Background information: Long-time members of this site may remember that I was an extremely active participant in the photo galleries at one time (circa 2002-04)--especially ESS and, to a lesser extent, Man & Nature. To be honest, for the most part, I don't think the process of having my images critiqued improved my photography (which needed plenty of improving, BTW) very much. That's no knock on the critique concept; having my photos critiqued simply didn't seem to help me very much. What did help--tremendously--as it turned out was the process of critiquing the photos of others. It made me view images from different perspectives and, most saliently, it forced me to go through the process of identifying what it was about a photo that I liked and what I didn't. Transferring that to my own photography was a tremendous experience that--IMO--paid immediate dividends. In that sense, NPN has been as--if not more--influential on my photography as any other source and for that I'm grateful (and I said, so, publicly in an open note on this forum three or four years ago).
At some point, in 2004, it occurred to me that I was no longer posting images in the galleries to have them critiqued. It's not that I objected to critiques, they simply weren't the motivation for posting the images in the first place. I was, in effect, "showing off" what I thought were good images. Once I realized that this is what I was doing, it struck me that this might be something of an abuse of the image gallery critique philosophy. And so I stopped posting images but kept right on critiquing those of others. I did this for a couple of months until I received a private e-mail from another site participant who was new to NPN who politely, but rather firmly, suggested that if I wasn't going to post my own images (this person hadn't started participating until after I stopped posting images; this as also before I had my own Web site) I shouldn't critique others. The rationale, as expressed by this individual, was that without being able to view my images it was impossible to put my critiques in a meaningful context, thereby rendering them worthless...or worse. I had to admit that this point of view hadn't occurred to me; I conceded that this person had a point and that I'd have to give it some serious thought.
Coincidentally, and for reasons that had nothing to do with NPN specifically or photography generally, I took a hiatus from the site. Some things had cropped up in my life that upended my normal routine for many months and a new expression of inertia shook me from the habit of checking NPN regularly. My membership here lapsed and, regrettably, I didn't renew it, reasoning that I wasn't utilizing the site anymore.
Fast forward to late summer of 2007. With our sixth anniversary approaching, my wife asked me if there was something she could get me as a small gift. I asked if she'd renew my NPN membership; I'd always regretted letting it lapse, particularly in light of how significant this site and its participants had been in the development of my photographic skills. She purchased the renewal and here I am again.
But the point of this lengthy post--and I apologize that it's gotten so out of hand--remains the question re critiquing and posting in the image galleries.
Please understand--I'm not asking for permission to post images or to post critiques without posting images of my own. I've read the posting guidelines and clearly I'd be within the rules whatever I chose to do. What I'm asking about, I suppose, is the culture of the site, the standard operating procedure...and, generally speaking, people's preferences. Is the "showcasing" of images reasonable? Does it matter if soliciting critiques isn't my main motivation for posting? And, on the other side of the ledger, do people mind if someone critiques without posting his/her own images in the galleries or was that participant who e-mailed my three years ago right? Is it bad form to critique without posting?
I appreciate your thoughts on these matters and, regardless of the consensus, I'm extremely pleased to renew a more active participation on NPN after three-odd years in the figurative wilderness.
Many thanks.
Posted by Steve Foss on September 5, 2007 at 12:40 PM
That's a thoroughly thought out post, Kerry.
I don't identify with the logic of the one who e-mailed you. The value of a critique has nothing to do with whether the critic posts his or her own work, as far as I'm concerned. I feel this way partly because photographers view photos very differently than consumers, and so critques from fellow photographers can help from a technical point of view but don't have much value to me when it comes to aesthetics. When I view a photo I like to make sure my photographer's hat is off and that I'm wearing the hat of wonder, of insipiration, the hat that allows me to be moved by an image without picking up the flaws. We know that photographers see the flaws in others' images because wey've trained ourselves to look for them in our own work. We also know that the average buyer of photographic prints doesn't recognize the imperfections we see as a matter of course.
I guess that's my way of saying I find the critique boards valuable for techs but not so valuable for assessing whether I've composed a moving image. If I have technical questions, I don't hestiate to post an image within the critique forums, and I listen closely to advice given there. Even then I don't need to see the critic's work somewhere else to value the feedback. For me, one does not depend on the other.
I do, however, take inspiration and motivation from the fine work posted by some others on the crituqe forums. I see much of what's posted there, including much of my own work, as technically sound but fairly routine, but every once in awhile an image comes across that is simply wonderful, a statement so singular that I can't help be moved by it. So, regarding your thoughts on the motivation for posting images, I'll add that even if a shooter posts an image that he/she is proud of and the main motivation isn't for the critiques, I believe that image has a different sort of value, because we all learn by seeing the work of others, and a stunning image that is perfect, or darn near so, and is posted as a bit of a pat on the back for one's self will still serve to inspire others. Inspiration can be in short supply, and is a worthwhile thing.
Posted by John W. Wall on September 5, 2007 at 12:49 PM
I'd be interested to see, just for the sake of scientific interest you understand, critiques where the photographer and critic were both anonymous.
Posted by Richard Wong on September 5, 2007 at 1:04 PM
As long as you have a link to your website or some sort of portfolio to identify the quality of your work online then I don't see a problem with commenting significantly more than you post. I mean look at my image post to comment ratio. If you're a paying member and not hurting anyone then I say do as you please.
Here's an interesting insight on the process, offered on behalf of all the viewers who don't turn into reviewers. When I am teaching a class I usually refer students to this site and the galleries as a learning tool. I've followed up with them, asking how it worked out. Lumped together, all their responses go something like this:
It's inspiring to see the photos, but educational to read the comments. They are really interested in seeing how others react to a photo, and inevitably weigh their own reactions against the reviewers. That's another learning step. Most don't feel confident enough to add their own review, but they always react to both the reviews and the photos.
Moving across the table to the photographer's viewpoint, I think it's important to put some value on your posts for their contribution to others- in addition to any value you get from the reviews. That's the old teacher in me speaking, but in the sense that NPN is a "community," posting photos and sponsoring thoughtful discussion can be a community service in addition to garnering help for the individual photographer who posts a photo.
My personal motives for posting run much along the same lines as Steve's. I seldom post simply for display, instead posting problem photos when I want advice or want to demo something I think others will be interested in. Not to say that posting for display is a bad thing. Back to my comment about community service in fostering discussion.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on September 5, 2007 at 1:14 PM
"I wasn't going to post my own images (this person hadn't started participating until after I stopped posting images; this as also before I had my own Web site) I shouldn't critique others. The rationale, as expressed by this individual, was that without being able to view my images it was impossible to put my critiques in a meaningful context, thereby rendering them worthless...or worse."
Let's see if I understand this e-mailers attitude correctly. Because you are not well-known (here or nationally or internationally), your opinion is worth nothing. Uhm...
Kerry, just post and don't worry about it. If you say something half-baked, we'll let you know.
I just took a quick look at your website. You have some nice work there. I'll have to get back to look at it more carefully.
It is good to see you around this parts again.
Posted by Kent Staubus on September 5, 2007 at 1:51 PM
Please understand--I'm not asking for permission to post images or to post critiques without posting images of my own. I've read the posting guidelines and clearly I'd be within the rules whatever I chose to do. What I'm asking about, I suppose, is the culture of the site, the standard operating procedure...and, generally speaking, people's preferences. Is the "showcasing" of images reasonable? Does it matter if soliciting critiques isn't my main motivation for posting? And, on the other side of the ledger, do people mind if someone critiques without posting his/her own images in the galleries or was that participant who e-mailed my three years ago right? Is it bad form to critique without posting?
As senior moderator of the Man & Nature forum, I welcome you back. My own opinion is the member who criticized you for not posting many images of your own was out of line. I am grateful this was done via email rather than on the forum though as I would have deleted the post. My POV is that actually we need more critiques than we do photos. People seem always ready to put their own photos up, but more reluctant to take time with the photos from others. Anyone who takes the time to write some helpful comments on photos in the Man & Nature forum most certainly has my blessing, FWIW. And, my thanks.
I'm glad we have you back, and your comments have always been a great addition here IMO. I like to think that the culture of the site is one where people with many different opinions and angles on things can come together and have a civil discussion about it. Hopefully we don't always agree, either. That would be boring! Welcome back.
Kent in SD
Posted by Bill Chambers on September 5, 2007 at 2:16 PM
Welcome back Kerry. I see it in rather simple terms. You paid your dues and you can exercise the privileges of membership as you see fit. Comment and not post, comment and post, your choice. The only alternative I don't personally care for are those who post but never comment, but that's their privilege as well I suppose. NPN is a great learning resource, and we all learn using different methods. Use the methods that work for you, and don't worry about the peanut gallery.
I can relate to your opinion - the showing off-factor. I am quite sure that many people here post images that they are proud of and they want them to be seen by fellow photographers - I think that is ok, for at least two reasons. First of all because it inspires the less experienced and less skilled photographers - me.
Second, if a photographer would post a photo with obvious flaws and he knows of these flaws - of what benefit a critique is then ?.
I dont think it is bad to critique without posting, but the opposite is not so nice...
So, it's the very good photo that can be improved, and sometimes it can only be improved by the critical eyes of others. When I post here, I mostly post photo's that I think are well done. Very often the critique helped to make them better.
Posted by Rick Dunn on September 5, 2007 at 2:51 PM
Bill captured my thoughts exactly. The only thing I'd add is, why not still post your photos? It adds to the learning opportunities for those who are learning as you did - by having images to think about and critique.
Posted by Bruce Painter on September 5, 2007 at 4:05 PM
I don't see anything wrong with you not posting you photos for critique if that's what you want.
Like you I feel I have learned more by viewing and commenting on others work and reading the comments of the others here. I have found it interesting that a lot of the time now the things I notice in an image will be commented on by others when I read the critiques. I also find myself several times not posting the thoughts I have when I find that it will not be adding anything that has not been said by others. Maybe I should go ahead and post my comments anyway. I do not comment as much as I should maybe but way more than I post photos. (Partly because I have not been out with the camera a lot lately) I believe it was Bill who incouraged me to start commenting more as a way for the people here to get to know me and it has helped me to view things differently and also to receive more critiques on my last few images.
There is no way to know why the person who e-mailed you felt the way they did, but I have found myself wanting to look at the photos of someone who gave a critique of my photos before. For me it is not that if I don't like there work that it makes the comment invalid but that if the comment is something that could be subjective I want to see if I can find visual reference to what they said in their photos and see if it is a style which I would like to emulate.
Bruce
Posted by Peter Conway on September 5, 2007 at 4:12 PM
Since I am a fairly new member I cannot really speak to the "culture" here but only to my own needs and wants. I am really quite shocked that anyone would ask that you not post your thoughts about their images. The more comments my posts generate the better I like it. It's the photos that nobody even cares to comment on that are the toughest on the ego. I am learning (I hope) and thus truly welcome the critical reviews, I think they do help me.
I really appreciate though how much I learn from seeing other people's work along with the techs of how they did it. I will sit and look at some images for a long time and imagine the conditions that led to the shot. There are some people that post what seems to me to be flawless work photo after photo. They receive their due accolades, and I suppose are just showing off their work, but for those of us striving to get where they are the photos are invaluable to study.
So, please critque away and also share your work even if you are not looking for help!
What I like about NPN is that we have image posters and image critiquers. I learn from both. I don't expect there to be complete overlap in the two groups. I also agree completely that taking the time to verbalize one's thoughts about a photograph is a great exercise.
What constantly amazes me about NPN is the high signal to noise ratio. There are very few "bad" photographs posted here. There is very little of the all-to-common internet nastiness. What is in that NPN kool-aid, Jim?
Pete D.
Posted by Leann Greene on September 5, 2007 at 4:34 PM
In one way I can see how someone might feel more familiar with a comment if they thought you were also "putting yourself out there" by posting as well. That line of thought is discriminating because it's like saying unless you paint you shouldn't have thoughts or opinions about some one else's painting-that would kind of destroy the whole culture of galleries and exhibitions. I know you are a photographer but that's not the point. Welcome back.
Posted by Kah Kit Yoong on September 5, 2007 at 7:34 PM
Welcome (back) to NPN. I have just renewed by membership so I must be about to hit my 1 year mark here. I have found it to be a very helpful in improving my photography. Many photos I were perfectly happy with at the time benefited from minor & not so minor tweaks suggested by members. The act of studying the work here & trying to understand the creative processes behind them have served to inspire and broaden my own vision. I have found that giving critiques improves assessment of my own work. Thus everyone benefits from critiques whether you're posting your own photos or not. Look forward to seeing some of your work though.
Posted by Roger Rouch on September 5, 2007 at 8:38 PM
Kerry, I believe my older memory recalls your nice images. I hope you'll continue to post a few here as it's nice to see other's techniques and interpretations of nature scenes, regardless of the motivation. This is what has helped my own photography make some improvements. I have to admit that when others offer critiques or opinions on the photos I post, I am occationally interested in that person's style or experience and hope to see a few images online somewhere just to see where the person is coming from. You could probably easily satisfy that with a link to your website or a simple NPN portfolio.
At any rate, I've found the NPN group a quite easy going bunch and would imagine you could make your own reasonable guidelines to get the most from your time and membership. I'm pretty much with Bill on these things.
Posted by Bill Stice on September 5, 2007 at 9:49 PM
Kerry, I certainly remember you on NPN and I'd agree with most of what has been said above. I read a lot of the posts, critique some of the images but post few images my self. I just don't have the time to do much more. I do value reading the critiques that others write and certainly valued yours in the past. Welcome back and as many have said above I believe the person who made the comment was out of line. You are a member and should be able to choose how your time is spent.
Kerry, I believe there's two types of people - there are some who learn by receiving inputs from others, and there's others who learn by analyzing other's work. The latter types are sort of self-learning ... I believe you fall in that category. I tend to be equally balanced between the two (I think).
I started posting here simply because I hung around here for a while and realized that there's some very nuanced opinions put forward by postors, and that they were giving some very specific inputs on how certain images felt good and certain felt bad. I thought this was serious stuff, a far cry from the other fora out there, where most of the chaps are (IMO) busy scratching each-other's backs.
I wanted to get some serious feedback on my photos, and how to improve them. I felt I was working too hard and not having much to show for. Joining NPN and getting feedback was probably the best thing I ever did after taking up landscape photography. Once in a while I do love to boast off my prized catch, which, frankly speaking, doesn't happen too often, since I rarely have anything spectacular to show.
I also participate in commenting on other's photos a bit more regularly, since I believe I owe them an honest critique if I am myself asking them to do me a favor.
On the other hand there's a few chaps out here who simply post their photos as "advertisements", but never ever comment on other's photographs.
C'est la vie. Welcome back, BTW.
Posted by Basil Greber on September 6, 2007 at 4:46 AM
Interesting post and interesting thoughts, Kerry.
Question a) - using NPN as image showcase. Well, I think we're all guilty of that to a certain extent. I certainly am. I usually don't even bother to post those images that are not good. I post those that I think are good - and I still get valuable feedback most of the time. So in my opinion, showing only your best images is in itself no contradiction to the critique concept.
Question b) - clearly, as long as the critique is good and thoughtful, it doesn't really matter from whom it comes. Of course, it's great to have a very good photographer giving critique, but in the end, what matters is the quality of the comment, not who made it. For example, I very much value the comments and critiques my girlfriend makes. She's not as much into photography as I am, doesn't care at all about what fancy lens, tripod, or remote release setup I used, but IMO, her judgements are valuable nevertheless. You needn't be a photographer to distinguish between an outstanding shot and a poor one (after all, we photograph for other, non-photographer, people to see and appreciate our work, right?).
Basil
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 6, 2007 at 7:02 AM
Kerry, welcome back! The previous comments sum up my feelings quite well - please feel free to participate in any manner you feel comfortable with.
BTW (and FWIW), I don't post many photos either simply because my "field time" is now much more limited. But that in no way diminishes my enjoyment of participating in these forums and galleries, and I hope it does not for you either.
If you ever wish to share any suggestions, comments or complaints, the buck stops here - you know where to find me!
Posted by Keith Anderson on September 6, 2007 at 7:49 AM
Kerry I know how you feel, I don't post many images and some of the comments I have left I have felt the poster has said " and who the hell are you to comment when you don't post images" So I stopped also. I very very rarely even LOOK in the galleries any more. When i do I see the same thing over and over again, those that use it as a showcase get massive views and comments and those that need the help get nothing.
They should be called Image Showcase not Image Critique, but that's the nature of the beast I guess.
One thing I will say is how many art judges are actually artist. You shouldn't have to be a well known, highly viewed photographer to beable to give a comment...but it seems it helps
Posted by Merle Cook on September 6, 2007 at 11:17 AM
Kerry, I am new to the board, but not new to photography. I started "playing" with cameras in the late '50's and am still learning. One of the ways I learn is to look at the photos of others. Some inspire me in a direction different from the one I am on, and others push me to go farther in a familiar area. I post shots I am happy with and hope the members can show me how to improve my efforts. I also learn from the critiques of others shots. Any information from any source will help me with the craft. Even if it only affirms what I already know.
I don't care if the person doing the critique has posted or not, as long as the critique is honest and constructive.
Posted by Bill Chambers on September 6, 2007 at 1:20 PM
Hi Keith, I'm afraid I would have to disagree with you in your perception of the galleries and critiques. Granted, I don't visit all the galleries. I spend 98% of my time in ESS, but honestly, I can't recall ever seeing an attitude of "Who the hell are you to comment?" in ESS or any other gallery. Being somewhat blunt, if I ever did perceive that, I think I would tell them exactly "Who the hell I was" - a dues paying member who has every right to critique as I see fit. If they don't want a critique, don't post in a critique gallery.
As far as the galleries being an Image Showcase, sure that happens for some. IMO, there's nothing wrong with that. I always enjoy viewing the great images here, and learn a great deal from them. I would suspect the worse images of Marc Adamus or Guy Tal may be quite a bit better than many of my best images, but I would also suspect that both of them appreciate honest critiques of their work. Just because someone is good at their craft doesn't mean they should be penalized and accused of "showing off". Just my opinion, but the whole idea of the critique gallery is to post your best work and then allow others to hopefully tear it apart, artistically speaking of course. What's the point of posting something that you already know is mediocre in your own eyes? IMO, the best way to improve is to have what you think is your best work critiqued, and make adjustments from that point.
Just my 2 cents.
Posted by Bill Fach on September 6, 2007 at 2:53 PM
Kerry: I'm late to this party but did want to toss in my 2¢. I'm reminded of a situation several years ago in the avian gallery where a guy posted no images but did a lot of commenting. His comments were straightforward and generaly positive but he would not hesitate to point out flaws in even the big hitter's images. Some feathers were indeed ruffled. After several hundred comments he finally posted one of his own and immediately shut up every whining brat on the board. That image garnered an editor's pick and he went on to get several more. Most of that group has subsequently left NPN and IMO all for the better.
When someone attacks the messenger its generally because he doesn't like the message, usually because the message has a lot of truth that may be deflating a fragile ego. Too bad. I never take a negative critique personally and have no sympathy for those who do. If you're not prepared to take the heat get out of the kitchen. Since taking on the moderator's post in Flora I note that the photographers who have the thickest skin are the ones who grow the fastest. I like to water those fast growing seeds. Critiques like you have provided in the past (and I recall them well) are the kind that can help a person improve. I think that's what we're about in Flora in particular and NPN in general so the more the better.
Finally, post your shots, not so much for your own edification but for the benefit of others. I wrote a long e-mail last night to one of our regulars who is seeking to improve. My advice to him was to look at lots of images carefully enough to comment. Your stuff was always good so it will elevate the overall quality of the site and provide the less accomplished with a standard to aspire to. I'm glad you're back, for the long haul. >=))>
Posted by James Fillip on September 6, 2007 at 4:00 PM
Hey Kerry, Nice to meet you. I'm new around here and to photography. I feel I too have learned a lot from looking at others work. And you can feel free to comment on my work any time you like, I would really apreciate it! And I would like to see some of your shots, not to valadate your opnion, but to learn from what you do right, and try to apply it to what I do wrong. I think for someone like me looking at the "showcase" images can be just as helpful as reading the crituques of the images that might need some help, like mine
Posted by Harley Goldman on September 6, 2007 at 7:11 PM
A good comment or critique is a good comment or critique, whether you post photos or not. As far as I am concerned, post away!
Posted by Tom Webster on September 6, 2007 at 10:35 PM
Heck, Kerry, you got off easy. A few years back some now ex-members emailed me and asked me to quit posting in the Avian Galleries and, also, to quit commenting on the images. These ex-members felt I hadn't the qualifications to critique any of the avian images. I won't mention the names but I let each of those members know, quite pointedly, what I thought of their requests!
Participate on what ever degree of involvement you want. There is value in posting images and there is value in posting comments. Do what you feel comfortable doing.
Posted by Steve Foss on September 6, 2007 at 11:39 PM
Jesus, seems like you guys were all the pioneers in the early days making the landscape safe for those of us who came later. NPN is one of those safe havens, where professionalism supercedes ego for the most part. Pretty darn near unique among Web fora.
Guess NPN must have been like the Wild Wild West a few years ago. Next time I run into you in the saloon, Tom, old pardner, I'll buy you a rye whiskey. Um, well, as long as you don't have your Canon pointed at me under the table.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on September 7, 2007 at 7:28 AM
Steve said;
...seems like you guys were all the pioneers in the early days making the landscape safe for those of us who came later.
It's been interesting (to say the least) to witness the "evolution" of NPN over the years.
NPN is one of those safe havens, where professionalism supercedes ego for the most part.
No doubt about it, NPN has "evolved" in a very positive direction and it has really come into its own over the last few years. My sincere thanks to our members for making that happen!
With the NPN members being from so many levels of talent and experience... each sees things in different ways. So often we stare at our own work over and over and miss something very obvious to someone else. I look forward to comments. Sometimes I have a special area I am working on and so I ask a specific question.
Thanks, everyone, for taking the time to consider this matter and reply; it's been a big help.
Even back when I was posting images of my own in the galleries, I enforced my own unwritten rule: at least 15 critiques for every one images I post. If anything, I'll increase that ratio.
With the assistance of everyone here, I've decided that I will post some of my own images--one or two a week, something like that--and post replies to the images of others far more frequently. I think this presents something of a happy medium. It seems to me that if I benefit directly from viewing the images that others post--by viewing the unique perspective that we all bring to the table with each one of our photographs--it would be selfish for me not to provide like opportunities for everyone else. Not because my photography is necessarily "great"; how "good" or "bad" my images are isn't really for me to say; it's obviously a subjective matter. No, it's the unique perspective, good, bad or indifferent, that should be shared. Thanks to everyone here for helping me realize this.
And with that, I'm off to post an image in ESS, one in M&N, and do some critiquing.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on September 7, 2007 at 2:06 PM
For the new folks around here, I am one of those people who have been here since the beginning. I think I found this website no more than two weeks after it went up and it is the main reason I bought a "real" camera several months later.
A lot of the tone of this website was set by those early contributors. While one of Jim's early goals was to create an environment where is was "safe" to post photos, this would not have happened without many of those early contributors working extremely hard to create that atmosphere. It was a welcome change from places like Photo.net which, believe it or not, have actually become a *LOT* more civil in the last few years.
The fact that Kerry's question has generated so many positive replies says a lot about what Jim, the editors and moderators and this website has accomplished.
(And no, I was not one of those early contributors. I had maybe a dozen posts in the first year, and that is a generous guess.)
Posted by Richard Wong on September 7, 2007 at 3:23 PM
"A few years back some now ex-members emailed me and asked me to quit posting in the Avian Galleries and, also, to quit commenting on the images. These ex-members felt I hadn't the qualifications to critique any of the avian images. I won't mention the names but I let each of those members know, quite pointedly, what I thought of their requests!"
Probably because you violated the unwritten rule of avian photography. If the bird ain't on a stick, it ain't worth shooting or posting.
Posted by Steve Foss on September 7, 2007 at 5:00 PM
Richard, you kill me. At any rate, whoever was/were responsible for making this site the safe haven that immediately attracted me a year ago when I found it gets this:
Posted by Rick Lundh on September 8, 2007 at 3:55 AM
So, tell me why it matters that we should see another's images to quantify the validity of their comments?
For me...I dont care if you've never taken a photo or have been published all over the world. Just tell me how my photo makes you feel, and if there was anything I could do to improve my technique. Remember, photographers dont buy our photos, but the general public does.
Posted by Eric Peterson on September 8, 2007 at 11:26 PM
I agree with Rick, we/I take pictures not for the sole purpose of showing off to other photographers but to share what I "see" with everyone especially those that aren't fortunate enough to visit the locations and areas I have. I would really feel sorry for someone that posts just to show off, therefore I encourage anyone and everyone to comment on my stuff, especially if you don't like it. Also I am new here and was very cautious about posting my photos until I went back and read some earlier posts. The atmosphere here is extremely positive and helpful to beginners, it's nice to see that even the pros remember they started out like everyone else, that's rare in art.
Discussion
36 repliesAt some point, in 2004, it occurred to me that I was no longer posting images in the galleries to have them critiqued. It's not that I objected to critiques, they simply weren't the motivation for posting the images in the first place. I was, in effect, "showing off" what I thought were good images. Once I realized that this is what I was doing, it struck me that this might be something of an abuse of the image gallery critique philosophy. And so I stopped posting images but kept right on critiquing those of others. I did this for a couple of months until I received a private e-mail from another site participant who was new to NPN who politely, but rather firmly, suggested that if I wasn't going to post my own images (this person hadn't started participating until after I stopped posting images; this as also before I had my own Web site) I shouldn't critique others. The rationale, as expressed by this individual, was that without being able to view my images it was impossible to put my critiques in a meaningful context, thereby rendering them worthless...or worse. I had to admit that this point of view hadn't occurred to me; I conceded that this person had a point and that I'd have to give it some serious thought.
Coincidentally, and for reasons that had nothing to do with NPN specifically or photography generally, I took a hiatus from the site. Some things had cropped up in my life that upended my normal routine for many months and a new expression of inertia shook me from the habit of checking NPN regularly. My membership here lapsed and, regrettably, I didn't renew it, reasoning that I wasn't utilizing the site anymore.
Fast forward to late summer of 2007. With our sixth anniversary approaching, my wife asked me if there was something she could get me as a small gift. I asked if she'd renew my NPN membership; I'd always regretted letting it lapse, particularly in light of how significant this site and its participants had been in the development of my photographic skills. She purchased the renewal and here I am again.
But the point of this lengthy post--and I apologize that it's gotten so out of hand--remains the question re critiquing and posting in the image galleries.
Please understand--I'm not asking for permission to post images or to post critiques without posting images of my own. I've read the posting guidelines and clearly I'd be within the rules whatever I chose to do. What I'm asking about, I suppose, is the culture of the site, the standard operating procedure...and, generally speaking, people's preferences. Is the "showcasing" of images reasonable? Does it matter if soliciting critiques isn't my main motivation for posting? And, on the other side of the ledger, do people mind if someone critiques without posting his/her own images in the galleries or was that participant who e-mailed my three years ago right? Is it bad form to critique without posting?
I appreciate your thoughts on these matters and, regardless of the consensus, I'm extremely pleased to renew a more active participation on NPN after three-odd years in the figurative wilderness.
Many thanks.
I don't identify with the logic of the one who e-mailed you. The value of a critique has nothing to do with whether the critic posts his or her own work, as far as I'm concerned. I feel this way partly because photographers view photos very differently than consumers, and so critques from fellow photographers can help from a technical point of view but don't have much value to me when it comes to aesthetics. When I view a photo I like to make sure my photographer's hat is off and that I'm wearing the hat of wonder, of insipiration, the hat that allows me to be moved by an image without picking up the flaws. We know that photographers see the flaws in others' images because wey've trained ourselves to look for them in our own work. We also know that the average buyer of photographic prints doesn't recognize the imperfections we see as a matter of course.
I guess that's my way of saying I find the critique boards valuable for techs but not so valuable for assessing whether I've composed a moving image. If I have technical questions, I don't hestiate to post an image within the critique forums, and I listen closely to advice given there. Even then I don't need to see the critic's work somewhere else to value the feedback. For me, one does not depend on the other.
I do, however, take inspiration and motivation from the fine work posted by some others on the crituqe forums. I see much of what's posted there, including much of my own work, as technically sound but fairly routine, but every once in awhile an image comes across that is simply wonderful, a statement so singular that I can't help be moved by it. So, regarding your thoughts on the motivation for posting images, I'll add that even if a shooter posts an image that he/she is proud of and the main motivation isn't for the critiques, I believe that image has a different sort of value, because we all learn by seeing the work of others, and a stunning image that is perfect, or darn near so, and is posted as a bit of a pat on the back for one's self will still serve to inspire others. Inspiration can be in short supply, and is a worthwhile thing.
It's inspiring to see the photos, but educational to read the comments. They are really interested in seeing how others react to a photo, and inevitably weigh their own reactions against the reviewers. That's another learning step. Most don't feel confident enough to add their own review, but they always react to both the reviews and the photos.
Moving across the table to the photographer's viewpoint, I think it's important to put some value on your posts for their contribution to others- in addition to any value you get from the reviews. That's the old teacher in me speaking, but in the sense that NPN is a "community," posting photos and sponsoring thoughtful discussion can be a community service in addition to garnering help for the individual photographer who posts a photo.
My personal motives for posting run much along the same lines as Steve's. I seldom post simply for display, instead posting problem photos when I want advice or want to demo something I think others will be interested in. Not to say that posting for display is a bad thing. Back to my comment about community service in fostering discussion.
Let's see if I understand this e-mailers attitude correctly. Because you are not well-known (here or nationally or internationally), your opinion is worth nothing. Uhm...
Kerry, just post and don't worry about it. If you say something half-baked, we'll let you know.
I just took a quick look at your website. You have some nice work there. I'll have to get back to look at it more carefully.
It is good to see you around this parts again.
As senior moderator of the Man & Nature forum, I welcome you back. My own opinion is the member who criticized you for not posting many images of your own was out of line. I am grateful this was done via email rather than on the forum though as I would have deleted the post. My POV is that actually we need more critiques than we do photos. People seem always ready to put their own photos up, but more reluctant to take time with the photos from others. Anyone who takes the time to write some helpful comments on photos in the Man & Nature forum most certainly has my blessing, FWIW. And, my thanks.
I'm glad we have you back, and your comments have always been a great addition here IMO. I like to think that the culture of the site is one where people with many different opinions and angles on things can come together and have a civil discussion about it. Hopefully we don't always agree, either. That would be boring!
Kent in SD
Second, if a photographer would post a photo with obvious flaws and he knows of these flaws - of what benefit a critique is then ?.
I dont think it is bad to critique without posting, but the opposite is not so nice...
So, it's the very good photo that can be improved, and sometimes it can only be improved by the critical eyes of others. When I post here, I mostly post photo's that I think are well done. Very often the critique helped to make them better.
Like you I feel I have learned more by viewing and commenting on others work and reading the comments of the others here. I have found it interesting that a lot of the time now the things I notice in an image will be commented on by others when I read the critiques. I also find myself several times not posting the thoughts I have when I find that it will not be adding anything that has not been said by others. Maybe I should go ahead and post my comments anyway. I do not comment as much as I should maybe but way more than I post photos. (Partly because I have not been out with the camera a lot lately) I believe it was Bill who incouraged me to start commenting more as a way for the people here to get to know me and it has helped me to view things differently and also to receive more critiques on my last few images.
There is no way to know why the person who e-mailed you felt the way they did, but I have found myself wanting to look at the photos of someone who gave a critique of my photos before. For me it is not that if I don't like there work that it makes the comment invalid but that if the comment is something that could be subjective I want to see if I can find visual reference to what they said in their photos and see if it is a style which I would like to emulate.
Bruce
I really appreciate though how much I learn from seeing other people's work along with the techs of how they did it. I will sit and look at some images for a long time and imagine the conditions that led to the shot. There are some people that post what seems to me to be flawless work photo after photo. They receive their due accolades, and I suppose are just showing off their work, but for those of us striving to get where they are the photos are invaluable to study.
So, please critque away and also share your work even if you are not looking for help!
Thanks in advance,
Peter
What constantly amazes me about NPN is the high signal to noise ratio. There are very few "bad" photographs posted here. There is very little of the all-to-common internet nastiness. What is in that NPN kool-aid, Jim?
Pete D.
At any rate, I've found the NPN group a quite easy going bunch and would imagine you could make your own reasonable guidelines to get the most from your time and membership. I'm pretty much with Bill on these things.
I started posting here simply because I hung around here for a while and realized that there's some very nuanced opinions put forward by postors, and that they were giving some very specific inputs on how certain images felt good and certain felt bad. I thought this was serious stuff, a far cry from the other fora out there, where most of the chaps are (IMO) busy scratching each-other's backs.
I wanted to get some serious feedback on my photos, and how to improve them. I felt I was working too hard and not having much to show for. Joining NPN and getting feedback was probably the best thing I ever did after taking up landscape photography. Once in a while I do love to boast off my prized catch, which, frankly speaking, doesn't happen too often, since I rarely have anything spectacular to show.
I also participate in commenting on other's photos a bit more regularly, since I believe I owe them an honest critique if I am myself asking them to do me a favor.
On the other hand there's a few chaps out here who simply post their photos as "advertisements", but never ever comment on other's photographs.
C'est la vie. Welcome back, BTW.
Question a) - using NPN as image showcase. Well, I think we're all guilty of that to a certain extent. I certainly am. I usually don't even bother to post those images that are not good. I post those that I think are good - and I still get valuable feedback most of the time. So in my opinion, showing only your best images is in itself no contradiction to the critique concept.
Question b) - clearly, as long as the critique is good and thoughtful, it doesn't really matter from whom it comes. Of course, it's great to have a very good photographer giving critique, but in the end, what matters is the quality of the comment, not who made it. For example, I very much value the comments and critiques my girlfriend makes. She's not as much into photography as I am, doesn't care at all about what fancy lens, tripod, or remote release setup I used, but IMO, her judgements are valuable nevertheless. You needn't be a photographer to distinguish between an outstanding shot and a poor one (after all, we photograph for other, non-photographer, people to see and appreciate our work, right?).
Basil
BTW (and FWIW), I don't post many photos either simply because my "field time" is now much more limited. But that in no way diminishes my enjoyment of participating in these forums and galleries, and I hope it does not for you either.
If you ever wish to share any suggestions, comments or complaints, the buck stops here - you know where to find me!
They should be called Image Showcase not Image Critique, but that's the nature of the beast I guess.
One thing I will say is how many art judges are actually artist. You shouldn't have to be a well known, highly viewed photographer to beable to give a comment...but it seems it helps
I don't care if the person doing the critique has posted or not, as long as the critique is honest and constructive.
As far as the galleries being an Image Showcase, sure that happens for some. IMO, there's nothing wrong with that. I always enjoy viewing the great images here, and learn a great deal from them. I would suspect the worse images of Marc Adamus or Guy Tal may be quite a bit better than many of my best images, but I would also suspect that both of them appreciate honest critiques of their work. Just because someone is good at their craft doesn't mean they should be penalized and accused of "showing off". Just my opinion, but the whole idea of the critique gallery is to post your best work and then allow others to hopefully tear it apart, artistically speaking of course. What's the point of posting something that you already know is mediocre in your own eyes? IMO, the best way to improve is to have what you think is your best work critiqued, and make adjustments from that point.
Just my 2 cents.
When someone attacks the messenger its generally because he doesn't like the message, usually because the message has a lot of truth that may be deflating a fragile ego. Too bad. I never take a negative critique personally and have no sympathy for those who do. If you're not prepared to take the heat get out of the kitchen. Since taking on the moderator's post in Flora I note that the photographers who have the thickest skin are the ones who grow the fastest. I like to water those fast growing seeds. Critiques like you have provided in the past (and I recall them well) are the kind that can help a person improve. I think that's what we're about in Flora in particular and NPN in general so the more the better.
Finally, post your shots, not so much for your own edification but for the benefit of others. I wrote a long e-mail last night to one of our regulars who is seeking to improve. My advice to him was to look at lots of images carefully enough to comment. Your stuff was always good so it will elevate the overall quality of the site and provide the less accomplished with a standard to aspire to. I'm glad you're back, for the long haul. >=))>
Participate on what ever degree of involvement you want. There is value in posting images and there is value in posting comments. Do what you feel comfortable doing.
Guess NPN must have been like the Wild Wild West a few years ago. Next time I run into you in the saloon, Tom, old pardner, I'll buy you a rye whiskey. Um, well, as long as you don't have your Canon pointed at me under the table.
It's been interesting (to say the least) to witness the "evolution" of NPN over the years.
No doubt about it, NPN has "evolved" in a very positive direction and it has really come into its own over the last few years. My sincere thanks to our members for making that happen!
Even back when I was posting images of my own in the galleries, I enforced my own unwritten rule: at least 15 critiques for every one images I post. If anything, I'll increase that ratio.
With the assistance of everyone here, I've decided that I will post some of my own images--one or two a week, something like that--and post replies to the images of others far more frequently. I think this presents something of a happy medium. It seems to me that if I benefit directly from viewing the images that others post--by viewing the unique perspective that we all bring to the table with each one of our photographs--it would be selfish for me not to provide like opportunities for everyone else. Not because my photography is necessarily "great"; how "good" or "bad" my images are isn't really for me to say; it's obviously a subjective matter. No, it's the unique perspective, good, bad or indifferent, that should be shared. Thanks to everyone here for helping me realize this.
And with that, I'm off to post an image in ESS, one in M&N, and do some critiquing.
Again, thanks to all.
Welcome back.
A lot of the tone of this website was set by those early contributors. While one of Jim's early goals was to create an environment where is was "safe" to post photos, this would not have happened without many of those early contributors working extremely hard to create that atmosphere. It was a welcome change from places like Photo.net which, believe it or not, have actually become a *LOT* more civil in the last few years.
The fact that Kerry's question has generated so many positive replies says a lot about what Jim, the editors and moderators and this website has accomplished.
(And no, I was not one of those early contributors. I had maybe a dozen posts in the first year, and that is a generous guess.)
Probably because you violated the unwritten rule of avian photography. If the bird ain't on a stick, it ain't worth shooting or posting.
For me...I dont care if you've never taken a photo or have been published all over the world. Just tell me how my photo makes you feel, and if there was anything I could do to improve my technique. Remember, photographers dont buy our photos, but the general public does.