Posted by Dan Truong on December 2, 2007 at 4:43 PM
So I'm likely gonna buy some filters for my expensinve 72mm diam lenses. I'm thinking Hoya UV and polarizers, but these are expensive for what they are.
Here's a shop that sells them, with a wide selection:
- What's the technical difference between green, blue, hmc, smc pro1... I'm kind of confused. If someone knows, did I get this right for UV filters? There's a 5X price range.
SMC: standard 5mm high ring
HMC: low rise 3mm ring with no fron thread?
green: no coat /philipines?
blue: mon coat / japan?
pro1/hmc: multi coat / japan?
- Practical question
Is there a visible practical difference between no coat, mono coat and multi coat?
- Circular polarizers:
There's again many kinds green, blue, hmc, pro1, superHmc, moose (warm 81A + cir). What are the differences.
I think for polarizers, I car how many f-stops I loose from the coating, as well as reflections/ghosting.
Other brands question:
What do I gain/loose by going to Cockin, B&W or cheaper brand like Tiffen, Sunpack or other? Are there other good brands at more reasonable prices to look at?
For example, I can get a cheap 3-filter "multicoated" kit off eBay for $25 (no names like Merkury Optics, Crystal Optics, etc.).
After all it's just a dang flat piece of glass with some simple anti reflective coating, likely similar to what they put on prescription glasses. It's not that expensive to make, and way over priced considered what it is.
Vigneting:
Assume I want aUV filter on all lenses, and would stack an optional CIR filter on top, that would likely create vigneting. I assume all lenses are designed to accomodate one 5mm (standard) filter, but might not accomodate 2.
Has anyone used a step-up ring to solve that? If so what's a good solution? Is this stack OK:
Dan, I'll help with some of this. Hopefully others will weigh in, as well.
First: Filters are not created equal. A good filter will have a brass mount and smooth threads, high quality optical glass that is flat and clear. A good filter will be multi-coated to tame ghosts and flare.
If your lens is a zoom with wide angle focal length, I would go with a low-rise filter to prevent vignetting.
"Is there a visible practical difference between no coat, mono coat and multi coat?" Filters with no coating will not tame flare; same with single coat. The differences are very real. Buy a mutli-coated filter.
I would buy a polarizer that is neutral in color. If you have a warming polarizer, but need a cooler image; you're stuck. A typical polarizer will cost you about 1-2/3 to 2 stops regardless of the apprent darkening of the viewfinder image, as you turn the ring. Light loss from coatings on any filter is negligible.
All filters, except for a UV or Skylight, will result in some light loss. The loss is expressed by the 'filter factor'. For example, a filter with a factor of '2' means that you will lose 1 stop of light, so you would increase your exposure by 1-stop to compensate.
Going cheap on filters doesn't make sense: Why put a piece of infierior glass in front of a fine lens?
Some Cokin and Tiffen filters are pretty good, and some have ghastly color casts. I use B&W-Pro series filters. Yep, they aren't inexpensive, but the quality and durability is excellent.
Dan, I have seen off-brand filters that were of very poor quality. The glass had obvious ripples, the coatings (if they had any) were uneven and the threads were poor. Hi-Tech, Lee, Hoya HMC, B&W-Pro, Heliopan, and Singh-Ray are at the top of the filter heap.
I hope this helps, Dan,
-PB
Posted by Harley Goldman on December 2, 2007 at 10:36 PM
I am with Preston on this one. I have some Tiffen filters and they work fine. I have a couple that give me grief, because they are not brass. The non-brass tend to stick more. I now buy only B+W. There are other good brands, too. Not to say Tiffens are not good, but I would prefer to stick with brass for all future purchases. Definitely go with the multi-coated, for the reasons Preston stated. Well worth. Why spend a lot of $$ for good lenses, then put a cheap filter in front of it.
Posted by Richard Wong on December 3, 2007 at 1:06 AM
I woudln't buy Cockin, they suck. I've had a few tiffens and hoyas and they don't affect the image quality, in other words they do the trick. Not worth it like Harley said to buy good lenses and put crap glass in front of it. everything is a flat piece of glass whether its good or bad, but the difference will be in your file quality.
Posted by Dan Truong on December 3, 2007 at 2:19 AM
OK, OK, so I need to buy nice multi-coated uv filters that are so good they do nothing but keep dust off my lens
Heliopan: best filters. Anodized brass rings with 1 more thread than BW to stay tight, Zeiss Schott glass, thinner profile than BW, 14 layers & hard coated both sides. Germany.
Tiffen: standard are not coated. aluminum ring, some UV/skylight with multicoating. Glass laminate. More scratch resistant than coated filters.
Hoya: anodized aluminum. Green: uncoated. Standard: mono coated. HMC: 97% light transmission, super-HMC: 12 layers for 1B and UV, 7 for cir pol. ultra: multicoated thin ring no threads 3mm (5mm for cir pol)
Bower: similar to hoya standard mono coat.
Kenko: standard: mono coat, multicoat transm 97%, super multicoat 99.7%
Dust Filter Options:
Skylight 1A : pink to reduce blue cast
UV: removes UV to remove haze
UV Haze1 or UV Haze2 (what's the difference?)
Hoya Multi Coated 3 layers: HMC (97% transmittance) UV $38
Super Hoya Multi Coated 7 layers: HSMC (99.7% transmitane, 5mm thick) $48
Hoya Ultra-thin Multi Coated: U HMC (3mm thick) $49
Hoya Pro-1: Pro1 HSMC (99.7% transmittance) $79/$74
kenko mono coat (skipped)
Kenko 1A multicoat $35
Kenko Pro SMC UV (same as hoya pro1)
Kenko UV multicoat $35
My take:
Hoya SMC $48 seems a good value, Tiffen $29~$44 I don't know which are good/bad pros/cons, BW 010 MRC $68 is it better than Hoya besides brass?, Heliopan not sure if $61 is coated, kenko not worth the risk vs hoya for price delta.
=> Hoya SMC?
Polarizers:
Hoya std circ pol $64
Hoya HMC ultrathin cir pol + UV 5mm no thread $138
Hoya HMC cir pol $120
Hoya HSMC thin cir pol 5mm no thread $136
Hoya HSMC circ pol + cleaning kit $148
Hoya Pro1 HSMC 7layers cir pol 5mm threaded $192
Hoya Pro1 HSMC 12 layers (linear?) $79
Hoya Pro1 digital DMC cir pol $172
BW circ pol $155 ($144 @ 77mm)
BW circ pol slim no thread $187 ($180 @ 77mm)
BW Kaesemann MRC circ pol $183
BW Kaesemann MRC circ pol slim $210 ($206 @ 77mm)
Heliopan circ pol SH-PMC multicoated $168
Heliopan circ pol SH-PMC multicoated slim $193
Heliopan Circ pol $121
Heliopan Circ pol slim $121
Kenko pol $28/$20 sale
Kenko Circ Pol multicoat (best pol on market?) $77
Hoya SMC $137 and Heliopan SH-PMC $168 are pricey. I could go with BW 77mm with a step-up ring to avoid vigneting for $144, or go with the Kenko value for $77 (multicoated, made in Japan, seems twin company to Hoya).
In my opinion, UV filters don't buy you much. Unless you are working in very dusty locations or in salt spray, save your money or spend it on either color correction filters or a good quality circular polarizer.
My most often used filters are 81-series warming filters; usually an 81-a or b. When I say often, I mean maybe 30% of the time.
I don't use a polarizer much, either. The reason being, that with a 4x5, the 2-stops of light absorption by the filter may result in exposure times longer than I want, or aperture values that are too low for the image I have in mind.
IMO, the B&W filters (made by Schneider Optik-the same folks who make some of the finest LF lenses) are the best bang for your buck.
What I am saying here is that filters are not a panacea, except in exceptional circumstances (IR for example), or when one is shooting Black & White where filters are used for contrast control. So, buy quality filters that you will use.
-PB
Posted by Richard Wong on December 3, 2007 at 2:57 PM
I might add that I live in the desert and shoot at the coast a lot so I coudn't really live w/o a UV filter. You can throw filters away or wash them off at home, lens not so easy... Since you are a climber then yes it would be a good idea to get one. I'm trying to get away from the polarizer because the skies look too fake on a wide angle lens. I think a standard UV filter by Hoya or Tiffen is more than sufficient. The other gimmicks like haze filters are just marketing ploys at making more profit margin off UV filters.
Posted by Dan Truong on December 4, 2007 at 6:59 AM
Richard,
I definitely need UV filters: I shoot rocks and water where there's lot of reflections, and in hard light conditions like the shade or mix sun/shade where I often get a blue cast.
And yes, I'm often in dusty situations, and the lenses I want to protect are becoming expensive now.
How come people accept Tiffen filters as they would BW or Hoya?
As I understand it, they are not coated, and don't seem to be that special besides being hard laminated glass. And by "standard" Hoya you mean the green non coated or mono coated? Not the HMC, SMC or Pro1?
Preston,
Talking over this with Anil, we agreed that the choices would be different with a DSLR and a medium format film camera. For example the warming and color filters are pretty much obsolete as they can be replaced by post processing or white balance adjustments.
I understand what you're saying about post processing and white balance. My philosophy has always been to do all that I can to get the best corrected image at the time of exposure so that further processing is kept to a minimum. A circular polarizer will be needed for a DSLR, though, because of the nature of the sensor.
Kind regards.
-PB
Posted by Richard Wong on December 4, 2007 at 4:04 PM
I have no idea about the technical manufacturing process, I just know what works. Tiffen makes quality glass in my view. Cockin doesn't.
Posted by Dan Truong on December 5, 2007 at 7:28 AM
Preston,
Ideally yes, I'd like to sit behind the PC as little as possible.
Raw DSLR photos need post processing, in part because a lot of it is otherwise psot processing done by the camera's CPU, like sharpness, white balance and a bunch of other settings. That's the nature of digital vs film. Even with film, the development process was an art.
A friend told me his startup is even going further: they are developping a method where you won't even need to deal with what's sharp when you shoot, and instead you will be able to decide that during post processing.
Times are changing, and the act of taking a photo is evolving...
Richard,
For Tiffen, which filter models do you use? It seems that like Hoya, they have different lines with different glass.
Posted by Richard Wong on December 5, 2007 at 2:11 PM
I don't know, I just go to the store and ask for UV filters. Usually they'll give me a Hoya in a green plastic box.
Posted by Dan Truong on December 5, 2007 at 10:02 PM
The green Hoya is no good. It's not multi-coated. You need at minimum their blue box (mono), but better is the HMC, SMC or Pro1 D
I guess you got a good filter in the sense it's flat, but you're exposing yourself to flaring since there's no anti reflective coating... Online, my search reveals that many people are happy just with the green Hoya.
Posted by Dan Truong on December 5, 2007 at 10:45 PM
Kenko mono cir pol wide $55
Kenko mono cir pol $43
Kenko multi cir pol $76
Hoya standard no coat cir pol $64/$54
Hoya HMC cir pol $119/$102
Hoya SMC wide-angle thin cir pol $137/$117
Hoya Pro1 DMC cir pol $169/$146
eBay Hong Kong ($10 S&H)
kenko == hoya
Kenko protector Pro1D $21
Kenko UV Pro1D $20
Kenko Pro1D CPL $45
No vs Mono vs multi-coat
(dpreview forum)
- All you need is a dual Coated UV filter for $10.00 in 55mm.
- UV does nothing at elevations below 3,000 feet and the light transmission between the multi and the dual is 1/16th of an F-stop.
=> Since I shoot at up to 10K feet, I'll buy multicoat :)
CameraHobby
...
Mechanical build quality for a few of my Hoya filters have not inspired confidence with loose glass elements within the metal ring, unlike the solid build and feel of all my B+W filters.
...
If you don't clean multi-coated filters correctly, you might end up with a piece of glass that's far worse off than any cheaper, single-coated filter
...
They're enough trouble that I just get the regular B+W UV
...
As much as I have difficulty cleaning Hoyas, B+Ws are easy to clean and stay that way with no spots or gunk still clinging to the glass (most likely the result of my B+W's being single-coated versus Hoya's multi-coated HMC and SMC filters).
Discussion
14 repliesHere's a shop that sells them, with a wide selection:
2filter or PhotoFilter
So I have a few Hoya questions:
- What's the technical difference between green, blue, hmc, smc pro1... I'm kind of confused. If someone knows, did I get this right for UV filters? There's a 5X price range.
SMC: standard 5mm high ring
HMC: low rise 3mm ring with no fron thread?
green: no coat /philipines?
blue: mon coat / japan?
pro1/hmc: multi coat / japan?
- Practical question
Is there a visible practical difference between no coat, mono coat and multi coat?
- Circular polarizers:
There's again many kinds green, blue, hmc, pro1, superHmc, moose (warm 81A + cir). What are the differences.
I think for polarizers, I car how many f-stops I loose from the coating, as well as reflections/ghosting.
Other brands question:
What do I gain/loose by going to Cockin, B&W or cheaper brand like Tiffen, Sunpack or other? Are there other good brands at more reasonable prices to look at?
For example, I can get a cheap 3-filter "multicoated" kit off eBay for $25 (no names like Merkury Optics, Crystal Optics, etc.).
After all it's just a dang flat piece of glass with some simple anti reflective coating, likely similar to what they put on prescription glasses. It's not that expensive to make, and way over priced considered what it is.
Vigneting:
Assume I want aUV filter on all lenses, and would stack an optional CIR filter on top, that would likely create vigneting. I assume all lenses are designed to accomodate one 5mm (standard) filter, but might not accomodate 2.
Has anyone used a step-up ring to solve that? If so what's a good solution? Is this stack OK:
Lens
72mm UV
72-77mm step-up
77mm CIR (or ND or...)
First: Filters are not created equal. A good filter will have a brass mount and smooth threads, high quality optical glass that is flat and clear. A good filter will be multi-coated to tame ghosts and flare.
If your lens is a zoom with wide angle focal length, I would go with a low-rise filter to prevent vignetting.
"Is there a visible practical difference between no coat, mono coat and multi coat?" Filters with no coating will not tame flare; same with single coat. The differences are very real. Buy a mutli-coated filter.
I would buy a polarizer that is neutral in color. If you have a warming polarizer, but need a cooler image; you're stuck. A typical polarizer will cost you about 1-2/3 to 2 stops regardless of the apprent darkening of the viewfinder image, as you turn the ring. Light loss from coatings on any filter is negligible.
All filters, except for a UV or Skylight, will result in some light loss. The loss is expressed by the 'filter factor'. For example, a filter with a factor of '2' means that you will lose 1 stop of light, so you would increase your exposure by 1-stop to compensate.
Going cheap on filters doesn't make sense: Why put a piece of infierior glass in front of a fine lens?
Some Cokin and Tiffen filters are pretty good, and some have ghastly color casts. I use B&W-Pro series filters. Yep, they aren't inexpensive, but the quality and durability is excellent.
Dan, I have seen off-brand filters that were of very poor quality. The glass had obvious ripples, the coatings (if they had any) were uneven and the threads were poor. Hi-Tech, Lee, Hoya HMC, B&W-Pro, Heliopan, and Singh-Ray are at the top of the filter heap.
I hope this helps, Dan,
-PB
So now let's go shopping for options for ex. with the help of Robin Kanta Photo Supply store...
Brands distinctions:
BW: schott glass, brass.
Heliopan: best filters. Anodized brass rings with 1 more thread than BW to stay tight, Zeiss Schott glass, thinner profile than BW, 14 layers & hard coated both sides. Germany.
Tiffen: standard are not coated. aluminum ring, some UV/skylight with multicoating. Glass laminate. More scratch resistant than coated filters.
Hoya: anodized aluminum. Green: uncoated. Standard: mono coated. HMC: 97% light transmission, super-HMC: 12 layers for 1B and UV, 7 for cir pol. ultra: multicoated thin ring no threads 3mm (5mm for cir pol)
Bower: similar to hoya standard mono coat.
Kenko: standard: mono coat, multicoat transm 97%, super multicoat 99.7%
Dust Filter Options:
Skylight 1A : pink to reduce blue cast
UV: removes UV to remove haze
UV Haze1 or UV Haze2 (what's the difference?)
Hoya Multi Coated 3 layers: HMC (97% transmittance) UV $38
Super Hoya Multi Coated 7 layers: HSMC (99.7% transmitane, 5mm thick) $48
Hoya Ultra-thin Multi Coated: U HMC (3mm thick) $49
Hoya Pro-1: Pro1 HSMC (99.7% transmittance) $79/$74
Tiffen UV (absorbs 71% UV) $31 (bulk sale)
Tiffen 1A $29
Tiffen UV Haze1 $29
Tiffen Haze2 $69
Tiffen untraclear water white $44
BW UV 010 MRC F-Pro factor 1 4mm brass $68
BW 1A KR 1.5 MRC F-Pro factor 1.1 brass $109
BW UV 010 slim 3mm no thread $144
Heliopan KR1.5 slim with threads $61
Heliopan UV slim with threads $61
Heliopan UV SH-PMC multicoated $115
Heliopan KR1.5 SH-PMC multicoated $100
kenko mono coat (skipped)
Kenko 1A multicoat $35
Kenko Pro SMC UV (same as hoya pro1)
Kenko UV multicoat $35
My take:
Hoya SMC $48 seems a good value, Tiffen $29~$44 I don't know which are good/bad pros/cons, BW 010 MRC $68 is it better than Hoya besides brass?, Heliopan not sure if $61 is coated, kenko not worth the risk vs hoya for price delta.
=> Hoya SMC?
Polarizers:
Hoya std circ pol $64
Hoya HMC ultrathin cir pol + UV 5mm no thread $138
Hoya HMC cir pol $120
Hoya HSMC thin cir pol 5mm no thread $136
Hoya HSMC circ pol + cleaning kit $148
Hoya Pro1 HSMC 7layers cir pol 5mm threaded $192
Hoya Pro1 HSMC 12 layers (linear?) $79
Hoya Pro1 digital DMC cir pol $172
Tiffen Polarizer $40
Tiffen circular polarizer $68 ($98 82mm + kit)
Tiffen Linear low light $80
BW circ pol $155 ($144 @ 77mm)
BW circ pol slim no thread $187 ($180 @ 77mm)
BW Kaesemann MRC circ pol $183
BW Kaesemann MRC circ pol slim $210 ($206 @ 77mm)
Heliopan circ pol SH-PMC multicoated $168
Heliopan circ pol SH-PMC multicoated slim $193
Heliopan Circ pol $121
Heliopan Circ pol slim $121
Kenko pol $28/$20 sale
Kenko Circ Pol multicoat (best pol on market?) $77
Hoya SMC $137 and Heliopan SH-PMC $168 are pricey. I could go with BW 77mm with a step-up ring to avoid vigneting for $144, or go with the Kenko value for $77 (multicoated, made in Japan, seems twin company to Hoya).
=> Kenko?
Kits:
Hoya Pro1 Dig circ pol 5mm, UV SMC 5mm ring, cleaning stuff: $145.
Slim: Hoya pro1 circ pol 5mm, pro1 protection filter 3mm ring, cleaning stuff: $154
Pro1 circ pol, BW FPro UV MRC filter, cleaning stuff $196
Tiffen ND0.6 (2fstop), circ pol, UV protector, cleaning stuff: $147
I could go for the kit: $145 for both filters (SMC UV $48, cir pol $97 instead of $172?).
In my opinion, UV filters don't buy you much. Unless you are working in very dusty locations or in salt spray, save your money or spend it on either color correction filters or a good quality circular polarizer.
My most often used filters are 81-series warming filters; usually an 81-a or b. When I say often, I mean maybe 30% of the time.
I don't use a polarizer much, either. The reason being, that with a 4x5, the 2-stops of light absorption by the filter may result in exposure times longer than I want, or aperture values that are too low for the image I have in mind.
IMO, the B&W filters (made by Schneider Optik-the same folks who make some of the finest LF lenses) are the best bang for your buck.
What I am saying here is that filters are not a panacea, except in exceptional circumstances (IR for example), or when one is shooting Black & White where filters are used for contrast control. So, buy quality filters that you will use.
-PB
Richard,
I definitely need UV filters: I shoot rocks and water where there's lot of reflections, and in hard light conditions like the shade or mix sun/shade where I often get a blue cast.
And yes, I'm often in dusty situations, and the lenses I want to protect are becoming expensive now.
How come people accept Tiffen filters as they would BW or Hoya?
As I understand it, they are not coated, and don't seem to be that special besides being hard laminated glass. And by "standard" Hoya you mean the green non coated or mono coated? Not the HMC, SMC or Pro1?
Preston,
Talking over this with Anil, we agreed that the choices would be different with a DSLR and a medium format film camera. For example the warming and color filters are pretty much obsolete as they can be replaced by post processing or white balance adjustments.
I understand what you're saying about post processing and white balance. My philosophy has always been to do all that I can to get the best corrected image at the time of exposure so that further processing is kept to a minimum. A circular polarizer will be needed for a DSLR, though, because of the nature of the sensor.
Kind regards.
-PB
Ideally yes, I'd like to sit behind the PC as little as possible.
Raw DSLR photos need post processing, in part because a lot of it is otherwise psot processing done by the camera's CPU, like sharpness, white balance and a bunch of other settings. That's the nature of digital vs film. Even with film, the development process was an art.
A friend told me his startup is even going further: they are developping a method where you won't even need to deal with what's sharp when you shoot, and instead you will be able to decide that during post processing.
Times are changing, and the act of taking a photo is evolving...
Richard,
For Tiffen, which filter models do you use? It seems that like Hoya, they have different lines with different glass.
I guess you got a good filter in the sense it's flat, but you're exposing yourself to flaring since there's no anti reflective coating... Online, my search reveals that many people are happy just with the green Hoya.
2Filter (public price/real price) NH, free S&H>$66.
Hoya SMC 1B $48/$37
Hoya SMC UV $48/$32
Hoya Pro1 D DMC - clear $67/$39
Hoya Pro1 D DMC - UV $73/$44
BW FPro double coat UV 010 $44/$44
BW FPro multicoat UV 010 MRC $62/$60
BW 1.5sky slim $40/$104 (only saves 1mm: 3mm vs 4mm for FPro)
BW 1.5sky slim MRC $143
Tiffen digital ultra clear WW water white 5mm $47/$32
Tiffen UV P 5mm $31/$16
Tiffen UV-1 haze 5.5mm $30 / $21
Sunpack protector Digital HG multicoat 3mm $32/$32
Hoya linear pol $35/$29
Hoya green no coat cir pol $32/$32
Hoya blue mon coat cir pol $$65/$53
Hoya HMC cir pol $120/$81
Hoya SMC cir pol $138/$89
Hoya Pro1 D cir pol $172/$127
BW cir pol $99/$99
BW cir pol MRC $141
BW MRC caesemann cir pol $153
BW KR1.5 warm cir pol $223
BW cir pol slim $121
Tiffen cir pol $68/$55
Tiffen wide angle cir pol $123/$103
Tiffen low light pol $39/$33
Tiffen warm pol $73/$61
Hoya ND fader dual linear polarizer N.A. ($54 58mm)
Hoya half dark gray $57/$47
Step-up rings 72mm to 77mm
noname $8.17 (lowest profile)
kenko $9.44 (lowest profile)
BW $21.41
Tiffen $19.11
FilterHouse TX free S&H > $50
Kenko mono UV guard $13
Kenko mono UV Haze $21
Kenko mono Sky 1B $21
Kenko HMC Sky 1B $24
Kenko HMC UV Haze $24
Hoya standard no coat UV $31/$27
Hoya SMC UV $48/$41
Hoya ultrathin HMC clear $49/$42
Hoya ultrathin HMC 1B $49/$42
Hoya ultrathin HMC UV $49/$42
Hoya HMC UV $37/$32
Hoya Pro1 DMC protector $57/$50
Hoya Pro1 DMC UV $72/$62
Tiffen UV Haze1 $22/$14 (sale)
Kenko mono cir pol wide $55
Kenko mono cir pol $43
Kenko multi cir pol $76
Hoya standard no coat cir pol $64/$54
Hoya HMC cir pol $119/$102
Hoya SMC wide-angle thin cir pol $137/$117
Hoya Pro1 DMC cir pol $169/$146
eBay Hong Kong ($10 S&H)
kenko == hoya
Kenko protector Pro1D $21
Kenko UV Pro1D $20
Kenko Pro1D CPL $45
Adorame
No vs Mono vs multi-coat
(dpreview forum)
- All you need is a dual Coated UV filter for $10.00 in 55mm.
- UV does nothing at elevations below 3,000 feet and the light transmission between the multi and the dual is 1/16th of an F-stop.
=> Since I shoot at up to 10K feet, I'll buy multicoat :)
CameraHobby
...
Mechanical build quality for a few of my Hoya filters have not inspired confidence with loose glass elements within the metal ring, unlike the solid build and feel of all my B+W filters.
...
If you don't clean multi-coated filters correctly, you might end up with a piece of glass that's far worse off than any cheaper, single-coated filter
...
They're enough trouble that I just get the regular B+W UV
...
As much as I have difficulty cleaning Hoyas, B+Ws are easy to clean and stay that way with no spots or gunk still clinging to the glass (most likely the result of my B+W's being single-coated versus Hoya's multi-coated HMC and SMC filters).
VelocityReviews (testing a polarizer)