This is my first post here, and I'm stuck on what is the right way to go with this. I'm in the middle of my first art show, a returning customer has interest in my new website pics, and I'm also setting up greeting cards for a nonprofit to help them make some money and gain some free advertising. Now that I look at all this, mebbe it's time to start a business officially???
Anyways, tonight I receive an email from a professor at FSU who would like to use one of my waterfall images for a cover picture of his upcoming textbook. He mentions crediting the shot and possibly adding a website link but no mention about purchasing rights or any other compensation.
Any thoughts about this and where can I research this better to sound more informed?
Thanks,
Kevin
Posted by Liz Masoner on November 27, 2007 at 12:11 PM
Hey Kevin,
Wow have you got a lot on your plate right now! I'd suggest PhotoQuote or use the online Stock Photo Price Calculator (not as good but free use) http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm
The cover page of a textbook pricing doesn't work right on the free pricing program but the full page illustration can be adjusted to get in the ballpark.
Keep in mind the professor will be getting paid for his textbook sales, it isn't like he's asking for charitable use or anything.
Good Luck,
Liz
http://photography.about.com
Posted by Steve Foss on November 27, 2007 at 1:48 PM
I echo Liz here. Textbook publishers are for-profit businesses and runs tend to be pretty big, depending on what classes the books will be used for. In other words, a biology 101 text is likely to get a huge press run, while a book for advanced grad students on, say, the reproductive habits of eastern North American newts, will be a smaller run. And the size of the print run is one thing that determines cover shot sales. Bigger run, bigger money. And giving you a photo credit and Web site link should be part of the deal.
Wow! I'll have to diverge a bit based on my career in the academic world, or perhaps expose embarrassing things about my branch of academia. But first runs of texts tend to be really small. Texts have such short lives and often such narrow audiences that much of the publishing is done by smaller presses, and notably university presses. Only after demand develops do the runs get large, and often rights are purchased by a big publisher from a smaller one.
As Steve says, pricing depends on the size of the run, but you're talking to the wrong person in the prof. You need to be talking to the publisher. I'd say something like "Wow! Congratulations on your text, and I'm excited that you want my shot for a cover. Here's my contact info for you to pass on to your publisher, and I'll look forward to their contact."
I wouldn't expect a lot on a first run unless it is big (doubtful), but I'd make very sure of the terms for repeat runs. Make sure that the price you quote and the rights you grant are one-time only, and that further runs will require renegotiation based on run size.
And yes, you definitely need to start your official business. Talk immediately with a CPA about money management and tax accounting. Then develop a business plan. Then research pricing, copyrights, and contracting terms. My wife is a potent business manager, and I'm fond of her stand (foot stomp and all): "A photography business is 5% photography and 95% business."
Posted by Steve Foss on November 27, 2007 at 3:57 PM
Thanks for adding that about the publisher, Hank. I thought the same thing but forgot to include that.
Posted by Daniel Moore on November 28, 2007 at 12:57 AM
I am one of those students that have to buy these kinds of books....and they are NOT cheap. Last year I had to by a book that cost me $250+ US...and that's just for One book. ( I do not know how schools can get away with charging us that much). Most of the time the cost of my books is more than my tuition. For some reason college text books are really high priced. I do not know if all that extra money goes into the authors pocket or not...but if it does, you should be able to charge a little more. Even if only 500 copies are printed, but their charging $55-$150 for the book, its like saying 5,000 copies at $10.00. So its something else to look into.
Unless things have changed in recent years, almost none of the money goes to the authors (professors). They mostly get their rewards indirectly via promotions and raises at their university because they spawned a text book. In broad terms texts are graphics rich and have to undergo extensive (and expensive) editing, proof reading, professional peer review and more.
As you might know, the more you print of individual anythings, the cheaper it is to print them per unit, but small runs are very expensive to print, in order to recoup all those costs and still make a buck for the publisher. Subsequent runs are bunches cheaper to produce because all the expensive work was done on the first run.
Not justifying the process, but trying to explain it. I know of one prof who decided he was getting ripped off and put his book out through the traditional book press. He had worked 15 years writing it, then got a pretty substantial advance from the publisher to cover his last couple of years of revisions, etc. In the end, he hadn't paid back his advance via royalties before the publisher released the text to the sale tables of the big box stores at 50% off. After working 17 years total on the project, he still "owes" the publisher close to $15,000 for his unfulfilled advance.
It's all a numbers game and it stinks. But expecting much for photos in a first printing is pretty optimistic. That's why I made the recommendation that contracts be written for single use, and that subsequent printings would require a separate negotiation. I.e., if the book hits it big, you need to be sure you get a piece of the action. But just in case it doesn't hit it big, the publisher isn't likely to be very generous on the first printing. And they'll fight and scream about upping the ante for subsequent runs.
Posted by Ron Niebrugge on November 28, 2007 at 1:32 AM
The size of the print run and publisher are important pieces of information. You really can't come up with a value without the print run information.
I might add, in our experience text book publishers are some of the least price sensitive and best paying customers. The right image is far more important then a cheap image. NPN does not allow us to provide direct pricing advice in posts like this, but to give you a rough idea, a moderate sized image (1/2 page) interior image in a book with a print run of 50,000 - 100,000 well pay a few hundred dollars per image for one time use. So obviously the cover pays many times that amount.
Good luck!
Posted by Ron Niebrugge on November 28, 2007 at 1:49 AM
"Unless things have changed in recent years, almost none of the money goes to the authors (professors)"
If your friend still has to pay back $15,000 of his advance - that leads me to believe that his advance was more then $15,000. I think where Hank I may differ is that we apply different meaning to the definition of paying well. Most general photo type book publishers I have talked with are doing well if they offer more then a $5,000 advance. I would consider a publisher welling to pay an advance in excess of 15k and good paying customer, and one that would likely pay $1,000 plus for a cover.
We don't disagree Ron. I cited that as a worst case example of how badly authors can do. In particular for college texts, they get next to nothing for their writing efforts. As for the range of prices you cite for textbok photos, that's about what I expect for print runs as large as 50-100k. But when it gets down to the 500 or even 1000 copies typical of many first runs for textbooks, prices fall through the floor.
Well, folks, this is an interesting read. I found out tonight that this is an Oxford Handbook for mainly academics with a first run of 1000 copies, to be updated on a needed basis only (and it sounds like the information won't need to be updated too much) with sales dictating further printing.
I've seen a wide range of pricing for images on the internet, but I would be surprised if they don't want to pay anything for the pic. The prof seems firm that he can get a good image elsewhere already, yet he approached me personally. I think the publisher line mentioned is probably a good way to go so there aren't too many bargaining parties.
I just got off the phone with a scientist/professor I'm working on a project with, and did I ever get a glimpse into the NEW world of technical publishing.
He's a co-author on a paper being prepared for a big international journal in his academic field and wanting to use one of my photos. We're not talking a book here, but essentially a periodical like a technical magazine. The scientists who want their work published have to PAY to have their articles appear. Here's the fee structure:
Color graphic, whether a table or a photo--- $900 each
B/W graphic- $350 each
Text- $250/page
His paper is larger than average, so they are having to shell out just over $9,000 to have it published. Average papers fall into the $4,000-$5,000 fee range.
And the publication has 45,000 paid subscribers worldwide.
Publication fees are now a budget item in grants and other sources of funding, cuzz if you don't pay, you don't get published. And you have to get published as a scientist, in order to get raises or promotions, much less to keep your job.
In that environment, it's easy to see why scientists might be willing to write a text book for little or no pay, maybe even feeling like they're getting away with something. Then we come along and ask to be PAID for our photos!
Hmmm. NPN needs an emoticon with a little more emphasis than Eek.
My scientific shooting in recent years has been on contract to individual researchers and research projects for very specific images. Looks like that's a good thing, as opposed to shooting on spec and hoping to get paid by a publisher someday. "Stock" photography for science looks like an endangered species in the journal arena, so I wonder what that spells for the textbook world?
Discussion
13 repliesThis is my first post here, and I'm stuck on what is the right way to go with this. I'm in the middle of my first art show, a returning customer has interest in my new website pics, and I'm also setting up greeting cards for a nonprofit to help them make some money and gain some free advertising. Now that I look at all this, mebbe it's time to start a business officially???
Anyways, tonight I receive an email from a professor at FSU who would like to use one of my waterfall images for a cover picture of his upcoming textbook. He mentions crediting the shot and possibly adding a website link but no mention about purchasing rights or any other compensation.
Any thoughts about this and where can I research this better to sound more informed?
Thanks,
Kevin
Wow have you got a lot on your plate right now! I'd suggest PhotoQuote or use the online Stock Photo Price Calculator (not as good but free use) http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm
The cover page of a textbook pricing doesn't work right on the free pricing program but the full page illustration can be adjusted to get in the ballpark.
Keep in mind the professor will be getting paid for his textbook sales, it isn't like he's asking for charitable use or anything.
Good Luck,
Liz
http://photography.about.com
As Steve says, pricing depends on the size of the run, but you're talking to the wrong person in the prof. You need to be talking to the publisher. I'd say something like "Wow! Congratulations on your text, and I'm excited that you want my shot for a cover. Here's my contact info for you to pass on to your publisher, and I'll look forward to their contact."
I wouldn't expect a lot on a first run unless it is big (doubtful), but I'd make very sure of the terms for repeat runs. Make sure that the price you quote and the rights you grant are one-time only, and that further runs will require renegotiation based on run size.
And yes, you definitely need to start your official business. Talk immediately with a CPA about money management and tax accounting. Then develop a business plan. Then research pricing, copyrights, and contracting terms. My wife is a potent business manager, and I'm fond of her stand (foot stomp and all): "A photography business is 5% photography and 95% business."
As you might know, the more you print of individual anythings, the cheaper it is to print them per unit, but small runs are very expensive to print, in order to recoup all those costs and still make a buck for the publisher. Subsequent runs are bunches cheaper to produce because all the expensive work was done on the first run.
Not justifying the process, but trying to explain it. I know of one prof who decided he was getting ripped off and put his book out through the traditional book press. He had worked 15 years writing it, then got a pretty substantial advance from the publisher to cover his last couple of years of revisions, etc. In the end, he hadn't paid back his advance via royalties before the publisher released the text to the sale tables of the big box stores at 50% off. After working 17 years total on the project, he still "owes" the publisher close to $15,000 for his unfulfilled advance.
It's all a numbers game and it stinks. But expecting much for photos in a first printing is pretty optimistic. That's why I made the recommendation that contracts be written for single use, and that subsequent printings would require a separate negotiation. I.e., if the book hits it big, you need to be sure you get a piece of the action. But just in case it doesn't hit it big, the publisher isn't likely to be very generous on the first printing. And they'll fight and scream about upping the ante for subsequent runs.
I might add, in our experience text book publishers are some of the least price sensitive and best paying customers. The right image is far more important then a cheap image. NPN does not allow us to provide direct pricing advice in posts like this, but to give you a rough idea, a moderate sized image (1/2 page) interior image in a book with a print run of 50,000 - 100,000 well pay a few hundred dollars per image for one time use. So obviously the cover pays many times that amount.
Good luck!
If your friend still has to pay back $15,000 of his advance - that leads me to believe that his advance was more then $15,000. I think where Hank I may differ is that we apply different meaning to the definition of paying well. Most general photo type book publishers I have talked with are doing well if they offer more then a $5,000 advance. I would consider a publisher welling to pay an advance in excess of 15k and good paying customer, and one that would likely pay $1,000 plus for a cover.
I've seen a wide range of pricing for images on the internet, but I would be surprised if they don't want to pay anything for the pic. The prof seems firm that he can get a good image elsewhere already, yet he approached me personally. I think the publisher line mentioned is probably a good way to go so there aren't too many bargaining parties.
I'll let y'all know what happens next.
Kevin
I just got off the phone with a scientist/professor I'm working on a project with, and did I ever get a glimpse into the NEW world of technical publishing.
He's a co-author on a paper being prepared for a big international journal in his academic field and wanting to use one of my photos. We're not talking a book here, but essentially a periodical like a technical magazine. The scientists who want their work published have to PAY to have their articles appear. Here's the fee structure:
Color graphic, whether a table or a photo--- $900 each
B/W graphic- $350 each
Text- $250/page
His paper is larger than average, so they are having to shell out just over $9,000 to have it published. Average papers fall into the $4,000-$5,000 fee range.
And the publication has 45,000 paid subscribers worldwide.
Publication fees are now a budget item in grants and other sources of funding, cuzz if you don't pay, you don't get published. And you have to get published as a scientist, in order to get raises or promotions, much less to keep your job.
In that environment, it's easy to see why scientists might be willing to write a text book for little or no pay, maybe even feeling like they're getting away with something. Then we come along and ask to be PAID for our photos!
Hmmm. NPN needs an emoticon with a little more emphasis than Eek.
My scientific shooting in recent years has been on contract to individual researchers and research projects for very specific images. Looks like that's a good thing, as opposed to shooting on spec and hoping to get paid by a publisher someday. "Stock" photography for science looks like an endangered species in the journal arena, so I wonder what that spells for the textbook world?
Kevin