Recently I have found myself torn while viewing some of the posted pictures... "John Doe" will post a picture that looks like a basic snap shot and then state, "comments and critiques welcome ". It's hard for me to rattle off a list of imperfections in fear of shattering their image, and emotions that went along with it. Does "John Doe" want me to give an honest opinion, or is it better if I just click next?
I have always noticed that the "better" images receive many more comments, and the seasoned, accomplished photographers receive many comments from their "buddies". The mediocre shots receive very few comments, and the newcomers usually don't receive as many comments unless their photos are outstanding. I think much of this is due to the concern you mentioned. Unfortunately, I think much is also due to the fact that many people browse the thumbnails and click on the images that look good. Those that don't strike us right away are skipped over. However, this is a forum that new artists come to in order to learn from the seasoned photograpers here, and I think especially when they ask for comments and critique we should give it.
As for being afraid of hurting feelings, I try to start with some encouragement. There's usually something you can praise...the colors, the comp, the effort in general. Then point out what could be done to improve the image. Then encourage them again to keep practicing and posting. As long as the critique is done in a positive and encouraging way, I think it benefits everyone.
Posted by Kent Staubus on July 19, 2007 at 8:57 AM
Try to find a couple of major points that will help them make a better image next time. You don't have to write two paragraphs about everything you thought wrong, but might consider at least getting the basic concept. The way I look at it, constructive criticism is how we learn.
I was a teacher for years and instinctively can't relinquish the habit. In my book, the beginners need help more than the experienced need ego stroking. Therefore I'm more likely to put the time and effort into images such as you describe rather than the "good stuff." Personal call and not a criticism of anyone else's motives.
As Alice indicates, there's a bit of art in critiquing a beginner's photo's problems without hurting feelings. In spite of asking for help, they're usually fairly proud of it- proud enough to bother posting in the first place. Start with the praise, then offer suggestions for helping the photographer achieve their stated goal. If they don't tell you what they were hoping to accomplish with the shot, it can be tough however.
Posted by Hans Hibbard on July 19, 2007 at 11:14 AM
I'm a newcomer and am pretty new to photography in general...especially nature photography. I'll share my initial impressions and hopes since joining NPN.
Perhaps I'm an exception but, when I posted my first couple of images, I partly hoped I would receive substantial criticism. I'd been working on my own photos until I felt that I had little personal critique left to draw upon. I was willing to pay the membership fee to this site in order to receive critiques from REAL photographers and to learn from my own critiques of other people's work (equally important).
I think Alice has a good point however, make sure that the "positive sandwich" contains only honesty (i.e. "Your heart was in the right place but, your execution was off."). This can be followed by a list of problems and another "Get back out there!" comment.
Not everyone has to do this but, as long as one person takes the initiative, that seems good enough. I guess my answer to your question Peter would be to give me the list of problems if you're willing to take the time. Positive is nice too but, please be sincere about it.
PS - I think most beginners post images because the want to improve, not show off. I don't post images that I'm proud of until I'm ready to deal with criticism of them.
Posted by Sharon Menke on July 19, 2007 at 12:14 PM
I am somewhat of a newcomer here myself. I have learned so much from comments that people have left on my photos (the good and the bad). I am very grateful for that. I saw somewhere that if you want your photos to be critiqued, you need to be thick skinned about it and not take it personally. How can you learn that you are doing something wrong without it being pointed out to you? Also, other pairs of eyes can see things that you didn't pick up on.
Speaking as a once-frequent reviewer, it really really helps if posters ask specific questions about a photo in addition to asking for general reactions. That way the responses are more focused on solutions to problems you are working with. If you're working with DOF for example, and everyone points out that your horizon is tilted, it isn't going to be a very satisfactory experience. In all cases, it is a big help to reviewers if you also post details about your equipment, and where cogent, insights on your shooting strategy. Also, a specific plea for help is more likely to get a response.
BTW- I'm a "once-frequent" reviewer because I live far out a dirt road on and island in the Gulf of Alaska with no option but a dial-up connection. Our "28k" connection has degraded to something between 8k and 14k. The larger size of NPN photo posts these days take anywhere from two to five minutes to display. Much as I love photo critique and NPN, I simply can't afford that much time to participate any more.
I pretty much quit posting photos here because they usually sucked, but no one would tell me that. I felt blessed if I got one or two comments, positive or negative, on any post. My interests have shifted too, so I don't do that much nature photography any more. My 500 f/4 hasn't left the closet this year. I post photos regularly on another rather pricy forum that specializes in portraiture, weddings, etc. The pros on that forum can best be described as brutally frank. You definitely have to park your ego at the door there. I wish there was more of that here.
I submit photos because I want a response. I am a non-stop learner. We all see things in a different light, but the basics stay the same... comp, color, tone, etc..
Sometimes I say what it is I am looking for in a critique, if I am working on a certain factor in the image. To just put in image online and expect an critique... for me does not work.
Want a good critique on my images. It sometimes disappoints when an image I think is great gets mediocre reviews, but I learn and improve. The past years has taught me a lot through my participation in this form.
Something else to consider, besides the good advice already given, is that perhaps part of the problem is with you (us) Sometimes, photographers are trying for other qualities that are a little more subtle in the presentation.
Don't look at me, I'm about as subtle as a kick in the arse! But I've seen some photographers work here, very accomplished photographers I might add, who's work, at first glance , might seem pretty basic, in terms of visual impact. But upon further viewing you see other underlying themes and thoughts expressed. I find that sorta thing interesting.
Awhile back I started the Anonymous Game, partly for that reason. You'd have to look a little closer, think a little harder, just in case you were overlooking the not so obvious.
Thanks, Tim
Posted by Bruce Painter on July 19, 2007 at 10:19 PM
I have posted very few photos here but since I have now became a member I will try to post more. When I do post I really want to know what you think, good or bad. Sure I want the pros to tell me how great my shot is, but since that is not where I "am" in my work I just want the replys to be truthful. Tell me what is working and what is not with my photo. I think that is what most of the posters here at NPN want. After all if all I want to hear is how good my photograph is I'll just show it to my family and co-workers not to you guys and gals.
Even the more experienced photographers here are looking for feedback. This is not just a site for amateurs to get professional help. If it were, the "experienced" photographers would have little reason to be here. No matter how good you may think you are, there's always someone that can offer a suggestion and make you see something that you missed. There is no such thing as a perfect photo.
One reason that the more experienced get more comments is that they also tend to comment more on other's photos, good or bad, pro and beginner. Some of them have given many thousands of comments. I for one am glad that they post so that I can see how good it can be, and if I like their photo I'll tell them so. (Even if it's just with the two smiley faces with beers) If you see something that you think can help the photo, say so. No big deal. Of course the best photos will get more comments. It's part of our learning experience to know a good photo when we see it, and this turns into comments.
I also like to help beginners. It's another reason I'm here. We were all beginners not so long ago. I also tend not to comment much on other's photos if they themselves do not comment, even if you're a beginner.
Posted by Toni Lankerd on July 20, 2007 at 9:51 AM
The first image I ever posted (at another site!) was shot down really bad, with nary a good thing to say about it. Did that hurt? You betcha!!! But...it made me more determined than ever to improve!
On the other hand, two years ago I made a comment on an image posted by an experienced photographer....the positive first, then some advice about a couple imperfections...too bright/needed contrast and a suggestion that the member clone out a dust spot. My comment was made politely (not harsh in anyway! ), but regardless, received a personal email from said member, more or less ranting and raving about my critique, ending with something along the line that he wouldn't be posting here any longer. Guess I bruised his ego by not thinking the image was the best ever posted!
Posted by Gary Gulash on July 20, 2007 at 10:54 AM
Kelly Rowe, I am sorry to hear that you have lost interest in posting nature photos here. I know that it is very disappointing to not get any feedback, good or bad, on images you took the time to prepare and present. However, I believe that there is a fundamental difference between the kind of critique you can give a set-up shot in a portrait studio vs a wildlife photo. In portraiture you can orchestrate every nuance of the lighting, pose, props etc. So I would be more critical of a portrait if the photographer put the light in the wrong place or had the wedding group arranged awkwardly. On the other hand it is not realistic to inform an avian photographer that his diving peregrine falcon should be larger in the frame and better positioned when he really did the best he could "under the circumstances". As you say, we generally know when an image we post here "sucks". I believe that we may be forgetting that these "critique" forums are also about just sharing the photos we took. I'm often looking more for an over all emotional response to what I present. I know when the eye is out of focus (usually). Maybe I'm wrong and perhaps this should be "brutal".
Regardless of the image quality, If you think you can help someone improve, please don't click "next". By all means share your thoughts! There's no way to know what a person really wants, all we can do is assume that they want honest, constructive and supportive comments. If they don't, then they should state so (and then ask themselves why they're posting in a critique gallery…).
I think the responsibility for a productive image critique forum is shared equally by the person presenting an image and the people providing comments. I assume that the photographer wants a critique, and an honest one at that - that's what the IC is for. How they respond to that is up to them.
My approach has always been to be honest, candid and thoughtful in my comments, and deliver those comments in a supportive and sensitive manner. I map the sensitivity to the photographer - I might be more casual or candid with someone I know personally and am friends with while I might take a little more time to carefully phrase comments to someone whom I don't know.
Short story for me is…if a thoughtful and constructive critique chases someone from the forum, then they're probably not in a position to benefit from what the IC galleries offer anyway. If we try to "save" those people by not providing comments on any photos that fall into the less-than-spectacular category, we're doing a disservice to the rest of those we pass up that are genuinely interested in receiving honest feedback.
Well I think if you can spare the time you should be honest in your critique.
Many time I have posted an image only to receive maybe 3 or 4 comments mostly positive which leaves me puzzled because all the "Name Photographers" get 20 + comments on their admittedly excellent images. Leaves one to conclude.
1.The image is not up to snuff ( the three or four who commented are lying)
2.The wrong photographer is posting it
3.Posted the wrong time of day.
4.The picture was taken in the wrong hemisphere.
5. A combination of the above.
If the picture is bad then say so.
I have seen mediocre get 20+ comments and other eqaully mediocre images get maybe 5 . I will leave you to guess what the key difference was.
Posted by Mark Stahlke on July 20, 2007 at 8:02 PM
Rod, I think you may have missed an obvious reason an image might get only a few comments. When I post an image and get very few comments that speaks volumes. It tells me that the image is unremarkable. That is, the image has no serious flaws but is uninspired and uninspiring. Silence itself can be a valuable critique.
Mark, You are of course correct, although my point is that I have seen uninspiring images coming from well know authors still garnering a lot of comment.
So although one can conclude that silence is telling me an image is un inspired it also might equally be saying any of the other points I listed.
So at the end of the day if we can't expect honest balanced critique why bother to post at all.
After all if the only critique is the assumption that our images lack vision -what are we going to do to improve, where to from here? Genius it is said is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
Posted by Mark Stahlke on July 20, 2007 at 10:19 PM
After all if the only critique is the assumption that our images lack vision -what are we going to do to improve, where to from here? after all Genius it is said 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
I guess we have to perspire more!
But seriously, you have a good point. Here is one suggestion I've seen before: If you feel you aren't getting the kind of honest critique you desire, send an email to one of the moderators or pros and ask them for a thorough critique. Most will be happy to oblige.
BTW, if you see uninspired images posted by well known photographers, tell them so! They can't see their images through your eyes.
My last post in the Earth, Sea, Sky Gallery did not go over so well. I wasn't that sure about it myself. What matters to me was the honest and frank comments that I received on it. I think it is difficult to say to another photographer that his post does "not work for me". I would have learned nothing with flattery.
If you feel compelled to "rattle off a list of imperfections" then go for it. Is that not why the image is posted? However the manner that you critique does matter. That is one of the main reasons I post at NPN. The critiques are given with respect to the photographer. There is no sarcasm, ridicule and ruthless shooting down of any images. We are here to learn and improve; not to be humbled.
What you risk by giving a critique is that you may be the only one giving it. It would be better if someone else echoes your sentiments. Sometimes it seems like the critique is countered in the next comment. It is up to the photographer who posted to decide.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
Posted by Jim Erhardt on July 21, 2007 at 10:02 AM
I have often thought that the formation of small, temporary "critique groups" would have merit. You would contact a few other photographers and agree to comment on all photos posted by group members - when a photo is posted, email them to let them know. In a way, this already happens to a degree, and could be a good way for new participants to get rolling.
If it leads to dialogue rather than single posts about an image, I heartily agree with the idea Jim. The most valuable critiques result from discussion (i.e., question and answer with replies), but it's not the norm. If the critique groups were formed, I think it would go a long ways in furthering individual growth.
feedback, feedback, feedback, it is what it is, good or bad. The only way to get better is to get input. I personally change stuff based on the feedback. I don't know all the technical lingo and PS techniques so I post in hopes that information can be shared that I might improve. There are a few photographers on this site that have taken the time to simply shoot me an e-mail on tips, those are greatly appreciated. I would expect a poor picture of mine to be slaughtered and a good one to be critiqued so as to improve it.
Good topic this one. Since I discovered NPN, my photography has immensely improved. This happened due the harsh critiques I see in the reviews. Photographers were picky and I learned from that. I also learned from the positive critiques. My pictures have usually been criticized and I´ve learned a lot from that. Nowadays, sometimes I feel people are not as picky as I they used to be though.
I live in Brazil and here we don´t find any communities such as NPN. All we see are ego busters. People post photos to hear good comments and they don´t take it well when they get constructive criticism. Simple comments such as "Beautiful" and "Lovely" are usually read. No technical details are given and nobody dares say something constructive. I have tried introducing constructive criticism, but it wasn´t seen with good eyes, so I just gave up. I don´t look at those sites anymore, they haven´t taught me anything.
Good topic this one. Since I discovered NPN, my photography has immensely improved. This happened due the harsh critiques I see in the reviews. Photographers were picky and I learned from that. I also learned from the positive critiques. My pictures have usually been criticized and I´ve learned a lot from that. Nowadays, sometimes I feel people are not as picky as I they used to be though.
I live in Brazil and here we don´t find any communities such as NPN. All we see are ego busters. People post photos to hear good comments and they don´t take it well when they get constructive criticism. Simple comments such as "Beautiful" and "Lovely" are usually read. No technical details are given and nobody dares say something constructive. I have tried introducing constructive criticism, but it wasn´t seen with good eyes, so I just gave up. I don´t look at those sites anymore, they haven´t taught me anything.
Discussion
28 replies--pb
As for being afraid of hurting feelings, I try to start with some encouragement. There's usually something you can praise...the colors, the comp, the effort in general. Then point out what could be done to improve the image. Then encourage them again to keep practicing and posting. As long as the critique is done in a positive and encouraging way, I think it benefits everyone.
Kent in SD
As Alice indicates, there's a bit of art in critiquing a beginner's photo's problems without hurting feelings. In spite of asking for help, they're usually fairly proud of it- proud enough to bother posting in the first place. Start with the praise, then offer suggestions for helping the photographer achieve their stated goal. If they don't tell you what they were hoping to accomplish with the shot, it can be tough however.
Perhaps I'm an exception but, when I posted my first couple of images, I partly hoped I would receive substantial criticism. I'd been working on my own photos until I felt that I had little personal critique left to draw upon. I was willing to pay the membership fee to this site in order to receive critiques from REAL photographers and to learn from my own critiques of other people's work (equally important).
I think Alice has a good point however, make sure that the "positive sandwich" contains only honesty (i.e. "Your heart was in the right place but, your execution was off."). This can be followed by a list of problems and another "Get back out there!" comment.
Not everyone has to do this but, as long as one person takes the initiative, that seems good enough. I guess my answer to your question Peter would be to give me the list of problems if you're willing to take the time. Positive is nice too but, please be sincere about it.
PS - I think most beginners post images because the want to improve, not show off. I don't post images that I'm proud of until I'm ready to deal with criticism of them.
BTW- I'm a "once-frequent" reviewer because I live far out a dirt road on and island in the Gulf of Alaska with no option but a dial-up connection. Our "28k" connection has degraded to something between 8k and 14k. The larger size of NPN photo posts these days take anywhere from two to five minutes to display. Much as I love photo critique and NPN, I simply can't afford that much time to participate any more.
Sometimes I say what it is I am looking for in a critique, if I am working on a certain factor in the image. To just put in image online and expect an critique... for me does not work.
Don't look at me, I'm about as subtle as a kick in the arse! But I've seen some photographers work here, very accomplished photographers I might add, who's work, at first glance , might seem pretty basic, in terms of visual impact. But upon further viewing you see other underlying themes and thoughts expressed. I find that sorta thing interesting.
Awhile back I started the Anonymous Game, partly for that reason. You'd have to look a little closer, think a little harder, just in case you were overlooking the not so obvious.
Thanks, Tim
Bruce
One reason that the more experienced get more comments is that they also tend to comment more on other's photos, good or bad, pro and beginner. Some of them have given many thousands of comments. I for one am glad that they post so that I can see how good it can be, and if I like their photo I'll tell them so. (Even if it's just with the two smiley faces with beers) If you see something that you think can help the photo, say so. No big deal. Of course the best photos will get more comments. It's part of our learning experience to know a good photo when we see it, and this turns into comments.
I also like to help beginners. It's another reason I'm here. We were all beginners not so long ago. I also tend not to comment much on other's photos if they themselves do not comment, even if you're a beginner.
On the other hand, two years ago I made a comment on an image posted by an experienced photographer....the positive first, then some advice about a couple imperfections...too bright/needed contrast and a suggestion that the member clone out a dust spot. My comment was made politely (not harsh in anyway! ), but regardless, received a personal email from said member, more or less ranting and raving about my critique, ending with something along the line that he wouldn't be posting here any longer. Guess I bruised his ego by not thinking the image was the best ever posted!
I think the responsibility for a productive image critique forum is shared equally by the person presenting an image and the people providing comments. I assume that the photographer wants a critique, and an honest one at that - that's what the IC is for. How they respond to that is up to them.
My approach has always been to be honest, candid and thoughtful in my comments, and deliver those comments in a supportive and sensitive manner. I map the sensitivity to the photographer - I might be more casual or candid with someone I know personally and am friends with while I might take a little more time to carefully phrase comments to someone whom I don't know.
Short story for me is…if a thoughtful and constructive critique chases someone from the forum, then they're probably not in a position to benefit from what the IC galleries offer anyway. If we try to "save" those people by not providing comments on any photos that fall into the less-than-spectacular category, we're doing a disservice to the rest of those we pass up that are genuinely interested in receiving honest feedback.
Many time I have posted an image only to receive maybe 3 or 4 comments mostly positive which leaves me puzzled because all the "Name Photographers" get 20 + comments on their admittedly excellent images. Leaves one to conclude.
1.The image is not up to snuff ( the three or four who commented are lying)
2.The wrong photographer is posting it
3.Posted the wrong time of day.
4.The picture was taken in the wrong hemisphere.
5. A combination of the above.
If the picture is bad then say so.
I have seen mediocre get 20+ comments and other eqaully mediocre images get maybe 5 . I will leave you to guess what the key difference was.
Cheers,
So although one can conclude that silence is telling me an image is un inspired it also might equally be saying any of the other points I listed.
So at the end of the day if we can't expect honest balanced critique why bother to post at all.
After all if the only critique is the assumption that our images lack vision -what are we going to do to improve, where to from here? Genius it is said is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.
But seriously, you have a good point. Here is one suggestion I've seen before: If you feel you aren't getting the kind of honest critique you desire, send an email to one of the moderators or pros and ask them for a thorough critique. Most will be happy to oblige.
BTW, if you see uninspired images posted by well known photographers, tell them so! They can't see their images through your eyes.
Cheers,
If you feel compelled to "rattle off a list of imperfections" then go for it. Is that not why the image is posted? However the manner that you critique does matter. That is one of the main reasons I post at NPN. The critiques are given with respect to the photographer. There is no sarcasm, ridicule and ruthless shooting down of any images. We are here to learn and improve; not to be humbled.
What you risk by giving a critique is that you may be the only one giving it. It would be better if someone else echoes your sentiments. Sometimes it seems like the critique is countered in the next comment. It is up to the photographer who posted to decide.
Will
Edmonton, Alberta
Canada
I live in Brazil and here we don´t find any communities such as NPN. All we see are ego busters. People post photos to hear good comments and they don´t take it well when they get constructive criticism. Simple comments such as "Beautiful" and "Lovely" are usually read. No technical details are given and nobody dares say something constructive. I have tried introducing constructive criticism, but it wasn´t seen with good eyes, so I just gave up. I don´t look at those sites anymore, they haven´t taught me anything.
I´m glad I have you here to help me though!!
I live in Brazil and here we don´t find any communities such as NPN. All we see are ego busters. People post photos to hear good comments and they don´t take it well when they get constructive criticism. Simple comments such as "Beautiful" and "Lovely" are usually read. No technical details are given and nobody dares say something constructive. I have tried introducing constructive criticism, but it wasn´t seen with good eyes, so I just gave up. I don´t look at those sites anymore, they haven´t taught me anything.
I´m glad I have you here to help me though!!