I am sorry if I am boring you with this, but I do think that there must be a number of other people having problems with this.
I have seen this question posted on other websites too, but I have never found a satisfactory answer to this one.
Here goes:
When you have a picture with srGB embedded and open it in photoshop with sRGB as working space, then should one not expect that the internet preview (when saving for web) should not alter the properties of the picture?
This is not the case for me - my pictures look substantially different when I open them under internet preview. The only way I can make sure that it looks somewhat similar to the way it looked in photoshop is by duplicating the photograph, do a proof colors preview (at monitor RGB) and adjust that duplicate until it look similar to the original. Often I have to add substantial saturation, and some colors simply are lost , no matter what I do. It is extremely frustrating and very costly timewise.
Is this happening to you too?
The only time I did not have this problem was when I used Tom Webster's suggestions to set the photoshop working space to monitor rgb and the profile of the document to monitor profile. ( I have also found that it works when one discards the profile, but the working space remains at monitor rgb.) The worry I have about this is that the photo either will have the monitor profile embedded (which will make it look very different on monitors with different profiles) or no profile embedded and I always thought that sRGB was the only way to allow for some degree of reproducibilty between different color managed monitors.
After I installed CS2 I had the same problem: images looked different when I brought them up in a web bowser.
Here's how I solved it:
1. Click 'Start'>Programs>Start Up. If Adobe Gamma is listed there, delete the shortcut.
2. Open Photoshop with a document displayed. Click View>Proof Setup. In the dialog box, select 'Custom'. Look in the drop-down list. Make sure the monitor profile you are using is displayed there. If it is, click 'OK'. Now, click View again, select 'Proof Colors'.
Now, if your monitor profile was not in the list in PS, you will need to either create a new profile and install it (this is what I did), or remove and re-add your montor profile through Windoze.
You still have to be sure to convert the image to sRGB before using Save for Web.
I disagree with having to convert the image to sRGB before saving for web display. Why do we profile our monitors? In my experience, converting to sRGB before "Saving for Web" makes my images look different than what is displayed on my profiled monitor. Remember, too, that "Saving for Web" removes any color profile associated with the image file. Here's a page I put together that demonstrates what happens when I convert my images to sRGB, rather than the monitor profile, when I "Save for Web".
The original image was recorded in my Canon EOS 1D MkII as a RAW file and the RAW file was saved as an Adobe RGB .tif file. For the image on the left I converted the color space to sRGB, made my image adjustments and then "Saved for Web" which removed the color profile along with the exif file from the .jpg image file. The color of this image is not what I saw on my monitor after adjusting the colors/density. This image is flatter and cooler than what I originally wanted.
The image on the right was converted to my monitor's profiled "working space". I used the same image adjustments and then saved this file using "Save for Web". This image now looks exactly like what I wanted it to look like and exactly what I saw on my monitor before "Save for Web".
The differences between these 2 images isn't as extreme for these images as I have had with other images in the past. Since what you want is an image that matches what you see initially on your profiled monitor you have to make your image adjustments using the monitor profile (what PS calls the "working space") before you "Save for Web". If you use any other profile (sRGB, Adobe RGB) Photoshop adjusts the colors you see in the PS window to match the gamut of the profile. When you "Save for Web" PS strips the color profile from the image file and you will see different colors in your image file.
I will grant you that the differences can be subtle but the differences do exist. Also, posting images on the Internet is somewhat like playing dice. How the image will finally look on someone else's monitor will depend upon whether the viewer's monitor is properly profiled.
Tom, the reason is that while your monitor is profiled, other viewers' is probably not so using your own profile will make it look "right" on your screen but not necessary on other (potentially lesser) ones.
sRGB was designed to be a lowest common denominator for a variety of devices and web browsers are programmed to assume images are in the sRGB space.
Guy, it is my understanding that the most popular web browser, Internet Explorer, does not recognize a color profile attached to an image file and basically ignores the color profile.
Tell me, though, which of the images look better to you?
Tom, the only difference I can see is in the swallow image which looks more yellow/green on the right and a bit more red on the left. Can't really say which is better though.
Yes, IE ignores color spaces embedded in files, which is exactly the point - it assumes sRGB, which is the default color space for Windows.
In fact, Microsoft was a partner in the development of sRGB:
Oh wow, thanks for all the feedback - I haven't looked here for a day or two.
At this point, as mentioned above, I have no idea why there is such a strong color shift when I save a sRGB picture for web. Surely this is not happening to everyone? And I am wondering why it is not happening to them.
If one does embed the monitor profile, and that photo is opened on somebody other's monitor with a different profile, can that lead to extreme color shifts? If there are no extreme color shifts then, considering the position I am in, it would be better to use document profile embedded photos rather than sRGB ones. Tom's method works for me, I am just afraid of how much variation there will be when the picture is seen with other monitors.
Christoph, it isn't worth imbedding a color profile with an image to be displayed on the Internet. The viewer's Internet browser will not recognize the color profile anyhow, at least Internet Explorer won't. I don't mess with other browsers so some of the newer browsers may try to use the imbedded color profile.
You cannot do anything, really, to guarantee someone else is going to see the same colors/contrast/density of your image on the Internet. The best you can hope for is the viewer will be using a calibrated monitor, otherwise, viewers not using calibrated monitors are going to see your images in a whole variety of colors/contrast/density. Make it look the best to you and that's the best you can do.
When you save the image using "Save for Web" in Photoshop, Photoshop will strip-out any color profile. That is really the best way to present images on the web with the least amount of variation. Nobody else's video card is going to try to use the same profile settings as your video card and monitor. Don't sweat it. Just make the images look their best to you.
Discussion
8 repliesI am sorry if I am boring you with this, but I do think that there must be a number of other people having problems with this.
I have seen this question posted on other websites too, but I have never found a satisfactory answer to this one.
Here goes:
When you have a picture with srGB embedded and open it in photoshop with sRGB as working space, then should one not expect that the internet preview (when saving for web) should not alter the properties of the picture?
This is not the case for me - my pictures look substantially different when I open them under internet preview. The only way I can make sure that it looks somewhat similar to the way it looked in photoshop is by duplicating the photograph, do a proof colors preview (at monitor RGB) and adjust that duplicate until it look similar to the original. Often I have to add substantial saturation, and some colors simply are lost , no matter what I do. It is extremely frustrating and very costly timewise.
Is this happening to you too?
The only time I did not have this problem was when I used Tom Webster's suggestions to set the photoshop working space to monitor rgb and the profile of the document to monitor profile. ( I have also found that it works when one discards the profile, but the working space remains at monitor rgb.) The worry I have about this is that the photo either will have the monitor profile embedded (which will make it look very different on monitors with different profiles) or no profile embedded and I always thought that sRGB was the only way to allow for some degree of reproducibilty between different color managed monitors.
Your help on this would be VERY appreciated.
Regards,
Christoph
I don't know if you tried my advice in your previous thread:
I think this might be the issue you describe.
Either way, you should not need to convert an image to your monitor profile. That profile is used by Windows, not by Photoshop.
Guy
Here's how I solved it:
1. Click 'Start'>Programs>Start Up. If Adobe Gamma is listed there, delete the shortcut.
2. Open Photoshop with a document displayed. Click View>Proof Setup. In the dialog box, select 'Custom'. Look in the drop-down list. Make sure the monitor profile you are using is displayed there. If it is, click 'OK'. Now, click View again, select 'Proof Colors'.
Now, if your monitor profile was not in the list in PS, you will need to either create a new profile and install it (this is what I did), or remove and re-add your montor profile through Windoze.
You still have to be sure to convert the image to sRGB before using Save for Web.
I hope this helps.
-PB
http://www.tomwebsterphoto.com/Essays/SaveforWeb/saveforweb.htm
The original image was recorded in my Canon EOS 1D MkII as a RAW file and the RAW file was saved as an Adobe RGB .tif file. For the image on the left I converted the color space to sRGB, made my image adjustments and then "Saved for Web" which removed the color profile along with the exif file from the .jpg image file. The color of this image is not what I saw on my monitor after adjusting the colors/density. This image is flatter and cooler than what I originally wanted.
The image on the right was converted to my monitor's profiled "working space". I used the same image adjustments and then saved this file using "Save for Web". This image now looks exactly like what I wanted it to look like and exactly what I saw on my monitor before "Save for Web".
The differences between these 2 images isn't as extreme for these images as I have had with other images in the past. Since what you want is an image that matches what you see initially on your profiled monitor you have to make your image adjustments using the monitor profile (what PS calls the "working space") before you "Save for Web". If you use any other profile (sRGB, Adobe RGB) Photoshop adjusts the colors you see in the PS window to match the gamut of the profile. When you "Save for Web" PS strips the color profile from the image file and you will see different colors in your image file.
I will grant you that the differences can be subtle but the differences do exist. Also, posting images on the Internet is somewhat like playing dice. How the image will finally look on someone else's monitor will depend upon whether the viewer's monitor is properly profiled.
sRGB was designed to be a lowest common denominator for a variety of devices and web browsers are programmed to assume images are in the sRGB space.
Guy
Tell me, though, which of the images look better to you?
Yes, IE ignores color spaces embedded in files, which is exactly the point - it assumes sRGB, which is the default color space for Windows.
In fact, Microsoft was a partner in the development of sRGB:
http://www.w3.org/Graphics/Color/sRGB
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/display/color/default.mspx
Guy
At this point, as mentioned above, I have no idea why there is such a strong color shift when I save a sRGB picture for web. Surely this is not happening to everyone? And I am wondering why it is not happening to them.
If one does embed the monitor profile, and that photo is opened on somebody other's monitor with a different profile, can that lead to extreme color shifts? If there are no extreme color shifts then, considering the position I am in, it would be better to use document profile embedded photos rather than sRGB ones. Tom's method works for me, I am just afraid of how much variation there will be when the picture is seen with other monitors.
Thank you for all your comments!!
Regards,
Christoph
You cannot do anything, really, to guarantee someone else is going to see the same colors/contrast/density of your image on the Internet. The best you can hope for is the viewer will be using a calibrated monitor, otherwise, viewers not using calibrated monitors are going to see your images in a whole variety of colors/contrast/density. Make it look the best to you and that's the best you can do.
When you save the image using "Save for Web" in Photoshop, Photoshop will strip-out any color profile. That is really the best way to present images on the web with the least amount of variation. Nobody else's video card is going to try to use the same profile settings as your video card and monitor. Don't sweat it. Just make the images look their best to you.