The LURKING....

ATTENTION ALL LURKERS. Why so much lurking and not so much commenting amigos??

I appreciate that this place has its regulars, but I was just stunned to see as many as 145 views and 2 comments on Tristans latest or 70 views and 0 comments of Jeroels Redshank shot! These guys are competant photographers and obviously their names alone are getting them the clicks.

It only takes 11.4secs to say you like something in one sentence, or about 0.8secs of your life to stick a smiley in.

Even if you dont take photos but like looking at this site you dont have justify why you like something at all, just let us know, it makes the world go round. I for one feel appreciated and it also spurs me on to walk miles and miles and flippin miles looking for shots of stupid Autumn!

I would be wracking myself with self loathing if I didnt make others feel appreciated when I can, I can't shoot birds unless they are deceased, but I know my support will spur them oddball birding weirdo's to greater things

Its like coming into the in the pub and no-one speaking. We're all there to drink so lets communicate and drink more!

COMMENT a little more or I will come round your house and lurk at you through your window.

I have big eyes that expand and contract a lot

Well said David.
I thought your coment was well composed and could have impact, and your technique of 11.4 seconds/delivery is most impresssive is this a new motor drive (hopefully Nikon).



Tim
PS Do you suffer fromt that Seasonal affective disorder thingy?

I am a lurker!

I do comment sometimes - however many times I look at the images a few days after they have been put up and the comments that I would make are already well described.
I am another that only shoots deceased birds (ie not much at all). From that, I am probably not well qualified to comment on other peoples birds.
I still keep commenting when I can tho.

Andrew
PS my office is on the 4th floor - if big eyes that expand and contract alot turn up at the window there, you can have a medal (60foot drop)

I tend to look in every day and check out what others I know are doing or saying.
If I feel I can make a useful comment I will, but I will never make a comment if I feel I am being forced to.

Each to their own I s'pose

John

Hi David

Every time that I post an image I comment on at least 5-10 images.

However, thare are some who post almost every day and never comment, one of whom has been mentioned already.

Regrads

Brian

Good comment David - there we are 5.5 seconds and boosts the hits on this one too

Mark

I've felt this too but not had the guts to say it really, as it seems that people use this site for different reasons. I personally only post my images on this site, none other, whereas some may post on many forums, so the comments I get are appreciated and I comment on other peope's images as I'd like comments and critique back. Lately, I've commented less, I must admit, but that i largely to do with work loads etc, but also the fact I've become less inclined to comment on people's images that don't participate much to anyone else's postings, so maybe there are more people like me around (only better photographers, obviously ) Good post David

I`m a 99% lurker also.

I check the postings that I think would interest me every day, but I very rarely comment because I don`t often post myself so I don`t think it would be fair to post a reply on other peoples images.

Hi David

I don't comment much on photographs these days as I am not doing much nature photography at the moment, but I do enjoy looking in on what people are up to so I lurk a bit these days.

I also feel that posting images for comment is a two way street.

Before I post, I always comment on at least 10 other recent posts. And I try to say something useful if I can.

If I expect or hope for about 8 or 10 comments on my post, then I feel it is reasonable to comment that many times in return.

The Topics and Replies counters are the bottom of each post gives me an indication if I am on the right track.

cheers

Sean

Sean is right - posting for comment is a two-way street and I always comment on way more shots than I submit which is how it should be I'm sure you'll agree

But you can't help but quietly wonder why images you or others put up can get 150 views and only half a dozen comments - surely all those viewers most have thought something when they saw the image, and the 144 who don't comment can't all feel they've got nothing to offer by way of reply

Someone asked me the other day if I thought this forum was a bit clique-ey because they had noticed that certain photographers get way more views than others, and a higher percentage of replies to boot.

My reply was, to be honest, yes and no - yes because there are certain good imagers on here who only comment on certain others images and no matter how many comments you pass on their work they never reciprocate; and no - because there are imagers equally as good who offer comment, constructive criticism and help to others in copious quantities.

I have lurkers email me asking my this or that about an image I've posted or a technique etc who just wouldn't dream of asking on the open forum, just I suppose, because of some misguided concept that they'll look stupid

For those who have a question - ASK IT - no one here will think you are mad

For those who don't comment because they feel they are not 'qualified' to do so - STOP IT and say your piece, afterall you know why you like or dislike something so tell the photographer; you might have one hell of a valid point

And for those who take comments but don't give them back - well, you know who you are, and I for one know what you are - thank christ you are a minority V.V.V.V

Good topic. I'm first to admit to commenting almost purely on landscape images to which I try to add as much constructive feedback as I can on. When I first started posting here I felt like the only one posting landscapes and I'm really pleased to see much more of them now. I've also had some fantastic and extremely valuable constructive feedback for which I'm most grateful. I've no experience of birds, mammals and insects but I'll try to broaden my horizons and add my thoughts to more of them where I can. Tristan

The ethics of this site uphold all the comments to this thread so far.

I think people really shouldnt feel they have to actually post images to participate, who cares if you dont even own a camera. Just say you like it, you might not know why, thats fine, it makes those who do post feel better about themselves. I was chuffed to bits to get 13 on my Autumn shot. I know its a good image. Does Tristan know that 100 people out of the 145 who viewed his image think its simply brilliant? Is he just sitting there at his PC shaking his thinking this place is dead??

Photography is often a lonely world of thinking thinking and more thinking. It's infectious. Planning and research, reading and listening, TV and magazines, internet, getting that edge, that knowledge, the ability to know your equipment and your surroundings like yourself, to react and flow. If your that involved you need support.... you do! You can act like a bitter gunfighter all you like, but even they came out of the desert to prove to themselves who they were.... and to get pissed on moonshine whilst rejecting busty saloon singers. "Whats the matter soldier, don't you like what you see?" Some women are trouble arn't they.

Anyway I digress! To be appreciated leads to a greater achievement, the sense of community we have here and the importance of sharing goes full circle by the comments we receive in return, whether experienced or casual. It is vital to understand self worth and build confidence. It goes beyond families and friends; some are aiming for recognition, some for help and information, some for laughs and good spirit.

If you put yourself out there, if you are fishing in the rivers of opportunity, or just enjoying a chat at the bar, if your climbing a mountain, joining in the buzz of some great work or just supporting your colleagues a smiley and 0.8secs of your time can make a big difference.

Dave

Hi David

This is kind of a tough one. I think that there are two issues here. First, with regards active posters, and second, with the 'lurkers'.

Active posters.
I go through phases of commenting or not commenting, in part depending on whether I'm posting or not. I really value peoples' feedback, and I agree with others that this is a reciprocal act - I can hardly expect others to comment on mine (if only to get the attaboys) if I don't put some effort into responding to others. I don't lose sleep over it though -just as people are free to choose to not comment on others' shots, and only post their images, I can choose not comment in turn.

The lurkers.
This is the only forum I'm involved with, the standard is incredibly high, and I think that this is part of the issue. I lurked for a long time before I first posted, trying to get an image I was happy enough to show on this site. This didn't mean that I wasn't enjoying the images, just that I didn't (and to be honest still don't) feel qualified enough to comment. I bet that many of the observers are non-posters who just like seeing some fantastic nature photography.

Also, not getting any comments, or very few, is a response in itself, as we all know. Viewers comment on those they like, and many don't on those that we think are good, but not great, or rarely on this site (mainly mine!), not quite good enough.

Finally, there are many people on the site who really help make things work in spite of the occasional one way street - those who regularly comment on others much more often than they post, the Mods, and those whose comments are full of good advice - Andy Astbury's comment on Ian Hardy's robin is a great example. You're appreciated!



Mark

"and to get pissed on moonshine whilst rejecting busty saloon singers............" I'm clearly shooting in the wrong locations
What a fantastic turn of phrase - keep the photos I want to read more of this stuff!

Regards

JohnS

I'm very new to the site, only arrived yesterday. The thing I worry about with commenting on sites like this is that some of my comments appear repetitive, some of it's down to not feeling the standard of my own work matches the standards of other peoples work especially the high quality here. But even so I know it's only polite to comment when someone's work entertains and inspires you. I also realise that were I might not be qualified on the technical side I know what I looks good to me.

Cheers,

Nick,

Hi David,

Interesting thread, I comment when I have the time (ie not working away from home which means no PC). I usually post an image when I'm not 100% sure about it, so therefore I am looking for constructive critique either negative or positive. I would much rather have 150 people look at my image and get 6 really helpful and constructive responses, rather than 150 views and 20 replies with the majority of them saying "great shot", "WOW neat image", "amazing" or those kinds of responses, as for me they are not helpful at all, but if people feel they have to make a comment when they don't really want to, that is the kind of comment they will leave, and thankfully that rarely happens on this excellent forum. I for one think it would be a real shame if the forum starts going in the direction of one or two word replies, just because the viewer feels that they have to make a response.

Regards

Rob

As Mods have discussed this countless times. How do we get more comments? What makes a person comment? How do we motivate people to comment? etc..

What I would say is that from the beginning of UKNP we discussed a rough guidline that if you have 4 times as many replies as topics (1:4) we (I, as time may have changed Nick and Phil) feel that this is the lower end of what we would like to see - but there is no rule. It is very heartening to see some like Andy with nearly a 1:20 ratio.

Even as a moderator ( a person who starts more admin/notice/schedule topics than most) I can (just) about acheive (1:4) - so it shouldn't be that hard

As to cliques. Yes they may exist but it may supprise you that most on the forum have never met hence if they do its because of feedback given and recieved.

There are two sayings that are pertinent to forum use and for that matter most participative pastimes....

You sow what you reap.
Do onto others as you would have done unto yourself.

Now we all accept people lives are all different. Not two of us have the same 'call' on our time, employers can be a pain, babies are a tad demanding, interests wane etc - but all that said if you can find time to prepare an image then post it on this forum you should find the time to comment on other images.

Nick - welcome. Nobody minds things being re-enforced throught repetition but only providing you mean it and are not just posting someboy else's thoughts.

It is interesting I could have predicted who would reply on this thread and you will notice their ratios are quite high especiallys NIcks whos is infinite - but remember its just a guide for sometimes its what is said that is important not how often we say it.

T

I have to say that I have not been posting much (images or comments) recently due to work/home etc pressures. My problem is in giving constructive advice as I am still learning myself. It is very easy, for me, to give the "very nice image" type of comments but much more difficult to give the "you should try this or that" comment without causing offence or whilst knowing what I am talking about . But I, for one, will take what you have said and make the attempt at least.

Adrian

I've seen threads just like this on other photography forums. It seems pretty universal that a photo will get far more views than comments. I don't feel that my posting a photo should in any way put an obligation on anyone to comment on it. I'm flattered if someone takes the time to even look at one of my photos let alone post a comment



Paul

Just a simple "I like it " because you havent got time to write much or dont feel its your own specialist field, or even because you dont own a camera makes those who do post their shots feel they are appreciated, I think it doesnt have to go further than that, but it is always nice to get a more depthy critiques. It doesn devalue anything really, if we are just aware of other peoples time scales and situations its still a valid comment as far as I am concerned. We will always get more indepth critiques from the more established posters / those with a liitle more time (like myself) but the post is really about the Lurkers and making them feel included, that they can interact and drop a good word to show their appreciation rather than feeling their opinion is unjustified.

It is a 'goes around comes around' experience too, but I think anyone who accesses this site at whatever level is qualified to say they appreciate someones skill with a response of any depth. It makes the world go round.

Its like the Man and Nature catagory on the main NSN site, lots of views and little response, everyone from Earth Sea and Sky goes for a look because there is cracking work sometimes like lighthouses for example. What makes a landscaper's words dry up if you plonk a castle in the shot? Its beyond me sometimes.

Here's another thing - I seem to do really well over on Photo.net, lots of high quality shooters wont even post their work for critique because of stupid jealousy and childishness. The rating system is a disaster I admit, but I post lots of comments on others work and I am sure this helps with my own ratings. Some of my work gets sacked with bad votes almost straight away out of pure spite, people even go looking to nail me, but it seems to be that the problem is from the US participants If you post in the UK morning (8am) you escape the idiots who are all in bed! If I get bundled, I just delete the post and resubmit it.

From my perspective and perhaps I am in a minority here, I rarely comment on a good image, because quite frankly I think it is pointless - lets be honest here we either post an image because we have a good shot and want to share it, or are looking for help by way of constructive criticism. Having 20+posts all saying "great shot does nothing more than state the obvious and does little to develop the photographer. The real value of the forum is in constructive criticism. If I get more than 200 hits and no criticism hits then I am really chuffed, its nice perhaps to have 20 people posting "great shot", but for me the 180 lurkers is what I am looking for!

I have learned a darn site more from the subtle criticism points (or not so subtle!) than people saying great shot to an average composition or mediocre image

Although we've been through this type of treads on main discussion forum countless of times, it's still good to think about this subject now and then. I do agree with you Dave, a few cheers can make morning alarm clock a bit more pleasant to the ear.

As for me, it looks like I’m like tide coming up and down. I was very active once, then decided to leave the place for reasons known to some, but then decided to come back, especially since more landscapers came to stay. I'm trying to share my view and will continue to do so (and I'm still waiting for my photos to improve enough to get 20 replies ).

As for Tom's ratio, I guess I'm cursed for asking Jim to give my statistics back when NPN changed software some time ago. On old system there was only one box and he split comments to topics and replies on some odd statistics, but I'm still close to 1:3.5 .

Cheers,
Marko

An interesting thread. Just after I joined this forum there was a very long thread in a similar vein. A large number of posters in that thread indicated that comments from people who didn't post much, or whose work was not of the highest quality were more or less worthless. This pretty much put me off posting at the time and I moved my active participation to other forums.

I suspect that most of these people have now moved on but I still haven't got back into "posting mode" here.

Topics like this serve to 'gee up' things for a little while, but then life starts getting in the way again . Yep, it's a bit like a bar - there are those in enjoying the place every night, there are some pop in every few days, and there are those that pop in for a quiet drink when the place is quieter... we can cater for pretty much everyone .

People contribute what they can when they can, and people come & go - experience has proved that we can do little to influence the patterns except to try and stick to being a place with good atmosphere, and great beer & wine .

To those that do post - thanks for helping make the place what it is, all are appreciated. To the 'lurkers' and the viewers - 'no probs', you know where we are when you're ready to join in .

So everyone, grab your favourite bottle/can and sit back & enjoy the forum & it's eye candy photos .

Mike - "From my perspective and perhaps I am in a minority here, I rarely comment on a good image, because quite frankly I think it is pointless"
----How can this be? Its not just a helpdesk, its a forum, about appreciation and community, observing others techniques and asking questions about them or discussions to improve style, ideas and future planning. There is nothing worse than thinking you might have done some excellent work and getting three replies and 250 hits. All you think is, "Is it crap and not what I thought, b*llocks!"

Mike - Lets be honest here we either post an image because we have a good shot and want to share it, or are looking for help by way of constructive criticism.
-----Agreed, totally.

Mike - Having 20+posts all saying "great shot does nothing more than state the obvious and does little to develop the photographer. The real value of the forum is in constructive criticism.
----- It induces confidence that the photographer is getting it right, that is a huge development. Sometimes it doesnt need a drilling or critique, simple appreciation is enough. Lots of people ask for valid assessment and others ask for fresh perspective, forum critiques are very valuable, but the participant might happy to share personal elation, a celebration of getting up at the crack of dawn and pulling off a cracking photo. To feel it was posted into an empty void will do very little except dishearten surely.

Mike - If I get more than 200 hits and no criticism hits then I am really chuffed, its nice perhaps to have 20 people posting "great shot", but for me the 180 lurkers is what I am looking for!
----- Fair enough I can see the logic, but as you said you're probably in the minority. You said its nice to get 20 "great shot" replies, its just a shame that you feel its good to receive them and not to give them yourself.

Gary - A large number of posters in that thread indicated that comments from people who didn't post much, or whose work was not of the highest quality were more or less worthless. This pretty much put me off posting at the time and I moved my active participation to other forums.
-----that is a shame Gary, I dont think any work is worthless. Its difficult for participants to offer help if the door isnt opened to critique in the first place. Experienced photographers wont go jumping in with a load of unrequested critique as it can come across as self righteous advice, so no-one will start dishing it out if it isnt asked for as this may offend. Thats where the problem lies; image posts needs correctly wording and invites for critique must be clear or others will stay clear. The forum fails when a critique request is left to fester, and that isnt right but an invitation will never go unattended here, I am literally 100% on this.

Marko - decided to come back, especially since more landscapers came to stay.
----- Me too, Tristan asked me to join in again, I left here three years ago because of the same reason and I started posting work on the US NSN, but I am back here again because I enjoy the UK community more and find the main NSN ESandSky forum to ruled by mountain photographers and I feel little appreciation there. Landscapers like yourself, Tristan, Ian C and I can keep the scenics coming in and add more variety for sure.

Landscape photography is really in minority here, literally 80% of the comments on my work come from bird photographers, I can only return the gesture even with my limited avain knowledge, but I am sure my basic appreciation of their work wont be rejected. If you are a beginner or a expert there is a place for you here. It's better than hiding in the bushes!

Dave

Hey, what about my landscapes??? (yes it's a big laugh from me too!!)

I'm sometimes embarrassed to post my landscape shots because I know they're far from good shots, but I continue (you'll all be glad to hear I'm sure!) because of the class of landscapers that are on here. If I can't learn from them and their critiques, I doubt ever will, so their input is important to me even if I know my shots kind of embarrassing. So well done y'all!!

Also, when I look at my images from 12 monhs ago, they're nowhere near as good as they are now, and that is due to helpful critique, processing tips shared, compositional advice given.... all have aided my standards I feel.

If all I got was views and a couple of "good shots" I wouldn't have improved much. I know it's all subjective but you can get blinkered with your own images at times thinking they're good.

As for views, it's not like the main forum where a thumbnail is indicative of the shot, people have to click to know what's inside, so it's not a good indication at all. I could come onto the forum with a new name and get as many views as anyone else I reckon with a decent title, not because of a photographers name, so views are pretty irrelevant except for this purpose of lurkers of course.

It's a great site and I appreciate all the comments and help I receive.

Graeme, I think that you are good example of what photographer can benefit of by posting photos and asking questions on this forum. Your landscapes came quite some distance since you started IMO.

Cheers,
Marko