Posted by Bill Pelzmann on March 23, 2007 at 11:26 AM
I've now managed to trash the directories on two 1TB Western Digital MyBook Premium Edition II drives in the last 6 days. Since we have a lot of computer geeks in this forum, I thought someone might have an idea of what could be systematically corrupting directories. So far, no loss of data, just the wasted time of copying ~600 GB of files - TWICE.
WD's recommended solution - reformat the drives and start over.
These 1TB Western Digital drives were in a RAID 0 configuration running on Windows XP. They had Firewire 800 capability, but since none of the stores here had the Firewire 800 cards in stock, the drives were connected via an older Firewire 400 card.
No error messages occured while data was being copied. At all times, even now, the disk managment software claims the drives are "healthy". The drives were always shut down "safely".
It is certainly possible that I had the misfortune of grabbing two defective drives from the same assembly line, but after the second failure, after 3 days of use, I suspect there is something about my system configuration.
My current pet theory is that the Firewire 400 card could be the culprit. It is a PCMCIA card that was purchased ~ 4yrs ago, back in the days of Windows 98. Possibly the Windows XP drivers & this old card don't play well with the new RAID drive/software?
So, my third trip back to Best Buy. This time I'll make the exchange for two 500GB drives and stick with USB 2. Should I also avoid Western Digital? I hope I don't see another "Corrupted Directory" message for a LONG time.
I can't be of much help, other than saying that I use the WD 500GB MyBook Premium with XP and haven't had any problems.
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on March 23, 2007 at 1:32 PM
Thanks, Erik. I've been using the WD250GB MyBooks for the last year without a problem.
Posted by Mel Ladewig on March 23, 2007 at 2:36 PM
Bill, I think RAID 0 might be part of the problem. RAID 0 can accelerate write times, but I haven't seen that it significantly shortens read times enough that I would want to deal with the risks. Especially not on a drive that was used for backing up images. Anyways, if there are problems transferring data at the correct rate I would think that there would be a possibility to get the data incorrectly written on one of the disks, therefore corrupting both. If you have the ability to configure the drives as JBOD, it would be much safer as a backup disk IMO.
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on March 23, 2007 at 5:14 PM
Mel, I agree the RAID 0 could be a problem - just one more thing to go wrong. But this disk comes configured as RAID 0 and the only other option provided by the WD disk managment software is RAID 1. JBOD is not available.
This drive was intended to be my primary work drive - not a backup. The attraction of the disk was the 1TB size and the Firewire 800 speed. Two separate 500 GIG drives were actually cheaper, and, as you point out, probably less risk.
Posted by Les Barstow on March 23, 2007 at 5:26 PM
Bill,
These "1TB" drives are not, in fact, 1TB drives. They're paired 500MB drives set up in a RAID 0 (concatenated) configuration. Are you saying you're running a pair of 1TB drives using Windows software RAID 0? That might be an issue; RAID + RAID doesn't always play well.
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on March 23, 2007 at 6:32 PM
Les, you are correct the 1TB "dirve" is truly two 500 GIG drives in a single enclosure.
I am only running one RAID drive at a time. I returned the first drive after directory corruption and exchanged it for a second identical drive, which also failed with directory corruption. My hope was that I just had a defective disk, but the second identical failure suggests some kind of software/driver/configuration issue.
It's good to know that RAID + RAID may not play well.
Thanks.
Posted by Les Barstow on March 23, 2007 at 6:38 PM
Okay; sorry to hear, though. I'd go with a pair of 500MB drives myself. If the RAID hardware goes, you may not be able to recover any data; with the paired 500MB drives, if one drive goes you'll only have half a problem and if necessary you can probably recover the data off the dead drive with a data recovery service, too.
Posted by Mel Ladewig on March 23, 2007 at 6:41 PM
That could be the key. If you are running RAID applications in Windows and the WD software, that could be your issue. Both pieces of software could be chopping the data and the data is getting corrupted.
I would really try to call WD and see if you can either split the drives into 2 separate storage devices or 1 JBOD array somehow. I think this will make life much easier for you.
Mel-
Posted by Scott Borger on March 23, 2007 at 6:59 PM
Bill, from what I am hearing, I'd say that you're trying to run 2-3 RAID systems at once. You have 2 external hardware RAID systems (each 1TB drive probably has a hardware RAID controller in it to combine 2x500GB disks). Are you using software RAID as well? If so, this adds a 3rd RAID component. That said, you're at least 2 to 4 times more likely to crash your system (depending on whether you have a striped, mirrored or concatenated RAID system), and it will run way slower due to the external drives and multiple RAID structure. Be sure to keep good backups while you're working through the bugs.
If you want fast external hard drives that perform like internal drives (thus allowing for a lossless RAID setup), eSATA is the way to go. The only difference between internal drives and eSATA (external SATA drives) drives is the length of the SATA cable and the physical location of the drive. You are limited to the number of SATA connections on your motherboard. Most computers have at least two of them, but some computers have 4 or more. Using internal SATA drives or external eSATA drives eliminate the loss in performance due to an external RAID system using firewire.
If it will be of any help, I will describe how I set up my RAID system to get increased performance and “3x grandfather” backup, using 4 internal hard drives and 2 external hard drives. You already have at least 4 drives if you have 2 external 1TB drives. If you wanted even more backup, you could always add external drives (as non-RAID drives). I use a MacPro, but the concept is the same for a PC. I use the software RAID that is built into the Mac OSX operating system, but I imagine that there is good RAID software for PCs as well. My configuration is as follows:
Hard Drive #1: 250GB SATA II, 3GB/s, 7200rpm hard drive
Hard Drive #2: 250GB SATA II, 3GB/s, 7200rpm hard drive
Hard Drive #3: 500GB SATA II, 3GB/s, 7200rpm hard drive (not used in RAID)
Hard Drive #4: 500GB SATA II, 3GB/s, 7200rpm hard drive (not used in RAID)
Hard Drive #5: 500GB external firewire backup (not used in RAID)
Hard Drive #6: 500GB offsite external firewire backup (not used in RAID)
Hard Drives 1 and 2 are combined as a striped software RAID. The result is a 25% performance gain and a “500GB” main hard drive. Hard drives 3-6 are not used in the RAID system. Rather, I have a software program that automatically updates hard drive #3 on a nightly basis, hard drive #4 on a weekly basis, and hard drive #5 is connected via firewire and updates every two weeks. Hard drive #6 is an external firewire drive and is stored offsite (in case of theft or fire) and updated regularly.
Worst case scenario (with respect to data loss): I lose 1 day of work/files (if I happened to have used the computer the day before it crashed). Because of this, I never delete my memory cards until the next day. All of my backups are formatted as bootable drives. If anything goes wrong, I can literally drag and drop the entire system onto a new hard drive. (internal or external firewire) If 250GB/500GB drives are too small, you could use 750GB drives and more external backups (as non RAID drives). If you only have 2 SATA connections on your mother board, you could use two internal SATA drives in a striped or concatenated RAID setup and use any number of external hard drives as non-RAID backups (if they backup when you’re sleeping, speed is a non issue). I don’t know if PC’s have seamless bootable drives like Macs. Regardless, if your system goes down, you’re going to have to rebuild it using a back up anyway.
Just my two cents (ok, maybe 3 cents)…hope you get the problems solved. If you are able to return the 2 1TB drives, you will probably have enough money to set up a similar system. If I can be of further assistance, email me.
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on March 23, 2007 at 8:15 PM
Scott, the system you describe looks very robust., much more automated than what I am trying to set up.
Let me clear up some confusion.
I am not trying to run two 1-TB drives.
One drive crashed - it was returned and REPLACED with an identical drive.
I thought I had a relatively simple configuration:
1 TB, RAID 0 - Firewire 800 (The only RAID software was supplied by WD - no other RAID software in windows - the disk came preconfigured as RAID 0) The 1 TB enclosure actually contains two 500 GIG drives managed with the RAID 0 config.
Planned backup was manual to four 250 GIG external, USB-2 drives - NO RAID
A second backup copy will be on two 500 GIG external, USB-2 drives.- NO RAID
At this point I just plan to exchange the 1-TB drive for two 500 GIG external drives and live with my image files spread across two separate drives. Lightroom can handle that.
Posted by Scott Borger on March 25, 2007 at 6:54 PM
C'mon James. "It's so easy a caveman could do it." Bill, thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression that you were running both RAIDs at once. Best of luck in problem solving.
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on March 26, 2007 at 9:32 PM
James - my only "formal" computer programming education used those marvelous IBM punch cards. I now have a beard, so I probably should let my hair grow longer and apply for a job on that commercial
Scott, I returned the 2nd corrupted drive for 2 external 500 GB USB drives. These have been loaded and are running fine.... at least they've made it past the 3rd day.
Discussion
13 repliesWD's recommended solution - reformat the drives and start over.
These 1TB Western Digital drives were in a RAID 0 configuration running on Windows XP. They had Firewire 800 capability, but since none of the stores here had the Firewire 800 cards in stock, the drives were connected via an older Firewire 400 card.
No error messages occured while data was being copied. At all times, even now, the disk managment software claims the drives are "healthy". The drives were always shut down "safely".
It is certainly possible that I had the misfortune of grabbing two defective drives from the same assembly line, but after the second failure, after 3 days of use, I suspect there is something about my system configuration.
My current pet theory is that the Firewire 400 card could be the culprit. It is a PCMCIA card that was purchased ~ 4yrs ago, back in the days of Windows 98. Possibly the Windows XP drivers & this old card don't play well with the new RAID drive/software?
So, my third trip back to Best Buy. This time I'll make the exchange for two 500GB drives and stick with USB 2. Should I also avoid Western Digital?
This drive was intended to be my primary work drive - not a backup. The attraction of the disk was the 1TB size and the Firewire 800 speed. Two separate 500 GIG drives were actually cheaper, and, as you point out, probably less risk.
These "1TB" drives are not, in fact, 1TB drives. They're paired 500MB drives set up in a RAID 0 (concatenated) configuration. Are you saying you're running a pair of 1TB drives using Windows software RAID 0? That might be an issue; RAID + RAID doesn't always play well.
I am only running one RAID drive at a time. I returned the first drive after directory corruption and exchanged it for a second identical drive, which also failed with directory corruption. My hope was that I just had a defective disk, but the second identical failure suggests some kind of software/driver/configuration issue.
It's good to know that RAID + RAID may not play well.
Thanks.
I would really try to call WD and see if you can either split the drives into 2 separate storage devices or 1 JBOD array somehow. I think this will make life much easier for you.
Mel-
If you want fast external hard drives that perform like internal drives (thus allowing for a lossless RAID setup), eSATA is the way to go. The only difference between internal drives and eSATA (external SATA drives) drives is the length of the SATA cable and the physical location of the drive. You are limited to the number of SATA connections on your motherboard. Most computers have at least two of them, but some computers have 4 or more. Using internal SATA drives or external eSATA drives eliminate the loss in performance due to an external RAID system using firewire.
If it will be of any help, I will describe how I set up my RAID system to get increased performance and “3x grandfather” backup, using 4 internal hard drives and 2 external hard drives. You already have at least 4 drives if you have 2 external 1TB drives. If you wanted even more backup, you could always add external drives (as non-RAID drives). I use a MacPro, but the concept is the same for a PC. I use the software RAID that is built into the Mac OSX operating system, but I imagine that there is good RAID software for PCs as well. My configuration is as follows:
Hard Drive #1: 250GB SATA II, 3GB/s, 7200rpm hard drive
Hard Drive #2: 250GB SATA II, 3GB/s, 7200rpm hard drive
Hard Drive #3: 500GB SATA II, 3GB/s, 7200rpm hard drive (not used in RAID)
Hard Drive #4: 500GB SATA II, 3GB/s, 7200rpm hard drive (not used in RAID)
Hard Drive #5: 500GB external firewire backup (not used in RAID)
Hard Drive #6: 500GB offsite external firewire backup (not used in RAID)
Hard Drives 1 and 2 are combined as a striped software RAID. The result is a 25% performance gain and a “500GB” main hard drive. Hard drives 3-6 are not used in the RAID system. Rather, I have a software program that automatically updates hard drive #3 on a nightly basis, hard drive #4 on a weekly basis, and hard drive #5 is connected via firewire and updates every two weeks. Hard drive #6 is an external firewire drive and is stored offsite (in case of theft or fire) and updated regularly.
Worst case scenario (with respect to data loss): I lose 1 day of work/files (if I happened to have used the computer the day before it crashed). Because of this, I never delete my memory cards until the next day. All of my backups are formatted as bootable drives. If anything goes wrong, I can literally drag and drop the entire system onto a new hard drive. (internal or external firewire) If 250GB/500GB drives are too small, you could use 750GB drives and more external backups (as non RAID drives). If you only have 2 SATA connections on your mother board, you could use two internal SATA drives in a striped or concatenated RAID setup and use any number of external hard drives as non-RAID backups (if they backup when you’re sleeping, speed is a non issue). I don’t know if PC’s have seamless bootable drives like Macs. Regardless, if your system goes down, you’re going to have to rebuild it using a back up anyway.
Just my two cents (ok, maybe 3 cents)…hope you get the problems solved. If you are able to return the 2 1TB drives, you will probably have enough money to set up a similar system. If I can be of further assistance, email me.
Let me clear up some confusion.
I am not trying to run two 1-TB drives.
One drive crashed - it was returned and REPLACED with an identical drive.
I thought I had a relatively simple configuration:
1 TB, RAID 0 - Firewire 800 (The only RAID software was supplied by WD - no other RAID software in windows - the disk came preconfigured as RAID 0) The 1 TB enclosure actually contains two 500 GIG drives managed with the RAID 0 config.
Planned backup was manual to four 250 GIG external, USB-2 drives - NO RAID
A second backup copy will be on two 500 GIG external, USB-2 drives.- NO RAID
At this point I just plan to exchange the 1-TB drive for two 500 GIG external drives and live with my image files spread across two separate drives. Lightroom can handle that.
Thanks for all the suggestions.
Scott, I returned the 2nd corrupted drive for 2 external 500 GB USB drives. These have been loaded and are running fine.... at least they've made it past the 3rd day.