Posted by Craig Schultz on February 28, 2007 at 3:59 PM
So, for those of us that couldn't attend the class would anyone be so kind to give their impressions of the product? I would especially like hear about the Digital Asset Management (DAM) capabilities this product has to offer and if you think it is good enough or if a dedicated DAM program is necessary. I have PS and will upgrade to CS3 this spring/summer, so I will essentially have the Develope module of Lightroom already, I will really use Lightroom for DAM and web presentation.
I don't want to pay another $199 to Adobe for this if it won't do what a dedicated DAM program would, so I'd love to hear everyones opinion on what they think this new product will do at the moment in these two areas.
Thanks for the help.
Craig
Posted by Erik Stensland on February 28, 2007 at 4:27 PM
I didn't get to attend the seminar which I am sure was top quality. I did however purchase a very good and affordable ($14) video tutorial series which is offered on Luminous-Landscape.com. This series is being released in segments with the DAM (Library) section already available for download and additional segments released once a week through April. Craig, I think you might find this first section to be very helpful in assessing this software. I am very impressed with its DAM capabilities.
I'll 2nd Erik's recommendation for the LL.com video (buy the package and get the Bangladesh and Matting/Colour Management clips as well). Sorry, I didn't attend the seminar either, but I'm enjoying using Lightroom myself.
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on February 28, 2007 at 8:29 PM
I did attend the class and now own a copy of Lightroom (for $169 with the $30 discount code that Nat has in his class thread).
I was also skeptical about the "need" for Lightroom and am very happy with the CS3 Beta. However, I do now see the improved workflow efficiencies that are possible, and of course the basic concept of Lightroom storing only instructions and never changing the original data is very appealing.
Up until now I have also been happy working without a DAM. My folders are well organized across multiple hard drives and I never have a problem finding any file using the CS Browser. But, I can certainly see the benefits of a DAM. Is Lightroom capable of replacing a dedicated DAM program? I don't know since I have never used one. I doubt it, since this is a version 1.0 release. Also, I have heard comments that Aperture is a better DAM. But it will keep me happy until more features are added in the next release.
Thanks Nat for a great intro.
Now I just need to find some time to play with it.
Posted by Craig Schultz on February 28, 2007 at 9:03 PM
Bill, I have not used a DAM to this point either, but my search is about to begin and LR is an option on the table, but I don't want to pay extra for LR if it won't do what I want. That money would be better spend on a true DAM app as I'll already have ACR4.x in CS3. My collection of images is also organized fairly well, but finding things is getting more difficult. I especially want to be able to keep track of and better organize the images of my children as they grow.
Since I'm a database administrator, I like the idea of tracking and being able to get very quick access to data given specific criteria. For example, something I would like be able to do is see all images of my daugther between the ages of 1 and 2 with my wife or by herself taken in summer while at my brothers cabin in MN. This would be possible with my current filing system, but it would take a little while, but a DAM database app would show me this in about a second.
I would also like LR to:
1) Keep track of changes to file metadata via Bridge/CS3, especially embedded color previews in DNG files
2) Be able to migrate images to different drives and simply tell LR that they are on this new drive and not have to reindex everything again
3) Be able to use a networked drive for image storage and have LR function when that drive is online as well as offline
4) Have auto updating views/categories that show all images meeting specific criteria (i.e. a new image gets added to my collection that was taken in Telluride, I want that image to now show up in my "Telluride Collection" without any effort on my part.
5) Have the capability of nested sub-categories
6) Version Tracking
7) Ability to export entire DB to XML file for external use
8) Determine if all indexed images are where they should be
9) Determine if all files in monitored directories are indexed, etc.
I'm just starting this search, but I don't want to buy into something that won't meet some of these basic things. LR seems like it "might" fit the bill, but I'm thinking it's going to lack in the category section of things, but perhaps not. Just curious what you all found about regarding some of these things from Nat. New books should be out on this shortly, so a stop at the book store is probably in my near future too.
Craig
Posted by Arthur Lund on February 28, 2007 at 11:32 PM
I just watched the latest videos from Luminious-Landscape.
I recommend that you spend $15 and watch the videos for yourself.
My guess is that the DAM capabilities will meet your needs for years to come.
Art L.
Posted by Craig Schultz on March 1, 2007 at 11:23 AM
What I find so hard to believe is that you have to pay someone to learn about it's capabilities in any detail. Adobe's web site on this product is worthless with just the glossy brochure type overview of what it can do. I hate to download products just to try them out as they always leave stuff behind on deinstallation or sometimes they can cause other system instabilities, but if that's the only way to see what it can do...
Real bummer, looks like LR has a 10,000 x 10,000 pixel max image size too. Not so good with my large panoramic and stitched shots. How are you large format people going to import anything as even a 2000dpi scan will almost put you over this level.
Note: Your photos and their metadata will be saved in the XMP sidecar files and burned to the CD/DVD, but any other data that was saved in the Photoshop Lightroom database, such as Collection membership, hierarchical keywords, image pan positions, Develop module panel switches, stacks, virtual copies, snapshots, and develop history is not saved with your photos. Therefore, it's best to archive only the images you haven't worked on in Photoshop Lightroom, and keep the images you have worked on in your library database.
This quote is from Adobe's Support site and it looks like you can't archive/move your images to new storage without loosing the majority of your work. I guess LR is off my list at this point.
Craig - I think you misunderstood that snippet from Adobe. They are only referring to using Lightroom to burn to optical media. If you back up your Lightroom database to ANY media, your stuff is all saved intact. Your actual image files are independent of the Lightroom database and can be kept anywhere, and backed up anywhere, too.
As for your other list:
I would also like LR to:
1) Keep track of changes to file metadata via Bridge/CS3, especially embedded color previews in DNG files
2) Be able to migrate images to different drives and simply tell LR that they are on this new drive and not have to reindex everything again
3) Be able to use a networked drive for image storage and have LR function when that drive is online as well as offline
4) Have auto updating views/categories that show all images meeting specific criteria (i.e. a new image gets added to my collection that was taken in Telluride, I want that image to now show up in my "Telluride Collection" without any effort on my part.
5) Have the capability of nested sub-categories
6) Version Tracking
7) Ability to export entire DB to XML file for external use
8) Determine if all indexed images are where they should be
9) Determine if all files in monitored directories are indexed, etc.
Lightroom can do all of this.
I can see how the image size limitation would be problematic for some people though; no doubt this will change with time.
I am using Lightroom for DAM and have had no problems. Its open architecture and SQLite database make a very solid platform that is also very flexible and extensible. Even in v1.0 it is reliable enough to manage your entire image collection, and it will only get more robust in future versions.
For a long while I really was only using Lightroom for raw processing. Prior to using Lightrooom for DAM, I had primarily used iView - for several years and upwards of 20,000 images - and Portfolio before that. I've also used ACDSee on Windows. Compared to those other (more mature) products Lightroom really holds its own.
One important thing that we discussed in the class is the possible benefits of using multiple Lightroom databases and the various ways to approach the data structures. This is a very personal part of the workflow; most people do different things here. It's largely up to the individual to choose a particular approach but you will most likely improve it later. This is a natural part of the iterative nature of any kind of photographic workflow, especially with digital capture.
I saw a demo by Peter Krogh at PhotoPlus Expo last November. Peter is the author of the definitive book on DAM. He is recommending Lightroom for DAM now. (He was using iView before.) His methods are easy to learn and adopt into your own workflow.
So Lightroom is truly the all-in-one DAM solution, but how you choose to implement it is a personal choice. If you have a huge image library, it will take some time to properly import everything into Lightroom.
(I haven't seen one, but a tool for converting iView catalogs into Lightroom libraries may show up. Any software developers here want to take a stab at this? Would be very useful....)
Here are some good online resources about Lightroom:
Check out George Jardine's Lightroom podcasts on iTunes - very interesting stuff. (Search for Adobe Lightroom podcasts in iTunes.)
I am also working on a series of demonstration video podcasts that I will distribute at my site this spring (LightroomPodcasts.com). These podcasts will cover all the features and techniques in Lightroom with an emphasis on the skills required for Adobe Expert Certification in Lightroom.
And as for buying it, if you hurry you can use the promo code Macworld07 and get it for less than $170.
So there's no reason not to give it a shot. I would recommend importing a few batches of your existing images and working with the program a while before you go whole-hog.
Thanks for the update Nat, but that size limit is a killer for me. Can't do it as half my images are at least that big.
I'm currently reading Peters book, read his forums and it seems odd that you say he's recommending LR for DAM now as I just read a post on his forum here, reply #11 that seems to indicate otherwise. Perhaps you meant he says it can be used as a DAM, but other products are still better.
In any case, I'll look forward to v1.x and maybe the size limit will be removed and I won't have chosen another product yet.
I'll check out your links for more info in the meantime.
Craig
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on March 1, 2007 at 11:31 PM
Although these FAQs don't go into a lot of specific details, I think this NAPP excerpt is a good, high level summary of how Lightroom ver. 1.0 fits in with Photoshop CS3.
Posted by Nat Coalson on March 2, 2007 at 11:28 AM
Craig-
One thing I neglected to clarify is that Lightroom is specifically intended to manage and process raw images - not large, stitched, composite PSDs. With this in mind, it's unlikely that the file size limit will be a problem for most people when working with raw images for the forseeable future. I only use Lightroom to organize and process my raw images. Following processing, I use Bridge to access the converted PSDs.
At PhotoPlus, Krogh demonstrated a DAM model using Lightroom only - maybe this was a political decision. In the forum you listed, he does seem to step back from that commitment. It sounds to me like he is hesitating due to the immaturity of Lightroom compared to iView.... iView is time-tested and proven to be a vital component of a complete DAM system. There's nothing wrong with using both Lightroom and iView in conjunction, but I'm hoping that over time we won't have to use so many different apps.
As a photographer and digital imaging professional, I've found Lightroom combined with CS2/CS3 totally meets my needs. I don't know how Lightroom will meet your needs from a database development standpoint, but I do understand the reluctance to commit to a new piece of software.
You can work with the Lightroom database directly using a free utility called SQLite Database Browser.
One thing I neglected to clarify is that Lightroom is specifically intended to manage and process raw images - not large, stitched, composite PSDs. With this in mind, it's unlikely that the file size limit will be a problem for most people when working with raw images for the forseeable future. I only use Lightroom to organize and process my raw images. Following processing, I use Bridge to access the converted PSDs.
Hmm, this seems somewhat backwards to me if they really want it to be a DAM solution too. I actually thought LR would be better for the composite PSD viewing due to it being an Adobe format. Perhaps this is an indication that they will really not continue developing the DAM features and only push forward on the other modules leaving DAM as is and just pushing it as another RAW converter which is already part of CS3. I hope not.
I definitely want what ever solution I pick to be able to manage all my digital assets; from raw images all the way to final composite PSD files, after all, the solution is being implemented in order to find all these assets easily and the final images are actually the most valuable as they are what clients will actually see and what I have spent the most time on.
Thinking about this more last night I would also like to see the solution manage my digital movies, mp3s, etc, etc. Anything on my system should be able to be tagged, keyworded, etc and found easily. At this point, LR seems unlikely to provide any of these options.
It looks like IDimager, iView or iMatch are probably much more rebust in the DAM area and I will concentrate more on them going forward.
Your choice makes a lot of sense. Your context of DAM to include [1]all[/i] media, Lightroom is clearly not the best choice. Lightroom was made for digital photographers.
I have no doubt that Lightroom is the platform on which Adobe will eventually build their all-in-one DAM solution. Lightroom's ability to process raw images and better metadata handling than anything previously released defines the application - tailor-made for processing lots of digital camera captures.
Using iView catalogs to manage the DAM aspect of the workflow makes perfect sense for people who already own both applications. For digital photographers who don't already own iView, or don't want to buy more programs than necessary, Lightroom will do everything they need it to.
Discussion
13 repliesI don't want to pay another $199 to Adobe for this if it won't do what a dedicated DAM program would, so I'd love to hear everyones opinion on what they think this new product will do at the moment in these two areas.
Thanks for the help.
Craig
I was also skeptical about the "need" for Lightroom and am very happy with the CS3 Beta. However, I do now see the improved workflow efficiencies that are possible, and of course the basic concept of Lightroom storing only instructions and never changing the original data is very appealing.
Up until now I have also been happy working without a DAM. My folders are well organized across multiple hard drives and I never have a problem finding any file using the CS Browser. But, I can certainly see the benefits of a DAM. Is Lightroom capable of replacing a dedicated DAM program? I don't know since I have never used one. I doubt it, since this is a version 1.0 release. Also, I have heard comments that Aperture is a better DAM. But it will keep me happy until more features are added in the next release.
Thanks Nat for a great intro.
Now I just need to find some time to play with it.
Since I'm a database administrator, I like the idea of tracking and being able to get very quick access to data given specific criteria. For example, something I would like be able to do is see all images of my daugther between the ages of 1 and 2 with my wife or by herself taken in summer while at my brothers cabin in MN. This would be possible with my current filing system, but it would take a little while, but a DAM database app would show me this in about a second.
I would also like LR to:
1) Keep track of changes to file metadata via Bridge/CS3, especially embedded color previews in DNG files
2) Be able to migrate images to different drives and simply tell LR that they are on this new drive and not have to reindex everything again
3) Be able to use a networked drive for image storage and have LR function when that drive is online as well as offline
4) Have auto updating views/categories that show all images meeting specific criteria (i.e. a new image gets added to my collection that was taken in Telluride, I want that image to now show up in my "Telluride Collection" without any effort on my part.
5) Have the capability of nested sub-categories
6) Version Tracking
7) Ability to export entire DB to XML file for external use
8) Determine if all indexed images are where they should be
9) Determine if all files in monitored directories are indexed, etc.
I'm just starting this search, but I don't want to buy into something that won't meet some of these basic things. LR seems like it "might" fit the bill, but I'm thinking it's going to lack in the category section of things, but perhaps not. Just curious what you all found about regarding some of these things from Nat. New books should be out on this shortly, so a stop at the book store is probably in my near future too.
Craig
I recommend that you spend $15 and watch the videos for yourself.
My guess is that the DAM capabilities will meet your needs for years to come.
Art L.
Craig
This quote is from Adobe's Support site and it looks like you can't archive/move your images to new storage without loosing the majority of your work. I guess LR is off my list at this point.
Craig
Craig - I think you misunderstood that snippet from Adobe. They are only referring to using Lightroom to burn to optical media. If you back up your Lightroom database to ANY media, your stuff is all saved intact. Your actual image files are independent of the Lightroom database and can be kept anywhere, and backed up anywhere, too.
As for your other list:
I would also like LR to:
1) Keep track of changes to file metadata via Bridge/CS3, especially embedded color previews in DNG files
2) Be able to migrate images to different drives and simply tell LR that they are on this new drive and not have to reindex everything again
3) Be able to use a networked drive for image storage and have LR function when that drive is online as well as offline
4) Have auto updating views/categories that show all images meeting specific criteria (i.e. a new image gets added to my collection that was taken in Telluride, I want that image to now show up in my "Telluride Collection" without any effort on my part.
5) Have the capability of nested sub-categories
6) Version Tracking
7) Ability to export entire DB to XML file for external use
8) Determine if all indexed images are where they should be
9) Determine if all files in monitored directories are indexed, etc.
Lightroom can do all of this.
I can see how the image size limitation would be problematic for some people though; no doubt this will change with time.
I am using Lightroom for DAM and have had no problems. Its open architecture and SQLite database make a very solid platform that is also very flexible and extensible. Even in v1.0 it is reliable enough to manage your entire image collection, and it will only get more robust in future versions.
For a long while I really was only using Lightroom for raw processing. Prior to using Lightrooom for DAM, I had primarily used iView - for several years and upwards of 20,000 images - and Portfolio before that. I've also used ACDSee on Windows. Compared to those other (more mature) products Lightroom really holds its own.
One important thing that we discussed in the class is the possible benefits of using multiple Lightroom databases and the various ways to approach the data structures. This is a very personal part of the workflow; most people do different things here. It's largely up to the individual to choose a particular approach but you will most likely improve it later. This is a natural part of the iterative nature of any kind of photographic workflow, especially with digital capture.
I saw a demo by Peter Krogh at PhotoPlus Expo last November. Peter is the author of the definitive book on DAM. He is recommending Lightroom for DAM now. (He was using iView before.) His methods are easy to learn and adopt into your own workflow.
So Lightroom is truly the all-in-one DAM solution, but how you choose to implement it is a personal choice. If you have a huge image library, it will take some time to properly import everything into Lightroom.
(I haven't seen one, but a tool for converting iView catalogs into Lightroom libraries may show up. Any software developers here want to take a stab at this? Would be very useful....)
Here are some good online resources about Lightroom:
lightroom-news.com
photoshopuser.com
luminous-landscape.com
inside-lightroom.com
seanmcfoto.com
lightroomextra.com
www.oreillynet.com/digitalmedia/blog/adobe_lightroom/
www.digitalmedia.oreilly.com/lightroom/
Check out George Jardine's Lightroom podcasts on iTunes - very interesting stuff. (Search for Adobe Lightroom podcasts in iTunes.)
I am also working on a series of demonstration video podcasts that I will distribute at my site this spring (LightroomPodcasts.com). These podcasts will cover all the features and techniques in Lightroom with an emphasis on the skills required for Adobe Expert Certification in Lightroom.
Adobe offers a free, fully functional 30 day trial at
www.adobe.com/products/photoshoplightroom/
And as for buying it, if you hurry you can use the promo code Macworld07 and get it for less than $170.
So there's no reason not to give it a shot. I would recommend importing a few batches of your existing images and working with the program a while before you go whole-hog.
Have fun!!
I'm currently reading Peters book, read his forums and it seems odd that you say he's recommending LR for DAM now as I just read a post on his forum here, reply #11 that seems to indicate otherwise. Perhaps you meant he says it can be used as a DAM, but other products are still better.
In any case, I'll look forward to v1.x and maybe the size limit will be removed and I won't have chosen another product yet.
I'll check out your links for more info in the meantime.
Craig
Where Does Lightroom Fit In?
One thing I neglected to clarify is that Lightroom is specifically intended to manage and process raw images - not large, stitched, composite PSDs. With this in mind, it's unlikely that the file size limit will be a problem for most people when working with raw images for the forseeable future. I only use Lightroom to organize and process my raw images. Following processing, I use Bridge to access the converted PSDs.
At PhotoPlus, Krogh demonstrated a DAM model using Lightroom only - maybe this was a political decision. In the forum you listed, he does seem to step back from that commitment. It sounds to me like he is hesitating due to the immaturity of Lightroom compared to iView.... iView is time-tested and proven to be a vital component of a complete DAM system. There's nothing wrong with using both Lightroom and iView in conjunction, but I'm hoping that over time we won't have to use so many different apps.
As a photographer and digital imaging professional, I've found Lightroom combined with CS2/CS3 totally meets my needs. I don't know how Lightroom will meet your needs from a database development standpoint, but I do understand the reluctance to commit to a new piece of software.
You can work with the Lightroom database directly using a free utility called SQLite Database Browser.
Hmm, this seems somewhat backwards to me if they really want it to be a DAM solution too. I actually thought LR would be better for the composite PSD viewing due to it being an Adobe format. Perhaps this is an indication that they will really not continue developing the DAM features and only push forward on the other modules leaving DAM as is and just pushing it as another RAW converter which is already part of CS3. I hope not.
I definitely want what ever solution I pick to be able to manage all my digital assets; from raw images all the way to final composite PSD files, after all, the solution is being implemented in order to find all these assets easily and the final images are actually the most valuable as they are what clients will actually see and what I have spent the most time on.
Thinking about this more last night I would also like to see the solution manage my digital movies, mp3s, etc, etc. Anything on my system should be able to be tagged, keyworded, etc and found easily. At this point, LR seems unlikely to provide any of these options.
It looks like IDimager, iView or iMatch are probably much more rebust in the DAM area and I will concentrate more on them going forward.
Thanks again, Craig
I have no doubt that Lightroom is the platform on which Adobe will eventually build their all-in-one DAM solution. Lightroom's ability to process raw images and better metadata handling than anything previously released defines the application - tailor-made for processing lots of digital camera captures.
Using iView catalogs to manage the DAM aspect of the workflow makes perfect sense for people who already own both applications. For digital photographers who don't already own iView, or don't want to buy more programs than necessary, Lightroom will do everything they need it to.