Posted by Todd Caudle on August 20, 2007 at 11:48 AM
Well, I certainly can't pay 8 grand for a new camera, but that should bring down the cost of the 5D and 1Ds Mk-II. 21-mp? Now that is cool!
Posted by Todd Caudle on August 20, 2007 at 11:51 AM
Oh, and the dual Digic-III processors sound like quite a revelation, too.
Posted by Derek Sedillo on August 20, 2007 at 12:07 PM
Yes,
I was thinking that same thing with regards to the 5D cost. Since the 40D price dropped and many features are now more current than the 5D, the next 5D II will hopefully drop in price. There is already speculation as to when the 5D II will be introduced. I think it is still going to be a bit of a wait - next year some time probably.
I think I am going to wait for the dust to settle before deciding on getting a 5D/5D II.
Posted by Scott Bacon on August 20, 2007 at 12:14 PM
Derek wrote:
I think I am going to wait for the dust to settle before deciding on getting a 5D/5D II.
I'm right there with you. As a current 30D owner looking to upgrade, the 40D looks attractive with some very nice features. But I'm waiting for the successor to the 5D...
Posted by Kalin Wilson on August 20, 2007 at 12:20 PM
Kewl! The 40D looks like a nice upgrade from my 20D - tempting. I'll have to keep an eye on those 5Ds too. Too much fun!
Posted by Derek Sedillo on August 20, 2007 at 12:23 PM
Yes,
The Highlight Tone Priority looks interesting along with Digic3 and 14 bit processing.
I look forward to seeing if these new features actually improve DR and IQ over older bodies.
It will also be interesting to see how the 1DS III 21MP images stack up to much more expensive MF digital backs as well as film MF & LF images.
Posted by Derek Sedillo on August 20, 2007 at 12:29 PM
While the current 5D is an awesome camera, I think the 5D II has the potential to really take things up a notch with the latest processor advancements. Also I think the FF sensor has room to grow in terms of resolution with the 1DS III as case in point.
I don't think the 5D II will be announced until after Canon has a chance to capture 1DS III customers. Because with an improved 5D at around 1/4 the price it could easily cut into 1DS sales. Of course the 1DS series has pro features not intended in the 5D series.
This is what I've been waiting for, hopefully the s version won't have the AF issues reported with the 1DMkIII. I'll be getting one of these s dudes as soon as it reaches marketing status, which looks to be in time for my trip to Antarctica in Jan. I will be selling my 1DMkII soon, if anyone is interested.
Posted by Derek Sedillo on August 20, 2007 at 1:17 PM
Cool Don,
Maybe you can be the first on our forum to report back on this bad boy after some real world usage in the Antarctica!
- Derek
Posted by Scott Borger on August 20, 2007 at 1:20 PM
21 MP, that is some big news. Now if I could only afford one.
Posted by Nat Coalson on August 20, 2007 at 2:26 PM
Where is the smiley icon for :drool: :drool: :drool:
Seriously, these appear to be some of the best DSLRs ever produced... can't wait to get my hands on 'em!
Posted by George Hager on August 20, 2007 at 2:58 PM
And now, when they make lenses that can resolve 21 megs of information won't that be dandy? I'm sure they're working on it. I would like to see the resolving power of lenses vs. the resolving power of the new sensor to see exactly where the break point is. I'm thinking 21 megs might be over the top for most lenses. It will be interesting to see how much difference there is between the 1DsMkII and 1DsMkIII - that is how much is gained by a larger sensor vs. the lose due to the resolutiuon of the lens. I suspect there will be some gain, but is there ever enough for us photographers?
Posted by Paul Beiser on August 20, 2007 at 3:32 PM
Actually, George I believe the pixel pitch on the 21Meg Canon sensor is bigger than the pixel pitch on the current 10Meg Canon sensor in the 400D.
Posted by Paul Beiser on August 20, 2007 at 3:42 PM
One thing I forgot to add, though, in my haste of trying to really do some work vs drool over all the new cameras , is that of course the Full Frame sensors present a lot of challenges to lenses beyond just resolving power. Sorry about that!
Posted by Craig Schultz on August 20, 2007 at 4:19 PM
And now, when they make lenses that can resolve 21 megs of information won't that be dandy?
I see lots of people saying this, but if this was indeed the case then Canon would have dropped the anti-aliasing (i.e. low pass) filter on the sensor. The reason for that filter is that the lenses CAN out-resolve the sensor and the filter needs to remove the frequencies above which the sensor can resolve. Until that filter is removed from the sensors, rest assured, the sensor is not the strongest component in the imaging chain.
Craig
Posted by Nat Coalson on August 20, 2007 at 4:50 PM
Currently, the very best SLR lenses (a la certain Canon L series) can match sensor resolution around 20M and no more.... with cheap lenses, fuhgeddaboudit.
With the current lens and sensor technology, the 1Ds Mark III is about as far as it can go with SLR. But I understand that lens AND sensor technology will make some major leaps in the next few years. (I'm still wondering who will come out with an entirely new design for a "camera".)
Right now, medium format digital reigns supreme as far as image quality goes. Too bad it's still out of reach for the vast majority of us.
All in all, though, these are good times... enjoy!
Posted by Mel Ladewig on August 20, 2007 at 4:57 PM
I have to agree with Craig.
I believe the pixel pitch on my XT is equal to or smaller than the pixels on the 1DSMkII. My 50/1.4 easily outresolves the sensor and causes aliasing errors even with the AA filter. I'm pretty sure that it would do fine on the 1DSMkIII and I'm sure this isn't the only lens for which this would be the case. As Paul mentioned, the full frame sensor still seems to push the performance of wide angle lenses.
Regarding the point of this post. I'd love to have one of those fancy 1DsIII, but I didn't win the powerball, so I don't see that happening any time soon. The 40D has enough going for it that I'm very strongly considering it though. I don't expect the 8-10MP jump to do much for me, but the larger buffer and some of the other combined features are enough to make me want to buy it. But it also makes me wonder what the 5DN or 5DmkII or whatever they call it is going to look like. I suspect that the weather resistance will make it to the next iteration of 5D.
Posted by Jesse Speer on August 20, 2007 at 5:11 PM
Must ... have ... 1dsIII.
Anyone need a kidney?
Posted by George Hager on August 20, 2007 at 5:14 PM
Craig,
Do you have any place I can find out this information? I know lots of lenses resolve only 35 lines or so on the edges which would be a waste of a good sensor. Do you know of any source that describes the resolution of the new sensor or even the one in the 1DsMkII? Just curious if the industry isn't getting ahead of itself a little. You can jump in here any time Guy and help educate me. I know you're alot more familiar with this stuff than I am. At what point does the resolution of the sensor exceed the current batch of lenses? I've read it could be over 40 Megs and I've read it could be over 300 Megs. Problem I have is I just can't see how most current sensors don't achieve greater resolution than many lenses at the edges. Any explaination would be helpful.
Posted by Todd Caudle on August 20, 2007 at 6:26 PM
Perhaps you didn't also see today's announcement of the newly designed 14mm f2.8L lens. At least they're trying. Should be more lenses of this type in the pipeline, but they're pricey. http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082008canonef14mmii.asp
Posted by Paul Beiser on August 20, 2007 at 6:33 PM
George,
I spend way too much time myself looking at things on the net about this topic, with some experts saying that current glass is not up to snuff and other experts claiming just the opposite. I should be out more like Todd, Erik, Guy, Darren, Jack, Brent, Jody, Scott, Nat, etc and all the other great photographers here shooting more
My personal opinion, based on what I have read, is that we have a ways to go before sensors outresolve lenses (there are of course, lots of issues still with image circle in the current crop of FF lenses).
Of course, in the future, we will be able to fix it in LightRoom
Posted by Derek Sedillo on August 20, 2007 at 7:50 PM
Jesse wrote:
Must ... have ... 1dsIII.
Anyone need a kidney?
Ok, Jesse has been properly brainwashed and sucked into Canon's new vortex!!!LOL..
Resistance is futile, join the Borg...
Now if some of us poor saps can just be patient enough to wait for the new 5D II things will get even more interesting.
Way to go Canon!!! I'm sure Nikon will also have an answer. Isn't competition great?
Posted by Stan Rose on August 20, 2007 at 11:18 PM
ive been hoping against hope that the announcement would be for the 5DII or 7D, but the rumors have been pretty solid for months that it would be the 40D or 1DsII. im not sure i can wait for Spring, ive waited too long already. nearly 4 lbs with battery is too heavy, which leaves me with few options--i should stop thinking about it and just do it!
Posted by Todd Caudle on August 21, 2007 at 12:13 AM
No, tennis is too tiring, ill take the old star trek repeats.
I see M Adamus among others is already placing his order...
but that extra 2 pounds of camera could be much better filled with something truly useful...like beer!
Posted by Scott Bacon on August 21, 2007 at 9:47 AM
Todd wrote:
Perhaps you didn't also see today's announcement of the newly designed 14mm f2.8L lens. At least they're trying. Should be more lenses of this type in the pipeline, but they're pricey.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082008canonef14mmii.asp
Holy cow! I can't really imagine myself needing a 14mm, especially after a move to a FF sensor, but that is one sweet lens!! I don't think I've ever seen a 14 element prime!
Posted by Craig Schultz on August 21, 2007 at 12:14 PM
George, from what I have found on the web and my own Canon XT and XTi testing is this: The sensor resolution in line pairs per mm (lpmm) is approximately 80% of the pixel pitch divided by 2. So, the XTi has a lpmm = 3888/22.2/2*.8 = 70 (this is the highest resolution sensor Canon currently sells, at least until the 40D goes on sale). The new 1DsMkIII is 5616/36/2*.8 = 62. I took the sensor dimensions (in both mm and pixels) off the dpreview.com site. I tested my own cameras with Canon 28-70 2.8L and 70-200 2.8L lenses, so I know that number is accurate.
As for the lenses, I don't have any definitive source for this, but a good place to compare lens resolution test shots is: Lens Tests. This site will give you 100% crops from their tests, but won't give lpmm numbers if that is what you wanted.
As for the anti-aliasing filter. I have read that that filter costs from 10-33% of the cost of sensor when you factor in the engineering time. No one but Canon would know this for sure, but I don't think they would put that extra engineering time and manufacturing complexity into something that was no longer necessary. Plus, if the sensor was truly resolution limited by the lens the filter would just degrade the image more with additional unnecessary blurring; but why would any reasonable company design something like that?
Since the XTi still has that filter too, you know that a 1DsMkIV at 27MP will still have one also. So what does all this mean? My take is that the majority of the L lenses Canon sells resolve more than these sensors. At all points on the full frame sensor? Probably not, but that's the main reason to stay away from full frame cameras and probably one of the reasons Nikon doesn't sell any.
Posted by Joshua Hardin on August 21, 2007 at 12:28 PM
Derek wrote:
Way to go Canon!!! I'm sure Nikon will also have an answer. Isn't competition great?
Rumor is that Nikon will be also announcing two new cameras at the end of this week. They might be a D300 and something targeted at sports shooters (perhaps something like the D2H, now in the D3 series). Nikon blogger Thom Hogan alludes that Nikon shooters may have to wait a few months before the company fires back with a megapixel-loaded response to Canon's 1ds mkIII though. http://www.bythom.com/2007comments.htm.
I've been tempted big time now to switch to Canon, but I might wait to see what Nikon will come up with soon. It will take a long time to save enough $$$$ for a MkIII anyway. Yes, the competition is great. We are coming upon some interesting times for digital photography.
Posted by Tony Bouchard on August 21, 2007 at 1:59 PM
For what most of us shoot, doesn't the Mamiya MFD cam make more sense than the 1DsIII, at about the same price? I don't want the weight of the 1D series - I'm looking forward to a new 5D with some of the same tech.
Posted by George Hager on August 21, 2007 at 2:21 PM
Thank you Craig. That is exactly what I was looking for. Looks like the current lenses are good in the middle but a bit weak on the edges especially at large and small aperatures. That will give the manufacturers something to shoot for and that can only help all of us. I think Paul has it right. Worry less about equipment and get out there and shoot. I was just a little curious. If I can ever afford one of the new toys this information may alter how I shoot a little.
Posted by Craig Schultz on August 21, 2007 at 3:13 PM
Tony, what I'm hoping to see is a 1.3 crop sensor at the pixel pitch of the XTi, in the body of the XTi. That thing is so light it practically floats, yet it's plenty sturdy enough to take out hiking which means you can take quality lenses that may weight more or take more of them. Plus the slight crop takes those poor edges off the imaging circle, best of both worlds if you ask me. But, all the really nice EF-S lenses they have been putting out lately seems to indicate that 1.6 and full frame may be the sensor sizes that Canon keeps around long term.
A 4+ pound camera is a non-starter for anyone wanting to do some hiking with the thing. And besides the weight, that camera is a monstrosity in the size department too.
Posted by Jesse Speer on August 21, 2007 at 3:39 PM
Derek. I was really poking fun of my own initial reaction - which involved wiping drool off my monitor. The Pavlov pixel peeping effect I guess.
If I had a real life need for 21 megapixels, I'd be very excited - from an admittedly spoiled perspective of already owning a 5d. I find that other features really have nothing to do with my end result. I'll be shooting my current 5d system for many years, I'm sure. It sure was a very useful upgrade way back when. If I owned a XXd or Rebel, I'd be very excited about the next 5d version and/or the impending drop in 5d prices. For us SLR types, it's more than we'd ever need. At least for me, when it comes to a combo of image quality, features and weight. I don't mind swabbing my sensor every now and then, my blue skies are still buttery smooth and I actually enjoy thinking about exposure. Oh my, that sounded "old fartish"!
Yeah, Live View is for wussies.
Posted by David A Bliss on August 21, 2007 at 7:32 PM
When the 1D Mark III was announced, I admit it intriqued me. While it was still out of my "what the heck" price range, it had the features of a pro level film SLR (fps, focus points, metering, number of shots before buffering...). I am dissapointed to read about the AF problems that seem to plague it, though I probably won't be shooting much sports in high sun. I also liked the 1.3 sensor. That would give me wider angle with my current lenses, and I don't really need the FF.
There are some nice features on the 1Ds Mark III, but other than the 21 MP, there isn't anything that I like better than the 1D Mark III, and at $8000, it is even out of my "if I save up for awhile maybe I can justify it" price range.
The 40D actually has me interested. It is definitely a step up from the 30D (unlike the 30D from the 20D), and is close enough to the point where price vs features would get me to upgrade. I have been shooting the 10D since shortly after it's release, and have been patiently waiting for an upgrade I felt I could justify. This might be it. I am going to wait until market models have been reviewed, and if it does well, this might be the camera that gets me to spend some money.
Of course I am still saving up for $3000 worth of glass, and the glass will probably come first!
Posted by Derek Sedillo on August 21, 2007 at 9:14 PM
David,
I am in the same boat as you. I have been shooting with my 'good old' 10D since it first came out. I am also ready to upgrade.
I will be very interested to see if Highlight Tone Priority along with Digic3 and 14 bit processing are more than marketing additions. In other words do these features actually contribute in producing superior IQ when compared to the 30D images at the same settings.
Also I am very tempted to upgrade to the 5D, but really want to try and wait for the 5D II which will hopefully come out next year some time. The hard part is waiting. But I have waited this long so ... we will see.
Posted by David A Bliss on August 22, 2007 at 12:49 AM
Derek, the 5D just didn't interest me for the price. I don't need a FF sensor that much, and while sensors have come a long way since the 10D, there wasn't really anything else the camera offered that made me want to spend the money. I am curious as to what Canon might do with a 5D upgrade, but it would have to be a good upgrade, and not just dust removal and a larger LCD
As you can tell, I don't chase technology, and it takes a certain amount of features vs price point to get me interested, but at the same time, if I wait for the "perfect" camera, I may never buy another one!
Discussion
35 repliesYou can check the specs out here:
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082009canoneos1dsmarkiii.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082010canoneos40d.asp
I was thinking that same thing with regards to the 5D cost. Since the 40D price dropped and many features are now more current than the 5D, the next 5D II will hopefully drop in price. There is already speculation as to when the 5D II will be introduced. I think it is still going to be a bit of a wait - next year some time probably.
I think I am going to wait for the dust to settle before deciding on getting a 5D/5D II.
The Highlight Tone Priority looks interesting along with Digic3 and 14 bit processing.
I look forward to seeing if these new features actually improve DR and IQ over older bodies.
It will also be interesting to see how the 1DS III 21MP images stack up to much more expensive MF digital backs as well as film MF & LF images.
I don't think the 5D II will be announced until after Canon has a chance to capture 1DS III customers. Because with an improved 5D at around 1/4 the price it could easily cut into 1DS sales. Of course the 1DS series has pro features not intended in the 5D series.
Maybe you can be the first on our forum to report back on this bad boy after some real world usage in the Antarctica!
- Derek
Seriously, these appear to be some of the best DSLRs ever produced... can't wait to get my hands on 'em!
I see lots of people saying this, but if this was indeed the case then Canon would have dropped the anti-aliasing (i.e. low pass) filter on the sensor. The reason for that filter is that the lenses CAN out-resolve the sensor and the filter needs to remove the frequencies above which the sensor can resolve. Until that filter is removed from the sensors, rest assured, the sensor is not the strongest component in the imaging chain.
Craig
With the current lens and sensor technology, the 1Ds Mark III is about as far as it can go with SLR. But I understand that lens AND sensor technology will make some major leaps in the next few years. (I'm still wondering who will come out with an entirely new design for a "camera".)
Right now, medium format digital reigns supreme as far as image quality goes. Too bad it's still out of reach for the vast majority of us.
All in all, though, these are good times... enjoy!
I believe the pixel pitch on my XT is equal to or smaller than the pixels on the 1DSMkII. My 50/1.4 easily outresolves the sensor and causes aliasing errors even with the AA filter. I'm pretty sure that it would do fine on the 1DSMkIII and I'm sure this isn't the only lens for which this would be the case. As Paul mentioned, the full frame sensor still seems to push the performance of wide angle lenses.
Regarding the point of this post. I'd love to have one of those fancy 1DsIII, but I didn't win the powerball, so I don't see that happening any time soon. The 40D has enough going for it that I'm very strongly considering it though. I don't expect the 8-10MP jump to do much for me, but the larger buffer and some of the other combined features are enough to make me want to buy it. But it also makes me wonder what the 5DN or 5DmkII or whatever they call it is going to look like. I suspect that the weather resistance will make it to the next iteration of 5D.
Anyone need a kidney?
Do you have any place I can find out this information? I know lots of lenses resolve only 35 lines or so on the edges which would be a waste of a good sensor. Do you know of any source that describes the resolution of the new sensor or even the one in the 1DsMkII? Just curious if the industry isn't getting ahead of itself a little. You can jump in here any time Guy and help educate me. I know you're alot more familiar with this stuff than I am. At what point does the resolution of the sensor exceed the current batch of lenses? I've read it could be over 40 Megs and I've read it could be over 300 Megs. Problem I have is I just can't see how most current sensors don't achieve greater resolution than many lenses at the edges. Any explaination would be helpful.
http://www.dpreview.com/news/0708/07082008canonef14mmii.asp
I spend way too much time myself looking at things on the net about this topic, with some experts saying that current glass is not up to snuff and other experts claiming just the opposite. I should be out more like Todd, Erik, Guy, Darren, Jack, Brent, Jody, Scott, Nat, etc and all the other great photographers here shooting more
My personal opinion, based on what I have read, is that we have a ways to go before sensors outresolve lenses (there are of course, lots of issues still with image circle in the current crop of FF lenses).
Of course, in the future, we will be able to fix it in LightRoom
Ok, Jesse has been properly brainwashed and sucked into Canon's new vortex!!!LOL..
Resistance is futile, join the Borg...
Now if some of us poor saps can just be patient enough to wait for the new 5D II things will get even more interesting.
Way to go Canon!!! I'm sure Nikon will also have an answer. Isn't competition great?
Bjorn?
I see M Adamus among others is already placing his order...
but that extra 2 pounds of camera could be much better filled with something truly useful...like beer!
As for the lenses, I don't have any definitive source for this, but a good place to compare lens resolution test shots is: Lens Tests. This site will give you 100% crops from their tests, but won't give lpmm numbers if that is what you wanted.
As for the anti-aliasing filter. I have read that that filter costs from 10-33% of the cost of sensor when you factor in the engineering time. No one but Canon would know this for sure, but I don't think they would put that extra engineering time and manufacturing complexity into something that was no longer necessary. Plus, if the sensor was truly resolution limited by the lens the filter would just degrade the image more with additional unnecessary blurring; but why would any reasonable company design something like that?
Since the XTi still has that filter too, you know that a 1DsMkIV at 27MP will still have one also. So what does all this mean? My take is that the majority of the L lenses Canon sells resolve more than these sensors. At all points on the full frame sensor? Probably not, but that's the main reason to stay away from full frame cameras and probably one of the reasons Nikon doesn't sell any.
Rumor is that Nikon will be also announcing two new cameras at the end of this week. They might be a D300 and something targeted at sports shooters (perhaps something like the D2H, now in the D3 series). Nikon blogger Thom Hogan alludes that Nikon shooters may have to wait a few months before the company fires back with a megapixel-loaded response to Canon's 1ds mkIII though. http://www.bythom.com/2007comments.htm.
I've been tempted big time now to switch to Canon, but I might wait to see what Nikon will come up with soon. It will take a long time to save enough $$$$ for a MkIII anyway. Yes, the competition is great. We are coming upon some interesting times for digital photography.
A 4+ pound camera is a non-starter for anyone wanting to do some hiking with the thing. And besides the weight, that camera is a monstrosity in the size department too.
If I had a real life need for 21 megapixels, I'd be very excited - from an admittedly spoiled perspective of already owning a 5d. I find that other features really have nothing to do with my end result. I'll be shooting my current 5d system for many years, I'm sure. It sure was a very useful upgrade way back when. If I owned a XXd or Rebel, I'd be very excited about the next 5d version and/or the impending drop in 5d prices. For us SLR types, it's more than we'd ever need. At least for me, when it comes to a combo of image quality, features and weight. I don't mind swabbing my sensor every now and then, my blue skies are still buttery smooth and I actually enjoy thinking about exposure. Oh my, that sounded "old fartish"!
Yeah, Live View is for wussies.
There are some nice features on the 1Ds Mark III, but other than the 21 MP, there isn't anything that I like better than the 1D Mark III, and at $8000, it is even out of my "if I save up for awhile maybe I can justify it" price range.
The 40D actually has me interested. It is definitely a step up from the 30D (unlike the 30D from the 20D), and is close enough to the point where price vs features would get me to upgrade. I have been shooting the 10D since shortly after it's release, and have been patiently waiting for an upgrade I felt I could justify. This might be it. I am going to wait until market models have been reviewed, and if it does well, this might be the camera that gets me to spend some money.
Of course I am still saving up for $3000 worth of glass, and the glass will probably come first!
I am in the same boat as you. I have been shooting with my 'good old' 10D since it first came out. I am also ready to upgrade.
I will be very interested to see if Highlight Tone Priority along with Digic3 and 14 bit processing are more than marketing additions. In other words do these features actually contribute in producing superior IQ when compared to the 30D images at the same settings.
I posted a question regarding the actual effectiveness of Highlight Tone Priority on DPReview. I got some interesting responses from 1D MkIII users here:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1032&message=24459084
Also I am very tempted to upgrade to the 5D, but really want to try and wait for the 5D II which will hopefully come out next year some time. The hard part is waiting. But I have waited this long so ... we will see.
As you can tell, I don't chase technology, and it takes a certain amount of features vs price point to get me interested, but at the same time, if I wait for the "perfect" camera, I may never buy another one!