As some of you may be aware, I am moving house down to Devon in the immediate future, and I hope to photograph Roe deer when I get down there.
There are no nature reserves in my immediate area that I know of which have Roe Deer, but there are a couple of shooting estates which claim to have Roe Deer 'stalks' available.
What I am trying ask is would anyone use one of these estates to source their photo's? bearing in mind that the gamekeepers have alot of knowledge of how to 'stalk' the deer and that we as photographers, aim to conserve rather than kill.
Hope that all makes some sort of sense!
Regards Chris.
Interesting topic. If you had asked this question ten or even five years ago I would have said that shooting interests were a fair alternative form of conservation. I know several gamekeepers and they all have a good knowledge of habitat and species, far removed from the archetypal hooligan that goes round blasting everything in sight. There is no doubt that shooting interests play an enormous part in habitat creation and conservation.
Having been out of the UK for a few years and returned, it is very noticeable however that changes in farming methods have been huge, and changes in grants and subsidy structure
have meant that farmers have attended to 'habitat' much more than they ever have in the past. I now think that with this change, shooting interests can no longer say they are single handedly guarding habitat against the onslaught of intensive agriculture.
I think this is a question you can only answer yourself, but there are many aspects of the debate which you might want to consider first.
I pretty much agree with Mark but would add that farming practices could be 'all change again' tomorrow so apart from bodies like the RSPB, National Trust, The Wildlife Trusts & Scottish Natural Heritage to name a few most of our non intensively farmed land is still privately owned and much of this is maintained for 'sporting' purposes. It would be nice to think that nothing was ever shot for pleasure but we don't live in an ideal world and it is my opinion that responsible (and the majority are) 'Sporting Estates' are important to our wildlife as they have been in the past and will be in the future.
I find that outside of wildlife reserves the greatest diversity of wildlife often exists on 'Sporting Estates' under the control of knowledgeable and responsible game keepers!
What I am trying ask is would anyone use one of these estates to source their photo's? bearing in mind that the gamekeepers have alot of knowledge of how to 'stalk' the deer and that we as photographers, aim to conserve rather than kill.
I'd avoid making broad statements like that to any 'keeper you might be thinking about asking.
I'm sorry if I have caused any offence with my above statement, I phrased this purely for forum purposes to find out if the photographic industry thought the use of shooting estates was acceptable.
Regards Chris.
Posted by Andy Astbury on July 10, 2007 at 4:18 AM
WARNING - long diatribe
Ohh dear Chris, what a can whoop a** you could have opened here
Sporting estates in private ownership owe their livlihood to shooting, without something to shoot no money is generated and the estate dies very quickly.
With particular reference to deer, there are 3 ways to see them, commercial forestry, deer park and private sporting estate - yes there are national park wilderness areas like Exmoor but these are very few and far between.
All deer parks shoot their deer - FACT. Go to a deer park on a day when it's closed and you might very well hear the quiet report of a moderated rifle.
Park deer live in the most ideal of conditions and their population would explode way beyond the parks level of sustainability if they were not managed.
Commercial forestry - well now there's a thing; wild deer cause millions of pounds worth of damage to commercial tree crops every year - FACT.
Last year I watched a gang of planters working a very steep clear fell up the Selkirk Valley, planting 12" lodgepole saplings and about 800 yards behind them were 19 roe deer nipping the growth buds off the saplings - it was a case of "you plant 'em boys we'll eat 'em" - it was really funny to watch.
However, I was in the company of the Scottish Forestry Comission Head Ranger for that area and he was not too impressed I can tell you and the wheels were set in motion for the beat rangers to night shoot area - when this happens every deer that falls in the spotlights oo the vehicle is shot, in season or out of season it doesn't matter; all timber growers hold out of season tickets from their relevant governmental departments.
So we have deer parks which hold a managed stock of deer which always hovers around the level of maximum sustainability - that's why they suplementary feed, and we have commercial forestry where if the private timber companies had their way there wouldn't be any deer at all, and the two forestry commissions have to strike a fine balance between maximissing their timber productivity and keeping joe public happy.
No matter which way you look at the deer situation in the UK the deer have been painted into a corner by us clever humans - first we did them the biggest favour of all be eradicating bears and wolves so eliminating their only natural population control, then we proceeded to fence them in with walls, fences, roads and motorways to the point where most deer populations in the UK outside of deer parks are no longer free to roam at will between feeding grounds. Then to top it all off we decide that Red and Roe just aren't enough and we introduce Fallow,Munty and Chinese Water deer and that pesky little swine the Sika.
3 things to remember about deer - they are not stupid, they are very good at sex and the art of procreation, and due to their lack of stupidity they very quickly cotton on to the idea that their only real enemy is bi-pedal; so in reality these guys on mass are not rare in the slightest, everywhere they can exist the do and they are doing a very good job of scouting out new areas to live all the time - especially the introduced species - their rarity is only 'percieved rarity' due to the fact that they keep out of our sight.
The Roe deer is, imho, the most pretty and enigmatic deer on the planet, but sadly is the hardest deer in the country for the general public to see due to the fact that it refuses to do well in deer parks
To get back to your original question Chris there is really no ethical question to address - you are a paid up member of the human race just like the rest of us and lets face it we've cocked up everything else so why worry about the whys' and wherefores' - your best chance of photographing deer, especially Roe, on any given day will be on a sporting estate in the company of an estate stalking guide who knows the ground and his deer and who will actually appreciate what you are doing.
Andy's comments reminded me that I forgot to add that in the UK our deer populations have no serious natural predator and for their own health and the habitat in which they live they their numbers need to be controlled. Selective culling also ensures more healthy animals!
lets try and keep the conversation related to nature photography.
With respect to the estates, the shooting open season for Roe (male and female) is quite long. In England the open seasons are as follows, for Bucks = April 1st - Oct 31st and for Does is Nov 1st - Feb 28th/29th. Hence march is a good time if they ain't after foxes.
I would suggest that you approach the estates in question but at these open times of year, if there are paying clients, you may have to settle for second place, unless you want to pay around the same money ( not really I hear you say). That said they rarely use all of their ground at one time so there may be the oportunity, with a little co-ordination about times and areas, for you to get photos, especially if you will simply sit in a high seat for your photos - tell the keepers what you have seen, and possibly supply some photos for their advertisements.
Also remember that, clients or not, a certain quota of deer may be earmarked for the cull hence they will be activity most of the time so please be safe, inform and get permission from the land owner, co-ordinate with the keeper and please wear a small patch of something blaze orange and keep you mobile phone on vibrate where you can feel it.
PS Don't ask to go out with the 'rifles' unless you are known stalker and can stalk - also they usually will be shooting at a slightly larger distance than you need for photography.
Discussion
9 repliesAs some of you may be aware, I am moving house down to Devon in the immediate future, and I hope to photograph Roe deer when I get down there.
There are no nature reserves in my immediate area that I know of which have Roe Deer, but there are a couple of shooting estates which claim to have Roe Deer 'stalks' available.
What I am trying ask is would anyone use one of these estates to source their photo's? bearing in mind that the gamekeepers have alot of knowledge of how to 'stalk' the deer and that we as photographers, aim to conserve rather than kill.
Hope that all makes some sort of sense!
Regards Chris.
Hi Chris,
Interesting topic. If you had asked this question ten or even five years ago I would have said that shooting interests were a fair alternative form of conservation. I know several gamekeepers and they all have a good knowledge of habitat and species, far removed from the archetypal hooligan that goes round blasting everything in sight. There is no doubt that shooting interests play an enormous part in habitat creation and conservation.
Having been out of the UK for a few years and returned, it is very noticeable however that changes in farming methods have been huge, and changes in grants and subsidy structure
have meant that farmers have attended to 'habitat' much more than they ever have in the past. I now think that with this change, shooting interests can no longer say they are single handedly guarding habitat against the onslaught of intensive agriculture.
I think this is a question you can only answer yourself, but there are many aspects of the debate which you might want to consider first.
Mark
I pretty much agree with Mark but would add that farming practices could be 'all change again' tomorrow so apart from bodies like the RSPB, National Trust, The Wildlife Trusts & Scottish Natural Heritage to name a few most of our non intensively farmed land is still privately owned and much of this is maintained for 'sporting' purposes. It would be nice to think that nothing was ever shot for pleasure but we don't live in an ideal world and it is my opinion that responsible (and the majority are) 'Sporting Estates' are important to our wildlife as they have been in the past and will be in the future.
I find that outside of wildlife reserves the greatest diversity of wildlife often exists on 'Sporting Estates' under the control of knowledgeable and responsible game keepers!
David
I'd avoid making broad statements like that to any 'keeper you might be thinking about asking.
I'm sorry if I have caused any offence with my above statement, I phrased this purely for forum purposes to find out if the photographic industry thought the use of shooting estates was acceptable.
Regards Chris.
Ohh dear Chris, what a can whoop a** you could have opened here
Sporting estates in private ownership owe their livlihood to shooting, without something to shoot no money is generated and the estate dies very quickly.
With particular reference to deer, there are 3 ways to see them, commercial forestry, deer park and private sporting estate - yes there are national park wilderness areas like Exmoor but these are very few and far between.
All deer parks shoot their deer - FACT. Go to a deer park on a day when it's closed and you might very well hear the quiet report of a moderated rifle.
Park deer live in the most ideal of conditions and their population would explode way beyond the parks level of sustainability if they were not managed.
Commercial forestry - well now there's a thing; wild deer cause millions of pounds worth of damage to commercial tree crops every year - FACT.
Last year I watched a gang of planters working a very steep clear fell up the Selkirk Valley, planting 12" lodgepole saplings and about 800 yards behind them were 19 roe deer nipping the growth buds off the saplings - it was a case of "you plant 'em boys we'll eat 'em" - it was really funny to watch.
However, I was in the company of the Scottish Forestry Comission Head Ranger for that area and he was not too impressed I can tell you and the wheels were set in motion for the beat rangers to night shoot area - when this happens every deer that falls in the spotlights oo the vehicle is shot, in season or out of season it doesn't matter; all timber growers hold out of season tickets from their relevant governmental departments.
So we have deer parks which hold a managed stock of deer which always hovers around the level of maximum sustainability - that's why they suplementary feed, and we have commercial forestry where if the private timber companies had their way there wouldn't be any deer at all, and the two forestry commissions have to strike a fine balance between maximissing their timber productivity and keeping joe public happy.
No matter which way you look at the deer situation in the UK the deer have been painted into a corner by us clever humans - first we did them the biggest favour of all be eradicating bears and wolves so eliminating their only natural population control, then we proceeded to fence them in with walls, fences, roads and motorways to the point where most deer populations in the UK outside of deer parks are no longer free to roam at will between feeding grounds. Then to top it all off we decide that Red and Roe just aren't enough and we introduce Fallow,Munty and Chinese Water deer and that pesky little swine the Sika.
3 things to remember about deer - they are not stupid, they are very good at sex and the art of procreation, and due to their lack of stupidity they very quickly cotton on to the idea that their only real enemy is bi-pedal; so in reality these guys on mass are not rare in the slightest, everywhere they can exist the do and they are doing a very good job of scouting out new areas to live all the time - especially the introduced species - their rarity is only 'percieved rarity' due to the fact that they keep out of our sight.
The Roe deer is, imho, the most pretty and enigmatic deer on the planet, but sadly is the hardest deer in the country for the general public to see due to the fact that it refuses to do well in deer parks
To get back to your original question Chris there is really no ethical question to address - you are a paid up member of the human race just like the rest of us and lets face it we've cocked up everything else so why worry about the whys' and wherefores' - your best chance of photographing deer, especially Roe, on any given day will be on a sporting estate in the company of an estate stalking guide who knows the ground and his deer and who will actually appreciate what you are doing.
Sorry for the lengthy response Chris
Regards Chris.
Andy's comments reminded me that I forgot to add that in the UK our deer populations have no serious natural predator and for their own health and the habitat in which they live they their numbers need to be controlled. Selective culling also ensures more healthy animals!
Regards
David
With respect to the estates, the shooting open season for Roe (male and female) is quite long. In England the open seasons are as follows, for Bucks = April 1st - Oct 31st and for Does is Nov 1st - Feb 28th/29th. Hence march is a good time
I would suggest that you approach the estates in question but at these open times of year, if there are paying clients, you may have to settle for second place, unless you want to pay around the same money ( not really I hear you say). That said they rarely use all of their ground at one time so there may be the oportunity, with a little co-ordination about times and areas, for you to get photos, especially if you will simply sit in a high seat for your photos - tell the keepers what you have seen, and possibly supply some photos for their advertisements.
Also remember that, clients or not, a certain quota of deer may be earmarked for the cull hence they will be activity most of the time so please be safe, inform and get permission from the land owner, co-ordinate with the keeper and please wear a small patch of something blaze orange and keep you mobile phone on vibrate where you can feel it.
PS Don't ask to go out with the 'rifles' unless you are known stalker and can stalk - also they usually will be shooting at a slightly larger distance than you need for photography.
T
Thanks to all who took the time to reply.
Regards Chris.