Posted by David Marotta on March 31, 2007 at 6:39 PM
What I'm seeing is more praise and comments to those who have already achieved a point of excellence in their photography skills and not enough comments and critique to those who need it most. I see picture after picture with numerous views and only a comment or two at best, yet, it's quite obvious that the person who took the picture could use some constructive criticism. I know I've gotten lots of tips from many a viewer and I do appreciate those people taking the time to comment & critique. Bottom line, lets see more of the Professional/Advanced photographers helping those of us who need a tip or two.
Posted by Tom Webster on March 31, 2007 at 7:51 PM
David, this is a topic that comes up quite often and I know is frustrating to many of the members. Unfortunately, it's one of those "You can't lead a horse to water and make him drink," sort of topics. With the limited amount of time I have to post images and replies I have simply adopted the practice of commenting on the last 10 posts that were posted when I submit my own image for comments. I'm sure (I hope I'm not speaking out of turn for others) that if you want to solicit comments from certain individuals you might try emailing those individuals directly. I know that I would respond to a direct email when time permits and I'm willing to bet others would too.
I find that the NPN 'celebrities' and those who are most respected here are the ones that both produce great images, and provide the most worthwhile feedback. I wouldn't necessarily knock the 'pros' ... but I do otherwise know what you mean. I personally think you grow faster by seriously critiquing others and learning therefrom...
I try to provide constructive critiques where I think I can be of assistance, or pinpoint specific problems. Sometimes that's hard...
BUT IN ALL honesty, I'm alot more willing to help someone with a high post post to comment RATIO that someone not giving back and helping the community grow...and the problem with that philosophy is that I remember as a newby it was a bit intimidating to leave critiques within a seasoned community. Anyone else feel this way?
Posted by Marc Adamus on March 31, 2007 at 10:18 PM
>>"I personally think you grow faster by seriously critiquing others and learning therefrom"
You couldn't have said it better, Jim. This was absolutely true for myself and my development as a photographer. And it continues to this day. Despite time constraints, I probably comment on over a thousand photographs every year and often offer meaningful critique, especially when there was none given previously.
David - I'm a professional, my photos aren't perfect. The perfect image is always still out there. I can think of something I could change for the better in each and every image I have ever made. Take a look and try to find something you'd like to see done differently even if you like the image as a whole. Just as importantly, if you don't know how something was done - ask. I'll take the time to explain whenever I can.
You also raise some very valid points. There's absolutely no reason to go around back-slapping and giving little more than two emoticons toasting beers to an image that already has 40 comments, and this is especially true when the photo next to it has 2. But also consider that there are people here that honestly believe that critique should only be given when asked for - as if the "Image Critique Gallery" title and the "Art of Image Critique" section wasn't enough to clue them in that they should expect it. Still, I often feel like I'm walking a fine line when offering critiques - trying not to come accross as condencending to the photographer and confrontationally to other commenters, while trying to be as constructive as possible. I applaud individuals like yourself with an open mind to learn and accept well-intentioned critiques. If I knew everyone had such a mindset, I might tell people what I really think
Lastly, might I add that it would be in everyone's best interest to provide the viewers with as much information as possible about your images including techniques, what you were trying to convey, and any specific questions you have to encourage discussion. I've seen some members go as far as to slap a bold "brutally honest critiques requested" on thier images, in which case I let em' have it
I don't have enough time to frequently peruse the image critique forums. Becuase I don't leave a lot of commnets, I feel that I haven't earned the privelege of having my own photos critiqued. So I don't post images very often. When I do want to post a picture, I try to comment on a number of pictures beforehand, until I feel that have earned the right to post.
I've noticed this: Good images will garner praise; Flawed images will garner critiques; Ho-hum images don't get a lot of response one way or the other..
I see an image from time to time that just doesn't work for me, but I can't identify a particular problem with it. I can't say what the photographer could have done to make it better. So rather than leave an unconstructive criticism, I say nothing. I expect that I'm not alone in this. If a photographer posts a picture that doesn't get comments, then he doesn't learn specifically what's wrong with it, but he does learn that it isn't a successful image, at least in the eyes of his fellow NPNers.
One of my recent images went to 98 before a brave soul stated her opinion. This definitely is non-productive and a negative comment would have been much more helpful, rather than silence. I have forums that I do well in and those in which I'm struggling and could definitely use constructive critiques. Personally I feel if I accept the praise, I should be able to accept negative opinions in good spirit as well. If a person only gives praise, how can you know that they truly mean it.
Everyone, at any stage in development, has an opinion and should give it, and give it often.
Posted by Richard Wong on April 1, 2007 at 12:07 AM
I totally agree with Marc. If I was sure that the person wouldn't flip out at me telling them that I don't like the image or if what I don't like might sound harsh then I will. If they are the defensive type or I don't know enough about how they might react then I either compliment their good images or I take a pass. I also don't like it when I see someone comes here new with 10 posts and only comments on their own images. That is selfish and a waste of time to comment on those people. If you have time to work on your images and post them, then you have time to comment on a few others images in the meantime. I enjoy critiquing people's images. at one point I had something like a 2 posts to 200 comment ratio. That might be an extreme case, but I believe that you should comment more than the amount of posts you make especially considering you are only allowed one post per gallery every 24 hours.
Posted by David Marotta on April 1, 2007 at 12:27 AM
There's been a lot of very good points made here. I'm glad to see the various points of view. All worthy in their own respect. I, myself, am trying to comment and critique on a 4 to 1 post ratio. Thanks to all of you for well made comments and points of view.
Great points by all. As Tom said, this is a common "problem" with every image critique forum I have ever seen or participated on. And the bigger/busier they are, the more obvious the situation becomes.
I have come to believe that there is no "technical" solution to this, such as the much-loved/much-hated photo rating by number system or requiring a certain number of critiques before one is allowed to post a photo. It really takes much time and consideration to offer useful critique to those "ho-hum" photos. That said, I'm always open to ideas on "technical solutions" to "dynamics of human discourse" problems and usually have some harebrained scheme in mind I'd like to try.
As a new member and novice, I’m very hesitant to post a critique and at this point, will be more likely to post praise. The photo quality on this site is very high. I do have lots of questions so you can expect those.
In college back in 1973, I took a beginning photography class. Every Friday was critique day and it was brutal. Not for the thinned skin and though it didn’t happen in my class, I heard of people leaving the room in tears in some of the other classes.
At any rate, I’m my own worst critic and I can find flaws in any photo I’ve taken. And after that class, I’m not surprised to hear it from others.
I do it like Buck: there are some images that do not appeal to me,and sometimes the only honest critique would be that I dont like it because there is just so much missing in an aesthetic and compositorial sense (still a subjective thing) so that I don't write anything. I maybe should adress these issues, but I am afraid that I would be perceived as arrogant, cocky or offensive and hence I remain silent. Sometimes I also feel like that I am not the one who should judge others and out of humbleness I don't comment.
Then there are also beautiful images that are nice to look at, with technical excellence but without any innovation or creativity. Something straight from the composition-handbook. I do not comment on them most of the time for similar reasons.
I rather say nothing instead of something negative because I do not want to imply that I would have done better given same location&time of day - which is not the case. Some images are technically outstanding and I would NOT be able to deliver the same technical quality, and probably I would also NOT be able to come up with something more innovative.
Then there are the celebrity-photographers and they are celebrities for a reason. They have good work and their images stir emotions and have impact. Most of the time I know what I like and can put it into words.
Then there are images that show effort and creative approach, and also appeal. But something that might have been done better and if I can express it, I do it.
For the ratio of posting an image/commenting: Since I am not a member, I am only allowed to post once a week. I guess that I give at least 20 comments each week before I post and I really try to comment as much as possible, if time and state of mind permits.
After all, I am very "satisfied" with the community here, I can see that especially the mentioned celebreties are the ones that post on less spectacular and improvable images. I really appreciaty the encouragement they give, not only to me, but also to others, not-so-advanced photographers. That's why I feel very comfortable here.
Oh yes, and finally what I do is that although the images I post here are my "best work" , I mostly point out something that I consider as their weak spot - to encourage the commenters to comment on this without having to fear that I might be dissapointed or surprised that such an issue is addressed.
Obviously this is a topic near and dear to all of us. We all want to know what others think of our images both positive and negative. If this wasn't true we wouldn't be here.
I have to admit to a certain amount of disappointment when I post an image that gets only a few comments. Conversely, I get rather pumped by getting a lot of responses to an image. But as I reflect on the time I've been part of NPN and what I have learned here, I see that the critiques I've received have been a very minor part of my experience. For me the largest part of what I get from these forums is looking at other photographer's work, critiquing it to myself and then comparing my thoughts with how others feel about the same image. I think I learn as much or more from this as from the critiques of my own images. The bonus is that I can benefit from dozens of images per day. Further, they are images that may be far different than anything I might make myself, potentially generating a new avenue for my own development as a photographer. And of course, regardless of the comments and critiques I read here, the quality of the work in these forums is incredible and a constant challenge to go out and improve.
Although the forums do occasionally seem unbalanced, with images that could obviously benefit from serious suggestions for improvement getting few or none while a near perfect image by an experienced professional may get lots of beer toasts, I am extrememly happy that I found NPN and would recommend it to anyone. And as long as I'm sounding sappy, thanks to all of you that particpate and make it such a great place to learn and grow.
A good discussion! I like Tom's approach and try to do as well but it is much easier for me since I mainly post in the Flora gallery...there's just not as many images posted. (Though I must say the volume has increased even there and there are some outstanding images in that gallery)
I started a related discussion regarding the thumbnail presentation and what makes people click for a better look. I think some of the responses in that discussion apply here as well. This is much more of a community-style website and people seem to relate to each other here much more than some of the other photography websites. There is that sense of giving back to the community as we leave comment and/or a critique and while I have been around for only a short while here, I tend to avoid commenting on images when I see a photographer doesn't contribute with his/her own comments on other people's work.
I also want to add that many of the professional/advanced photographers are consistently taking the time to critique images around here. I've certainly benefited from them. I actually think it's the rest of us that need to "step up" a bit more in this area. With time being limited for all of us, I think the guideline provided, "five comments left for every image posted" is a good start. I know some of us do even more when possible.
I also think we can improve the quality of our critiques. I've received (and given) the toasting beers emoticons and realize that while we all like those, it isn't a critique nor really a comment.
I think Jim is very correct about learning from critiquing images and that just contributes to the whole give and take environment. Just my 2 cents!
Posted by Dan Borzynski on April 1, 2007 at 11:15 PM
I'll try to look at every image on the macro and floral galleries, and for images that really, really appeal to me, those I'll award the toasting beers.
Otherwise, usually I try to go to the images that have 0 or 1 comments on them, to say something. Those tend to be the new people here, rather than the "stars". I'll try to say something on those, and hopefully something useful to them. It can be hard at times, though, especially if an image has a lot of problems (rare!) or the image just doesn't appeal to me. You need to be able to encourage people and at the same time, not try to get them to take your picture.
Part of the problem is that I think most of us here are basically nice people, unlike some other boards I have been on. We really don't want to say something negative about another person's image. It is hard to tell someone you don't like their photo, and there is a fine line between suggesting how to improve a photo vs telling someone what you did wrong. Since for the most part we don't know each other, we don't know how something will be taken and would rather not say anything at all.
But for people who clearly have been here for a while, I have no problem being a lot more negative about an image. At least in those cases, I am fairly sure the recipient won't be offended. For one person in particular I am real-life friends with, I know he doesn't post what he considers his best material here, simply because the feedback is far more important to him than the oohs, aahs and 's.
Posted by David Marotta on April 2, 2007 at 12:41 AM
I hope this topic will encourage all of us, even the untrained eye to venture into a comment or critique. By reading what the pros and advanced have written, then we too can learn from reading and noticing what they're referring to. Whether it be BG, perch, crop, detail, color, exposure, lighting, or composition, we can learn by observing.
It has provided me with an opportunity to really think about both posting critiques and the comments I have received.
When I post a photo, I attempt to critique at least one image in each category. That way I see many different styles and types of photos from Avian to Macro and in between.
Yes, sometimes there is a photo that I honestly don't know how to react to, and my assignment to me is to find something to say. Far easier said than done.
I know in the space of three months I've learned--a lot, from critiques I have received and images I have reviewed and to which I have responded. I've also learned a great deal because I'm shooting on a more regular basis.
I'll say thank you to all of the folks who have viewed my work and made suggestions.
Again, David, great topic. I'm glad you posted it.
In response to the original question, I think it is important to separate our opinion of our own work from the critique that others can make about our work.
In the field, it is best to follow a "checklist" so to speak, a list that details aspects of the image that we are particularly concerned with. As time goes by, this list will change. Certain things that were of high concern to us at one time will become second nature. In turn, new aspects that we had not paid attention to previously will become important.
For this reason, making a list of "what to watch out for" is challenging. This list will be different for different photographers at different levels of knowledge and achievement. We could, however, make lists geared towards specific levels of knowledge, such as beginners, advanced, intermediate and so on, but even then, this will not take into account personal goals, vision and personal style.
On the subject of the audience's critique it is also important to mention that most critiques are based on the perspective of the responding audience. In other words, we look in the work of others for the same things we look for in our own work.
We are usually unable to see in the work of others what we are not seeing in our own work. For example, if we have a difficult time seeing tonal relationships in our work, or if we are not familiar with the concept of tonality control, it will most likely not be something we will comment on when talking about the work of other photographers.
This is a great topic! I would echo the comments of Keith Anderson, in that I DO very much appreciate comments on my photos. When I receive few comments, it forces me to honestly re-evaluate my work. Average photos are often viewed, but not often (enough) commented on.
When I get comments, I hope that they are critiques. Brutal critiques. My photography career is very young, and any critique helps.
As far as actually commenting and critiquing other's photos, I feel as may others do in that I am not a terribly accomplised photographer, and that any critical comment may be speaking from inexperience or subjectivity. The truth is that anyone who looks at enough art (and these photographs are art, without question) knows instinctively what they like and what they don't, and can be a critic. Putting these feelings into a coherent and constructive critique can be difficult, for several reasons. In my case, the biggest reasons for not posting are:
1. Inexperience. Like any learned technique, one must practice in order to get better. But practicing means making mistakes, and this can be difficult to stomach.
2. Fear. As I said, a comment that is not taken well can put off anyone, and I run the risk of hurting someone's feelings or exacting their ire towards me. Although I feel this forum is very open, I was taught to say nothing if you can't find anything nice to say.
3. Terminology. How can you make a reasonable critique if you don't know how to say it? Describing objective terms like exposure and focus can be easy, but most critques are subjective. I would refer anyone who wants to learn the basics of composition to the RadiantVista.com. Both the daily critique and the composition tutorial have helped me.
All of this being said, I appreciate the value of comments, and this is SO IMPORTANT to me that it deserves more than just an emoticon. So here is what I am going to do: I will look at every photo in the gallery I post to, and make an honest CRITIQUE of each one I view. Hopefully this will result in more critique of my own work - if you piss enough people off, someone will eventually say something!
Happily donning my flame-retardent underwear!
Posted by Jon Swanson on April 9, 2007 at 11:11 AM
One of the 'selling' points of joining is having your images critiqued to help you improve. I don't think that is possible unless someone is actually paid to do the task. You really can't force someone who pays to be a member to perform critiques. I tried to comment as much as possible. But when you don't get any feedback on your images, I lose interest. I just pop on here to peruse some images now as I think the critiquing is overrated. I've seen so many 'oversharpened -or undersharpened', etc. on the same post. How does that help someone....which is it?! Over or under? Or the continued stroking of 'stars' by their 'star' buddies....and the folks who want to be a star jump on the bandwagon with two beer cheers. Help out the guy that needs a little help...not the pro who posts a world beater image. That's why they are called pros! They are supposed to take images like that. We minnows are doing this for our own fun and enjoyment...we aren't going to take work away from ya. I believe a moderator should post on every picture in their forum. If they are moderating, they are looking at it anyhow....so why not? Kinda tough when a mod doesn't post for a couple months at a time, I know. But I can dream......
I am a 'moderator' to whom I assume you are directing these comments, so I guess I'll say a few things. First, and foremost, moderators in all galleries are volunteers who have been asked to do a few tasks in the galleries - mostly checking for adherence to the Posting Guidelines. When those guidelines are violated, we make corrections. That's it. There's nothing in the job description that says we have to comment on every post. That said, I've commented over 13,000 times since we changed to this gallery software in November 03. On average, I comment 40 times for every image that I post. Can you say that about yourself?
Let me tell you a little story. I'll bet you would call me one of the "Pros" that you thrashed in you post. Well, I've got news for you. I'm just another photographer who works hard to make good images. I work a 40 hour a week job, pay my bills, spend time with my family including a wife and teenager, do yard work, etc., etc. I do have a somewhat successful photography business too, but it's certainly not something that I could even consider doing full-time. I work VERY hard to make good images.
When I started on NPN a little over 5 years ago, I was in much the same situation as you. I was learning (still am today, always will be) to be a better bird photographer. My first few posts on NPN didn't generate very many comments either. But I didn't let that stop me. I kept working harder and harder to improve my images. Over time my images did improve. I've always been grateful for those comments that I did receive, no matter what. Each and every one is a gift of their time from someone.
I doubt anything I can say will help you change your feelings. I'm sorry about that. Just understand that photography is a journey that takes time, and no one is going to hand it to you on a platter. You'll have to work for it.
I hate to say it Bob, but you are not the moderator I was talking about. But if you feel the need to lambast me otherwise, go ahead. You do a wonderful job on the Avian forums. Esp. with your busy schedule. Your work is top notch. I guess you should learn what happens when you ass-u-me.
I did not trash the 'pros'. That may have been your interperetation. My opinion/perception is just that....mine. Like it or not. Just as I should yours.
Where did I say it was easy? Hmmm.. didn't see that in my previous post. Never said you didn't have to work for something. We all have/do. So I am ass-u-me -ing that you say I am lazy, want things quick, etc. Where this comes from I don't know. Perhaps you should read the post fully before replying next time.
Please feel free to email/PM me if you have something you would like to direct at me. I don't think the people of this forum are interested in a pissing match.
Jon, I think it's worth clarifying what the member dues are used for, which is to maintain the site - hosting, development, editorial content etc. More to the point - you are not paying for critique. Critique is provided voluntarily by all members to create value for themselves and for others.
I do agree that moderators can make a big difference in setting the tone and the culture. Personally I try to post something about every image in my gallery (can't always cover 100% of them, but I'm sure I'm in the high 90's) with no regard to who the poster is. I also noticed that galleries where the moderators are most active are also the ones that get the most critiques/views from other members. As Bob said - all this is done voluntarily by both members and moderators. Your fees don't pay anyone to provide feedback.
I guess I disagree with you that critique is one of the "selling points". Non-paying members are also allowed to post images and receive critiques. Those who choose to be members primarily pay to keep the lights on because they like having this community.
I believe a moderator should post on every picture in their forum.
Jon, with the level of activity in the NPN forums, that is simply not possible. Bob outlined the primary tasks of NPN moderators well. Perhaps some day when moderators are paid to do the job, we can ask that of them.
Ultimately it's the interaction with all fellow members that leads to growth. Like Bob said, for those just starting it's tough because there's so much to learn, but if they stick with it, eventually they grow in skill and their work receives the attention it deserves.
No doubt about it, it's difficult to get started when little advice is offered. But if the person posting the photo asks specific questions about the photo - as opposed to just posting it with little info - they will usually get good feedback. In this regard, image critique is a 2-way street and it's up to the person posting the photo to make the most of the experience.
I believe I am the lightning rod for alot of newbies. But I want to make this clear......I don't care about nor ever want to be a 'pro'. I don't care about attention for my photos. I learn from others locally...not here. I do photography for fun. People that know me know this. I was expressing my observations and ways to make the site better. It isn't up to me to make those decisions.
I've been pondering this topic for quite some time and glad the thread is not dead yet.
I too feel badly when many posts go with few or no comments. Personally, I try my best to actually seek these out and offer comments. I'm a firm believer in you get out of something what you put in to it. Or other cliche's like "what goes around, comes around," etc. etc.
Here, I can only offer my opinion and my outlook on critiques and forums such as this. I've settled here not necessarily because of the outstanding photography, but, as has been mentioned by many, the community of fine individuals with a common thread of photography.
I don't care what level of expertise or mastery you have achieved, everyone here is always learning. From a beginner to the seasoned pro, they're always striving to learn something new.
We must also understand that there as many different personalities visiting here as there are species of flowers or insects. Everyone is different, has different needs, goals, lifestyles. I think it's unfair to say that a "Pro" should kick in more than anyone else. And it's because we're all different that we should appreciate those who do take the time to comment on images, rather than criticise those who don't. By definition, a "pro" is someone who makes a living or a substantial portion of their income from their profession. There are some pros and advanced amatuers who are fantastic teachers and mentors. Within that same group, there are master technicians who are lousy teachers. Perhaps they're wonderful people in person but have a lousy online personality? Who knows unless you get to know someone at some personal level. We're all different.
Here are some things that I try and stick with and other things I would recommend for others.
1. I comment/critique a significantly more number of images than I post. I personally don't believe you have to be an expert to make a comment or critique an image here. Don't be shy or use the crutch that you don't feel "qualified." We all have opinions about what makes us like or dislike an image. The more you interact and comment on images, the more likely you are to receive feedback on your own posts.
2. I'm less likely to comment, or provide constructive criticism when the poster of an image doesn't ask for any comments or provide any useful comments about why they took the image, what were the circumstances, etc. If you don't ask for comments or help, you shouldn't expect anything.
For the beginner, I truly appreciate those who ask for help. An example: "Hi, my name is Bob and I'm new to photography. Just got my XXX dslr and I want to improve my composition. Please let me know what you think."
3. It's way to easy to give praise. I personally find it difficult to tell someone I don't like an image. I think many of us have the same issue and frankly, I think that explains a good portion of why some images don't get as many comments. But if someone takes the time to ask for input, I personally try and provide constructive criticism.
4. I would like to see more responses like "thanks for the comments everyone." I try to respond at least once within my own post to acknowledge those who have commented. I'm also sensitive to the fact that I'm not doing it just to bump the image to the top of the page... which to be honest, is one of the great things about this forum - no one's out here to keep their image on the front page, and I like that. On the other hand, there are way to many posts that provide valuable critiques that go unrecognized.
5. Don't be shy about dropping a private email to someone thanking them for their comments, or for that matter offering personal tips outside the forum.
Well, I enjoy writing, but can be my own worst enemy because I'll ramble. I'll end by saying that it "takes two to tango," and we all as individuals not only have a stake in continuing to make this a wonderful forum, but to improve not only our own photography, but the photography of those around us.
Others have already touched on most of the issues addressing your post. Being brutally honest in one's negative critiques in public, regardless of the subject of someone's creative effort whether that be some physical craft, artwork, writing, or photography etc, is likely to often result in considerable animosity from a fair number of such recipients. Yes there are situations where a novice is interested in some honest feedback in order to improve. And yes there are some, usually those who are already accomplished, that take most criticism well as long as it is true. However by far most images posted on this and many other forums are images that the postee thinks are one of their better images. One's that they expect other's will react positively to. There isn't much use posting images that the postee knows are flawed especially if such is below the quality they perceive to be at their level of whatever art. So for someone new to a board, it is likely to not be pleasant to read how someone has taken apart their creative efforts on a public forum where everyone else is exposed to the brutal reality of those flaws. On a forum they might have hoped to be a regular contributor to over the long term but now feel embarrased possibly. And for the provider of such critiques, they will soon find certain individuals that respond later with some level of un-objective vengefulness as well as a general coolness by others that don't wish to receive like treatment.
Another side of this is that those posting negative criticism are standing in the fire and need to be capable of taking the heat. In other words, though valid criticisms are likely to be taken in stride by the recipient, those that disagree with their assessments are likely to respond with at a minimum some debate and at worse emotional disagreements. Thus offering negative critique burdens the provider with the job of needing to articulate argumentation if taken to task. Thus a person that does so will quickly learn they must do so carefully lest end up looking foolish themselves in public.
These same things occur in the adult workplace where one has to judge the ideas, opinions, and designs of others about what to choose and how to do things. Being brutally honest is appropriate at times and more likely when one has primed the other person and then dealt with them one on one in private. In between in public are a range of tacts one may choose to deliver that can still provide some level of criticism without provoking much animosity or lack of community good will. ...David
Discussion
25 repliesI try to provide constructive critiques where I think I can be of assistance, or pinpoint specific problems. Sometimes that's hard...
BUT IN ALL honesty, I'm alot more willing to help someone with a high post post to comment RATIO that someone not giving back and helping the community grow...and the problem with that philosophy is that I remember as a newby it was a bit intimidating to leave critiques within a seasoned community. Anyone else feel this way?
You couldn't have said it better, Jim. This was absolutely true for myself and my development as a photographer. And it continues to this day. Despite time constraints, I probably comment on over a thousand photographs every year and often offer meaningful critique, especially when there was none given previously.
David - I'm a professional, my photos aren't perfect. The perfect image is always still out there. I can think of something I could change for the better in each and every image I have ever made. Take a look and try to find something you'd like to see done differently even if you like the image as a whole. Just as importantly, if you don't know how something was done - ask. I'll take the time to explain whenever I can.
You also raise some very valid points. There's absolutely no reason to go around back-slapping and giving little more than two emoticons toasting beers to an image that already has 40 comments, and this is especially true when the photo next to it has 2. But also consider that there are people here that honestly believe that critique should only be given when asked for - as if the "Image Critique Gallery" title and the "Art of Image Critique" section wasn't enough to clue them in that they should expect it. Still, I often feel like I'm walking a fine line when offering critiques - trying not to come accross as condencending to the photographer and confrontationally to other commenters, while trying to be as constructive as possible. I applaud individuals like yourself with an open mind to learn and accept well-intentioned critiques. If I knew everyone had such a mindset, I might tell people what I really think
Lastly, might I add that it would be in everyone's best interest to provide the viewers with as much information as possible about your images including techniques, what you were trying to convey, and any specific questions you have to encourage discussion. I've seen some members go as far as to slap a bold "brutally honest critiques requested" on thier images, in which case I let em' have it
I've noticed this: Good images will garner praise; Flawed images will garner critiques; Ho-hum images don't get a lot of response one way or the other..
I see an image from time to time that just doesn't work for me, but I can't identify a particular problem with it. I can't say what the photographer could have done to make it better. So rather than leave an unconstructive criticism, I say nothing. I expect that I'm not alone in this. If a photographer posts a picture that doesn't get comments, then he doesn't learn specifically what's wrong with it, but he does learn that it isn't a successful image, at least in the eyes of his fellow NPNers.
Everyone, at any stage in development, has an opinion and should give it, and give it often.
I have come to believe that there is no "technical" solution to this, such as the much-loved/much-hated photo rating by number system or requiring a certain number of critiques before one is allowed to post a photo. It really takes much time and consideration to offer useful critique to those "ho-hum" photos. That said, I'm always open to ideas on "technical solutions" to "dynamics of human discourse" problems and usually have some harebrained scheme in mind I'd like to try.
As a new member and novice, I’m very hesitant to post a critique and at this point, will be more likely to post praise. The photo quality on this site is very high. I do have lots of questions so you can expect those.
In college back in 1973, I took a beginning photography class. Every Friday was critique day and it was brutal. Not for the thinned skin and though it didn’t happen in my class, I heard of people leaving the room in tears in some of the other classes.
At any rate, I’m my own worst critic and I can find flaws in any photo I’ve taken. And after that class, I’m not surprised to hear it from others.
Then there are also beautiful images that are nice to look at, with technical excellence but without any innovation or creativity. Something straight from the composition-handbook. I do not comment on them most of the time for similar reasons.
I rather say nothing instead of something negative because I do not want to imply that I would have done better given same location&time of day - which is not the case. Some images are technically outstanding and I would NOT be able to deliver the same technical quality, and probably I would also NOT be able to come up with something more innovative.
Then there are the celebrity-photographers and they are celebrities for a reason. They have good work and their images stir emotions and have impact. Most of the time I know what I like and can put it into words.
Then there are images that show effort and creative approach, and also appeal. But something that might have been done better and if I can express it, I do it.
For the ratio of posting an image/commenting: Since I am not a member, I am only allowed to post once a week. I guess that I give at least 20 comments each week before I post and I really try to comment as much as possible, if time and state of mind permits.
After all, I am very "satisfied" with the community here, I can see that especially the mentioned celebreties are the ones that post on less spectacular and improvable images. I really appreciaty the encouragement they give, not only to me, but also to others, not-so-advanced photographers. That's why I feel very comfortable here.
Oh yes, and finally what I do is that although the images I post here are my "best work" , I mostly point out something that I consider as their weak spot - to encourage the commenters to comment on this without having to fear that I might be dissapointed or surprised that such an issue is addressed.
That's my strategy,
Regards, Dietrich
I have to admit to a certain amount of disappointment when I post an image that gets only a few comments. Conversely, I get rather pumped by getting a lot of responses to an image. But as I reflect on the time I've been part of NPN and what I have learned here, I see that the critiques I've received have been a very minor part of my experience. For me the largest part of what I get from these forums is looking at other photographer's work, critiquing it to myself and then comparing my thoughts with how others feel about the same image. I think I learn as much or more from this as from the critiques of my own images. The bonus is that I can benefit from dozens of images per day. Further, they are images that may be far different than anything I might make myself, potentially generating a new avenue for my own development as a photographer. And of course, regardless of the comments and critiques I read here, the quality of the work in these forums is incredible and a constant challenge to go out and improve.
Although the forums do occasionally seem unbalanced, with images that could obviously benefit from serious suggestions for improvement getting few or none while a near perfect image by an experienced professional may get lots of beer toasts, I am extrememly happy that I found NPN and would recommend it to anyone. And as long as I'm sounding sappy, thanks to all of you that particpate and make it such a great place to learn and grow.
A good discussion! I like Tom's approach and try to do as well but it is much easier for me since I mainly post in the Flora gallery...there's just not as many images posted. (Though I must say the volume has increased even there and there are some outstanding images in that gallery)
I started a related discussion regarding the thumbnail presentation and what makes people click for a better look. I think some of the responses in that discussion apply here as well. This is much more of a community-style website and people seem to relate to each other here much more than some of the other photography websites. There is that sense of giving back to the community as we leave comment and/or a critique and while I have been around for only a short while here, I tend to avoid commenting on images when I see a photographer doesn't contribute with his/her own comments on other people's work.
I also want to add that many of the professional/advanced photographers are consistently taking the time to critique images around here. I've certainly benefited from them. I actually think it's the rest of us that need to "step up" a bit more in this area. With time being limited for all of us, I think the guideline provided, "five comments left for every image posted" is a good start. I know some of us do even more when possible.
I also think we can improve the quality of our critiques. I've received (and given) the toasting beers emoticons and realize that while we all like those, it isn't a critique nor really a comment.
I think Jim is very correct about learning from critiquing images and that just contributes to the whole give and take environment. Just my 2 cents!
Otherwise, usually I try to go to the images that have 0 or 1 comments on them, to say something. Those tend to be the new people here, rather than the "stars". I'll try to say something on those, and hopefully something useful to them. It can be hard at times, though, especially if an image has a lot of problems (rare!) or the image just doesn't appeal to me. You need to be able to encourage people and at the same time, not try to get them to take your picture.
Part of the problem is that I think most of us here are basically nice people, unlike some other boards I have been on. We really don't want to say something negative about another person's image. It is hard to tell someone you don't like their photo, and there is a fine line between suggesting how to improve a photo vs telling someone what you did wrong. Since for the most part we don't know each other, we don't know how something will be taken and would rather not say anything at all.
But for people who clearly have been here for a while, I have no problem being a lot more negative about an image. At least in those cases, I am fairly sure the recipient won't be offended. For one person in particular I am real-life friends with, I know he doesn't post what he considers his best material here, simply because the feedback is far more important to him than the oohs, aahs and
I'm glad you posted this topic ...
It has provided me with an opportunity to really think about both posting critiques and the comments I have received.
When I post a photo, I attempt to critique at least one image in each category. That way I see many different styles and types of photos from Avian to Macro and in between.
Yes, sometimes there is a photo that I honestly don't know how to react to, and my assignment to me is to find something to say. Far easier said than done.
I know in the space of three months I've learned--a lot, from critiques I have received and images I have reviewed and to which I have responded. I've also learned a great deal because I'm shooting on a more regular basis.
I'll say thank you to all of the folks who have viewed my work and made suggestions.
Again, David, great topic. I'm glad you posted it.
Carol
http://hy-tec-training.com
In the field, it is best to follow a "checklist" so to speak, a list that details aspects of the image that we are particularly concerned with. As time goes by, this list will change. Certain things that were of high concern to us at one time will become second nature. In turn, new aspects that we had not paid attention to previously will become important.
For this reason, making a list of "what to watch out for" is challenging. This list will be different for different photographers at different levels of knowledge and achievement. We could, however, make lists geared towards specific levels of knowledge, such as beginners, advanced, intermediate and so on, but even then, this will not take into account personal goals, vision and personal style.
On the subject of the audience's critique it is also important to mention that most critiques are based on the perspective of the responding audience. In other words, we look in the work of others for the same things we look for in our own work.
We are usually unable to see in the work of others what we are not seeing in our own work. For example, if we have a difficult time seeing tonal relationships in our work, or if we are not familiar with the concept of tonality control, it will most likely not be something we will comment on when talking about the work of other photographers.
Alain
This is a great topic! I would echo the comments of Keith Anderson, in that I DO very much appreciate comments on my photos. When I receive few comments, it forces me to honestly re-evaluate my work. Average photos are often viewed, but not often (enough) commented on.
When I get comments, I hope that they are critiques. Brutal critiques. My photography career is very young, and any critique helps.
As far as actually commenting and critiquing other's photos, I feel as may others do in that I am not a terribly accomplised photographer, and that any critical comment may be speaking from inexperience or subjectivity. The truth is that anyone who looks at enough art (and these photographs are art, without question) knows instinctively what they like and what they don't, and can be a critic. Putting these feelings into a coherent and constructive critique can be difficult, for several reasons. In my case, the biggest reasons for not posting are:
1. Inexperience. Like any learned technique, one must practice in order to get better. But practicing means making mistakes, and this can be difficult to stomach.
2. Fear. As I said, a comment that is not taken well can put off anyone, and I run the risk of hurting someone's feelings or exacting their ire towards me. Although I feel this forum is very open, I was taught to say nothing if you can't find anything nice to say.
3. Terminology. How can you make a reasonable critique if you don't know how to say it? Describing objective terms like exposure and focus can be easy, but most critques are subjective. I would refer anyone who wants to learn the basics of composition to the RadiantVista.com. Both the daily critique and the composition tutorial have helped me.
All of this being said, I appreciate the value of comments, and this is SO IMPORTANT to me that it deserves more than just an emoticon. So here is what I am going to do: I will look at every photo in the gallery I post to, and make an honest CRITIQUE of each one I view. Hopefully this will result in more critique of my own work - if you piss enough people off, someone will eventually say something!
Happily donning my flame-retardent underwear!
I am a 'moderator' to whom I assume you are directing these comments, so I guess I'll say a few things. First, and foremost, moderators in all galleries are volunteers who have been asked to do a few tasks in the galleries - mostly checking for adherence to the Posting Guidelines. When those guidelines are violated, we make corrections. That's it. There's nothing in the job description that says we have to comment on every post. That said, I've commented over 13,000 times since we changed to this gallery software in November 03. On average, I comment 40 times for every image that I post. Can you say that about yourself?
Let me tell you a little story. I'll bet you would call me one of the "Pros" that you thrashed in you post. Well, I've got news for you. I'm just another photographer who works hard to make good images. I work a 40 hour a week job, pay my bills, spend time with my family including a wife and teenager, do yard work, etc., etc. I do have a somewhat successful photography business too, but it's certainly not something that I could even consider doing full-time. I work VERY hard to make good images.
When I started on NPN a little over 5 years ago, I was in much the same situation as you. I was learning (still am today, always will be) to be a better bird photographer. My first few posts on NPN didn't generate very many comments either. But I didn't let that stop me. I kept working harder and harder to improve my images. Over time my images did improve. I've always been grateful for those comments that I did receive, no matter what. Each and every one is a gift of their time from someone.
I doubt anything I can say will help you change your feelings. I'm sorry about that. Just understand that photography is a journey that takes time, and no one is going to hand it to you on a platter. You'll have to work for it.
I hate to say it Bob, but you are not the moderator I was talking about. But if you feel the need to lambast me otherwise, go ahead. You do a wonderful job on the Avian forums. Esp. with your busy schedule. Your work is top notch. I guess you should learn what happens when you ass-u-me.
I did not trash the 'pros'. That may have been your interperetation. My opinion/perception is just that....mine. Like it or not. Just as I should yours.
Where did I say it was easy? Hmmm.. didn't see that in my previous post. Never said you didn't have to work for something. We all have/do. So I am ass-u-me -ing that you say I am lazy, want things quick, etc. Where this comes from I don't know. Perhaps you should read the post fully before replying next time.
Please feel free to email/PM me if you have something you would like to direct at me. I don't think the people of this forum are interested in a pissing match.
I do agree that moderators can make a big difference in setting the tone and the culture. Personally I try to post something about every image in my gallery (can't always cover 100% of them, but I'm sure I'm in the high 90's) with no regard to who the poster is. I also noticed that galleries where the moderators are most active are also the ones that get the most critiques/views from other members. As Bob said - all this is done voluntarily by both members and moderators. Your fees don't pay anyone to provide feedback.
I guess I disagree with you that critique is one of the "selling points". Non-paying members are also allowed to post images and receive critiques. Those who choose to be members primarily pay to keep the lights on because they like having this community.
Guy
Jon, with the level of activity in the NPN forums, that is simply not possible. Bob outlined the primary tasks of NPN moderators well. Perhaps some day when moderators are paid to do the job, we can ask that of them.
Ultimately it's the interaction with all fellow members that leads to growth. Like Bob said, for those just starting it's tough because there's so much to learn, but if they stick with it, eventually they grow in skill and their work receives the attention it deserves.
No doubt about it, it's difficult to get started when little advice is offered. But if the person posting the photo asks specific questions about the photo - as opposed to just posting it with little info - they will usually get good feedback. In this regard, image critique is a 2-way street and it's up to the person posting the photo to make the most of the experience.
I've been pondering this topic for quite some time and glad the thread is not dead yet.
I too feel badly when many posts go with few or no comments. Personally, I try my best to actually seek these out and offer comments. I'm a firm believer in you get out of something what you put in to it. Or other cliche's like "what goes around, comes around," etc. etc.
Here, I can only offer my opinion and my outlook on critiques and forums such as this. I've settled here not necessarily because of the outstanding photography, but, as has been mentioned by many, the community of fine individuals with a common thread of photography.
I don't care what level of expertise or mastery you have achieved, everyone here is always learning. From a beginner to the seasoned pro, they're always striving to learn something new.
We must also understand that there as many different personalities visiting here as there are species of flowers or insects. Everyone is different, has different needs, goals, lifestyles. I think it's unfair to say that a "Pro" should kick in more than anyone else. And it's because we're all different that we should appreciate those who do take the time to comment on images, rather than criticise those who don't. By definition, a "pro" is someone who makes a living or a substantial portion of their income from their profession. There are some pros and advanced amatuers who are fantastic teachers and mentors. Within that same group, there are master technicians who are lousy teachers. Perhaps they're wonderful people in person but have a lousy online personality? Who knows unless you get to know someone at some personal level. We're all different.
Here are some things that I try and stick with and other things I would recommend for others.
1. I comment/critique a significantly more number of images than I post. I personally don't believe you have to be an expert to make a comment or critique an image here. Don't be shy or use the crutch that you don't feel "qualified." We all have opinions about what makes us like or dislike an image. The more you interact and comment on images, the more likely you are to receive feedback on your own posts.
2. I'm less likely to comment, or provide constructive criticism when the poster of an image doesn't ask for any comments or provide any useful comments about why they took the image, what were the circumstances, etc. If you don't ask for comments or help, you shouldn't expect anything.
For the beginner, I truly appreciate those who ask for help. An example: "Hi, my name is Bob and I'm new to photography. Just got my XXX dslr and I want to improve my composition. Please let me know what you think."
3. It's way to easy to give praise. I personally find it difficult to tell someone I don't like an image. I think many of us have the same issue and frankly, I think that explains a good portion of why some images don't get as many comments. But if someone takes the time to ask for input, I personally try and provide constructive criticism.
4. I would like to see more responses like "thanks for the comments everyone." I try to respond at least once within my own post to acknowledge those who have commented. I'm also sensitive to the fact that I'm not doing it just to bump the image to the top of the page... which to be honest, is one of the great things about this forum - no one's out here to keep their image on the front page, and I like that. On the other hand, there are way to many posts that provide valuable critiques that go unrecognized.
5. Don't be shy about dropping a private email to someone thanking them for their comments, or for that matter offering personal tips outside the forum.
Well, I enjoy writing, but can be my own worst enemy because I'll ramble. I'll end by saying that it "takes two to tango," and we all as individuals not only have a stake in continuing to make this a wonderful forum, but to improve not only our own photography, but the photography of those around us.
Lon
Others have already touched on most of the issues addressing your post. Being brutally honest in one's negative critiques in public, regardless of the subject of someone's creative effort whether that be some physical craft, artwork, writing, or photography etc, is likely to often result in considerable animosity from a fair number of such recipients. Yes there are situations where a novice is interested in some honest feedback in order to improve. And yes there are some, usually those who are already accomplished, that take most criticism well as long as it is true. However by far most images posted on this and many other forums are images that the postee thinks are one of their better images. One's that they expect other's will react positively to. There isn't much use posting images that the postee knows are flawed especially if such is below the quality they perceive to be at their level of whatever art. So for someone new to a board, it is likely to not be pleasant to read how someone has taken apart their creative efforts on a public forum where everyone else is exposed to the brutal reality of those flaws. On a forum they might have hoped to be a regular contributor to over the long term but now feel embarrased possibly. And for the provider of such critiques, they will soon find certain individuals that respond later with some level of un-objective vengefulness as well as a general coolness by others that don't wish to receive like treatment.
Another side of this is that those posting negative criticism are standing in the fire and need to be capable of taking the heat. In other words, though valid criticisms are likely to be taken in stride by the recipient, those that disagree with their assessments are likely to respond with at a minimum some debate and at worse emotional disagreements. Thus offering negative critique burdens the provider with the job of needing to articulate argumentation if taken to task. Thus a person that does so will quickly learn they must do so carefully lest end up looking foolish themselves in public.
These same things occur in the adult workplace where one has to judge the ideas, opinions, and designs of others about what to choose and how to do things. Being brutally honest is appropriate at times and more likely when one has primed the other person and then dealt with them one on one in private. In between in public are a range of tacts one may choose to deliver that can still provide some level of criticism without provoking much animosity or lack of community good will. ...David