Posted by Tom Nevesely on April 12, 2007 at 12:13 PM
Very well written Jim.
Posted by Carol Hyman on April 12, 2007 at 12:30 PM
What a thoughtful article, Jim.
I'm glad you posted it.
Even though I'm a relative newcomer to the NPN scene, I see one issue and I don't know how to address it. That issue is the person who posts 19 photos and has made only one comment. Now, I'm exaggerating ;^) however, what's the best protocol on addressing this problem? Perhaps these folks are reviewing the other published photos; perhaps not, but somehow we all need to learn that if we take the time to actually "write" down the words, we will learn even more than if we simply internalize our feelings. Not easy but if there's nothing else to do on this planet, we can all learn and grow as we paddle along.
Another thought occurs as I'm writing. We are all flattered if we are asked to explain something. So perhaps if a person is shy about making a comment on a photo, they could ask a question....
Yep, right on target, Jim. Quite frankly, I have learned a ton just reading the professional advice given to others by the members here. The critic is not only helping the photog who posted but also the other photogs who read the critique. I am also astounded at the lack of "blustery, huff and puff" critiques that are done only to show how smart the critic is. I've seen none on this site which I think is a tribute to the professionalism of the membership.
Posted by Wayne Rhodus on April 12, 2007 at 2:14 PM
Boy Jim, I think everything you said is dead on and very insightful. I have personally experienced each of the things you mention since arriving here in 2003. The ability to give curtious, subjective critique's is probably the most important skill to have on this site. And that ability is in abundance with NPN's members.
I personally learn more by evaluating another's image, formulating my opinion and commenting on their work. I always give at least one positive thought in each critique.
I admit that ego-stoking is certainly something enticing and drives many of us to post, particularly amateurs like myself. I have seen some recent success by being published and that success can be directly traced to the curtious critiques and knowledge gained here! I couldn't have done it without you all! Thanks!
P.S. I just yesterday pulled an image from Man & Nature that received no comments at all ... ironic you mentioned that.
Posted by Bill Chambers on April 12, 2007 at 2:21 PM
Super article Jim. I can only add one thing, and this is a selfish reason for commenting on others' images. I've discovered that I learn more from giving comments than I do from receiving them. Giving comments forces you to look more carefully at work, disassemble it if you will, to see what you like, don't like, what works and what doesn't; all of which goes into the memory cells and returns when you're looking through your viewfinder. You start critiqueing your own work BEFORE pressing the shutter release instead of afterwards.
Posted by David Senesac on April 12, 2007 at 2:49 PM
Jim, its good that you board moderators offer such essays.
First I would note that there are also images posted that receive one or a few comments where all comments are one liners without much substance beyond mild stroking. Although some here are likely to feel embarassed if a post receives no comments, that happens on other photography forums more frequently and ought not be taken by posters necessarily as relating to image quality. Maybe one reason that doesn't occur too often on this board is because images that have made their way down towards the bottom of the front page of display without receiving input, seem to provoke one of the more considerate members or moderators to go out of their way to post something. Maybe reflecting the concern you brought up that it may bother some posters possibly embarrassing them. It is true that probably a fair number of images that are "neither wonderful nor terrible" may not receive comments, however as was discussed in the recent thread there are many other reasons why members may not comment on someone's posts. Thus an image may have none or few comments some of which has little to do with the quality of an image.
On some forums, other images are posted so frequently that posts scroll off front pages so quickly that it causes many good images to quickly become out of sight and out of mind. Boards like this would be wise to temper the tendency of some individuals to post their images too frequently lest they contribute to too many posts that scroll off their front pages before the broader body of members can take a look. It is human nature that a majority of viewers will not bother to look beyond the front web page thread listing. There is a balance to be struck between too many image posts and too few that makes an image forum look stale and ignored.
"Even if we do not feel qualified to offer advice on how to improve a photo, simply stating why we like or dislike a photo is reason enough."
Those offering negative critiques without adequate tact, may enduce a rebuttle or explanation from the image poster. That in itself is a reason why the less experienced members ought to be careful about what and how they write negative responses. For some without much background to articulate a meaningful response, it is not surprising many may keep their viewpoints and feelings to themselves. However even a novice can offer a negative critique if they pose their input thoughtfully. That is something that you moderators might provide examples of. By stating one's personal competance about making an input like "I'm new to these techniques and haven't played around with them much so far..." is far better than coming off like an experienced person making a knowledgeable point. There is a tendency on many web forums to be terse. That is generally harmless when making a positive statement but negative statements ought to include a bit more as there is more chance they may be interpretted out of the context a responder intended. It isn't enough for someone to later write "well I meant so and so..." leaving it up to their audience to somehow guess what they might have been thinking. Responders need to be careful stating technical issues and parameters that more knowledgeable members are likely to refute. Generally experienced users in any enthusiast activity dislike technical statements of others that are wrong. For instance stating an image is so sharp that one can print a sharp image to some too large a size is certain to provoke a comment from some others. And a person's viewpoint when posed reflecting one's feeling or personal style or preferences will be taken with more understanding versus more rigid statements like "the composition is awkward..." that is likely to motivate the image poster to respond in some way if they don't agree with that rigid assessment. ...David
Posted by Lon Overacker on April 12, 2007 at 2:57 PM
This thread is of interest to me because I have resisted commenting on other people's photographs, not feeling expert enough. Thus I drew on the comment in Jim's article saying that at the very least a person can respond to a photograph by simply saying whether they like it or not, with the "not" offered as to how you might like it, if it was presented in just a slightly different way. I will add this effort to my weekly to-do list. I know I so much appreciate other people's commentary on the photos I have posted and I learn by leaps and bounds as a result of the input from this group..
Laurel, speaking for myself - I don't make images specifically for other photographers, so feedback from anyone is appreciated, regardless of their level of expertise. I want to know if my work has any aesthetic or emotional appeal and just about anyone is qualified to provide this type of information.
I suspect the same is true for most work posted here. Unless someone specifically asks a technical question, I'm sure they will appreciate any kind of feedback.
I recently joined this forum, and have begun posting images and offering as constructive compliments and critques as possible. I think I posted a few photographs before commenting too much on other people's work. I did this because I wanted people to know what type of work I did and that I was able to take criticism before giving it. I was of the perspective that it would be perceived a bit off color to make a lot of comments on other people's work without opening myself to criticism. Just my perspective at the beginning, but now I try and comment more than I post.
Great article Jim. I especially like your perspective on the "no comments". When I post an image and get no or very few comments I am most disappointed. I would rather have some one tell me some need for improvement than not comment at all.
Posted by Tom Webster on April 12, 2007 at 11:29 PM
Good article, Jim. Both of your articles on image critiques should be required reading before someone signs up!
Folks, it really doesn't take long to post a comment on an image. You don't have to write volumes. Some of the best critiques I've received have been "one liners" that cut straight to the point. If you like an image, say so, and say why. If you don't like an image, say so, and say why. It really doesn't matter if someone else has covered some of your points. Receiving duplicate reactions to an image helps reinforce what is good/bad about an image.
When I post comments on other photographer's images I don't even look at the other people's comments. I'll post my comment/critique first and then see what others have written. Good, bad, or indifferent, your comments/critiques do have value.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on April 13, 2007 at 6:18 AM
Tom said;
I'll post my comment/critique first and then see what others have written.
Good advice! I try to do the same, though I am often tempted to read the other comments first - which always have some effect on what I write.
Jim, thoughtful and valuable essay, as I'd expect.
To echo Guy's thoughts, when I post an image on the critique boards, which I don't do very often, I'm interested in what we all here as viewers think about the photo. I don't make images for or sell images to other photographers, but to "regular" people. Now, our members here all are photographers, of course, and of varying levels of experience, but we also all love to view photographs, with differences in what moves us. No one here or anywhere is unqualified to express how they respond to an image.
In most cases when I write a critique, I try to take off my photographer's hat and focus not on technical matters (unless the poster has made a specific inquiry), but on whether I am moved by the image — and why or why not. It just seems to me a more valuable form of input.
Jim, a great article. I actually comment a lot more than I post images. No real issue but time. Guy, I do think your comments were right on. I have my style and take photographs for myself. Comments are greatly appreciated but I most value the opportunity NPN gives me to look at other's images and comments that are made about them. This forum has helped me shortcut a lot of the learning curve in photography. Since I am primarily a landscape photographer the ESS forum gets most of my attention and it has some incredible talent. I am amazed each time I go through it at the quality of images there. Thanks for the article.
Discussion
18 repliesI'm glad you posted it.
Even though I'm a relative newcomer to the NPN scene, I see one issue and I don't know how to address it. That issue is the person who posts 19 photos and has made only one comment. Now, I'm exaggerating ;^) however, what's the best protocol on addressing this problem? Perhaps these folks are reviewing the other published photos; perhaps not, but somehow we all need to learn that if we take the time to actually "write" down the words, we will learn even more than if we simply internalize our feelings. Not easy but if there's nothing else to do on this planet, we can all learn and grow as we paddle along.
Another thought occurs as I'm writing. We are all flattered if we are asked to explain something. So perhaps if a person is shy about making a comment on a photo, they could ask a question....
Ciao ;^)
Carol Hyman
http://hy-tec-training.com
I personally learn more by evaluating another's image, formulating my opinion and commenting on their work. I always give at least one positive thought in each critique.
I admit that ego-stoking is certainly something enticing and drives many of us to post, particularly amateurs like myself. I have seen some recent success by being published and that success can be directly traced to the curtious critiques and knowledge gained here! I couldn't have done it without you all! Thanks!
P.S. I just yesterday pulled an image from Man & Nature that received no comments at all ... ironic you mentioned that.
First I would note that there are also images posted that receive one or a few comments where all comments are one liners without much substance beyond mild stroking. Although some here are likely to feel embarassed if a post receives no comments, that happens on other photography forums more frequently and ought not be taken by posters necessarily as relating to image quality. Maybe one reason that doesn't occur too often on this board is because images that have made their way down towards the bottom of the front page of display without receiving input, seem to provoke one of the more considerate members or moderators to go out of their way to post something. Maybe reflecting the concern you brought up that it may bother some posters possibly embarrassing them. It is true that probably a fair number of images that are "neither wonderful nor terrible" may not receive comments, however as was discussed in the recent thread there are many other reasons why members may not comment on someone's posts. Thus an image may have none or few comments some of which has little to do with the quality of an image.
On some forums, other images are posted so frequently that posts scroll off front pages so quickly that it causes many good images to quickly become out of sight and out of mind. Boards like this would be wise to temper the tendency of some individuals to post their images too frequently lest they contribute to too many posts that scroll off their front pages before the broader body of members can take a look. It is human nature that a majority of viewers will not bother to look beyond the front web page thread listing. There is a balance to be struck between too many image posts and too few that makes an image forum look stale and ignored.
"Even if we do not feel qualified to offer advice on how to improve a photo, simply stating why we like or dislike a photo is reason enough."
Those offering negative critiques without adequate tact, may enduce a rebuttle or explanation from the image poster. That in itself is a reason why the less experienced members ought to be careful about what and how they write negative responses. For some without much background to articulate a meaningful response, it is not surprising many may keep their viewpoints and feelings to themselves. However even a novice can offer a negative critique if they pose their input thoughtfully. That is something that you moderators might provide examples of. By stating one's personal competance about making an input like "I'm new to these techniques and haven't played around with them much so far..." is far better than coming off like an experienced person making a knowledgeable point. There is a tendency on many web forums to be terse. That is generally harmless when making a positive statement but negative statements ought to include a bit more as there is more chance they may be interpretted out of the context a responder intended. It isn't enough for someone to later write "well I meant so and so..." leaving it up to their audience to somehow guess what they might have been thinking. Responders need to be careful stating technical issues and parameters that more knowledgeable members are likely to refute. Generally experienced users in any enthusiast activity dislike technical statements of others that are wrong. For instance stating an image is so sharp that one can print a sharp image to some too large a size is certain to provoke a comment from some others. And a person's viewpoint when posed reflecting one's feeling or personal style or preferences will be taken with more understanding versus more rigid statements like "the composition is awkward..." that is likely to motivate the image poster to respond in some way if they don't agree with that rigid assessment. ...David
Lon
I suspect the same is true for most work posted here. Unless someone specifically asks a technical question, I'm sure they will appreciate any kind of feedback.
Guy
I recently joined this forum, and have begun posting images and offering as constructive compliments and critques as possible. I think I posted a few photographs before commenting too much on other people's work. I did this because I wanted people to know what type of work I did and that I was able to take criticism before giving it. I was of the perspective that it would be perceived a bit off color to make a lot of comments on other people's work without opening myself to criticism. Just my perspective at the beginning, but now I try and comment more than I post.
Folks, it really doesn't take long to post a comment on an image. You don't have to write volumes. Some of the best critiques I've received have been "one liners" that cut straight to the point. If you like an image, say so, and say why. If you don't like an image, say so, and say why. It really doesn't matter if someone else has covered some of your points. Receiving duplicate reactions to an image helps reinforce what is good/bad about an image.
When I post comments on other photographer's images I don't even look at the other people's comments. I'll post my comment/critique first and then see what others have written. Good, bad, or indifferent, your comments/critiques do have value.
Good advice! I try to do the same, though I am often tempted to read the other comments first - which always have some effect on what I write.
To echo Guy's thoughts, when I post an image on the critique boards, which I don't do very often, I'm interested in what we all here as viewers think about the photo. I don't make images for or sell images to other photographers, but to "regular" people. Now, our members here all are photographers, of course, and of varying levels of experience, but we also all love to view photographs, with differences in what moves us. No one here or anywhere is unqualified to express how they respond to an image.
In most cases when I write a critique, I try to take off my photographer's hat and focus not on technical matters (unless the poster has made a specific inquiry), but on whether I am moved by the image — and why or why not. It just seems to me a more valuable form of input.