Our 6 month old Land Rover LR3 is in the shop for the sixth time. It's the third time for this particular problem; the dealer just can't seem to get it right. So far it's had a major suspension fault (tow to dealer), the AC died, the AC drained water on the floor when it worked, the tire pressure monitoring system thought all the tires were flat, the sunroof drain drained on the floorboard and the carpet mildewed, the transmission slips a bit on takeoff and then catches violently, the electric window switch only worked when it wanted to, and now the driver's power seat won't move for the third time (they assured me they found the short last time).
So, it's time to cut my losses and get something that works. The something I'm looking for has to be a real offroad vehicle, not a grocery getter with a big back door. High and low range transmission and central lockup are not optional. 4WD can get me into places that only a wench can get me out of, so a wench package is manditory. Nav is nice, but I can buy a Nuvi. Been thinking about the 4 door Jeep Rubicon, but I'm not sure. Oh, and enough space to carry my gear, dog, etc.
Any thoughts based on real world experience?
Posted by Gary Gulash on April 20, 2007 at 8:12 PM
I would take a serious look at the Toyota 4Runner. Toyota quality and off road capable with the right rubber. I have a Hummer H3, its terrific as an off road vehicle with amazing clearance and traction, go with the adventure package. I'm not sure yet about reliablilty though. Visibility could be better too, shares this drawback with the Toyota FJ Cruiser. The H3 is built in your neck of the woods, Louisiana. Rent one first and draw your own conclusions.
(I'm assuming you want the winch option, not a "wench" which is much higher maintenance and temperamental )
Kelly, obviously you'll get lots of opinions on this one. I've owned a variety of four wheel vehicles over the last thirty years and have had good ones and bad ones. My current one is a Ford Super Duty 250 Crew Cab 4 X 4. It has great clearance, high and low range 4 X 4 and also has manually lockable front hubs. It has a turbo V8 diesel engine. The primary reason I got one this big was to tow my travel trailer but I too like you go to some places where it is tough to get in and even tougher to get out of. I also work at a job (public safety) where I have to be able to get to the job no matter what the weather. I get fairly good fuel mileage even when towing my trailer. Good luck in your search.
Posted by Bill Chambers on April 20, 2007 at 10:24 PM
Just my opinion, but I think the older Toyota Land Cruisers were the best 4WD ever made. Super tough, reliable, comfortable. I'm currently driving a 2000 Isuzu Trooper and have been pretty pleased with it. It's had a couple of mechanical issues (200,000 miles so far) but the 4WD works well, and the ground clearance is decent. Original suspension was total crap so I beefed it up. Very comfortable, plenty of room, great visibility, and the best ergonomics I've ever seen. First Japanese truck I've owned (won't be my last!). Very impressed with build quality, but still would prefer Toyota.
Sorry to hear about your LR troubles, but your story is VERY common. Land Rover is renowned for it's quality issues.
Posted by Paul Burwell on April 20, 2007 at 10:26 PM
I have a Toyota FJ Cruiser and highly recommend it. You'll need to upgrade from the tires that come standard, but other than that you've got a very capable off-road vehicle that's kept me out of trouble for the last year. And I'm happy to report, knock on wood, that I've had absolutely zero reliability problems.
In my opinion, the visibility issues in the FJ are widely overstated.
My $0.02 worth.
Posted by Tom Webster on April 20, 2007 at 10:57 PM
If you've got the money, Dodge makes the Power Wagon pickup in the 3500 version that will go anywhere you could possibly want to go...and maybe some places you shouldn't.
Look into the lemon law. You may have some recourse on getting the range rover replaced by range rover. You will most likely have to go the district manager for range rover. I have a friend who had replaced two ford f250 diesel trucks replaced under the lemon law. It may be worth the hassle. I may be wrong but I believe that Ford has a stake in Land Rover.
The Land Rover is #1 for major problems in a recent poll. The #2 was the Hummer! I think you can find this on "Clark Howards" web site with WSB radio from Atlanta Ga. I drive one of the big Dodge trucks, love it. BUT there are lots of "trails" this monster is never going to fit on. Its main job is to tow my rv and flaten anything that croses over the center line and tries to take me and the weiner dog out. I have never owned a Jap anything and never will but if I wanted to go to Hell and back the short Jeep and the short Toyota truck get my vote. For off road I would buy "used" because its soon going to look used.
Posted by Chris Ebright on April 20, 2007 at 11:24 PM
I got a 2006 Nissan Xterra Offroad last year, and so far I love it. It has plenty of power, good clearance, locking diff., and plenty of room inside. I am 6'1" and can comfortably sleep in it, if that is a concern. I don't have a winch myself, but there are a ton of aftermarket parts out there, so i bet you could easily find a bumper that would take that. It doesn't have all the luxuries of some other vehicles, but it has all the essentials in my opinion. Plus, it keeps the cost down, definitly one of the best bargains out there for offroad capable SUVs. And I can even get 22mpg on the highway if i keep the speed at 70! and so far no problems, and overall have heard good stories all around from other xterra owners.
My Toyota Tacoma (1998) has been fabulous: V-6, stick, K&N air system, Flowmater exhaust. It has more capability in 4x4 than I have skill. I will say that it performed flawlessly at over 11,000 feet.
If I was to add anything, it would be a Dana rear end, air-locking axles, a modest lift, and an electric Warn winch.
Even without these items, the truck has done its job on some pretty hairball stuff!
I've owned five Jeeps over the past 15 years. I wanted Jeep ever since Tonka toys...and it was my first real off road vehicle. Every one of them was a headache. Every one needed a new engine and tranny before long. Two engines and two tranny's in the last Grand Cherokee before even 80,000 miles was on it. The newer Grand Cherokees were the worst. For the past three years I've had a 2003 Toyota Tundra (iforce V8), and I haven't been able to kill it. It will go anywhere that I've been foolish enough to push it so far, and I'm pretty foolish sometimes. I don't even know my Toyota dealers name, while I think I put three of my Jeep dealers kid's through college. He still sends me Christmas cards every year
Posted by Scott Fricke on April 21, 2007 at 12:06 AM
I purchased an FJ Cruiser last year and have taken it stock over some of the most difficult trails in Colorado and on several trails around Moab. Before that I had a Jeep Wrangler for 10 years and the FJ is just as capable. I also looked at the Rubicon, but the FJ is roomier up front, has more room for gear in back, is quieter, has a better on-road ride, and a nicer interior in my opinion. Drawback is the visibilty, although after a couple weeks you don't notice anymore and learn to use the mirrors. The FJ is also less expensive than the Rubicon and almost any other SUV around. I agree with a comment earlier that the stock tires are not great for deep mud or snow. I also looked at the xterra but didn't like the design as much.
For the first 4 months I had the vehicle I averaged over 1100 miles a week, and now have just over 22,000 miles on it and haven't had one problem with it.
Posted by William Lloyd on April 21, 2007 at 3:53 AM
Whoa whoa whoa - let me speak up for Jeep Cherokees here - first one was a 90 with the 6 cyl 4x4 - never had a problem and the exwife finally drove it into the ground (she stopped maintaining it) at 270,000 miles. Current Jeep is a 1995 Grand Cherokee 4x4 with 256,000 miles on it.
Like any vehicle, preventative maintenance avoids a lot of surprises....
Posted by Jim Erhardt on April 21, 2007 at 8:22 AM
We've had 2 Jeeps - a '96 Cherokee and our current '00 Grand Cherokee Ltd - and both have been good. The Grand now has 117k miles and no major problems. If you're into "modding" the old Cherokees can be made into awesome off-road vehicles (for use on approved trails, of course). But then again, the toughest "off road" stuff we ever do is the soft sand of Fire Island.
Sounds like any of the above mentioned vehicles will be just fine, though Toyotas seem to have the highest owner satisfaction. I've been driving Subaru for the last year and a half and for the conditons I drive in, doubt I would ever go back to a Jeep now.
Posted by Tom Webster on April 21, 2007 at 10:05 AM
Frankly, if I had the money to "do it all over again" I would find a used 1984 Toyota 4x4 short bed pickup truck for offroading and rebuild it from the ground up. I bought one new in 1984 and put 285,000 miles on it before some drunk T-Boned me and totaled the truck...and nearly totaled me! I put a 2" lift kit in it with Rancho shocks and left everything else stock. From mid-October to mid-January every year, for nearly 17 years, I had the truck out duck hunting over some of the nastiest roads in Arizona. A couple of places I had to winch up a part of the road. This was the last year that Toyota put solid front axles in their trucks instead of the independent front suspensions they use now. My son's 2000 Toyota pickup can't go anywhere near where we used to go in the old '84.
I once owned a 1978 Jeep CJ5 that swore me off of Jeeps forever. Using the Jeep for duck hunting over the same roads that I used the Toyota I was spending nearly as much in repairs each month as I was spending on the monthly payment! Never, ever will I own another Jeep! Looking at the image of Jim's Jeep, above, I would have that whole underside torn out before I even got too far off the road! No ground/rock clearance!
I am now driving a 1989 Nissan 4x4 pickup truck and it's just OK. The independent front suspensions on the small trucks just don't really cut it for serious offroad, 4x4 travel.
Posted by Jim Sabiston on April 21, 2007 at 10:28 AM
Kelly,
Jeep and Toyota seem to be the best choices out there. I'm a long time Jeep man myself, but I hear (almost) as many good things about Toys. The best Jeep ever made was the Cherokee model. I'm on my second, after putting almost 200K on my first. I bought a Cherokee Limited used ('89 for 10K) with 50K on it. I towed a race car/trailer combo all over the Northeast for a decade with it, and did my fair share of off-roading in it, mostly in the Dacks on unmaintained backroads and in DEEP snow as well as driving in the sand at Fire Island Inlet (photos and surfcasting). A good solid all around general purpose vehicle, and it gets almost 20 mpg on average. I finally gave it to my son (Corporal in the USMC) to drive back and forth between home and Camp Lejeune. He used it for three more years until a friend bounced it off a tree (no one hurt, but the poor Jeep never recovered). When I heard they were discontinuing the model, I treated myself to a new factory ordered 2001 Cherokee Limited. 59K on it now, with no problems except an emissions related fuel line replacement on the fuel tank vent last year. I ordered it with all the bells and whistles, especially the offroad and towing/suspension related packages.
These can be had on the used market for amazingly good prices considering the capability of the vehicle. Find one that was well maintained and you can't go wrong. Grand Cherokees are a completely different vehicle and do not have the same sterling reputation among mechanics (my dad and father-in-law were both mechanics). I am also admiring the new Jeep 4-door Unlimited and may evntually get one, but my daughter's tuition takes precedent at the moment!
Good luck with this!
Posted by Brian Monk on April 21, 2007 at 10:34 AM
I have a new Toyota FJ, and this is the best off-road vehicle I have investigated or driven. The FJ, fully loaded, cost me 31K. The drawback is that rear-lock differential and 4WD traction control only come in the more expensve packages. A snorkel is standard. But this is still less than the cost of a Land Rover. I have had the vehicle in mud up to the middle of the tires without issues or diffculty, and I wouldn't hesitate to drive this vehicle literally anywhere. The ride is comfy, the inside is spartan but clean, the stereo is fantastic, and there is plenty of room for my camping and photog gear. There is some difficulty fitting adults in the back seat because the reverse-opening doors are narrow, but little monkeys....err......children should have no problems. The visibility thing is overblown, in my opinion. Anyone driving this car for the first time will have to figure out how mirrors are actually meant to be used, because constantly looking over your shoulder at oncoming traffic will get you killed. But once you are using your mirrors, you're ok. The only thing I did for my convienience was putting a blind spot mirror on the driver's side, and put on a wider rear-view mirror. Lastly, though not really intended, the low profile of the windshield offers a shade, and I rarely have to wear sunglasses except when the light is streaming in from dawn or dusk.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on April 21, 2007 at 12:27 PM
Tom said;
Looking at the image of Jim's Jeep, above...
It's a SUBARU Forester FXT!
Definitely not a hard-core off road vehicle (and would never recommend it for that), but in sand and deep snow it does incredibly well with the renowned Subie AWD system.
BTW, with a 2.5 liter, 16-valve, DOHC turbocharged/intercooled flat four, it will leave ANY of the above mentioned vehicles in the dust on the road - both in a staight line and through the twisties.
Posted by Gary Crabbe on April 21, 2007 at 12:46 PM
I love my 2003 4 runner. So far so good on the off roading. see mine here.
my buddy drives a lexus; the author of several national 4wd books has called it something akin to a beast
I have a 2000 Ford Explorer and an F250 4X4 power stroke that have both done a good job of getting to places and back again, but, if you are looking for GREAT back country transportation this photo is of my top choice. It never gets stuck, never gets a flat tire, the airconditioning ALWAYS works, offers an unobstructed view, easily copes with logs across the road or trail, can ford rivers without a problem (the SWIM feature automatically engages when needed), and is legal in wilderness areas. What more could you ask?
I've driven Toyota trucks for the last 11 years and have not had one repair. I couldn't be paid to try another brand. The Tacoma's are robust and very nimble; I've owned two and they're great off-road. If you need more room, the Tundra has plenty. My current ride is a '05 Double Cab that I converted for photography outings. I put a thick feather bed in the back and it's honestly more comfortable than just about any hotel I've ever stayed at. Gas mileage isn't great - 15/18 - but it's not my daily driver so I don't mind. Smooth ride on the highway, and very capable off-road.
If you're planning on hitting more extreme trails, I wouldn't recommend the Tundra; nimble is not its forte.
Another nice thing about the Toyotas are that they hold their value very well. When I traded in my 3-yr old Tacoma for the Tundra, I got over 75% of the original price to put towards the Tundra.
Whatever you buy, it's a good idea to look at the price for used models that are a year or two older - that'll give you a good idea of what kind of value you're getting, and it's a pretty good indication of the quality as well.
BTW, per your original post I assume you're talking about something that will be beaten in the wilderness, and still get you home. After leaving two jeeps in the middle of the Anza Borrego desert with blown engines and having a nice hike into town in the110 degree desert sun....well never mind. I guess the coyotes gotta eat too....
I've had two Jeeps and two Toyotas. Both are excellent off-road vehicles but Toyota offers the added plus of legendary reliability. My 2001 Tacoma had 180,000 miles on it and I had precisely "zero" problems with it.
My new truck is a Toyota FJ Cruiser and it is proving to be even better off-road than my Taco. Shorter wheelbase, better front and rear overhangs and traction control (w/ a locking rear diff) that works surprisingly well. It's got power to spare, even with a lift and bigger, heavier tires, rides very comfortably and, with no carpet inside to soil, is the easiest vehicle I've ever owned to clean out after a day in the dirt/mud. And, it comes straight from the factory with functional rock sliders. You should give this vehicle serious consideration.
Best of luck with your search and the LR issue you're attemptig to resolve.
Posted by Tom Webster on April 21, 2007 at 11:49 PM
My son's 2000 Toyota pickup can't go anywhere near where we used to go in the old '84.;
The independent front suspensions on the small trucks just don't really cut it for serious offroad, 4x4 travel.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If he has a rear locker, it would be FAR more capable than your '84 you used to drive.
Hyping straight/solid axles is classic Internet speak. If you lock both ends of a decent IFS rig, the front end isn't what is going to hold you back. You'll need to replace/remove far more sheet metal and glass long before piling up a decent amount of broken independent front axle shafts.
No, Darren, this is not "Internet speak". This a conclusion I have come to after driving literally thousands of miles in 4 x 4 low gear. We cannot get his 2000 Toyota anywhere near some of the roads I've driven with the '84. My son will even admit it, too.
Solid axle housings will actually gain you more ground clearance in the rough stuff. As one wheel goes over the rough stuff, the center punkin' is lifted higher. That is a distinct advantage. On an independent front suspension, when one wheel goes over the rough stuff it is just that wheel moving. The center raises very little which gives you a better ride but does not necessarily allow for better ground clearance. Again, this is from experience as the pickup I now drive has independent front suspension and I do bottom out the punkins' more than I have done with the '84 Toyota.
Also, I never had to deal with constant velocity boots cracking on the old '84. It didn't have any. I've already had to replace both of the constant velocity boots on my 1989 Nissan p/u and it doesn't even have 50,000 miles on it yet.
If anybody would like a fourwheeling thrill I'd be happy to take you back to some of my old duck hunting spots but...you have to supply the vehicle!
Jim Erthardt wrote:
Tom said;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking at the image of Jim's Jeep, above...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's a SUBARU Forester FXT!
Definitely not a hard-core off road vehicle (and would never recommend it for that), but in sand and deep snow it does incredibly well with the renowned Subie AWD system.
BTW, with a 2.5 liter, 16-valve, DOHC turbocharged/intercooled flat four, it will leave ANY of the above mentioned vehicles in the dust on the road - both in a staight line and through the twisties.
Oops! Guess I should have read the post a little more closely. Somebody mentioned Jeep and all the bad memories from owning one came flooding back to me!
The Toy FJ is an amazing vehicle. Driving to Florida to shoot a wedding last weekend I watched one pull the biggest survival stunt I've ever seen. The wife and I were driving south on I-95 just north of Daytona Beach when someone passed us in an FJ. He was driving with a serious imparement; shifting from lane to lane, driving on the emergency lane, wobbling all over the road. My wife called FHP to report him, and while she was on the phone he drove completely onto the shoulder and into the adjacent ditch. I expected to see one of the classic rolling cars shedding parts scenes, but all I saw was an explosion of mud and weeds, and the FJ come rocketing out of the ditch at 80 mph, just missing an old classic car pulled onto the shoulder.
My 4-wheel desires are much slower, but I wanted to relate this story to the FJ owners out there. We're still shocked and awed that the FJ did not turn into mush, killing the driver and anyone nearby. The folks in the classic car had the good sense to run like hell for the other side of the ditch when he came barreling down on them. Somehow he missed them and their car, and turned off I-95 before I saw his final outcome. God bless his soul and anyone he affected on that fateful day.
Yeah, I shoot weddings. It keeps me in camera gear...
Discussion
24 repliesSo, it's time to cut my losses and get something that works. The something I'm looking for has to be a real offroad vehicle, not a grocery getter with a big back door. High and low range transmission and central lockup are not optional. 4WD can get me into places that only a wench can get me out of, so a wench package is manditory. Nav is nice, but I can buy a Nuvi. Been thinking about the 4 door Jeep Rubicon, but I'm not sure. Oh, and enough space to carry my gear, dog, etc.
Any thoughts based on real world experience?
(I'm assuming you want the winch option, not a "wench" which is much higher maintenance and temperamental
Sorry to hear about your LR troubles, but your story is VERY common. Land Rover is renowned for it's quality issues.
In my opinion, the visibility issues in the FJ are widely overstated.
My $0.02 worth.
Look into the lemon law. You may have some recourse on getting the range rover replaced by range rover. You will most likely have to go the district manager for range rover. I have a friend who had replaced two ford f250 diesel trucks replaced under the lemon law. It may be worth the hassle. I may be wrong but I believe that Ford has a stake in Land Rover.
John
John
If I was to add anything, it would be a Dana rear end, air-locking axles, a modest lift, and an electric Warn winch.
Even without these items, the truck has done its job on some pretty hairball stuff!
-PB
For the first 4 months I had the vehicle I averaged over 1100 miles a week, and now have just over 22,000 miles on it and haven't had one problem with it.
Like any vehicle, preventative maintenance avoids a lot of surprises....
Sounds like any of the above mentioned vehicles will be just fine, though Toyotas seem to have the highest owner satisfaction. I've been driving Subaru for the last year and a half and for the conditons I drive in, doubt I would ever go back to a Jeep now.
I once owned a 1978 Jeep CJ5 that swore me off of Jeeps forever. Using the Jeep for duck hunting over the same roads that I used the Toyota I was spending nearly as much in repairs each month as I was spending on the monthly payment! Never, ever will I own another Jeep! Looking at the image of Jim's Jeep, above, I would have that whole underside torn out before I even got too far off the road! No ground/rock clearance!
I am now driving a 1989 Nissan 4x4 pickup truck and it's just OK. The independent front suspensions on the small trucks just don't really cut it for serious offroad, 4x4 travel.
Jeep and Toyota seem to be the best choices out there. I'm a long time Jeep man myself, but I hear (almost) as many good things about Toys. The best Jeep ever made was the Cherokee model. I'm on my second, after putting almost 200K on my first. I bought a Cherokee Limited used ('89 for 10K) with 50K on it. I towed a race car/trailer combo all over the Northeast for a decade with it, and did my fair share of off-roading in it, mostly in the Dacks on unmaintained backroads and in DEEP snow as well as driving in the sand at Fire Island Inlet (photos and surfcasting). A good solid all around general purpose vehicle, and it gets almost 20 mpg on average. I finally gave it to my son (Corporal in the USMC) to drive back and forth between home and Camp Lejeune. He used it for three more years until a friend bounced it off a tree (no one hurt, but the poor Jeep never recovered). When I heard they were discontinuing the model, I treated myself to a new factory ordered 2001 Cherokee Limited. 59K on it now, with no problems except an emissions related fuel line replacement on the fuel tank vent last year. I ordered it with all the bells and whistles, especially the offroad and towing/suspension related packages.
These can be had on the used market for amazingly good prices considering the capability of the vehicle. Find one that was well maintained and you can't go wrong. Grand Cherokees are a completely different vehicle and do not have the same sterling reputation among mechanics (my dad and father-in-law were both mechanics). I am also admiring the new Jeep 4-door Unlimited and may evntually get one, but my daughter's tuition takes precedent at the moment!
Good luck with this!
It's a SUBARU Forester FXT!
Definitely not a hard-core off road vehicle (and would never recommend it for that), but in sand and deep snow it does incredibly well with the renowned Subie AWD system.
BTW, with a 2.5 liter, 16-valve, DOHC turbocharged/intercooled flat four, it will leave ANY of the above mentioned vehicles in the dust on the road - both in a staight line and through the twisties.
see mine here.
my buddy drives a lexus; the author of several national 4wd books has called it something akin to a beast
If you're planning on hitting more extreme trails, I wouldn't recommend the Tundra; nimble is not its forte.
Another nice thing about the Toyotas are that they hold their value very well. When I traded in my 3-yr old Tacoma for the Tundra, I got over 75% of the original price to put towards the Tundra.
Whatever you buy, it's a good idea to look at the price for used models that are a year or two older - that'll give you a good idea of what kind of value you're getting, and it's a pretty good indication of the quality as well.
Good luck!
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/pricing/best-worst-in-car-reliability-1005/most-least-reliable-new-cars/0704_most-least-reliable-new-cars.htm
BTW, per your original post I assume you're talking about something that will be beaten in the wilderness, and still get you home. After leaving two jeeps in the middle of the Anza Borrego desert with blown engines and having a nice hike into town in the110 degree desert sun....well never mind. I guess the coyotes gotta eat too....
My new truck is a Toyota FJ Cruiser and it is proving to be even better off-road than my Taco. Shorter wheelbase, better front and rear overhangs and traction control (w/ a locking rear diff) that works surprisingly well. It's got power to spare, even with a lift and bigger, heavier tires, rides very comfortably and, with no carpet inside to soil, is the easiest vehicle I've ever owned to clean out after a day in the dirt/mud. And, it comes straight from the factory with functional rock sliders. You should give this vehicle serious consideration.
Best of luck with your search and the LR issue you're attemptig to resolve.
No, Darren, this is not "Internet speak". This a conclusion I have come to after driving literally thousands of miles in 4 x 4 low gear. We cannot get his 2000 Toyota anywhere near some of the roads I've driven with the '84. My son will even admit it, too.
Solid axle housings will actually gain you more ground clearance in the rough stuff. As one wheel goes over the rough stuff, the center punkin' is lifted higher. That is a distinct advantage. On an independent front suspension, when one wheel goes over the rough stuff it is just that wheel moving. The center raises very little which gives you a better ride but does not necessarily allow for better ground clearance. Again, this is from experience as the pickup I now drive has independent front suspension and I do bottom out the punkins' more than I have done with the '84 Toyota.
Also, I never had to deal with constant velocity boots cracking on the old '84. It didn't have any. I've already had to replace both of the constant velocity boots on my 1989 Nissan p/u and it doesn't even have 50,000 miles on it yet.
If anybody would like a fourwheeling thrill I'd be happy to take you back to some of my old duck hunting spots but...you have to supply the vehicle!
Jim Erthardt wrote:
Oops! Guess I should have read the post a little more closely.
My 4-wheel desires are much slower, but I wanted to relate this story to the FJ owners out there. We're still shocked and awed that the FJ did not turn into mush, killing the driver and anyone nearby. The folks in the classic car had the good sense to run like hell for the other side of the ditch when he came barreling down on them. Somehow he missed them and their car, and turned off I-95 before I saw his final outcome. God bless his soul and anyone he affected on that fateful day.
Yeah, I shoot weddings. It keeps me in camera gear...