Posted by Nick Leadley on June 23, 2007 at 9:06 PM
Has anyone out there any experience with digital cameras and studio strobes? I recently acquired a set of Calumet Travelites after being told they would work with my Nikon digitals.
In doing a test yesterday I first used a light meter to get the exposure. But when I set the exposure on the camera and tried a test shot with the strobe the image was extremely underexposed.
I know the camera and flash are in synch and all Nikon tech support can tell me is they are are not communicating with each other and that I need to adjust the exposure to compensate. But in doing so I end up with shutter speeds on the very slow side and no depth of field at all.
Is it possible this is caused by the use of wireless transmitters?
We're using a mix of Speedatron Black Line, White Lightning, Novatron and one other I can't remember. All are triggered either hard wire or slave, and we have no problems with Nikon D2X, D80, or Fuji S2. Sounds like you have something else going on, but it's hard to imagine how underexposure could be caused by wireless transmitters. I'd look more to your metering, whether technique or model. Are you dropping the dome and pointing your as individual lights, or measuring all lights at once with the dome up?
Posted by Dan Borzynski on June 23, 2007 at 11:48 PM
Not knowing if you know how to use the lights, I am going to give a fairly basic answer.
The strobes do not communicate directly with the camera. The best that is going to happen is that you will signal the wireless transmitter to signal the strobe to fire. Everything else you need to do, which is where the meter comes in handy.
Turn on the strobes. Set them at a maximium power level, or mid or low. It doesn't matter since you'll probably be changing the setting at anyway. Okay, now what fstop do you want to shoot at? That will determine how much power you want the strobe set at. Suppose it is f11. For a shutter speed, use the synch speed, or maybe half that (the Canon 20D needs half the max synch speed for external strobes - I know, you are using Nikon. 1/125 sec works for my 20D)
Now, hook up a synch cord to your meter, or the wireless transmitter. In incident mode (that white dome if you are using a Sekonic), place the meter just above your subject, with the dome pointing towards the camera lens. Make sure your meter is in strobe mode. Using a synch cord or the transmitter attached to the meter, hit the meter button. The strobes should fire.
You should get a reading in f-stops. It may read f16. This means that you have enough light to light your subject if the f-stop is f16. The shutter speed is basically irrelevant since the flash is the shutter speed. That is why you'll be using the synch speed - much slower and you might have problems with ambient lighting. This gets into completely different issues and don't address your question.
Anyway, back to that f16 reading. You want f11. f11 to f16 is one stop more of light. If you now shoot with your strobes set as they are, you'll be one stop overexposed. Remember, that wider aperature means more light gets to the sensor. To actually shoot at f11, then, you'll need to reduce the amount of light that gets to the sensor by one stop. Now go over to the lights. Since you are at maximum power, you'll need to reduce the power by one stop. This should be clearly marked somewhere on the unit.
Some other sources of problems I have run across:
- metering technique. It is pretty straight forward, but I am not going to admit to how many times I have been careless about that. Use incident metering, flash mode and point the meter toqards the camera. And check to make sure you set the meter correctly! Again, another mistake I have made more than once.
- macro or closeups. You're subjects are pretty big, aren't they? Don't start with near 1:1 for learning lighting. The main reason is that as you approach 1:1 and go beyond, you'll need to increase the power output of the flash to compensate for light loss. Again, beyond the scope of this reply, but if you want to know more, ask or e-mail me. Just start with bigger things first!
- the transmitter sends more information than just "fire". If the transmitter also sends how much power the strobe should output, overriding your settings, you'll need to look at that. I am not real familar with most transmitters, so I don't know.
- Fresh batteries in the meter?
- Is your camera in manual mode? Stay with this mode until you know what you are doing.
I hope the helps.
Posted by Nick Leadley on June 24, 2007 at 10:46 AM
Dan and Hank.....Thanks for your answers!
I do know how to use strobes, having been doing so for years, which is why I find this so confusing.
I did the test with one light, using a Sekonic L758 flashmeter which I am certain you both know will fire the strobe wirelessly through the Pocket Wizard receiver. The measurement was taken with the dome up and held parallel to the subject, pointing towards the camera as Dan suggested. The strobe was at a 45-degree angle to the subject.
At ASA 100 the exposure was a 1/250 @ f/11 as indicated by the light meter. According to the camera owner's manual this was the shutter speed at whch to set the camera. The exposure was set manually to the reading on the meter.
The strobes do fire when tripped by either the light meter or the camera.
Hmm. I generally lower the dome, hold the meter right up agains the subject and point it right back at the light, since I want to know the amount of light striking the subject rather than coming from the camera. I'm enough of a fogie that I do that with all lights for a direct read of output from each, then do my own calcs rather than relying on the meter to average.
But if doing it your way caused problems, it would result in overexposure rather than the under exposure you're experiencing. That leaves me in a deeper quandary about your problem.
I use the L-508, so I'm broadly familiar with your Sekonic strobe features. Every once in a while I forget to switch the sensor from spot to incident, which can produce some really wierd readings- but usually overexposures rather than underexposures.
Do you have a second meter so you can compare results with your L-758? That's a problem I don't think has been posed yet. And double check that a minus exposure comp isn't dialed into the camera. I know that's pretty basic, but it's so easy to do that checking exp comp settings is part of my pre-shoot routine. My wife got bit that way on a recent ambient light location shoot, but fortunately discovered her evil ways before the shoot had progressed very far.
I'd also check with Nikon, Pocket Wizard, Sekonic and Calumet to see if they have any other reports. In talking with the folks at Tamrac about the triggers they sell, we learned that most of our lights and any of our older Nikon bodies don't function correctly with the triggers, so obviously there are model combos which can make a difference.
Posted by Nick Leadley on June 24, 2007 at 2:14 PM
Hank....
I did check the exposure compensation on the camera and it was set for no compensation. I have not checked it against my other meter....yet. I did make sure the meter was set on incident.
I am also going to try a sync cord for a direct connection to the lights just as a part of the process of elimination amd not use the wireless triggers.
Hmmm, it is so much easier to come up with suggestions when you are just learning. Both your camera and meter are pretty reliable.
The only other thing I can think of is to take your camera amd meter outside and go through every setting to see if it matches on exposure. Run through the major settings on the camera, and do each reading with the camera meter and the Sekonic as both reflective and incident to see if agrees. There probably be a small difference, depending on what you choose to spot meter on or what the camera chooses to do, but it should be enough of a test to rule out the handheld meter as simply being off.
If you get the synch cords locally, bring in your meter and lights as well and see if you can do a couple of test fires with a demo model to compare with your meter. Again, the results should be fairly close. Barring that, see if you can borrow a flash meter from someone to test with.
Since you have a fair amount of experience already, I am kind of stuck as to what to suggest. Anything else I can think of should overexpose rather than underexpose.
If the hardwiring clears up the issue, then it's a sure bet that the PW is involved. We don't use that brand, but I'm betting they will be a resource in helping you find a solution after you isolate the problem.
You still need to resolve the question of whether the wireless link between the meter and lights or between the camera and lights is at the root of it all. I'd meter wireless and hardwired and compare those numbers. If they're the same, then I'd shoot both hardwired and wireless at the metered setting and compare exposures. That should help you isolate the source of Exedrin Headache #19.
Posted by Nick Leadley on June 24, 2007 at 9:52 PM
After running another test with my other Calumet strobes, apparently the problem lies with the Calumet Travelites/Pocket Wizard combination for some reason.
With the strobes that run off the power pack the camera worked beautifully with both the synch cord and the Pocket Wizard. And the exposure readings from the meter were dead on.
Gotta love the process of elimination! Now on to Calumet and PW tech support and more jousting at windmills and lots of Excedrin as Hank suggested!
Discussion
8 repliesIn doing a test yesterday I first used a light meter to get the exposure. But when I set the exposure on the camera and tried a test shot with the strobe the image was extremely underexposed.
I know the camera and flash are in synch and all Nikon tech support can tell me is they are are not communicating with each other and that I need to adjust the exposure to compensate. But in doing so I end up with shutter speeds on the very slow side and no depth of field at all.
Is it possible this is caused by the use of wireless transmitters?
Thanks in advance for any help!
The strobes do not communicate directly with the camera. The best that is going to happen is that you will signal the wireless transmitter to signal the strobe to fire. Everything else you need to do, which is where the meter comes in handy.
Turn on the strobes. Set them at a maximium power level, or mid or low. It doesn't matter since you'll probably be changing the setting at anyway. Okay, now what fstop do you want to shoot at? That will determine how much power you want the strobe set at. Suppose it is f11. For a shutter speed, use the synch speed, or maybe half that (the Canon 20D needs half the max synch speed for external strobes - I know, you are using Nikon. 1/125 sec works for my 20D)
Now, hook up a synch cord to your meter, or the wireless transmitter. In incident mode (that white dome if you are using a Sekonic), place the meter just above your subject, with the dome pointing towards the camera lens. Make sure your meter is in strobe mode. Using a synch cord or the transmitter attached to the meter, hit the meter button. The strobes should fire.
You should get a reading in f-stops. It may read f16. This means that you have enough light to light your subject if the f-stop is f16. The shutter speed is basically irrelevant since the flash is the shutter speed. That is why you'll be using the synch speed - much slower and you might have problems with ambient lighting. This gets into completely different issues and don't address your question.
Anyway, back to that f16 reading. You want f11. f11 to f16 is one stop more of light. If you now shoot with your strobes set as they are, you'll be one stop overexposed. Remember, that wider aperature means more light gets to the sensor. To actually shoot at f11, then, you'll need to reduce the amount of light that gets to the sensor by one stop. Now go over to the lights. Since you are at maximum power, you'll need to reduce the power by one stop. This should be clearly marked somewhere on the unit.
Some other sources of problems I have run across:
- metering technique. It is pretty straight forward, but I am not going to admit to how many times I have been careless about that. Use incident metering, flash mode and point the meter toqards the camera. And check to make sure you set the meter correctly! Again, another mistake I have made more than once.
- macro or closeups. You're subjects are pretty big, aren't they? Don't start with near 1:1 for learning lighting. The main reason is that as you approach 1:1 and go beyond, you'll need to increase the power output of the flash to compensate for light loss. Again, beyond the scope of this reply, but if you want to know more, ask or e-mail me. Just start with bigger things first!
- the transmitter sends more information than just "fire". If the transmitter also sends how much power the strobe should output, overriding your settings, you'll need to look at that. I am not real familar with most transmitters, so I don't know.
- Fresh batteries in the meter?
- Is your camera in manual mode? Stay with this mode until you know what you are doing.
I hope the helps.
I do know how to use strobes, having been doing so for years, which is why I find this so confusing.
I did the test with one light, using a Sekonic L758 flashmeter which I am certain you both know will fire the strobe wirelessly through the Pocket Wizard receiver. The measurement was taken with the dome up and held parallel to the subject, pointing towards the camera as Dan suggested. The strobe was at a 45-degree angle to the subject.
At ASA 100 the exposure was a 1/250 @ f/11 as indicated by the light meter. According to the camera owner's manual this was the shutter speed at whch to set the camera. The exposure was set manually to the reading on the meter.
The strobes do fire when tripped by either the light meter or the camera.
Thanks again for all your help!
But if doing it your way caused problems, it would result in overexposure rather than the under exposure you're experiencing. That leaves me in a deeper quandary about your problem.
I use the L-508, so I'm broadly familiar with your Sekonic strobe features. Every once in a while I forget to switch the sensor from spot to incident, which can produce some really wierd readings- but usually overexposures rather than underexposures.
Do you have a second meter so you can compare results with your L-758? That's a problem I don't think has been posed yet. And double check that a minus exposure comp isn't dialed into the camera. I know that's pretty basic, but it's so easy to do that checking exp comp settings is part of my pre-shoot routine. My wife got bit that way on a recent ambient light location shoot, but fortunately discovered her evil ways before the shoot had progressed very far.
I'd also check with Nikon, Pocket Wizard, Sekonic and Calumet to see if they have any other reports. In talking with the folks at Tamrac about the triggers they sell, we learned that most of our lights and any of our older Nikon bodies don't function correctly with the triggers, so obviously there are model combos which can make a difference.
I did check the exposure compensation on the camera and it was set for no compensation. I have not checked it against my other meter....yet. I did make sure the meter was set on incident.
I am also going to try a sync cord for a direct connection to the lights just as a part of the process of elimination amd not use the wireless triggers.
Thanks!
I
The only other thing I can think of is to take your camera amd meter outside and go through every setting to see if it matches on exposure. Run through the major settings on the camera, and do each reading with the camera meter and the Sekonic as both reflective and incident to see if agrees. There probably be a small difference, depending on what you choose to spot meter on or what the camera chooses to do, but it should be enough of a test to rule out the handheld meter as simply being off.
If you get the synch cords locally, bring in your meter and lights as well and see if you can do a couple of test fires with a demo model to compare with your meter. Again, the results should be fairly close. Barring that, see if you can borrow a flash meter from someone to test with.
Since you have a fair amount of experience already, I am kind of stuck as to what to suggest. Anything else I can think of should overexpose rather than underexpose.
You still need to resolve the question of whether the wireless link between the meter and lights or between the camera and lights is at the root of it all. I'd meter wireless and hardwired and compare those numbers. If they're the same, then I'd shoot both hardwired and wireless at the metered setting and compare exposures. That should help you isolate the source of Exedrin Headache #19.
With the strobes that run off the power pack the camera worked beautifully with both the synch cord and the Pocket Wizard. And the exposure readings from the meter were dead on.
Gotta love the process of elimination! Now on to Calumet and PW tech support and more jousting at windmills and lots of Excedrin as Hank suggested!
Thanks you both for your help!