Posted by Randy Wilson on July 13, 2007 at 4:47 PM
I hope a post on the business side of nature photography is ok.
You know, I actually sold a couple of images once to a book publisher, but then I forgot to bill the buyer and so never got paid. I did get a complimentary copy of the book my images appeared in, but I would say that still leaves my amateur status completely intact.
So it is as a completely clueless amateur I come before you to ask if anyone has an idea about how to price images in the following situation. An art consulting firm putting together a collection of prints for a new hospital contacted me about purchasing some of the images on my Web site, either in the form of oversize prints, or in the form of digital files that they could then use to make the prints themselves.
The latter option has more appeal to me, as I'm not much of a printer (yet, I hope), but then I haven't a clue about how much to charge for this kind of use. I would assume that the charge would be independent of the print size, but would depend on whether an image was used for a single print or multiple prints.
I would say to definitely NOT sell them a digital file. If you do that, you've lost all control of how your work is presented to the world. If they want prints, they don't need a digital file, and their request would be a red flag to me because they probably want to use your work in more ways than just a print!
Yup, I agree - you should never give a place like this your digital files - you can get prints done at many labs and retain control over your files. They want large prints on canvas, 40x60 (some even larger). I've heard from several photographers today about this same print request. You have to be careful when selling prints this size - most 35mm slides won't cut enlargement that big unless they are critically sharp to begin with and you have a drum scan made (flatbed scans won't cut it) - and a digital file from an 8mp camera won't quite cut it either - you might be able to stretch a 12mp, but really should be going from medium or large format film, or at least a 16mp digital camera or above. Otherwise your images may suck pretty bad and that will get around. One-time sales of bad prints don't help any of us.
As for your book deal, it is never too late to invoice them - they should have cut you a check anyway, or at the very least requested an invoice until they got one from you. And by the way, you are not considered a professional anything unless at least 50% of your income comes from it - just selling a print or two does not qualify. It is so funny how many folks push themselves off as "professional photographers" even though they really are not even close. But I guess that is the game we play.
One last thought - most "pros" never know how much to charge either! You want to make the sale so you price it low but then you realize you could have still made the sale at a much higher price. My price for these prints was $800 - that's about the lowest I feel I can go and still make it worth my time to supply a high-quality print that I would be proud to put my name on. Good luck to everyone on this print deal!
OK, you asked, so I did it. At 240ppi (you don't need any more than this for a print that large), 16-bit, and with the PK Sharpen layer added, the file size is 2.3 gigs. A flattened, 8-bit file at 240ppi all ready to print is a mere 395mb. The files I've been working with for the new picture book were typically in the 1-2 gig range, and a few things were slow, but I got a special computer just for this project and the big Phase One files so I did not have to spend too much time waiting.
Thanks for doing the calculation, Tim. I had tried it at 600ppi and my measly 2 gig memory crashed when I tried to sharpen.
Randy - As Tim noted, it would appear that a lab is the only way to go on this particular job. I don't know who does canvas, but it really needs to be coated after printing, and that can be a real pain. I tried spraying and rolling the water-based stuff and finally gave up on it. The lacquer-based finish is pretty tricky too, and requires a respirator or plenty of fresh air when you use it.
For any future work that might come your way, the pricing software I use is called fotoquote. It's not cheap, but it has a lot of features that are very handy. It breaks down the pricing by usage, size of the company wanting your work, and by region of the world.
I used to use fotoquote and it was great - but now I just quote them something out of the thin air that I think they can pay. One of the first bigtime and famous stock photo guys told me this once - if when you give them the price they don't drop the phone and faint then you have not quoted them a price that is high enough!
Here is a free online service for editorial stuff that can sometimes get you in the ball park, although in reality you seldom get to quote your own price - they will pay you what their going rate is and that is about it - http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm
Posted by Tim Ferrell on July 16, 2007 at 10:49 PM
" And by the way, you are not considered a professional anything unless at least 50% of your income comes from it - just selling a print or two does not qualify. It is so funny how many folks push themselves off as "professional photographers" even though they really are not even close. But I guess that is the game we play. "
ouch, that seems a bit harsh. I thought a professinal was- 1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain. I guess I'm not a pro anything. My customers are going to be so disappointed.
As we can find a hundred times a day with slobs in all professions who claim to be "pros" - the term has nothing to do with quality, only with your IRS status...No, you are not a professional photographer if you sell a print or two a year - that does not cut it (even though I see people claiming to be "pros" with little more experience than that all the time). If you toil and work and spend most of your waking hours doing photography then you can consider yourself one - although come to think of it that would not always mean you make at least 51% of your income from it since many of us remain starving artists!
Posted by Randy Wilson on July 17, 2007 at 4:06 PM
Thanks everyone for your help.
I agree about the 40 X 60 prints. The images that the art firm was interested in all happen to be taken on 35mm film and would not stand up to that kind of enlargement. However, they also mentioned a need for 20 X 30 and 24 X 36 prints, which might be doable. I'm not sure I would want to mess around with canvas, but the agent hasn't mentioned, at least not yet, that canvas is required.
I was concerned about providing digital files as well, but then I got to thinking that most business transactions involving images, for magazines or other publications, for example, usually require transferring either a digital file or a slide, and selling a single-use right to make a print wouldn't in principle be any different from that, although it would be harder to discover violations of the single-use provision. Does that seem right to anyone?
About the professional/amateur stuff, my hope is that one day I'll have enough money to retire and become a professional amateur, that or an amateur professional. Maybe that's the one thing I'll actually be good at, especially if I really apply myself and work hard at it.
You are correct about sending off your digital file to a magazine - just like we used to do with film originals. But then they were simply scanning them with editorial use in mind, where in this case they will be sending them off to a third-party printer to do with what they want. I know a lot of guys who work in pro labs, and they get lots of free prints! Not a big deal really since you would do this if you got any lab to make prints for you, but just something to think about.
Discussion
10 repliesYou know, I actually sold a couple of images once to a book publisher, but then I forgot to bill the buyer and so never got paid. I did get a complimentary copy of the book my images appeared in, but I would say that still leaves my amateur status completely intact.
So it is as a completely clueless amateur I come before you to ask if anyone has an idea about how to price images in the following situation. An art consulting firm putting together a collection of prints for a new hospital contacted me about purchasing some of the images on my Web site, either in the form of oversize prints, or in the form of digital files that they could then use to make the prints themselves.
The latter option has more appeal to me, as I'm not much of a printer (yet, I hope), but then I haven't a clue about how much to charge for this kind of use. I would assume that the charge would be independent of the print size, but would depend on whether an image was used for a single print or multiple prints.
Does anyone have any ideas?
As for your book deal, it is never too late to invoice them - they should have cut you a check anyway, or at the very least requested an invoice until they got one from you. And by the way, you are not considered a professional anything unless at least 50% of your income comes from it - just selling a print or two does not qualify. It is so funny how many folks push themselves off as "professional photographers" even though they really are not even close. But I guess that is the game we play.
One last thought - most "pros" never know how much to charge either! You want to make the sale so you price it low but then you realize you could have still made the sale at a much higher price. My price for these prints was $800 - that's about the lowest I feel I can go and still make it worth my time to supply a high-quality print that I would be proud to put my name on. Good luck to everyone on this print deal!
Randy - As Tim noted, it would appear that a lab is the only way to go on this particular job. I don't know who does canvas, but it really needs to be coated after printing, and that can be a real pain. I tried spraying and rolling the water-based stuff and finally gave up on it. The lacquer-based finish is pretty tricky too, and requires a respirator or plenty of fresh air when you use it.
For any future work that might come your way, the pricing software I use is called fotoquote. It's not cheap, but it has a lot of features that are very handy. It breaks down the pricing by usage, size of the company wanting your work, and by region of the world.
Hope that helps...
Here is a free online service for editorial stuff that can sometimes get you in the ball park, although in reality you seldom get to quote your own price - they will pay you what their going rate is and that is about it - http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm
ouch, that seems a bit harsh. I thought a professinal was- 1. following an occupation as a means of livelihood or for gain. I guess I'm not a pro anything. My customers are going to be so disappointed.
I agree about the 40 X 60 prints. The images that the art firm was interested in all happen to be taken on 35mm film and would not stand up to that kind of enlargement. However, they also mentioned a need for 20 X 30 and 24 X 36 prints, which might be doable. I'm not sure I would want to mess around with canvas, but the agent hasn't mentioned, at least not yet, that canvas is required.
I was concerned about providing digital files as well, but then I got to thinking that most business transactions involving images, for magazines or other publications, for example, usually require transferring either a digital file or a slide, and selling a single-use right to make a print wouldn't in principle be any different from that, although it would be harder to discover violations of the single-use provision. Does that seem right to anyone?
About the professional/amateur stuff, my hope is that one day I'll have enough money to retire and become a professional amateur, that or an amateur professional. Maybe that's the one thing I'll actually be good at, especially if I really apply myself and work hard at it.