Some of you might remember I was looking into buying a Wrangler last month...well I'm pretty close now. I have 2 questions.
First, is the soft top not good for winter? Is it too poor at insulation for hard winters? I really want a soft top for the summer months, but the issue with winter is a major question mark.
Second, if I opt for a hard top. How hard are they for removal for the summer drives that I don't want a top?
I've never had a soft top, so can't comment on that.
The hard top is not difficult to remove, but you need at least two people, unless you have some kind of pulley/storage system rigged up in your garage - as I do. The other issue is where will you store the top, if you plan to leave it off for an extended period.
Heck, the hard top isn't the best for hard winters . Seriously, I've never used the soft-top in the winter, so perhaps someone else can answer that one.
The Hard top is not hard to remove. I've done it alone on occasion and only scuffed it up slightly. It is far easier with a buddy, or, if you have a garage, you can rig up a pully lifter system which is sweet.
I'm not sure, but I think I get a slight (very slight) discount on the insurance for having a hard vs. soft top (soft tops can get broken into much easier).
As a Wrangler owner with a wife, two dogs, and far too much crap, make sure you do an honest assessment of your space needs. I love the Jeep, but we're stuffed to the gills on almost every outing.
As far as the tops goes. I think the best option based on your questions is to get the dual tops option if you can. Either way, you can buy hard and soft tops for a jeep later without much trouble. Aftermarket softops are easier to get though.
The soft top is OK for the winter, but has some issues. The biggest or most persistant is that it is really hard to clean the plastic windows without scratching them. The other big issue is that the soft top windows can actually crack in extreme cold from rolling them or hitting them with an ice scraper. The last issue is that the canvas can stretch from the weight of snow. When you get to the next summer, this can make the soft top louder. Finally the soft top will wear out and you will have to replace it at some time. This is the reason after market soft tops are easy to find.
The hard top takes up a fair amount of space when you remove it. There are hoists to store it overhead in a garage, and racks that can store it on end. But it still takes up space. The hard top is more secure than the softtop if you are going to park in a questionable area.
Oh, and in reference to Alex's comments about space, if the Unlimited Rubicon had existed when I bought my SWB Rubicon, that is what would be parked in my driveway. As it stands, my wife and I do fine in the Rubi with the rear seat removed for all the trips we've done to date.
sweeeet. Thanks guys. I'm leaning towards a hard top, but the idea of going roofless on a beautiful summer day is so hard to let go of. That is without having to take a hardtop off and store it somewhere :)
If any on you jeepers want to buy a slightly used hard top hoist send me an email. I don't know what the new ones are selling for, but I'm sure we can make a deal.
I'm leaning towards a hard top, but the idea of going roofless on a beautiful summer day is so hard to let go of.
Amen to that!! Mine doesn't go off-road though...unless "flying" counts!
Seriously, I vasilated for months about getting a convertible or hardtop. I'm really glad that I went convertible. Cruising through the mountains with the top down in the summer is a blast. Doing it off-road is probably even better. If you go that route, you definitely won't regret it.
Posted by Brent Murphy on March 8, 2007 at 10:39 PM
With a soft top, keep in mind that you probably plan to have camera equipment with you. When I had my CJ-7, I always got nervous stopping to eat after photo trip (or even just hiking/backpacking trips). There is a lot of money in that car, protected by some pretty flimsy canvas. Stopping for lunch in Idaho Springs, I always brought my pack inside with me. A real pain.
I had a hard top, too, but it was just a hassle, and I eventually sold it. I just loved driving top-down too much. I suffered through the security concerns so I could drive topless (and doorless, actually). If I ignore the maintenance headaches and my still-painful credit card bills, I have fond memories of my soft-top CJ.
Just another note about the hard top - If you have a garage and a pulley system, it shouldn't be a big deal. But without a pulley, keep this in mind: While you may be able to take the hard top on and off by yourself, it's not exactly easy, and not something you want to be doing every day. The most I ever made the switch was maybe 2-3 times in one year.
As for soft top in winter, it shouldn't be a problem. I had mine on through a number of winters without any problems. The snow might weigh it down a bit, but you just climb in and punch the top a little, and it all falls off. And the interior is small enough that it will heat up fairly quickly. I drove back from Fraser in the middle of winter with a freshly cut Christmas tree sticking out through my open rear "window", and was comfortable the whole time.
The plastic windows can get scratched pretty easily, and they can be tough to work with in cold weather. The best way to clean them would be to hose off the vehicle to remove the dirt, then polish with a plastic polish, not window cleaner.
Posted by Kalin Wilson on March 9, 2007 at 1:17 AM
Just get a 4runner and end all of your pain!
Posted by Mel Ladewig on March 9, 2007 at 10:33 AM
My jeep is 3 years old (and change). The resale value is 19,630 according to Kelley. I paid 25,000 for it. I'd say that it is holding its value pretty well for a new car.
At the time that I bought it, the wrangler had the best resale value in its class (small SUV). It got hurt a little by all of Chrysler's zero percent and discount deals for awhile, but that is the story with any American car maker lately.
As for reliability, its been flawless for me and most of the other people I jeep with. Granted I've only put 22,000 miles on mine, since it isn't my daily driver. I know lots of people that already have 100,000 miles on theirs, and you can find Cherokees with the same 4.0L with 200,000+ miles on them still working OK. No power windows, no power locks. There just isn't alot of electrical stuff to go wrong in these things and the old drivetrain is an old proven design.
I know of a couple of people that have had issues from trail use. One rolled his jeep on its side (a flop) and didn't get the engine shut off quick enough. Oil got up into the heads and caused some problems. This would happen in a Toyota if you rolled or flopped it. Several people running oversize (35" to 37") tires have broken axle shafts on the trail, but they weren't playing nice. With the 2003 Rubicons, there were some with leaking rear main seals, but it was covered under a recall. It was just a bad batch of 4.0L seals. I don't know too much about the new 3.7L V-6, but I haven't heard anything negative about it yet. Like I said, my jeep site has 10,000 members, so I see a large sample of owners. A Jeep TJ/LJ has much better reliability than a 30 year old CJ. Just like a new FJ has much better reliability than a 30 year old FJ-40.
I'm not saying a 4runner couldn't do it, I just don't see many out on these trails. And I don't think 4runners have had a soft top option since 1985 or so.
Posted by Jon Leibowitz on March 9, 2007 at 10:58 AM
haha, those are awesome pictures! One thing I have been thinking about if I got a soft top would be to get a secure lockbox in the back. Big enough to fit some gear and all that without worrying when I leave the car.
I have the add-a-trunk or insta-trunk or something like that. Can't remember exactly what they call the option. Take a look at it at the dealership. It didn't work well in my SWB Rubi, but if they made it for the long wheel base I think it would work really well. For the short wheelbase, it is big enough for a woman's purse size object, but not a big backpack.
Also, look at Tuffy products. They make excellent locking drawers and consoles and gloveboxes for jeeps. I have their dual overhead console and it is pretty secure.
Mel-
Posted by Scott Borger on March 9, 2007 at 3:37 PM
Actually, the 2006 Wrangler had awful reviews. There was not even one model in any of the categories that even matched the class average...Here is a link to the foremost authority on car/truck/SUV reviews (used by KBB): http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2006-jeep-wrangler-1.htm The jeep wrangers had scores of 29-34 and an overall score of 2. On the other hand, the 2006 4Runner had scores of 57-62 and an overall score of 7. Now I'm sure people will want to argue about the metrics used and the differences between the two vehicles, but the drastic differences in the #'s speak loudly in my opinion.
Posted by Jon Leibowitz on March 9, 2007 at 11:12 PM
That is a pretty horrible review, but then again....a wrangler is not for everyone. People buying wranglers aren't expecting the luxury or comfort.
Posted by Scott Borger on March 9, 2007 at 11:52 PM
Sorry for being so blunt and objective about things. I catch myself doing this far too often. I just figured that if you were going to spend that kind of money you might want to see the reviews. To be fair, the quiet factor and ride quality are not really a comfort that one would expect (or need) from a jeep. On the other hand, the reliability, value, handling and fuel economy seem to be elements that would be important to anyone...but by all means, if you want a jeep, get one.
Posted by Jon Leibowitz on March 10, 2007 at 12:07 AM
I have actually never seen such poor reports on gas mileage. Fuel economy is closer to 18 according to most over publications.
Posted by Scott Borger on March 10, 2007 at 12:25 AM
That is strange. For what it's worth, the jeep website has it listed at 16 city/ 19 hwy. That is a significant difference from the other report. I can see how each would have their own motivations, but 12 and 13 MPG seems really low. I would guess that it's probably somewhere in between.
Posted by Mel Ladewig on March 10, 2007 at 12:32 AM
First off, they are two different classes. The Rubicon goes into the class with the RAV4 and CRV and other small SUVs. The 4Runner is a different class. And specifically the stat I was talking about was resale value, about which consumer reports says this:
Wrangler is an uncomfortable, unrefined throwback. All versions have outstanding off-road ability and strong resale value, but prices are relatively steep.
The source you listed is heavily influenced by road manners and fuel efficiency. Do you see any metric on there off road performance? Shouldn't that matter for a vehicle that you are going to take off-road. At the same time, they raise the exact same complaints with the FJ Cruiser on suspension, but it scores a 5 instead of 2. Also in the fuel economy class, the wrangler rubicon gets 19mpg, the same as the FJ Cruiser. My Rubicon got 19mpg when it was new on 30.5" tires. Now on 33" tires, it gets 16.8mpg. Larger tires decrease fuel economy The Cruiser scores Fuel Economy of 4 while the Rubicon earns a 2. Sounds to me like they have a bone to pick with the Wrangler and specifically the rubicon. I do read reviews, but I read them at more than face value.
In this review anything with IFS will score better due to the heavy weighting of on-road manners. After all, it is a "road test". But a SFA vehicle will generally thwomp it in difficult 4wheeling and can still behave well on road. The rubicon has gotten it rough in the reviews. Even Peterson 4x4 magazine chose the GX430 over the rubicon for 4x4 of the year, and their reason was that the GX was just so darn plush to drive. Granted it costs $80K, and your average soccer mom would have a heart attack if you gave it trail rash. They admitted that the Rubicon destroyed it and every other new vehicle of that year (2003) including the H2 off-road. I believe the Unlimited Rubicon did finally win Petersen's 4x4 of the year (2005).
A person is going to buy a jeep (by jeep I mean CJ/Wrangler) if that is the right vehicle for them. That is why an "uncomfortable, unrefined throwback" contines to sell well after 60 years on the market. You can point to all the numbers you want that say it shouldn't sell or that people shout dislike them, but the fact is that they continue to sell and sell well and that many people who own jeeps love them.
I don't have any issue with foriegn cars. My other cars are a '95 Honda Accord, '97 Subaru Outback and '71 Fiat 850 spider. I believe strongly in the reliability of most japanese vehicles and have owned two with odometers well over 250,000 miles.
Posted by Scott Fricke on March 11, 2007 at 3:58 AM
I have a 97 Wrangler with a soft top and would recommend if you do go with the soft top to get full doors with regular rollup windows. The half doors with plastic windows are worthless, they scratch up and you can't see out of them. The soft tops are noisy but I never had a problem keeping it warm inside in the winter. The other problem with the soft tops are the rear windows, they close with a zipper that has to make a tight 90 degree turn as you go from the side to the top and on every window I have had (3) the zipper has stopped functioning because it derails on the tight corner, even if you are careful. The replacement tops are about $400.00. I have 192K on it and have only spent about $2,500 in repairs on it in 10 years so it has been a very reliable vehicle even though it has seen extensive off-road use. If you are looking for a new jeep the hardtop in the 2007 models comes in 3 pieces to remedy the removal problems of previous models and give you different opening options.
In regard to the security issue and space problems, I took out the rear seat and built a platform that sits on the wheel wells about 4 inches below the level of the side panels, this creates a secure area below to put camera gear and camping equipment, my dogs or more gear can then go on top. The area below the platform can be accessed only by unlocking and opening the door at the back of the jeep. BTW, the recommendation if you own a soft top is to never leave anything valuable inside and always leave it unlocked because thieves will simply take a knife and slice through the windows to get in. All said I've really enjoyed the Jeep.
If you are looking for a (well) used one, mine is up for sale, comes with a Warn winch and mud tires, and a new top/windows with full doors. I just bought an FJ and the one thing I do miss is convertible option.
Posted by Scott Fricke on March 11, 2007 at 3:58 AM
I have a 97 Wrangler with a soft top and would recommend if you do go with the soft top to get full doors with regular rollup windows. The half doors with plastic windows are worthless, they scratch up and you can't see out of them. The soft tops are noisy but I never had a problem keeping it warm inside in the winter. The other problem with the soft tops are the rear windows, they close with a zipper that has to make a tight 90 degree turn as you go from the side to the top and on every window I have had (3) the zipper has stopped functioning because it derails on the tight corner, even if you are careful. The replacement tops are about $400.00. I have 192K on it and have only spent about $2,500 in repairs on it in 10 years so it has been a very reliable vehicle even though it has seen extensive off-road use. If you are looking for a new jeep the hardtop in the 2007 models comes in 3 pieces to remedy the removal problems of previous models and give you different opening options.
In regard to the security issue and space problems, I took out the rear seat and built a platform that sits on the wheel wells about 4 inches below the level of the side panels, this creates a secure area below to put camera gear and camping equipment, my dogs or more gear can then go on top. The area below the platform can be accessed only by unlocking and opening the door at the back of the jeep. BTW, the recommendation if you own a soft top is to never leave anything valuable inside and always leave it unlocked because thieves will simply take a knife and slice through the windows to get in. All said I've really enjoyed the Jeep.
If you are looking for a (well) used one, mine is up for sale, comes with a Warn winch and mud tires, and a new top/windows with full doors. I just bought an FJ and the one thing I do miss is convertible option.
Posted by Jon Leibowitz on March 11, 2007 at 2:13 PM
Oh Man, to be honest, if I had the money, I would buy the FJ Cruiser in a heartbeat. That car in black is so hot. How are enjoying it?
Posted by Ron Bailey on March 14, 2007 at 11:07 PM
I own a 2003 Wrangler with a 3" lift running 33" mudders and love it. I have the regular doors and a soft top that I would not trade for a hard top any day of the week. I've run this thing in frigid weather and have had to turn the heat down.
I've gotten into places that I would never be able to without the Jeep.
Posted by Brian Jackson on March 15, 2007 at 5:02 PM
"I've gotten into places that I would never be able to without the Jeep."
Discussion
23 repliesFirst, is the soft top not good for winter? Is it too poor at insulation for hard winters? I really want a soft top for the summer months, but the issue with winter is a major question mark.
Second, if I opt for a hard top. How hard are they for removal for the summer drives that I don't want a top?
The hard top is not difficult to remove, but you need at least two people, unless you have some kind of pulley/storage system rigged up in your garage - as I do. The other issue is where will you store the top, if you plan to leave it off for an extended period.
Heck, the hard top isn't the best for hard winters
The Hard top is not hard to remove. I've done it alone on occasion and only scuffed it up slightly. It is far easier with a buddy, or, if you have a garage, you can rig up a pully lifter system which is sweet.
I'm not sure, but I think I get a slight (very slight) discount on the insurance for having a hard vs. soft top (soft tops can get broken into much easier).
As a Wrangler owner with a wife, two dogs, and far too much crap, make sure you do an honest assessment of your space needs. I love the Jeep, but we're stuffed to the gills on almost every outing.
Cheers,
Alex
Woohoo! Another jeeper photog! Take that Darren!
As far as the tops goes. I think the best option based on your questions is to get the dual tops option if you can. Either way, you can buy hard and soft tops for a jeep later without much trouble. Aftermarket softops are easier to get though.
The soft top is OK for the winter, but has some issues. The biggest or most persistant is that it is really hard to clean the plastic windows without scratching them. The other big issue is that the soft top windows can actually crack in extreme cold from rolling them or hitting them with an ice scraper. The last issue is that the canvas can stretch from the weight of snow. When you get to the next summer, this can make the soft top louder. Finally the soft top will wear out and you will have to replace it at some time. This is the reason after market soft tops are easy to find.
The hard top takes up a fair amount of space when you remove it. There are hoists to store it overhead in a garage, and racks that can store it on end. But it still takes up space. The hard top is more secure than the softtop if you are going to park in a questionable area.
Oh, and in reference to Alex's comments about space, if the Unlimited Rubicon had existed when I bought my SWB Rubicon, that is what would be parked in my driveway. As it stands, my wife and I do fine in the Rubi with the rear seat removed for all the trips we've done to date.
I'm a moderator on this jeep site with 10,000 members. Its a great place to go with questions.
http://www.rubiconownersforum.com/phpbb2/index.php
Mel-
PS, just kidding Darren, I'd wheel with ya anytime!
But since I've been traveling or moving for the last 2 summers, I haven't had the soft top on the jeep in 2 years. This summer its going back on!
Like I said, you can buy an aftermarket top from viking or bestop or a bunch of other vendors easy enough. I really like the viking tops.
Amen to that!! Mine doesn't go off-road though...unless "flying" counts!
Seriously, I vasilated for months about getting a convertible or hardtop. I'm really glad that I went convertible. Cruising through the mountains with the top down in the summer is a blast. Doing it off-road is probably even better. If you go that route, you definitely won't regret it.
I had a hard top, too, but it was just a hassle, and I eventually sold it. I just loved driving top-down too much. I suffered through the security concerns so I could drive topless (and doorless, actually). If I ignore the maintenance headaches and my still-painful credit card bills, I have fond memories of my soft-top CJ.
Just another note about the hard top - If you have a garage and a pulley system, it shouldn't be a big deal. But without a pulley, keep this in mind: While you may be able to take the hard top on and off by yourself, it's not exactly easy, and not something you want to be doing every day. The most I ever made the switch was maybe 2-3 times in one year.
As for soft top in winter, it shouldn't be a problem. I had mine on through a number of winters without any problems. The snow might weigh it down a bit, but you just climb in and punch the top a little, and it all falls off. And the interior is small enough that it will heat up fairly quickly. I drove back from Fraser in the middle of winter with a freshly cut Christmas tree sticking out through my open rear "window", and was comfortable the whole time.
The plastic windows can get scratched pretty easily, and they can be tough to work with in cold weather. The best way to clean them would be to hose off the vehicle to remove the dirt, then polish with a plastic polish, not window cleaner.
At the time that I bought it, the wrangler had the best resale value in its class (small SUV). It got hurt a little by all of Chrysler's zero percent and discount deals for awhile, but that is the story with any American car maker lately.
As for reliability, its been flawless for me and most of the other people I jeep with. Granted I've only put 22,000 miles on mine, since it isn't my daily driver. I know lots of people that already have 100,000 miles on theirs, and you can find Cherokees with the same 4.0L with 200,000+ miles on them still working OK. No power windows, no power locks. There just isn't alot of electrical stuff to go wrong in these things and the old drivetrain is an old proven design.
I know of a couple of people that have had issues from trail use. One rolled his jeep on its side (a flop) and didn't get the engine shut off quick enough. Oil got up into the heads and caused some problems. This would happen in a Toyota if you rolled or flopped it. Several people running oversize (35" to 37") tires have broken axle shafts on the trail, but they weren't playing nice. With the 2003 Rubicons, there were some with leaking rear main seals, but it was covered under a recall. It was just a bad batch of 4.0L seals. I don't know too much about the new 3.7L V-6, but I haven't heard anything negative about it yet. Like I said, my jeep site has 10,000 members, so I see a large sample of owners. A Jeep TJ/LJ has much better reliability than a 30 year old CJ. Just like a new FJ has much better reliability than a 30 year old FJ-40.
This is how we drive them.
http://www.alittlemoore.com/albums/ROFMoab2005/100_1612.jpg
http://www.alittlemoore.com/albums/Moab-06/P5030028.sized.jpg
http://www.alittlemoore.com/albums/CO4WH/022_22_001.jpg
I'm not saying a 4runner couldn't do it, I just don't see many out on these trails. And I don't think 4runners have had a soft top option since 1985 or so.
Also, look at Tuffy products. They make excellent locking drawers and consoles and gloveboxes for jeeps. I have their dual overhead console and it is pretty secure.
Mel-
The source you listed is heavily influenced by road manners and fuel efficiency. Do you see any metric on there off road performance? Shouldn't that matter for a vehicle that you are going to take off-road. At the same time, they raise the exact same complaints with the FJ Cruiser on suspension, but it scores a 5 instead of 2. Also in the fuel economy class, the wrangler rubicon gets 19mpg, the same as the FJ Cruiser. My Rubicon got 19mpg when it was new on 30.5" tires. Now on 33" tires, it gets 16.8mpg. Larger tires decrease fuel economy The Cruiser scores Fuel Economy of 4 while the Rubicon earns a 2. Sounds to me like they have a bone to pick with the Wrangler and specifically the rubicon. I do read reviews, but I read them at more than face value.
In this review anything with IFS will score better due to the heavy weighting of on-road manners. After all, it is a "road test". But a SFA vehicle will generally thwomp it in difficult 4wheeling and can still behave well on road. The rubicon has gotten it rough in the reviews. Even Peterson 4x4 magazine chose the GX430 over the rubicon for 4x4 of the year, and their reason was that the GX was just so darn plush to drive. Granted it costs $80K, and your average soccer mom would have a heart attack if you gave it trail rash. They admitted that the Rubicon destroyed it and every other new vehicle of that year (2003) including the H2 off-road. I believe the Unlimited Rubicon did finally win Petersen's 4x4 of the year (2005).
A person is going to buy a jeep (by jeep I mean CJ/Wrangler) if that is the right vehicle for them. That is why an "uncomfortable, unrefined throwback" contines to sell well after 60 years on the market. You can point to all the numbers you want that say it shouldn't sell or that people shout dislike them, but the fact is that they continue to sell and sell well and that many people who own jeeps love them.
I don't have any issue with foriegn cars. My other cars are a '95 Honda Accord, '97 Subaru Outback and '71 Fiat 850 spider. I believe strongly in the reliability of most japanese vehicles and have owned two with odometers well over 250,000 miles.
In regard to the security issue and space problems, I took out the rear seat and built a platform that sits on the wheel wells about 4 inches below the level of the side panels, this creates a secure area below to put camera gear and camping equipment, my dogs or more gear can then go on top. The area below the platform can be accessed only by unlocking and opening the door at the back of the jeep. BTW, the recommendation if you own a soft top is to never leave anything valuable inside and always leave it unlocked because thieves will simply take a knife and slice through the windows to get in. All said I've really enjoyed the Jeep.
If you are looking for a (well) used one, mine is up for sale, comes with a Warn winch and mud tires, and a new top/windows with full doors. I just bought an FJ and the one thing I do miss is convertible option.
In regard to the security issue and space problems, I took out the rear seat and built a platform that sits on the wheel wells about 4 inches below the level of the side panels, this creates a secure area below to put camera gear and camping equipment, my dogs or more gear can then go on top. The area below the platform can be accessed only by unlocking and opening the door at the back of the jeep. BTW, the recommendation if you own a soft top is to never leave anything valuable inside and always leave it unlocked because thieves will simply take a knife and slice through the windows to get in. All said I've really enjoyed the Jeep.
If you are looking for a (well) used one, mine is up for sale, comes with a Warn winch and mud tires, and a new top/windows with full doors. I just bought an FJ and the one thing I do miss is convertible option.
I've gotten into places that I would never be able to without the Jeep.
Ditto!
Brian