field cameras on eBay right now - A Wisner Tech Field, Wista, Shen Hao and another no-name complete outfit with holders, lens boards, lens and a Poloroid readyload holder - less than $500!
Ok, I don't want to rush you, but just wanted to show you it could be done. And it's slightly more complicated than I'm leading to believe.... lenses need lens boards, the boards must be the right size for your camera AND for the lens, etc. Another thing to have handy is info about the lenses before you buy. One of those important things is image circle. Here is a great resource to check this. Of course not every lens is listed, but has good info:
http://www.camerareview.com/templates/compare_specs.cfm?Category=10
Perhaps if we hook up this weekend, you could get a taste of LF photography before forking out any dough.....
Feel free to ask more questions.
Lon
A question for you and others that might chime in...seems I read on one sight that the person suggested not to try to shoot both large format and otherwise (say digitally in my case) as this increases the learning curve. Point being that while some shots may be lost while learning, it is best to progress through the learning curve than to try and balance two different formats. What do you guys think of this?
When I was learning how to use a view camera ,I concentrated on it pretty heavily. This included not only learning to use the camera, but also the zone system, developing my own B&W film, and making prints in a traditional darkroom. I basically had to develop a whole new way of looking at photography: it was a system for producing fine prints.
There were times, however, where I would get frustrated, and I found the best way to deal with it was to go back to what I knew for a while: 35mm. This 'gurgle' time allowed me to let go of what was bothering me and look at the process in a new light, so to speak.
So, In my own case, the learning curve was not any steeper; it just took a little longer. In fact, I think taking a break sometimes, makes the outcome much more positive.
You'll just have to see what works best for you as a student of LF photography, Bishop.
Kind regards,
-PB
Just wanted to say thanks again...spent some time this afternoon speaking to Jim at Midwest Photo to iron out a few hitches. Leaning towards the Tachihara at this point...primarily due to size and weight considerations and the fact that I don't believe at this point I would use all the movements in a Shen Hao. Have to iron out lens choices but will at least go with a Nikkor-W f/5.6 210mm...would like to pick-up a 90mm but will see??
Question for you both...do you both use one cable release or one for each lens? This was suggested in Jack Dykinga's book...seems to make sense. Assume the key is to get the right lenght and one that locks open, right?
Also, film processing?? If I shoot quickloads/readyloads, where to send? I saw the information on your sight Preston. Are you guys scanning them yourself or ??
Thanks again!
I think you would be quite happy with the Tachihara. I love my 210 (same one as you listed) - it's been my workhorse lens. Not to complicate matters, but I picked up a Fujinon 135 from B&H for $200. Not real wide, somewhere between normal and wide. I think I've used it more than my 75mm.
Cable releases - I always try and have extras! they're cheap. I keep the cable attached to the lenses, although care should be taken on how you stow your gear. I'm careful and worry that keeping the release attached, it will get caught on something and perhaps damage the lense. With one exception, I don't keep the release attached to the big bulky 450mm lens because it sticks out and I don't want it getting caught on something. Length of the release isn't important to me. I have them from short 6" ones to 20." Doesn't make much difference to me.
I can't speak with authority where you can get readyloads processed, but I'll make the big assumption that most pro labs who process LF film, will also do readyloads. Start out with a reputable place like PhotoCraft - I know A&I in Los Angeles has a good rep and I believe Preston goes there. There's also Calypso in Santa Cruz.
Scanning.... I've had success scanning on a flatbed for a 16x20 print. Obviously, you'll need some PhotoShop skills to prep the file good enough for larger prints. Pro drum scanning is NOT cheap, so I reserve that for client purchases and/or special needs like a much larger print. Otherwise, flatbeds are fine for small prints and of course, the web.
Let us know when you're ready to go shooting!
Lon
I have a Tachihara. I really like it! It is light, well built, and adequately rigid. Althugh it does not have front or rear shift, that is easy to compensate for. I don't have 210mm for my Tacihara. I do have a Schneider 210/f-4.5 Zenar that I use on my Omega 45E monorail. It is too big (with its Copal 3 shutter) for my Tachi, but I do love the perspective and coverage power.
I aso have a 90mm Nikkor. It does work on my Tachi but movements are limited because of the compression of the bellows. It very sharp and contrasty. That said, it is tricky to use. Its DOF is very great, as one would expect from a wide angle lens, and so is somewhat difficult to focus; especially in dim light. I would suggest either a 120 or a 135. I also have the Fujinon 135/5.6. It is a great lens: small and light, very sharp and with good contrast. I use it a lot.
Cable Releases: I keep one on each of my lenses. Not only am I assured of always having a spare, I don't have to fiddle around on a dark and cold predawn trying to find and install the release. Mine are all 6" long. Make sure that any release you buy is really flexible. A stiff release might jar the lens standard during exposure. As Lon said, you have to careful how you store the lenses when the releases are attached.
Processing: Lon is correct; I do use A&I in LA and have for at least six years. They use dip and dunk processing and will do pushes and pulls for a bit extra. Their work has always been consistent, my chromes are clean, and their service is great! Highly recommended. I have also heard good things about Calypso. I might try them out since they are closer to me than LA.
Scanning: For prints up to 12x15 I use my Microtek 1800f, since I can print that size myself. I have no doubt I could get a scan that would make a very nice 20x24 from my scanner. "Pro drum scanning is NOT cheap, so I reserve that for client purchases and/or special needs like a much larger print." I do the same. I send my large print orders to West Coast Imaging. I have also heard good things about the New Lab in SF and Calypso. Regardless of whether you scan chromes yourself, or have drum scans made, you'll have to 'work up' your images in PhotoShop to realize their potential, and your vision.
_PB
Or, am I forgeting the most important aspect of zoom lenses...my feet!
Hey, I know where you're coming from. I guess I didn't spell out my reasoning for the 135... my comment was pretty much based on price and as a starter lens. I too found the 90mm to be a good choice for my wide angle preferences, and the 75mm about equiv to a 24mm in 35-land. I'd expect to pay perhaps 3 times as much for a good 75mm f/4.5 than what you could find in the 105-135mm range. Preston and I seem to be in sync with most all of this (actually we're collaborating on advice here....) and actually I found the 90mm to work well on my Wista. The 75mm on my Zone VI is barely, barely managable (standard bellows btw.)
If you really think you'll like the wider view and can afford it, get a 90. this past year I've found that I'm shooting my 210 and 300 at least 80% of the time - which I'm sure is reflecting my shooting style. Next is the 135 - it's decently wide and easy to use and lastly I use my 75 and 450 maybe 5-10% of the time.
Get what suits your needs.
Lon
The 90mm is equivalent to about 28mm in 35mm land. That said, a chrome shot with the 90mm looks like it was shot with a wider lens. This is due to large size of the chrome.
For use on the Tachihara a 75 is usable but you will have very little to none interms of movements: the lens board is just too close to the back and the bellows is scrunched up very tightly. The 90 ins much better in this regard, but movements will still be limited, as I mentioned above.
The 90/f-8 Nikkor is a very fine lens, and will stand you in good stead as wide angle for your kit. It takes 67mm filters.
In terms of percentage of use of the lenses in my kit: I use my 300 about 40%, my 180 about 25%, my 135 about 25% and my 90 about 10%. As you can see, my usage pattern is similar to Lon's. This is purely coincidental, but I think if you look at our respective work, we tend to shoot subject matter having similarities in terms of perspective.
As Lon said, get what suits your needs. I'll add, though; make darn sure it will work on your camera and does not drive you to distraction or frustrate you. If it doesn't work at home in front of the fireplace, it will certainly make you crazy in the fleeting light of a mountain dawn!
-PB