Posted by Bruce Painter on October 17, 2007 at 10:43 AM
I have been thinking lately about the 24mm tilt & shift for my next lens. (even though I still don't have a macro) My reasons for looking at the T&S are:
1) On scenes like streams I could get a DOF that would keep everything in focus with a larger f-stop and have a greater choice in my shutter speeds for different effects on the moving water.
2) I also like the idea of moving the lens and not the camera for stitched photos for panos and higher resolution scenics.
The thing I have questions about is due to the camera I use. I have a 30D and I am not sure that since the 1.6 crop cameras "use" only the center portion of the lens will I still get get the full effect of the T&S. Can I expect to gain enough in the way of DOF at say f5.6 or f8 to retain focus from say 4 to 5 feet to infinity to make this lens worth the money? I am also concerned that 24mm on the 1.6 crop might not be wide enough, but I should be able to get an idea about this by checking out scenes with my 17-40 set at 24mm.
I would like to hear from any of you who have used this lens but especially those who have tried it on a 1.6 crop camera.
Bruce
Posted by Dan Borzynski on October 17, 2007 at 12:12 PM
You will get the full effect of the T&S even with the cropped sensor. The tilts affect the entire plane of focus equally and the only thing the cropped sensor does is pull out the middle 2/3'rds or so of this.
I don't think there is enough shift on the lens to do stitched panos with it as you are anticipating. If anything, using this lens for stitched panos might actually become a nightmare because of its movements, although I have not actually tried to do this with this lens.
With regards to the gain in DOF, the ability to place the plane of focus exactly where you want it to be can save you 2-3 stops. Looking down at a streambed, which is relatively flat, can easily mean using f8 rather than f13-16 to be sure that everything is sharp. I think your expectations here are completely reasonable.
Remember, this lens won't save you if you have two distinct planes of focus that need to be sharp, although it will let you choose one (the same as in a "normal" lens). The advantage over a "normal" lens is that the tilting function makes it easier to get that one plane right.
Whether 24 mm is wide enough for you - I can't answer that question. I'd love to see a 200mm TS lens, which is why I also shoot 4x5.
I use the TS not for extra DOF but for Panos. By shifting right and left (not all the way) I get nice 2:1 to 3:1 proportions. You can shoot a 3rd frame with no shift to help the software match up the frames but usually this is not necessary. You cn change the shift direction and create nice square images too.
Posted by Richard Wong on October 17, 2007 at 2:04 PM
I think the 24mm x 1.6x = 36mm would be beneficial for panoramics. You don't want to be using a super wide to stitch a panoramic because there'd be no gain in detail.
Posted by Jesse Speer on October 17, 2007 at 2:45 PM
You will LOVE this lens for Panos, as I do. And Dan already covered the technical issues nicely. There is a bit of light fall-off at the edges when shifting (certainly at full shift), so be mindful of that. Can be corrected in Photoshop.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on October 17, 2007 at 3:30 PM
Thanks for the correction on using shift for panos. I didn't realize there was enough shift to do that.
I don't think that the 24mm tilt will be wide enough for you on your 30D. You will still have to move the camera to make panos and the tilt and shift may actually be more of a hassle with panos (I may be wrong, I have never used mine for such purposes). I would stick with your 17-40 and pay very close attention to focusing and the hyperfocal distance. Use a ND filter to slow down shutters speeds for motion effects or increase your ISO to get faster shutter speeds.
Just my opinion,
Carl
Posted by Cliff Beittel on October 17, 2007 at 6:36 PM
I've never use my 24 T/S for panos, but I once saw George Lepp do one using one of the Canon T/S lenses. The thing that stood out for me was how quick the process is with a T/S lens. Couple of seconds. Come to think of it, now that I'm shooting digital, I need to try it with the equipment I have instead of dreaming about a Hasselblad or Fuji.
Posted by Bruce Painter on October 17, 2007 at 10:43 PM
Thanks to all who have replied. I think that you have covered the questions I had pretty well. Next week I will be out with the camera and will try to compose with the 17-40 set to 24 to get an idea how well I can work some scenes with it. The T&S lens purchase won't be real soon so I'll keep all this in mind. I may even rent a 24 T&S and give it a trial run first but I like the feed back I have got here. Sounds like a very useful lens.
Bruce
Posted by Paul Skoczylas on October 17, 2007 at 11:58 PM
Nobody has made a very important point:
Yes, you can use the shift function to make panos. But it's NOT perfect. For "perfect" (or as near as possible), the front of the lens would have to be fixed, and you'd shift the back (with the camera). But this lens doesn't have a tripod mount, so that's not how it works. You WILL have parallax problems if you don't correct for it. The way to correct is to shift the camera by the same amount as the lens, but the opposite way, so that the front of the lens doesn't change position. Of course, parallax is only an issue if you have subjects at different distances--particularly if one or more is close to the camera.
-Paul
Posted by Jerry Greer on October 18, 2007 at 1:12 AM
Paul, there is no real parallax problems when shifting. I use the 45mm and the 90mm for stitching panos, the 24mm is too wide on the full-frame 5D. For panos you will want a bit longer focal length than you may think. Also, you can use the EF 1.4x extender on the TS-E's.
When using the TS-E's for panos by shifting you are only moving the larger image circle along the sensor just as with large-format. When using the cropped sensor you will get just a touch overlap when stitching two horizontal images. It creates an image that is close to a 617 format.
Posted by James Hersey on October 18, 2007 at 8:42 AM
I have and have used the 24mm TS on a 1.6 crop. I now use it mostly on my full frame and love it. The difference for me is the viewfinder and being able to see the image better in a larger/brighter finder. A angle finder may help with focusing if you need it.
You mention stopping down to get DOF which you can do the wonderful thing about the TS is you can get a field of flowers in focus and maintain a fast shutter speed which helps wtih even light breezes.
Posted by Paul Skoczylas on October 18, 2007 at 12:03 PM
Jerry, I respectfully disagree on a couple of points.
I used my 24 TS-E with shift to shoot a burned out log a couple feet in front of the camera. No software I've tried has been able to resolve the foreground and background even close to my satisfaction--there is simply too much parallax.
You write: "When using the TS-E's for panos by shifting you are only moving the larger image circle along the sensor just as with large-format." Yes, you are moving the image circle along the sensor, but since the image circle moves, it causes parallax. What you need to do to avoid parallax is move the sensor within the image circle. That's what I meant when I wrote that you have to move the back when you shift so that the front element is in the same place.
-Paul
Posted by Jerry Greer on October 18, 2007 at 6:29 PM
Paul, As I stated I never use my 24mm for panos, it is too wide with a full frame 5D. I think that the big problem is mostly from wide-angle distortions. When I use my 45 & 90 I get perfect stitched photos. So disagree if you must.
Posted by Bruce Painter on October 18, 2007 at 10:15 PM
Thanks Jerry, Paul and James for the added info. Since it has been brought up by a couple of different people I will say that I do understand that the 24mm even on the 1.6 crop will be to wide for vast landscape panos. For the pano/Stitched photos I had in mind more intimate landscapes stitched either for a pano crop or a more traditional crop but greater resolution. I do not do a lot of stitched photos (only 2 or 3 so far) but I do have one from Rocky Mountain National Park that I had printed at 40 inches in length which was done with the 17-40 lens set at 36mm if I remember correctly. The detail in this print is fine for what I wanted to show.
To be honest I know I should buy the 100mm macro first but I have become fascinated with the thought of the T&S lens.
Jerry I saw your Fern and Beach Forrest #3 in ESS Gallery that you used the 24 T&S for and I like it a lot. Could you tell me what f-stop you used to get the DOF needed in that one.
Discussion
14 replies1) On scenes like streams I could get a DOF that would keep everything in focus with a larger f-stop and have a greater choice in my shutter speeds for different effects on the moving water.
2) I also like the idea of moving the lens and not the camera for stitched photos for panos and higher resolution scenics.
The thing I have questions about is due to the camera I use. I have a 30D and I am not sure that since the 1.6 crop cameras "use" only the center portion of the lens will I still get get the full effect of the T&S. Can I expect to gain enough in the way of DOF at say f5.6 or f8 to retain focus from say 4 to 5 feet to infinity to make this lens worth the money? I am also concerned that 24mm on the 1.6 crop might not be wide enough, but I should be able to get an idea about this by checking out scenes with my 17-40 set at 24mm.
I would like to hear from any of you who have used this lens but especially those who have tried it on a 1.6 crop camera.
Bruce
I don't think there is enough shift on the lens to do stitched panos with it as you are anticipating. If anything, using this lens for stitched panos might actually become a nightmare because of its movements, although I have not actually tried to do this with this lens.
With regards to the gain in DOF, the ability to place the plane of focus exactly where you want it to be can save you 2-3 stops. Looking down at a streambed, which is relatively flat, can easily mean using f8 rather than f13-16 to be sure that everything is sharp. I think your expectations here are completely reasonable.
Remember, this lens won't save you if you have two distinct planes of focus that need to be sharp, although it will let you choose one (the same as in a "normal" lens). The advantage over a "normal" lens is that the tilting function makes it easier to get that one plane right.
Whether 24 mm is wide enough for you - I can't answer that question. I'd love to see a 200mm TS lens, which is why I also shoot 4x5.
Just my opinion,
Carl
Bruce
Yes, you can use the shift function to make panos. But it's NOT perfect. For "perfect" (or as near as possible), the front of the lens would have to be fixed, and you'd shift the back (with the camera). But this lens doesn't have a tripod mount, so that's not how it works. You WILL have parallax problems if you don't correct for it. The way to correct is to shift the camera by the same amount as the lens, but the opposite way, so that the front of the lens doesn't change position. Of course, parallax is only an issue if you have subjects at different distances--particularly if one or more is close to the camera.
-Paul
When using the TS-E's for panos by shifting you are only moving the larger image circle along the sensor just as with large-format. When using the cropped sensor you will get just a touch overlap when stitching two horizontal images. It creates an image that is close to a 617 format.
You mention stopping down to get DOF which you can do the wonderful thing about the TS is you can get a field of flowers in focus and maintain a fast shutter speed which helps wtih even light breezes.
I used my 24 TS-E with shift to shoot a burned out log a couple feet in front of the camera. No software I've tried has been able to resolve the foreground and background even close to my satisfaction--there is simply too much parallax.
You write: "When using the TS-E's for panos by shifting you are only moving the larger image circle along the sensor just as with large-format." Yes, you are moving the image circle along the sensor, but since the image circle moves, it causes parallax. What you need to do to avoid parallax is move the sensor within the image circle. That's what I meant when I wrote that you have to move the back when you shift so that the front element is in the same place.
-Paul
To be honest I know I should buy the 100mm macro first but I have become fascinated with the thought of the T&S lens.
Jerry I saw your Fern and Beach Forrest #3 in ESS Gallery that you used the 24 T&S for and I like it a lot. Could you tell me what f-stop you used to get the DOF needed in that one.
Bruce