Once upon a time many years ago there was this young fellow that got into nature photography. Some time later he had taken he thought some very good bird shots and packed up 20 slides and sent them off to Audubon Mag. Allmost by return mail he got his 20 slides back and a sort curt letter that if you read between the lines basily said "Please don`t plug up our mail box with this crap again, thankyou and go take up golf." He got hurt, then he got mad, and sometine that night he took a hard fresh look at his slides and tosed 19 in the trash. That single letter stayed on my desk for years. It did more to improve my photography than any other event. When we view our own work we bring our emotions and memories of that moment to that photo. Others who view it do not. A photo must stand on its own merits, it must raise emotion in the viewer. Some great photos are the product of dumm luck, most great photos are the end result of good pre planing, an understanding of the basic rules of art/composition and a mastery of the equiment in use. If you want boundless praise of your photograph show it to your momma, if you want to grow as a photographer send in some shots to your favorite mag or post them here and ask for a hard nosed critique.
Good point and well said! I know it's SO easy for me to like my photos simply because I enjoyed the experience of capturing them. I find it very hard to see them objectively sometimes, and that's why I value NPN so much. I have come to realize that the most striking photos are created by someone who spends lots of time learning, practicing, scouting, learning from others, taking classes, practicing, shooting and scouting some more. Many years of experience and practice go into their craft. There are times when I am frustrated with my images, but I realize that I don't have that kind of time to put into my hobby. So I learn as much as I can from NPN and do the best I can. I have been surprised to see, however, that some people post in a critique forum and then are offended when their photos are critiqued! My advise to those people is to be grateful for the advise, since many times it is coming from seasoned photography veterans. Take the advise, keep practicing, and have fun shooting!
Posted by Bill Chambers on April 12, 2007 at 9:03 PM
Well said. I still remember my first post here on NPN. I was so proud of this duck image I made. I was mostly proud of getting close enough for my old 75-300 to get a decent frame. Well the critiques I got were polite about the focus and exposure, but critical of the high angle and duck swimming out of the frame, and other subtleties. At first I was disappointed. Then I began to really look at the outstanding images here and analyze their components. I soon realized I ad a long way to go to make images that really communicate rather than just document.
I still have a long way to go, but the critiques I get here on NPN help me tremendously.
Posted by Doyle Thomas on April 12, 2007 at 9:26 PM
I do not see much hard nosed critique happen on this site
"some people post in a critique forum and then are offended when their photos are critiqued!"
It is hard to be less than positive in your critique comments and expect others to be less than biased in there comments on your own posts.
In my own case I have taken to making no comment on that which I feel does not meet my standard. When I make a (rare) positive comment you can be sure I mean it. I (often) do have reservations and thoughts about the images I see that could be taken as negative. With only text to convey the message it is difficult to set the tone and discuss an image in a way that is not painful for the recipient (as in your example).
While a harsh critique can be a useful learning experience an on-line critique just is not worth the hassle. A better format would be a "show, tell, and comment" among real people. I used to be active in some camera groups that did critiques and they were useful.
The most important point you make is that you were not discouraged. Instead you were determined to succeed.
I don't think anyone will receive unkind, curt critiques at NPN. Actually, your example is more like a curt rejection, than a critique. You critiqued them yourself because what made you throw out the 19? Nothing that the editor said.
What would you say is "hard nosed critique?" Going straight to the point? I believe in "sweetening" the critique with pointing out something good in the shot too.
Thank you one and all for your more than kind comments. Doyle you make a very good point about not having many hard critiques here as well I think as on other sites. I have given this much thought in the past year or so and will put my thoughts on this in another post in the next few days. I wish that I could put something up every day for all to take a shot at but my ability on this %#*^@ computer is just a hair above zero.I would love to take some classes but I work some long hours on the farm and I help with mom who is 82 and in a weelchair. I think that I have come up with an idea that will protect the young and tender on one end and open up old hard cases like me to what I like to call "blood in the water" critiques on the other end. When we look at a photograph we bring to that viewing our life experiances, our likes and dislikes etc. A few months ago someone posted a B&W shot of a small lake on what was I think a Winters eve. I can see that shot in my mind right now. I thought that it was super, others did not. Was I right and they wrong? No. That lake looked just like a pond I fished and hunted ducks on as a young man. I could still see my first triple on ducks as they rounded the point with the after burrners on. I could still hear the strong soft voice of the one armed old black man that fished for crappie on the left bank. I thought of the small dent in my Grandfarthers 20 ga where I sliped on ice and gravity took over , fast! I still chuckle as I think of the night that Indian Joe let the can of leaches get out in the canoe and we got them things stuck all over our leggs! It is not good or right or fair in spirit to judge some high school kids photo in the same way that you should judge one of mine. I will try to offer a bit of help more often in the future. To this end I just called B&H and ordered a new monotor, this one is just about to croke (its getting dark). Thanks to all, and to all a good night!
Robert, a very wise post. I too have had the abrupt return and it makes you stop and think. Even when I have been published, often the image in print looks nothing like I would have preferred or expected. One of the first things I learned when submitting images for publication is the editor doesn't care about your emotional attachment or how difficult it was to get the shot. And in the end the image will look like the editor prefers and not necessarily how I prefer. Thanks for a great post.
Posted by Jim Sabiston on April 13, 2007 at 11:27 AM
Robert,
Thank you. This is a very very good post (particularly part 2!). Mr. Thomas makes some good points as well, but may miss what seems to me, in my admittedly brief exposure (pun intended!) to the NPN group, the level of service provided here.
First, as regard critiquing, I always open with a few comments about what I like about a particular photo. If, in my very subjective opinion, I can make an observation or suggestion which I think will improve the image, then I make that suggestion. To me, this is useful to budding or even maturing photographers and good manners.The nature of what we do is subjective in its very nature. Technical aspects are vital part of a successful result, but the interpretive aspects (and resulting 'success') will always be in the eyes of our audience. Such is the nature of any undertaking involving 'art'. I have already received much good feedback to my few postings here. While I appreciate the "Nice photo" comments, it is the responses that contain specific commentary, good or bad, that hold value. If one's ego cannot handle the relatively mild critiquing found on NPN, they are going to have a rough time elsewhere.
Which brings us to Mr. Thomas' valuable commentary. I may be speaking (typing?) out of turn when I consider my very new membership, but NPN strikes me as a very good step for the aspiring photographer looking for a reasonably competent level of peer review. I started with a Flickr account, but grew out of that level rather quickly. NPN seems the ideal next step, and one I envision participating in for a long time based on my early experience ( I am in the slow, but steady, process of moving my portfolio, such as it is, over here). That said, it seems the next step, if I understand Doyle's meaning, would be a strictly professional level of critiquing, perhaps limited to professional photographers and editors. I can certainly see the potential value in that approach. I also know that I am not ready for it! Does such a forum exist, short of the occasional submission to publications? The latter is not designed to offer educational opportunities, other than the sort first mentioned by Robert. It's been a long time, but I have been on the receiving end of the rejection letter and know that experience. The editors are usually polite, but I do not recall receiving any 'helpful hints'! - (as if the editor had time for them! FWIW - I used to write sailing based articles back in the early 80's, no photography was involved.)
Three words of advice: Elegant and Eloquent.
Everything you do including photography should be measured as such. Every photograph must be beautiful (Elegant). Every photograph must speak for itself (eloquent).
When we look at a photograph we bring to that viewing our life experiances, our likes and dislikes etc.
This statement is absolutely right and I believe that we cannot separate ourselves from from "our life experiences, our likes and dislikes etc.". Just this morning I posted a very favorable comment on a picture in "Man and Nature" because I assocaited it with very fond childhood memories of growing up on a farm. I really liked the picture but I'm not a magazine editor and I don't know squat about what a mag editor might arbitrarily want. I only know what I like. Does that make my comment invalid? I don't think so. There may be rules which have been established over the centuries by artists who have observed what works and what does not, and they are definitely valid guidelines but we still create and judge our work and respond to other artists work with an emotional and associative bias. And we cannot get away from that!
I've posted some very different pictures here lately that i knew would meet with mixed reactions. Are the positive comments of lesser value than the negative ones? No. They are all influenced by people's Life experiences and preferences (and expectations I might add).
Here's what means the most to me ... I just got off the phone with a customer that I made some prints for and he said "These look fabulous on my livingroom wall. Thankyou". I can't say that I don't care if non of you liked my work, but a satisfied customer who knows our local landscape and knows when he likes what I've produced with what I have to work with means more.
PS. I got a little rushed with this response because I was writing it at work, and in the sincere interest of mature good manners I must say that I have been helped a lot by the thoughtful critiques to a couple of pictures that were giving me trouble for one reason or another. For that I am VERY GRATEFUL because your help has saved at least one picture by providing me with insight and a solutuion that I had not seen.
With all due respect,
Bob
Posted by Doyle Thomas on April 13, 2007 at 6:32 PM
ADVICE TO NEW PHOTOGRAPHERS:
Fine Art natural landscape and especially Fine Art Color natural landscape Photography is much maligned. There is a belief in the general population on seeing a well made natural landscape Photograph that they themselves could have done it had they been there. This is not true and that can only be learned by trying. When working in the landscape the normal practice is to seek out locations and plan your timing to be there when the light is good. The natural landscape is often busy and confused. The Photographer seeks a pristine subject that will fit into the film plain in a fashion that meets the traditional or other rules of composition and the constraints of their tools.
Is luck involved? Maybe…But then again, as Louie Pasture said, “CHANCE FAVORS THE PREPAIRED MIND” The real issue is not the composition, or the exposure, or even the light, but it is the focus. As in all Photography, it is the seeing, the vision and the ability to express it that are important.
It is easy to point out what may be perceived as technical flaws but do they subtract from the expression? All artists must start with a vision and the desire to express it. A Photographer uses cameras, lens, and film as the tools to express their vision and strives to master these tools. Finding your vision and learning to express it is another matter altogether.
The best advice I can give to a new Photographer on this site is to continue to post your work for whatever comments you can get. More importantly however, is to see (rather that look at) the work of others posted to this site. Seek out those that you find expressive of your own vision. These will be easy to find because they will be the images that have appeal to you, the images that you like. Studying these photographs to understand why you like them will help to clear your vision. When you vision is clear, you can start to express it. Remember though, as you seek out your vision that because a given image does not speak to you is not to say it does not speak.
Doyle
It is easier to gain enlightenment than to explain enlightenment.
Supreme Master Ching Hai
Posted by Doyle Thomas on April 14, 2007 at 1:38 PM
"if I understand Doyle's meaning, would be a strictly professional level of critiquing, perhaps limited to professional photographers and editors."
Feedback from the Pro's may be useful but so is feedback from respected peers
Discussion
12 repliesI still have a long way to go, but the critiques I get here on NPN help me tremendously.
"some people post in a critique forum and then are offended when their photos are critiqued!"
It is hard to be less than positive in your critique comments and expect others to be less than biased in there comments on your own posts.
In my own case I have taken to making no comment on that which I feel does not meet my standard. When I make a (rare) positive comment you can be sure I mean it. I (often) do have reservations and thoughts about the images I see that could be taken as negative. With only text to convey the message it is difficult to set the tone and discuss an image in a way that is not painful for the recipient (as in your example).
While a harsh critique can be a useful learning experience an on-line critique just is not worth the hassle. A better format would be a "show, tell, and comment" among real people. I used to be active in some camera groups that did critiques and they were useful.
Doyle
I don't think anyone will receive unkind, curt critiques at NPN. Actually, your example is more like a curt rejection, than a critique. You critiqued them yourself because what made you throw out the 19? Nothing that the editor said.
What would you say is "hard nosed critique?" Going straight to the point? I believe in "sweetening" the critique with pointing out something good in the shot too.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Thank you. This is a very very good post (particularly part 2!). Mr. Thomas makes some good points as well, but may miss what seems to me, in my admittedly brief exposure (pun intended!) to the NPN group, the level of service provided here.
First, as regard critiquing, I always open with a few comments about what I like about a particular photo. If, in my very subjective opinion, I can make an observation or suggestion which I think will improve the image, then I make that suggestion. To me, this is useful to budding or even maturing photographers and good manners.The nature of what we do is subjective in its very nature. Technical aspects are vital part of a successful result, but the interpretive aspects (and resulting 'success') will always be in the eyes of our audience. Such is the nature of any undertaking involving 'art'. I have already received much good feedback to my few postings here. While I appreciate the "Nice photo" comments, it is the responses that contain specific commentary, good or bad, that hold value. If one's ego cannot handle the relatively mild critiquing found on NPN, they are going to have a rough time elsewhere.
Which brings us to Mr. Thomas' valuable commentary. I may be speaking (typing?) out of turn when I consider my very new membership, but NPN strikes me as a very good step for the aspiring photographer looking for a reasonably competent level of peer review. I started with a Flickr account, but grew out of that level rather quickly. NPN seems the ideal next step, and one I envision participating in for a long time based on my early experience ( I am in the slow, but steady, process of moving my portfolio, such as it is, over here). That said, it seems the next step, if I understand Doyle's meaning, would be a strictly professional level of critiquing, perhaps limited to professional photographers and editors. I can certainly see the potential value in that approach. I also know that I am not ready for it! Does such a forum exist, short of the occasional submission to publications? The latter is not designed to offer educational opportunities, other than the sort first mentioned by Robert. It's been a long time, but I have been on the receiving end of the rejection letter and know that experience. The editors are usually polite, but I do not recall receiving any 'helpful hints'! - (as if the editor had time for them! FWIW - I used to write sailing based articles back in the early 80's, no photography was involved.)
Everything you do including photography should be measured as such. Every photograph must be beautiful (Elegant). Every photograph must speak for itself (eloquent).
This statement is absolutely right and I believe that we cannot separate ourselves from from "our life experiences, our likes and dislikes etc.". Just this morning I posted a very favorable comment on a picture in "Man and Nature" because I assocaited it with very fond childhood memories of growing up on a farm. I really liked the picture but I'm not a magazine editor and I don't know squat about what a mag editor might arbitrarily want. I only know what I like. Does that make my comment invalid? I don't think so. There may be rules which have been established over the centuries by artists who have observed what works and what does not, and they are definitely valid guidelines but we still create and judge our work and respond to other artists work with an emotional and associative bias. And we cannot get away from that!
I've posted some very different pictures here lately that i knew would meet with mixed reactions. Are the positive comments of lesser value than the negative ones? No. They are all influenced by people's Life experiences and preferences (and expectations I might add).
Here's what means the most to me ... I just got off the phone with a customer that I made some prints for and he said "These look fabulous on my livingroom wall. Thankyou". I can't say that I don't care if non of you liked my work, but a satisfied customer who knows our local landscape and knows when he likes what I've produced with what I have to work with means more.
PS. I got a little rushed with this response because I was writing it at work, and in the sincere interest of mature good manners I must say that I have been helped a lot by the thoughtful critiques to a couple of pictures that were giving me trouble for one reason or another. For that I am VERY GRATEFUL because your help has saved at least one picture by providing me with insight and a solutuion that I had not seen.
With all due respect,
Bob
Fine Art natural landscape and especially Fine Art Color natural landscape Photography is much maligned. There is a belief in the general population on seeing a well made natural landscape Photograph that they themselves could have done it had they been there. This is not true and that can only be learned by trying. When working in the landscape the normal practice is to seek out locations and plan your timing to be there when the light is good. The natural landscape is often busy and confused. The Photographer seeks a pristine subject that will fit into the film plain in a fashion that meets the traditional or other rules of composition and the constraints of their tools.
Is luck involved? Maybe…But then again, as Louie Pasture said, “CHANCE FAVORS THE PREPAIRED MIND” The real issue is not the composition, or the exposure, or even the light, but it is the focus. As in all Photography, it is the seeing, the vision and the ability to express it that are important.
It is easy to point out what may be perceived as technical flaws but do they subtract from the expression? All artists must start with a vision and the desire to express it. A Photographer uses cameras, lens, and film as the tools to express their vision and strives to master these tools. Finding your vision and learning to express it is another matter altogether.
The best advice I can give to a new Photographer on this site is to continue to post your work for whatever comments you can get. More importantly however, is to see (rather that look at) the work of others posted to this site. Seek out those that you find expressive of your own vision. These will be easy to find because they will be the images that have appeal to you, the images that you like. Studying these photographs to understand why you like them will help to clear your vision. When you vision is clear, you can start to express it. Remember though, as you seek out your vision that because a given image does not speak to you is not to say it does not speak.
Doyle
It is easier to gain enlightenment than to explain enlightenment.
Supreme Master Ching Hai
Feedback from the Pro's may be useful but so is feedback from respected peers
Doyle