Well after a lot of phone calls emails and thought Derek and I headed off to RMNP. The plan was orriginally to hike the Twin Sisters Peak to photograph sunrise and moonset over Longs Peak. Thw Snowshoe factor and the reality that neither of us knew the trail well enough to hike it in the dark. So instead we went to Dream lake to at least capture the Sunrise! Here's just one I had a few minutes to work on before heading off to work this morning. There will be more!
I wondered where you guys went. I was up on Twin Sisters for a beautiful moonlit morning. No alpenglow though. Sorry I wasn't around the day before to get your calls or e-mails.
Posted by Todd Caudle on March 7, 2007 at 11:11 AM
The top half of this image has way too much dynamic range for your camera to record. The shadows are blacker than night and the snow field in the center is totally blown out. The colors look a little sickly, too. The ice is really interesting though. Is that open water over on the right, or am I seeing things?
Todd, the area on the right is simply an area of clear ice with some cool ice fractures. Hopefully Brent D. will post what he got there.
Posted by Derek Sedillo on March 7, 2007 at 11:34 AM
Erik,
I got an email from Tony B. just before I hit the sack Monday night. He said that the Twin Sisters trail conditions looked like snowshoes were required from top to bottom. Unfortunately neither James or I have snowshoes and it was to late to go rent a pair. So we did dream lake instead. It was a beautiful morning. We were hoping to have a little more in the way of clouds. But the only clouds were in the east.
Posted by Mel Ladewig on March 7, 2007 at 12:42 PM
Derek and James,
I had the same issues up there 2 years ago at this time of year. In fact I think I went up on the 6th of March on that year. To make the scene work, I think it will require either HDR or several exposures and a lot of time blending or a GND and willingness to lose the shadow detail on the left.
I could never get the image from my old Kodak digicam to work. This was a multiple exposure blend, but I didn't get enough exposures to get the highlights correct. I've gotten it to a better point than this, but this is what I had online to link. bad dream lake
Posted by Todd Caudle on March 7, 2007 at 12:46 PM
Yeah, I definitely think the way to go would be to blend a few exposures, a painstaking process for sure, but one that's open to us in this digital age.
Posted by Mel Ladewig on March 7, 2007 at 12:47 PM
But I should add that I think that this image can be made to work this time of year and would absolutely be worthwhile. I'll go back up there when I have time. The wind sculpted ice is amazing and the background is dramatic.
Interesting shot from last year at the same exact time.
Do you think part of the issue is the angle of the sun this time of the year? Or is Dream always a challenge at sunrise because of the direction that it faces? The trees to the left are in the shade and would definitely require multiple exposures. You almost need an exposure just for the trees because everything else will be blown out. Making it look natural would be the greatest challenge I think.
Maybe Erik, Tony or someone else has already tried this? I agree with Todd that it is worth the effort with such as beautiful location. I'll work on my stuff some more to see what I can bring out.
I think the problem is the direction it faces and the time of year. You shouldn't really be able to get this shot anymore in the summer as the east end of the lake is closed for restoration. The summer light should hit the trees on the south wall a little better, but the snow also isn't as much of an issue on the west end at that time of year.
I think you'd have to leave the trees somewhat shaded to make it look natural, but they definitely need some more light.
I had been planning on climbing Twin Sisters for months but took a look at the clouds east of Fort Collins about 1am and decided the odds of alpenglow were too low to spend the effort to climb it.
I went back this morning and got this one not too far from rte 7. Not great Alpenglow but I'll take it.
It is tough to make the Dream Lake shot work in winter. The trick is to catch the earliest alpenglow when the light is fairly low contrast, and to have some snow on the tress. I'd also use a grad, perhaps even diagonally.
Aw man! Your shot is terrific!!! There was no glow when I was up there. I only went half way to the overlook and the moon was off over Granite Pass so I didn't come away with anything spectacular. Here are a few of my comparatively lame shots from that morning. At sunrise all went gray.
Yeah, this is a tough shot in winter due to the where the sun is rising and the snow. Trees in deep shade and snow in direct light… that's a ton of contrast. Multiple exposures is the best approach, imo. I'm no expert with shadow/highlight, but I'd guess that the range in this shot is beyond what s/h can handle while keeping things natural looking. What you really need in winter is clouds, which will help by diffusing the light hitting the snow and reflecting some light into the darker areas.
Summer will have the sun rising further north. There's about a 40-degree difference between where the sun is rising now, and where it will be in June/July, and that will help immensely. Erik has what is arguably the best shot of Dream Lake ever, taken in June.
I will probably try the Twin Sister hike once the trail clears a bit more. See the ridge in the bottom of your shot. How about hiking in toward Longs and shooting from there? Has anyone tried this? I am just curious about other Longs vantage points. We also saw a few spots near Moraine Park that looked like they had potential.
It looks like you also caught the moonset over Longs in the first shot.
It was still dark when the moon set over Dream Lake. So I didn't shoot it. But I have been thinking about how to do a night shot with the moon properly exposed in it. I think what I will try is using two exposures - one for the moon and one for the scene. Then merge the two. Usually all moon definition is lost with longer exposures required for a night scene.
I like your shot of Longs Pond the best - really nice clouds which came later. It also looks like the pond melt off is slowly occurring
You have to get above the treeline on the Long's Peak trail before you get views of the diamond. I think that's about 3-4 miles in. Erik may have some photos from here, but the view may be somewhat blocked until you go around the corner to Chasm Lake.
I haven't found a good foreground for Long's from Moraine Park; many people shoot it from Beaver Meadows with aspens in the foregound.
If you like, I can just cut & paste my impressions from your initial post here. The shadows are marginally improved, but do you not see the blown out highlights in the heart of the image? Maybe if they were on a more fringe part of the image they'd be passable, but not right in the line of sight. Try burning the hottest portion a bit, just to take some of the eye strain out of it.
What bothers me is that when I see the image online here on the site as opposed to in PS it is very different. I agree with the Hot Spot in the middle and what bothers me, is that when I try to shoot where i have very little post production work in the camera and expose correctly, i get the "Too Dark" comments or Color casts. It Seems that everyone is depending less on getting it right out the camera and depending on PS 90% of the time. I know that is not the case but it seems that way. I am however taking all the critiques and running with them trying to acheive what I would consider a moderate meeting pioint of the minds and tastes. While some here prefer the Happy and Bright images and other the moderate and a few maybe the darker and moody. I know I'll never please some, but i think when I find a medium ground i can bounce around in. My opinion on my own shots on this post is I think they Suck, because while trying to expose them bright and happy I compromised and lost what I was after in my own way. However I am being flexible and trying to find middle ground to to go.
There's a lot of space between the dark images typical of your GotG images and the blown out posts here. You could brighten up the GotG images and tone down these images and both can successfully reside in the middle. The short of it is that way too dark isn't good, and way too bright isn't any better. Most of the scene in the images here is fine; but the blow highlights should be a red flag to you.
I can speak only for myself, but when the contrast is this high, 100% of my images are optimized in PS. There's simply no way to have the camera alone control this extreme range. Back when there was only film, and prints were made directly from film, this shot probably would never be possible. But, two exposures blended in PS could easily make this work. Alternatively, one image exposed to keep the highlights under control and then adjusted to pull detail out of the shadows might also work. It looks like you took your first post and brightened the whole thing. Selectively working with the dark areas without increasing brightness in the already marginally-blown areas would be a more successful approach.
But my question is, if you don't think highly of these images, why post them? If it's to ask for help, that's one thing and you should say so; if it's to present them as finished works, you'll likely continue to get some responses that reflect the viewer's confusion.
Actually I agree with you 100% My frustration is more the fact that I rushed to post these images and didn't give the images the time they deserve. However when I post another series I took, you'll see that what I turned my attention to when i realized the Dynamic range I was working with at the time was not what I was wanting to work on, you'll see that what I turned to was worth the attention. Can we say Finally some ICE SHOTS?
Posted by Derek Sedillo on March 8, 2007 at 11:49 AM
James,
Those ice shots are great, especially the last one!
Also your landscape by the log looks much better than the others - more detail in shadows and highlights. I found the same thing. I think the light was a little more even then. That is at least what I found with my shots.
Discussion
27 repliesI got an email from Tony B. just before I hit the sack Monday night. He said that the Twin Sisters trail conditions looked like snowshoes were required from top to bottom. Unfortunately neither James or I have snowshoes and it was to late to go rent a pair. So we did dream lake instead. It was a beautiful morning. We were hoping to have a little more in the way of clouds. But the only clouds were in the east.
Todd - the dynamic range was really tough that morning. I noticed it immediately when reviewing my images as well. I pulled out a little more detail using PS shadows/highlights. But I believe more work is in order. Here are a couple of mine from yesterday:
http://derek.zenfolio.com/img/p274608264-4.jpg
http://derek.zenfolio.com/img/p134627558-4.jpg
We did take some more shots a little later with more light which I haven't even processed yet. I think those will come out better.
Here are the clouds looking the other direction:
http://derek.zenfolio.com/img/p102108320-4.jpg
I had the same issues up there 2 years ago at this time of year. In fact I think I went up on the 6th of March on that year. To make the scene work, I think it will require either HDR or several exposures and a lot of time blending or a GND and willingness to lose the shadow detail on the left.
I could never get the image from my old Kodak digicam to work. This was a multiple exposure blend, but I didn't get enough exposures to get the highlights correct.
bad dream lake
Interesting shot from last year at the same exact time.
Do you think part of the issue is the angle of the sun this time of the year? Or is Dream always a challenge at sunrise because of the direction that it faces? The trees to the left are in the shade and would definitely require multiple exposures. You almost need an exposure just for the trees because everything else will be blown out. Making it look natural would be the greatest challenge I think.
Maybe Erik, Tony or someone else has already tried this? I agree with Todd that it is worth the effort with such as beautiful location. I'll work on my stuff some more to see what I can bring out.
I think you'd have to leave the trees somewhat shaded to make it look natural, but they definitely need some more light.
How high up did you go on Twin Sisters?
I had been planning on climbing Twin Sisters for months but took a look at the clouds east of Fort Collins about 1am and decided the odds of alpenglow were too low to spend the effort to climb it.
I went back this morning and got this one not too far from rte 7. Not great Alpenglow but I'll take it.
It is tough to make the Dream Lake shot work in winter. The trick is to catch the earliest alpenglow when the light is fairly low contrast, and to have some snow on the tress. I'd also use a grad, perhaps even diagonally.
http://morninglight.us/forum/07/0306.jpg
http://morninglight.us/forum/07/0307.jpg
http://morninglight.us/forum/07/0308.jpg
(Sorry, I can't post inline. I let my NPN subscription lapse.)
Summer will have the sun rising further north. There's about a 40-degree difference between where the sun is rising now, and where it will be in June/July, and that will help immensely. Erik has what is arguably the best shot of Dream Lake ever , taken in June.
I am glad 'someone' got the moonset over Longs
I will probably try the Twin Sister hike once the trail clears a bit more. See the ridge in the bottom of your shot. How about hiking in toward Longs and shooting from there? Has anyone tried this? I am just curious about other Longs vantage points. We also saw a few spots near Moraine Park that looked like they had potential.
- Derek
It looks like you also caught the moonset over Longs in the first shot.
It was still dark when the moon set over Dream Lake. So I didn't shoot it. But I have been thinking about how to do a night shot with the moon properly exposed in it. I think what I will try is using two exposures - one for the moon and one for the scene. Then merge the two. Usually all moon definition is lost with longer exposures required for a night scene.
I like your shot of Longs Pond the best - really nice clouds which came later. It also looks like the pond melt off is slowly occurring
- Derek
You have to get above the treeline on the Long's Peak trail before you get views of the diamond. I think that's about 3-4 miles in. Erik may have some photos from here, but the view may be somewhat blocked until you go around the corner to Chasm Lake.
I haven't found a good foreground for Long's from Moraine Park; many people shoot it from Beaver Meadows with aspens in the foregound.
Looking forward to getting the book. Gotta put in a call to the publisher though to see what's taking so long...
I can speak only for myself, but when the contrast is this high, 100% of my images are optimized in PS. There's simply no way to have the camera alone control this extreme range. Back when there was only film, and prints were made directly from film, this shot probably would never be possible. But, two exposures blended in PS could easily make this work. Alternatively, one image exposed to keep the highlights under control and then adjusted to pull detail out of the shadows might also work. It looks like you took your first post and brightened the whole thing. Selectively working with the dark areas without increasing brightness in the already marginally-blown areas would be a more successful approach.
But my question is, if you don't think highly of these images, why post them? If it's to ask for help, that's one thing and you should say so; if it's to present them as finished works, you'll likely continue to get some responses that reflect the viewer's confusion.
It's sometimes possible to "tone down" the highlights by using the Highlight slider in Shadow/Highlights. Have you tries that at all?
I love the way the wavy ice looks; especially the glimmer in the middle. Makes me want to try my hand out there before things melt.
Ken
http://www.naturephotographynaturally.com/galleries/CO2/CO2ImgPgs/DSC_7640-03-06-07.html
http://www.naturephotographynaturally.com/galleries/CO2/CO2ImgPgs/DSC_7626-03-06-07.html
http://www.naturephotographynaturally.com/galleries/CO2/CO2ImgPgs/DSC_7651-03-06-07.html
http://www.naturephotographynaturally.com/galleries/CO2/CO2ImgPgs/DSC_7656-03-06-07.html
Those ice shots are great, especially the last one!
Also your landscape by the log looks much better than the others - more detail in shadows and highlights. I found the same thing. I think the light was a little more even then. That is at least what I found with my shots.
- Derek