Posted by Wayne Rhodus on December 11, 2007 at 3:36 PM
Just received an "order" for two of my prints to decorate a couple's new home in London. It specifically identified two prints by name but because the English language was poorly worded it caused me some immediate hesitation. They were ready to send me a Cashiers Check right away, strange they forgot to select a print size & mat color.
A quick search turned up a Scam Alert for the very person making the request, Jana Ross of Alabama. (http://www.onlineverif.com)
Checked the archives here and it seems Darwin Wiggett posted a very similar warning in February at the link here: http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/bbs.cgi?a=vm&mr=15607&b=se&st=0&la=13&ph=5&sid=22729&u=22729
We get the same thing from time to time wanting to arrange weddings. When we suspect it's a fraud, we ask them to call our "agent" to discuss scheduling, then call us back. I alternately give them the number for the police department or the state troopers. For some reason we've never had a call-back.
Posted by Ed Cordes on December 11, 2007 at 8:49 PM
It's a dangerous world out there. Unfortunately many honest people are penalized by the few bad ones. I am glad you checked this deal out. I also hope you get a legit deal soon.
Posted by Frank Winters on December 12, 2007 at 8:14 AM
What is the scam, Wayne? Do they expect you to send prints before you receive $$$? Why would you do that. Or is the purpose of the scam to get personal information from you? What am I missing?
Thx,
Frank
Posted by Wayne Rhodus on December 12, 2007 at 8:23 AM
Frank, the way I understand it works is they send you a cashiers check for an amount well above the retail price of the artwork, double or more. Then when the artist notifies them of the overpayment they request that you send a check for the difference along with the artwork. If you comply, the artist is out the artwork and his/her own money.
Bottom line, don't ever ship any images before the money is safely nestled in your bank account.
Posted by Kirk Greene on December 12, 2007 at 8:53 AM
I work at a bank and, unfortunately, this type of fraud is becoming very common and something we all need to be aware of. The same scam as described above by Wayne is being done through many different avenues with lottery winnings being one of the more popular. The thief sends you a letter stating you have won a lottery with your first check included. The letter instructs you to deposit the check then send them a money gram or cashiers check for your administration fees. You do so and shortly after the fraudulent lottery check is returned to your account leaving you out the money you sent to them. Too many people have fallen victim to this type of fraud so just keep your radar up.
We always have to filter pretty carefully before turning away distant clients entirely. Our "local" ones are quite mobile (military) and end up all over the country. Especially for weddings, we do get inquiries from people we don't know in far-away towns and states. They're either from parents of a bride we don't know, and more frequently due to blended families with several last names involved.
Our solution has been to include a provision that we prefer prepayments by credit card, and that any checks rendered will have to clear the banking system before any services are provided.
I can't say how universal a solution that may be, but if you haven't set yourself up for accepting credit cards, that's one door closed to you.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on December 12, 2007 at 2:17 PM
Frank, the really quick summary is that the prints are irrelevant. They print a bogus check and have you send a real check for the refund in overpayment. Since it is an oversees address, any attempt to recover the money is, for practical purposes, impossible. It is a very, very common scam.
The poor grammer, a cashier's check, overpayment, lack of print size information and an overseas address, all taken together, read "SCAM".
Posted by Jason C. Doss on December 12, 2007 at 3:32 PM
Wouldn't you have found out the cashier's check is bad before sending reimbursement for the overage? I guess I still don't get it.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on December 12, 2007 at 3:48 PM
Do you have confidence that if your bank tells to the check has cleared, that it is still a legitimate check, even on from overseas check from a financial institution that sounds right? From having dealt with banks far more than I care to remember, I don't.
Posted by Jim DeWitt on December 12, 2007 at 5:52 PM
I represent a few banks and they are seeing shocking amounts of this scam. To answer some questions:
(1) The "cashier's check" is usually forged, altered or on counterfeit stock. The checks can be amazing accurate. Extremely sophisticated forgery experts have been taken in.
(2) It can take weeks or months for the check to rattle around in the collection process. The monies shown in your account are under a "provisional credit" which can be revoked by your bank at a much later date. It's very difficult for the customer to find out when a "provisional credit" becomes "final."
(3) Even if the time for reversing a "provisional credit" has passed, when you deposited the bogus check you promised it was good, and if it later turns out to be uncollectible in some way, you are liable for breach of your warranty.
On a related subject, watch out for sharing your business computer with your kids (or using it for recreation yourself). You can pick up malware that tracks your keystrokes, including your passwords, and ships them off to a thief. If you have set up electronic funds transfer with your bank, your account can be bled dry before you know it. Install and maintain anti-malware software on your computers.
It is indeed a very scary world out there. Be very cautious.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on December 12, 2007 at 10:31 PM
Thanks Jim. This is a far clearer summary than I could write.
Posted by Kent Staubus on December 13, 2007 at 11:25 AM
The poor grammer, a cashier's check, overpayment, lack of print size information and an overseas address, all taken together, read "SCAM".
My tip off that something is a scam is it came in an email!
Kent in SD
Posted by Jason C. Doss on December 13, 2007 at 11:26 AM
In a shocking twist of fate, my supervisor walked in my office just a while ago bearing a check and a letter saying she'd won a lottery. The letter read that she was to deposit the check, and send back a sum of money in order to 'activate her winnings' or words to that effect. Obviously, she was not about to comply, but the timing of this post and that occurence was fairly amazing. Thanks for the info... and indeed this type of fraud can happen to anyone.
Posted by Dan Borzynski on December 13, 2007 at 1:01 PM
In another amusing coincidence...
I am currently unemployed and have a resume and info up on Monster.com. This morning, I got an e-mail stating that because of my excellent job history, I was being offered a postion with a new company. They needed someone to cash checks. I would take their checks, cash them and send them 65% (or some other number like that). Needless to say, it was immediately deleted.
Regarding cashiers checks, they do not have to be forged for it to be bad. A cashiers check can be written on a valid account, but there is no guarantee that the funds will be available when the check is posted back to that account.
The safest type of check is a money order. But, they can be forged. If it is a legitimate money order, then there were sufficient funds to purchase it. I guess the validity of a money order could be checked with the issuing company. But, I am not certain how they keep records and how quickly they could determine if it was good.
Just remember, a cashiers check really does not provide anymore of a guarantee that a regular check.
Posted by Bill Pelzmann on December 13, 2007 at 5:53 PM
David, what is the purpose of a cashier's check if it does not provide anymore of a guarantee than a regular check?
Not disputing your statement. I'm naive and just wondering why they are sold?
Posted by Dan Borzynski on December 13, 2007 at 6:11 PM
The absence of a checking account and some sellers simply won't take personal checks.
Also, at least in the US and in terms of this fraudulant check thread, personal checks look fairly similar to each other while the average small merchant (read: us) probably has not seen a lot of cashier's checks. I certainly wouldn't have any feel if a cashier's check sent to me was real. I've handled maybe 3 in my entire life, all of which I have purchased in different cities from different banks and just don't know what they look like. A wierd looking personal check I'd balk at, even if it was legit.
Posted by Jim DeWitt on December 13, 2007 at 8:25 PM
Lawyers generally use precise terms:
"Cashier's check" is a check drawn by a bank on itself. That is, the person signing the check is a bank and the funds are located in that same bank. It is supposed to be the closest thing to cash you can have, using paper not printed by the U.S. Mint.
Unhappily, cashier's checks can be forged by any clown with a color laser printer and access to watermark paper. To make it worse, when banks fail (and they do) their cashier's check stock can get into the wrong hands, leading to authentic check stock issued by forgers. And most cashier's checks are pathetically easy to alter.
Small merchants like ourselves cannot afford to refuse cashier's checks, but we can refuse to accept a check that requires us to give money back, or a transaction that smells funny. And you can always call the purported bank on which the check is drawn and verify its validity. Just make sure you are calling the real bank and not the telephone number the thief put on the check.
You don't want a personal check unless you know the person signing it.
All this is a long ways from the subject of photography, and if this is out of line I hope someone will let me know...
Thanks for the information you have provided to us. While the topic has diverged somewhat from photography, we are all interested in protecting ourselves from the rampant greed of scammers. Also, since many of us sell prints, or other photography related services via the Web, the insights you have given us are timely.
Thanks again to you and the others who contributed advice to help us stay safe!
Discussion
21 repliesA quick search turned up a Scam Alert for the very person making the request, Jana Ross of Alabama. (http://www.onlineverif.com)
Checked the archives here and it seems Darwin Wiggett posted a very similar warning in February at the link here: http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/bbs.cgi?a=vm&mr=15607&b=se&st=0&la=13&ph=5&sid=22729&u=22729
Be careful out there!
-PB
Thx,
Frank
Bottom line, don't ever ship any images before the money is safely nestled in your bank account.
Our solution has been to include a provision that we prefer prepayments by credit card, and that any checks rendered will have to clear the banking system before any services are provided.
I can't say how universal a solution that may be, but if you haven't set yourself up for accepting credit cards, that's one door closed to you.
The poor grammer, a cashier's check, overpayment, lack of print size information and an overseas address, all taken together, read "SCAM".
(1) The "cashier's check" is usually forged, altered or on counterfeit stock. The checks can be amazing accurate. Extremely sophisticated forgery experts have been taken in.
(2) It can take weeks or months for the check to rattle around in the collection process. The monies shown in your account are under a "provisional credit" which can be revoked by your bank at a much later date. It's very difficult for the customer to find out when a "provisional credit" becomes "final."
(3) Even if the time for reversing a "provisional credit" has passed, when you deposited the bogus check you promised it was good, and if it later turns out to be uncollectible in some way, you are liable for breach of your warranty.
On a related subject, watch out for sharing your business computer with your kids (or using it for recreation yourself). You can pick up malware that tracks your keystrokes, including your passwords, and ships them off to a thief. If you have set up electronic funds transfer with your bank, your account can be bled dry before you know it. Install and maintain anti-malware software on your computers.
It is indeed a very scary world out there. Be very cautious.
My tip off that something is a scam is it came in an email!
Kent in SD
I am currently unemployed and have a resume and info up on Monster.com. This morning, I got an e-mail stating that because of my excellent job history, I was being offered a postion with a new company. They needed someone to cash checks. I would take their checks, cash them and send them 65% (or some other number like that). Needless to say, it was immediately deleted.
The safest type of check is a money order. But, they can be forged. If it is a legitimate money order, then there were sufficient funds to purchase it. I guess the validity of a money order could be checked with the issuing company. But, I am not certain how they keep records and how quickly they could determine if it was good.
Just remember, a cashiers check really does not provide anymore of a guarantee that a regular check.
Not disputing your statement. I'm naive and just wondering why they are sold?
Also, at least in the US and in terms of this fraudulant check thread, personal checks look fairly similar to each other while the average small merchant (read: us) probably has not seen a lot of cashier's checks. I certainly wouldn't have any feel if a cashier's check sent to me was real. I've handled maybe 3 in my entire life, all of which I have purchased in different cities from different banks and just don't know what they look like. A wierd looking personal check I'd balk at, even if it was legit.
"Cashier's check" is a check drawn by a bank on itself. That is, the person signing the check is a bank and the funds are located in that same bank. It is supposed to be the closest thing to cash you can have, using paper not printed by the U.S. Mint.
Unhappily, cashier's checks can be forged by any clown with a color laser printer and access to watermark paper. To make it worse, when banks fail (and they do) their cashier's check stock can get into the wrong hands, leading to authentic check stock issued by forgers. And most cashier's checks are pathetically easy to alter.
Small merchants like ourselves cannot afford to refuse cashier's checks, but we can refuse to accept a check that requires us to give money back, or a transaction that smells funny. And you can always call the purported bank on which the check is drawn and verify its validity. Just make sure you are calling the real bank and not the telephone number the thief put on the check.
You don't want a personal check unless you know the person signing it.
All this is a long ways from the subject of photography, and if this is out of line I hope someone will let me know...
Thanks for the information you have provided to us. While the topic has diverged somewhat from photography, we are all interested in protecting ourselves from the rampant greed of scammers. Also, since many of us sell prints, or other photography related services via the Web, the insights you have given us are timely.
Thanks again to you and the others who contributed advice to help us stay safe!
-PB