I'm just curious how many of us at NPN actually make some or all of their income from their photography business. I currently have no income, but historically photography has been nothing but a catalyst for cash earned elsewhere. So, are you supporting yourself with your photography business? If so, to what extent or what percentage of your income is derived from photography? If you are earning some or all of your income from a photography business, how much of it is from nature phogography and how much from some other endeavor (portraiture, wedding, commercial, product, etc.)?
Hey Kelly, 2006 was my first year as a full time nature photographer, and 80% of my income came from the photography and I worked part time with my former business as a painting contractor (which will be decreased in the next couple years). The nature photography in its second year is already ahead of last year and I expect to increase sales a lot by end of 2007. The breakdown in sales last year was around 80% sale of prints through art shows, photo exhibits. Workshops provide 15% (which I expect to increase in the next couple years), and publications at about 5%. My art shows start this weekend and I book shows almost every weekend till fall. In the fall, winter, I'll run workshops, and in my first year I sold out twelve classes. Magazine publications are nice for your resume and helps sell your workshops but it doesn't pay the best. I really have fun doing the art shows and my best show last year was the Ann Arbor Art Fair in Michigan and it grossed over $9,000.00. (and its a bad economy in Michigan). I get to meet and talk to the people that are willing to part with their hard earned dollars to buy my work and provide the income for me to work in this business. Be prepared to spend more time with self promotions and running the business then out shooting, unless you become well known enough to hire people to run it for you. I'm on my way out to shoot right now Good Luck.
Posted by Bill Chambers on April 17, 2007 at 8:49 AM
I make a little (very little ) income from my photography, but I'm not really promoting it either. My main objective has been to help offset the expenses of this expensive hobby. I keep a running total of income, and if I'm ever in danger of turning a profit I take that as a sign I need to buy more equipment or take another trip! By setting up a business, I have been able to write off trips, expenses, equipment, etc. so that has helped quite a bit come tax time.
In short:
99% income from LF landscape (doesn't need to be strictly natural) photography, 1% from other nature related photography. we're in the 8th year full time, travelling 5-6 months a year on photo related trips that we choose (each of us, that is), leaving the rest for family-time and office hours. All our photography is for specific projects, normally we run 3-4 of them parallel.
Bill - There is no danger of my turning a profit. I have not set up a business, mainly because my real job and family take most of my time, but also because my undestanding was that you have to be able to demonstrate that you are trying to make money. That sounded a little daunting. I've sold a few things at a church art fair in the past couple years - less than $200 I think. I've spent more than that on ink and paper.
Kelly - we used to be able to create polls, but I guess that feature is gone. Your question looks like a perfect poll subject:
? have a business and show a profit
? have a business and don't show a profit
? don't have a business
Pete D.
Posted by Bill Chambers on April 17, 2007 at 9:48 AM
Pete - I relate to the "real" business and family life scenario, but that's still no reason not to set up a business IMO. My CPA told me not to worry about showing a profit for 4-5 years, and as long as I show a few grand a year income that'll suffice to keep the IRS at bay. Currently, equipment and trips account for a lot more than a few grand a year, so I should should be able to take wrtite offs for quite a while. When you start keeping up with mileage, ink and paper costs, framing expenses, travel expenses, etc. they begin to add up QUICKLY. It's been well worthwhile to the hassle factor of keeping up with receipts, etc.
Posted by Josh Anderson on April 17, 2007 at 9:50 AM
My full time job is a science teacher, but I make a portion of my total income from my photography business. I just started shooting seriously about a year and a half ago, but things seem to be picking up pretty quickly.
I am doing an art fair this Saturday and then I will have an exhibit on display (where I will be the only artist) for the weekend of May 4th and 5th.
make a little, only made 4600 last year with nature. I use my sports business to make the money, that brought in a little over 20K, mainly I use that money to buy new toys......Like others I use the business license as a way to write off expenses for a hobby. I work fulltime as a Government Teacher. Perhaps one day I will be able to sit in my rocking chair and collect revenue, if not, owell I saw pretty neat places, met some great people and had fun along the way.... I find that selling prints to giftshops is an easy way to make a few bucks, just got a check for $1970.00 yesterday for what cost me just under $700 to put together.....I will have a booth at a large gathering this year (Utah Swiss Days) perhaps that will bring in a dollar or two.......
Glennie and I make enough so that the hobby pays for itself and we can afford to buy what we need without dipping too much into the regular paycheck. Nature photography accounts for less tha half of that. We do some commercial work ( car shows, musicians and concerts, posters, entertainment etc) and we find that the general population is so urbanized that nature photography goes largely unappreciated.
Bob
Posted by Brian Monk on April 17, 2007 at 11:43 AM
I am relatively new to photography (2 years of taking images), but I am not new to business. I own three business entities, and have run three different hospitals.
I can say unequivocally that enveloping your hobby in a business is one of the best decisions you will ever make, IF you are serious about photography. It will allow you a greater freedom, simply because some or all of your expenses incurred from your hobby (equipment, travel, printing, computer needs, etc., etc., etc.) are officially considered necessary, and thus become tax deductable. This helps. A lot. Don't worry about making money, the IRS only needs to see that you are only TRYING to make a profit. And anything counts (sales, prizes, etc.). Legally, any business can exist for 4-5 years before showing a profit (I can't remember the exact time). The IRS will begin serious investigations beyond that time frame. Expenses can be controlled, and profits can be controlled to some degree as well. Don't le the fear of paperwork stop you, either. If you like paperwork and management, great! If you don't, accountants are cheap and you should get one!
There is an enourmous market for art, and someone will want to buy something from a decent photographer, especially if your intent is to sell your work. Keeping tabs on this process is essential for many reasons: obvious financial ones, but also more subtle reasons related to your art (motivation, satisfaction, approval, desire to improve one's work, etc.).
Mostly, in the long run, a business will help you continue to do what you love, without having to answer to anyone but yourself. I have always felt that this maybe it's greatest reward.
Brian, you are correct that "there is an enourmous market for art".
This is the direction that I took, and found me a couple of art buyers/reps to work with.
Best decision I have ever made, and I am at it full time now!
The wife said, "you have 5 years to show me you can do it, or you will need to go back to a real job!"
Into my second year now, well, ... she has been smiling a good bit!!
I can't offer anything to this as I am in no way close to be or get professional with photography (not yet - but I am more passionate about photography than anything else I 've done in my life)
I heard one saying that actually contradics what Brian stated (although I would love to proof Brian right and the saying wrong)
It's something like: "Becoming professional in photography is a great way to ruin a lovely hobby"
I hope this is not true, nor do I wish this ever happens to you guys.
Good luck!!!
Hi Kelly,
I make about a $1000 a year from sales of calendar/postcard submissions. Also, my accountant told me there is a starving artist tax law, that as long as you keep good records you're OK...including a diary if you're on the road "working." Also, I base my road trips on places that I've had requests for...so I have photo stock for those subjects...this is also a good arguement for the IRS. It used to be from a different accountant that you had to show a profit twice in seven years on your taxes...however the starving artist clause may have replaced that. I admire anyone who can make most of their income from nature photography...it's very competative. Best thing is to have high quality images...and large/medium format doesn't hurt...makes you more competative in the business. Many publishers will pick larger formats over 35mm. I still take 35mm...and I know that if more of my photos were in large or medium format more would sell or high quality digital.
Just go for it...it's a thrill when you sell the first one!
You're not helping my case trying to justify a 39 Megapixel Blad...
Posted by Bill Chambers on April 17, 2007 at 11:24 PM
Justifying the 39MP Blad to yourself is easy. Justifying it to your wife is the hard part!
Posted by Kent Staubus on April 18, 2007 at 12:35 AM
I used to sell a fair amount to local/regional stock agencies, but have decreased that in the past couple of years. These were mostly agricultural related photos such as harvest scenes, farm life, state fairs, etc. There is a market for that, but I'd rather spend the time photo'ing what I want than what others want. I've never really tried selling "nature" photography. It seems to me it takes a LOT of time to sit around long enough to get a good shot and the market for it just isn't as profitable as other niche markets. Anymore, most of my photos are sold to magazines, especially when attached to articles I write. I sold one to the largest railroad industry magazine last month and have two more in another railroad journal this coming month. I also work very part time as a photographer/columnist for a small (but national) railroad photography monthly magazine. I likely could make more money selling nostalgia type shots (old tractors, country churches, etc.) and in fact used to sell those kinds of shots to calendar companies. Any more though, I just don't feel like I need the money, don't really care if I sell anything or not, and don't really want the pressure and hassle. I once thought it would be fun to do the art fairs, but I just don't want to tie up my weekends with it. No way I'm quitting my full time job to do photography. It pays for my daily travels and I get to take photos every day. I have a fair amount of control over my schedule, so it's almost perfect.
I can't offer you absolute proof that one cannot ruin a great hobby by making it a simple job. After all, you cannot prove a negative statement to be true. But I can offer hard evidence that one's hobby may not be ruined by making it your career. And this ties in nicely with your "pessimistic" thread as well.
First example: I am a veterinarian. I have been involved in veterinary medicine for over 20 years, and have been a practicing doctor for 10 years. And I would not do anything else. I do not plan to retire, I plan to work until I die or am simply incapable of doing my job.
You mentioned that you are sometimes frustrated in the field, and that you feel that you are not achieving anything with your photography at times. I know what that feels like. Try doing anything for over 20 years, and not occasionally feel at a loss for direction or satisfaction.
But here is the proof. When you feel this way, what do you do next? Or at least eventually? The answer is "You do what you love to do!!" You do what you want to do. And even in the midst of your frustration, the next day you are going to drag yourself into the field. To take photos. And be a photographer. Not because you have to, but because you want to.
Posted by Kent Mearig on April 19, 2007 at 9:06 PM
A few weeks ago, I made my first ever "100% over the internet" sale, to a woman who located my work by searching for landscape photographs through one of the search engines (I've never even found it to be possible to locate my website without pretty detailed search entries). It was a total rush to have someone choose me out of the millions (?) to provide them with artwork. Well, one sale a year is only enough to pay for my web hosting service, but I have some other things in the works too. I'm eagerly awaiting a call back from a local gallery that would have my work in front of hundred and hundreds of tourists a day during the summer months that are about to start. Making a living from photography seems a long way off, but it would be a dream come true.
After I told her about this thread, my wive asked me when my five years had started. I told her I was sure in trouble if it had already and she forgot to warn me .
Our true "nature" sales have never topped 25% of our photo income, but then again we don't really push it. In our version of the photo business, lots of other types of shooting and subjects are better investments of our time and effort. In other words, it would probably cost us income to put more effort into nature shooting.
Speaking of investments, in our experience the photo business in all its forms fluctuates a lot from year to year, so as one type is down another may be up. Our response has been to remain diversified. And that goes beyond our photo business into our other endeavors. It simply feels like too big a gamble to me, having all my photo eggs in one basket, so to speak. I'm pretty cautious fiscally, but I'm a real libertine compared to my wife. Therefore, in addition to photography we're also into ranching, real estate, consulting, investing, and picking up pennies in parking lots. It sure takes the pressure of your photography when you're not totally dependent on it!
Discussion
19 replies99% income from LF landscape (doesn't need to be strictly natural) photography, 1% from other nature related photography. we're in the 8th year full time, travelling 5-6 months a year on photo related trips that we choose (each of us, that is), leaving the rest for family-time and office hours. All our photography is for specific projects, normally we run 3-4 of them parallel.
Georg
Kelly - we used to be able to create polls, but I guess that feature is gone. Your question looks like a perfect poll subject:
? have a business and show a profit
? have a business and don't show a profit
? don't have a business
Pete D.
I am doing an art fair this Saturday and then I will have an exhibit on display (where I will be the only artist) for the weekend of May 4th and 5th.
Bob
I can say unequivocally that enveloping your hobby in a business is one of the best decisions you will ever make, IF you are serious about photography. It will allow you a greater freedom, simply because some or all of your expenses incurred from your hobby (equipment, travel, printing, computer needs, etc., etc., etc.) are officially considered necessary, and thus become tax deductable. This helps. A lot. Don't worry about making money, the IRS only needs to see that you are only TRYING to make a profit. And anything counts (sales, prizes, etc.). Legally, any business can exist for 4-5 years before showing a profit (I can't remember the exact time). The IRS will begin serious investigations beyond that time frame. Expenses can be controlled, and profits can be controlled to some degree as well. Don't le the fear of paperwork stop you, either. If you like paperwork and management, great! If you don't, accountants are cheap and you should get one!
There is an enourmous market for art, and someone will want to buy something from a decent photographer, especially if your intent is to sell your work. Keeping tabs on this process is essential for many reasons: obvious financial ones, but also more subtle reasons related to your art (motivation, satisfaction, approval, desire to improve one's work, etc.).
Mostly, in the long run, a business will help you continue to do what you love, without having to answer to anyone but yourself. I have always felt that this maybe it's greatest reward.
This is the direction that I took, and found me a couple of art buyers/reps to work with.
Best decision I have ever made, and I am at it full time now!
The wife said, "you have 5 years to show me you can do it, or you will need to go back to a real job!"
Into my second year now, well, ... she has been smiling a good bit!!
I heard one saying that actually contradics what Brian stated (although I would love to proof Brian right and the saying wrong)
It's something like: "Becoming professional in photography is a great way to ruin a lovely hobby"
I hope this is not true, nor do I wish this ever happens to you guys.
Good luck!!!
I make about a $1000 a year from sales of calendar/postcard submissions. Also, my accountant told me there is a starving artist tax law, that as long as you keep good records you're OK...including a diary if you're on the road "working." Also, I base my road trips on places that I've had requests for...so I have photo stock for those subjects...this is also a good arguement for the IRS. It used to be from a different accountant that you had to show a profit twice in seven years on your taxes...however the starving artist clause may have replaced that. I admire anyone who can make most of their income from nature photography...it's very competative. Best thing is to have high quality images...and large/medium format doesn't hurt...makes you more competative in the business. Many publishers will pick larger formats over 35mm. I still take 35mm...and I know that if more of my photos were in large or medium format more would sell or high quality digital.
Just go for it...it's a thrill when you sell the first one!
Cynthia Spence
www.geolightphoto.com
Kent in SD
I can't offer you absolute proof that one cannot ruin a great hobby by making it a simple job. After all, you cannot prove a negative statement to be true. But I can offer hard evidence that one's hobby may not be ruined by making it your career. And this ties in nicely with your "pessimistic" thread as well.
First example: I am a veterinarian. I have been involved in veterinary medicine for over 20 years, and have been a practicing doctor for 10 years. And I would not do anything else. I do not plan to retire, I plan to work until I die or am simply incapable of doing my job.
You mentioned that you are sometimes frustrated in the field, and that you feel that you are not achieving anything with your photography at times. I know what that feels like. Try doing anything for over 20 years, and not occasionally feel at a loss for direction or satisfaction.
But here is the proof. When you feel this way, what do you do next? Or at least eventually? The answer is "You do what you love to do!!" You do what you want to do. And even in the midst of your frustration, the next day you are going to drag yourself into the field. To take photos. And be a photographer. Not because you have to, but because you want to.
After I told her about this thread, my wive asked me when my five years had started. I told her I was sure in trouble if it had already and she forgot to warn me
Speaking of investments, in our experience the photo business in all its forms fluctuates a lot from year to year, so as one type is down another may be up. Our response has been to remain diversified. And that goes beyond our photo business into our other endeavors. It simply feels like too big a gamble to me, having all my photo eggs in one basket, so to speak. I'm pretty cautious fiscally, but I'm a real libertine compared to my wife. Therefore, in addition to photography we're also into ranching, real estate, consulting, investing, and picking up pennies in parking lots. It sure takes the pressure of your photography when you're not totally dependent on it!