Mission:
I'm ready to upgrade from my "enthusiast" camera (Kodak Z612) and build a decent DSLR starter kit. I would like to keep it around $2,000, but I can stretch it a bit further if need be. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Requirements:
I'll probably need two or three lenses to cover macro, wide (landscape), and telephoto (wildlife/avian). I would like for the landscape lens to be 35mm equivalent or wider, and on this lens, maximum aperture isn't terribly important to me since I'll typically use a tripod and want a lot of DOF. As for the telephoto, I would like a somewhat fast lens, both in terms of aperture and focus, but I'll take what I can get without breaking the bank. On any lens, I would like for the optics to be sharp enough for high quality prints at 8x10, and hopefully up to 16x20 or larger if possible. Ideally I would like to get into photography semi-professionally in the near future, hopefully selling a few prints so I can start upgrading components. Who knows, with enough perserverance, maybe someday I can quit my day job!
Below are two possible setups, Canon and Nikon, with a few lens alternatives. I priced components on Amazon, and tried to stick to items with mostly good reviews.
Canon kit:
400D body ($700), two 2GB CF cards ($70), Opteka battery grip w/2 batteries ($90), Canon RC1 Remote ($30), Tamron SP AF 17-50mm lens ($440), B+W circular polarizer filter ($90), Canon EF 100mm USM macro lens ($480), Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens ($560) - total price $2,460
Canon alternate lens 1:
Lose the wide and dedicated macro lenses, and go with either a Sigma AF 17-70mm f/2.8-4.5 DC Macro Autofocus Lens for $350 or a Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8-4.5 DC IF Macro Lens for $340. This would save almost $600, but might sacrifice too much macro and landscape quality.
Canon alternate lens 2:
Instead of the 70-300mm telephoto, get the Sigma 50-500mm f/4-6.3 EX DG HSM APO RF for $930. Massive reach, 800mm equivalent, but costs $370 more, and the optics might not be as good.
Nikon kit:
D80 body ($930), second 2GB SD card ($30), battery pack ($130), extra battery ($40), Nikon MC-DC1 Remote ($30), B+W circular polarizer filter ($80), Tamron Autofocus 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di II Macro Lens ($390), Nikon 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S VR Zoom Nikkor Lens ($510) - total price $2,140
Nikon alternate lens 1:
Get the non-VR (Vibration Reduction) version of the Nikkor 70-300mm telephoto lens. This would save $370, but the lack of VR might cause me to miss more shots.
Nikon alternate lens 2:
Get more telephoto range with the Tamron SP Autofocus 200-500mm F/5-6.3 Di LD IF, but at $880, this is another $370 more than the original telephoto.
Nikon alternate lens 3:
Ditch the Tamron 18-200mm lens and go with separate macro and wide lenses. Sigma's 105mm macro for $370 might be a good one. And for landscape shots, maybe their 15-30mm wide angle for $380, which I believe would be equivalent to 22-45mm on the D80. These dedicated lenses would add $380 to the original setup.
Anyways... I realize there are endless possibilities out there, and this is a 50-questions-in-1 type of post. But I would greatly appreciate any comments regarding personal experience with components mentioned, or any suggestions for other components I should consider, given my limited skill level and budget. Thanks!
OK, I'll take a stab at your Canon list. Your goal is to have a semi-professional outfit to photograph macro, landscapes and wildlife/birds and have relatively fast focusing lenses. Right? Scrap your entire Canon list. All of the lenses you list, except for the 100mm Canon macro lens, are relatively slow focusing lenses and the Rebel body itself is pretty slow focusing. Rather than trying to put together a mediocre (at best) equipment list and buying everything at once, choose a type of photography you would like to do the most, first, and outfit yourself for that type of photography.
There are very attractive prices on new and used Canon 30D cameras right now. This is a much better focusing and better built camera than the Rebel series cameras, even better than the 400D. Two megapixels aren't going to make that much of a difference. Don't mess with 3rd party accessories like the battery grip. Everybody I know who has used the Opteka battery grips have sold them and bought the OEM grips. And, "No", the Canon and Opteka grips are not made by the same company.
Start by shooting landscapes and macro. The Canon 100mm macro is a fine lens and has USM focusing motors. These are the motors that will give you fast autofocus. The other lenses you have listed don't have USM motors. The focusing speeds are mediocre at best. You could replace the Canon 100mm macro with Sigma's 150mm f 2.8 macro lens for just a few dollars more. Optically, this lens is outstanding and will give you a bit more working distance. As for landscapes, I'd recommend the Canon 17-40mm f 4L zooms lens. My copy is extremely sharp and is a great value.
Shoot for a while with the kit I've recommended and save your money for future additions to increase your versatility. Maybe purchase a new or used Canon 70-200 f 2.8L IS or f 4L IS lens down the road. Later, add one of the "supertelephotos" for wildlife and bird photography. Build your photography kit slowly by buying quality items one at a time rather than mediocre items all at once. You will produce better images and spend a whole lot less money in the long run. Buy mediocre cameras and lenses now and you are just going to end up replacing them sometime in the future with better quality items. Buying good equipment now keeps you from having to buy twice.
Posted by James Hersey on March 8, 2007 at 8:25 PM
I don’t know what you plan on shooting specifically but here is what I might consider. I would look for a non digital only lens meaning it will work with a full size sensor; this may be useful in the future. I like the 28 and 50mm standard lenses they are an unbeatable value for the image quality vs. cost. The 100mm macro is a great lens that I use often. I like my Canon 17-40L lens but it is the only zoom I use. My two most used lenses are the 300L- IS and the 24mm tilt/shift. You might just get the camera body and a lens or two and save the rest to see what you need. I would get a 77mm filter and adapter rings so it will fit adapt to about all the lenses you might use. As you shoot more you will get an idea of what you a lacking. You might just need to get an off camera flash which can make a big difference in your image possibilities. Then you can get what you need and save the cost of learning as I have learned over the years.
Posted by Richard Wong on March 8, 2007 at 9:13 PM
Rebel XT, Tamron 17-35mm f2.8 - f4, canon 400mm f5.6 L. $2000. Killer quality. forget the macro for now, unless you've got the cash.
Posted by Kent Staubus on March 8, 2007 at 10:11 PM
First, I'll pass along my philosophy on buying new stuff. The classic beginner's mistake is to focus on the camera body. This is wrong. Spend as little as possible on the camera. The important things are lenses and tripods. I bought a Nikon D80 back in November, and I have to say it's likely the best DSLR value out there at the moment. Photos are publishable--I've had a number of them published already (One in the current issue of TRAINS magazine even.) Now for lenses. The Nikon 18-55mm kit lens is cheap but excellent. FORGET THE TAMRON 18-200mm. For a long lens, look at the Sigma 50-500mm. Image quality is very good. Try to find one on Ebay if you can. Another thought is the Nikon 300mm f4 AF-S with a 1.4x TC. Pro quality! The one thing that's being left out is the tripod and head. Really, that is NOT a good place to skimp. I consider my tripod to be the most important part of my system. You might be best off buying D80, 18-55mm, 300mm f4 AF-S, used tripod, $280 AcraTech Ultimate ballhead, polarizer, and a 2-stop HiTech ND grad plus Cokin P holder. You can save up for a 1.4x TC for later, such as the TCE14.
Oh, you can do macro also. Buy a Canon 500D (2 element) diopter for the 300mm lens. Yes, they work very well for macro use. Image quality is good and cost is somewhere around a hundred bucks. I have one.
The place you are really screwing up is your lens choice. You are trying to go cheap and that's wrong, wrong, wrong. I am 100% certain you will regret it. The package I mentioned above will certainly give you the quality you say you are after, and will be fairly flexible. The D80 is a very solid camera with an excellent viewfinder. The 300mm f4 lens is a real gem. The Nikon 18-55mm is greatly overlooked and excellent. All you need is a decent tripod and first class ballhead and you are ready to go.
--->Think system, not camera. First select your lenses, then find an inexpensive camera to stick on them.
I was in the same position as you, not too long ago. I bought the original digital Rebel along with the Canon 75-300 USM IS and 17-85 EF-S. Three years later, all that equipment is sitting on a shelf and collecting dust. The other recommendations are good - it would be wise decision to figure out what type of photography you want to concentrate on and get whatever quality equipment you can afford. One really good lens is better than two or three mediocre lenses, IMO. Unless you're on a fixed income, you will find a way to stretch your budget and buy some more equipment.
Ok, gotta throw in my 2 cents worth for Pentax. The K10D is an amazing body. Very well constructed and the hyper-program mode is better than manual for quick moving wildlife. The only hesitation would be lens availability. Right now there aren't a lot of bigger lenses for the Pentax worth getting. The FA J series is not up to par for wildlife. The Pentax DA series lenses are amazing quality and they have several new ones in the pipe for release soon. But for now 300mm is about the longest lens you can get outside of Sigma and Tamron. They do have up to 500mm available in Pentax mount but you might have to have it special ordered at your favorite camera store.
Posted by Toni Lankerd on March 9, 2007 at 9:54 AM
I second Liz's suggestion. You can get the K10D (shake reduction in the camera), an 18-55 mm lens, battery and charger, for around $900. Sigma lenses of any size work well with the Pentax digitals, including the 105mm macro, which I consider to be an excellent lens.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on March 9, 2007 at 10:13 AM
Before you get discouraged on the tone of the above messages, don't! It is good advice - go for the subject and lenses first. We have all been where you are and generally learned the hard way. Some of us, Tom, Kent (and myself) included, have been shooting for a long time, certainly before having the resources of the internet to ask advice and avoid costly mistakes. I know the above replies can sound a bit discouraging, but don't be.
Let's back up a step for a moment. What do you want to shoot? Maybe a better question would be what galleries do you spend the most time on here? If you have to pick *ONE* thing to shoot, what would it be?
There is some flexibility in equipment based on that. I own a 180 macro, because that is my primary interest. It is a good choice. But this same lens was also my primary landscape lens, simply because that is the way I see the world photographically. I say "was" because with the switch to a digital body with a 1.6 cropping factor, my 70-200 zoom has seen a lot more use around the 125 mm range. If I buy a full frame digital, the 180 macro will start to see a lot more landscape use again.
Would I recommend the purchase of a 180-200 mm macro as a landscape lens? Not at all! As a macro lens? Sure, if that is a primary interest. This works for me and may well be absolutely horrible advice for you.
Anyway, the point of the ramble here is that you are probably better off purchasing one or two quality lenses and then after using them for a while, deciding from there what your next purchase will be. It is hard to know, when you are first starting, to really know where your phtography will go.
Posted by William Brozy on March 9, 2007 at 11:35 AM
Besides all the above comments, which are spot on, a good tripod and a reliable ballhead are essentials! In a lifetime, you'll go thru multiple camera bodies but those two items will be with you thru it all! Another suggestion would be to pick up a 300/4. With extension, it proves to be an excellent close-up lens and with a teleconverter it's good for wildlife and birds.
Thank you all for the advice so far! I agree that it would be wiser to just get one or two high quality lenses to start off with. I will also stick with an OEM battery grip and look into a better ballhead for my tripod. I'm still weighing the specific lens and body options, and it will be a few weeks before I actually purchase anything, so if anyone has further suggestions, please keep them coming!
By the way, I actually enjoy the "you are screwing up" tone. I have thick skin and a good sense of humor. And no-holds-barred criticism from people that really know their stuff is part of what makes this site so great!
One more thing - macro interests me the most at this point, especially with spring right around the corner...
Posted by Tom Webster on March 9, 2007 at 12:10 PM
If your interest is in macro then that is what I would first outfit yourself for. Macro was my main interest for many, many years. I would definitely shy away from the Canon Rebel series of cameras for macro work. Macro will involve a lot of manual focusing. Rarely do you autofocus macro images. The viewfinder image in the Rebel series of cameras is just too small for effective focusing. Again, Canon 30Ds are available at very good prices, new or used. I have used the Tamron 90mm macro lens, the Canon 100mm macro lens, the Canon 180mm macro lens, the Sigma 180mm macro lens, and the Sigma 150mm macro lens through the years. I have finally settled on the Sigma 150mm f 2.8 macro lens. It's every bit as sharp as the Canon 180mm macro lens but weighs considerably less and costs far less, too.
Combine the Canon 30D dSLR with the Sigma 150mm macro lens, add some extension tubes, and a good used Canon 550ex flash and Kirk Macro Flash Bracket and you will have an extremely high quality and versatile macro outfit. Don't forget a good tripod and head, too.
Posted by Nathan Buck on March 9, 2007 at 12:50 PM
For macro I love the Sigma 180 macro. Besides going digital, this has been my most worthwhile photographic purchse. Kent is right though, you need a good tripod and head.
Nathan
Posted by Kent Staubus on March 10, 2007 at 9:36 AM
Nikon has two macro options you might be interested in. One is their legendary 105mm. It's one of the sharpest lenses every made. Just how sharp will depend on how solid your tripod and head is though. They have something new that's very interesting, too. A true macro lens with VR, their "steady shot" lens system. It's the updated 105mm. It looks to me to be the perfect lens for taking photos of insects such as butterflys etc. since you can get away without using a tripod in good light. http://tinyurl.com/26o7hx
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=8433&A=details&Q=&sku=424744&is=GREY&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation
Discussion
13 repliesI'm ready to upgrade from my "enthusiast" camera (Kodak Z612) and build a decent DSLR starter kit. I would like to keep it around $2,000, but I can stretch it a bit further if need be. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Requirements:
I'll probably need two or three lenses to cover macro, wide (landscape), and telephoto (wildlife/avian). I would like for the landscape lens to be 35mm equivalent or wider, and on this lens, maximum aperture isn't terribly important to me since I'll typically use a tripod and want a lot of DOF. As for the telephoto, I would like a somewhat fast lens, both in terms of aperture and focus, but I'll take what I can get without breaking the bank. On any lens, I would like for the optics to be sharp enough for high quality prints at 8x10, and hopefully up to 16x20 or larger if possible. Ideally I would like to get into photography semi-professionally in the near future, hopefully selling a few prints so I can start upgrading components. Who knows, with enough perserverance, maybe someday I can quit my day job!
Below are two possible setups, Canon and Nikon, with a few lens alternatives. I priced components on Amazon, and tried to stick to items with mostly good reviews.
Canon kit:
400D body ($700), two 2GB CF cards ($70), Opteka battery grip w/2 batteries ($90), Canon RC1 Remote ($30), Tamron SP AF 17-50mm lens ($440), B+W circular polarizer filter ($90), Canon EF 100mm USM macro lens ($480), Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens ($560) - total price $2,460
Canon alternate lens 1:
Lose the wide and dedicated macro lenses, and go with either a Sigma AF 17-70mm f/2.8-4.5 DC Macro Autofocus Lens for $350 or a Sigma 17-70mm f/2.8-4.5 DC IF Macro Lens for $340. This would save almost $600, but might sacrifice too much macro and landscape quality.
Canon alternate lens 2:
Instead of the 70-300mm telephoto, get the Sigma 50-500mm f/4-6.3 EX DG HSM APO RF for $930. Massive reach, 800mm equivalent, but costs $370 more, and the optics might not be as good.
Nikon kit:
D80 body ($930), second 2GB SD card ($30), battery pack ($130), extra battery ($40), Nikon MC-DC1 Remote ($30), B+W circular polarizer filter ($80), Tamron Autofocus 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di II Macro Lens ($390), Nikon 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S VR Zoom Nikkor Lens ($510) - total price $2,140
Nikon alternate lens 1:
Get the non-VR (Vibration Reduction) version of the Nikkor 70-300mm telephoto lens. This would save $370, but the lack of VR might cause me to miss more shots.
Nikon alternate lens 2:
Get more telephoto range with the Tamron SP Autofocus 200-500mm F/5-6.3 Di LD IF, but at $880, this is another $370 more than the original telephoto.
Nikon alternate lens 3:
Ditch the Tamron 18-200mm lens and go with separate macro and wide lenses. Sigma's 105mm macro for $370 might be a good one. And for landscape shots, maybe their 15-30mm wide angle for $380, which I believe would be equivalent to 22-45mm on the D80. These dedicated lenses would add $380 to the original setup.
Anyways... I realize there are endless possibilities out there, and this is a 50-questions-in-1 type of post. But I would greatly appreciate any comments regarding personal experience with components mentioned, or any suggestions for other components I should consider, given my limited skill level and budget. Thanks!
There are very attractive prices on new and used Canon 30D cameras right now. This is a much better focusing and better built camera than the Rebel series cameras, even better than the 400D. Two megapixels aren't going to make that much of a difference. Don't mess with 3rd party accessories like the battery grip. Everybody I know who has used the Opteka battery grips have sold them and bought the OEM grips. And, "No", the Canon and Opteka grips are not made by the same company.
Start by shooting landscapes and macro. The Canon 100mm macro is a fine lens and has USM focusing motors. These are the motors that will give you fast autofocus. The other lenses you have listed don't have USM motors. The focusing speeds are mediocre at best. You could replace the Canon 100mm macro with Sigma's 150mm f 2.8 macro lens for just a few dollars more. Optically, this lens is outstanding and will give you a bit more working distance. As for landscapes, I'd recommend the Canon 17-40mm f 4L zooms lens. My copy is extremely sharp and is a great value.
Shoot for a while with the kit I've recommended and save your money for future additions to increase your versatility. Maybe purchase a new or used Canon 70-200 f 2.8L IS or f 4L IS lens down the road. Later, add one of the "supertelephotos" for wildlife and bird photography. Build your photography kit slowly by buying quality items one at a time rather than mediocre items all at once. You will produce better images and spend a whole lot less money in the long run. Buy mediocre cameras and lenses now and you are just going to end up replacing them sometime in the future with better quality items. Buying good equipment now keeps you from having to buy twice.
Oh, you can do macro also. Buy a Canon 500D (2 element) diopter for the 300mm lens. Yes, they work very well for macro use. Image quality is good and cost is somewhere around a hundred bucks. I have one.
The place you are really screwing up is your lens choice. You are trying to go cheap and that's wrong, wrong, wrong. I am 100% certain you will regret it. The package I mentioned above will certainly give you the quality you say you are after, and will be fairly flexible. The D80 is a very solid camera with an excellent viewfinder. The 300mm f4 lens is a real gem. The Nikon 18-55mm is greatly overlooked and excellent. All you need is a decent tripod and first class ballhead and you are ready to go.
--->Think system, not camera. First select your lenses, then find an inexpensive camera to stick on them.
Kent in SD
I was in the same position as you, not too long ago. I bought the original digital Rebel along with the Canon 75-300 USM IS and 17-85 EF-S. Three years later, all that equipment is sitting on a shelf and collecting dust. The other recommendations are good - it would be wise decision to figure out what type of photography you want to concentrate on and get whatever quality equipment you can afford. One really good lens is better than two or three mediocre lenses, IMO. Unless you're on a fixed income, you will find a way to stretch your budget and buy some more equipment.
Jason
Let's back up a step for a moment. What do you want to shoot? Maybe a better question would be what galleries do you spend the most time on here? If you have to pick *ONE* thing to shoot, what would it be?
There is some flexibility in equipment based on that. I own a 180 macro, because that is my primary interest. It is a good choice. But this same lens was also my primary landscape lens, simply because that is the way I see the world photographically. I say "was" because with the switch to a digital body with a 1.6 cropping factor, my 70-200 zoom has seen a lot more use around the 125 mm range. If I buy a full frame digital, the 180 macro will start to see a lot more landscape use again.
Would I recommend the purchase of a 180-200 mm macro as a landscape lens? Not at all! As a macro lens? Sure, if that is a primary interest. This works for me and may well be absolutely horrible advice for you.
Anyway, the point of the ramble here is that you are probably better off purchasing one or two quality lenses and then after using them for a while, deciding from there what your next purchase will be. It is hard to know, when you are first starting, to really know where your phtography will go.
By the way, I actually enjoy the "you are screwing up" tone. I have thick skin and a good sense of humor. And no-holds-barred criticism from people that really know their stuff is part of what makes this site so great!
One more thing - macro interests me the most at this point, especially with spring right around the corner...
Combine the Canon 30D dSLR with the Sigma 150mm macro lens, add some extension tubes, and a good used Canon 550ex flash and Kirk Macro Flash Bracket and you will have an extremely high quality and versatile macro outfit. Don't forget a good tripod and head, too.
Nathan
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=8433&A=details&Q=&sku=424744&is=GREY&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation
Kent in SD