I was looking at images in the #313 WC topic and several had rime ice.
weather.com - Glossary
RIME: The rapid freezing of supercooled water droplets as they touch an exposed object, forming a white opaque granular deposit of ice.
As I looked at the images, it looks like if the weather is cold enough that the 'water' is frozen in what ever motion it is moving as seen very strongly in WC #313 Summit Ice where the ice is literally wrapped around the pole and extending out.
Am I understanding this right! That is amazing. What special care do you have to take of your cameras in such cold, much less your hands etc in trying to take images in such cold? I admire these photos and the effort it must take to capture them.
I am not planning a trip... as I can't handle anything lower than 50 degrees
You've pretty well got it. It comes in so many forms and places. The weirdest I ever encountered was driving on the freeway near Boise Idaho in "ice fog." The temp was just right so that the cooling of the truck metal caused the ice to form heavily all surfaces, even though there was virtually no ice on the ground when I stopped. In a related event, enough formed on the radio antenna that it formed big, long "icicles" downwind. Kinda pretty but then the whole works started to vibrate and the antenna broke off completely before I could stop and clear it.
On the home front here in Kodiak, we get it often on the tide flats on cold winter days (as is happening right now, as a matter of fact! 7 degrees and 15 knots of wind. Brrrrr. ). The tide falls and in the wake of the "warm" saltwater, the ground chills. Any remaining water freezes, then as the tide comes back in more freezes. Right at the leading edge of the incoming water, the water freezes quickly and the water behind it lifts and floats it as it moves on by to form more ice further up the tide flats, if you can follow that.
However it's explained you end up with these huge sheets of ice floating on the tide flats. When the tide drops again, they fall back down into place and are made thicker by the next tide, kind of like building up layers of wax in candle making. You end up with these huge sheets of ice that are flexible so they bend and twist over objects the next time the tide goes out. It's really dangerous to walk out there because the flexible sheets harden almost instantly and they are slicker than slick. Each step you either slide or break through, and it's hard to tell whether you're going to land on solid ground beneath or a deep, ankle-breaking hole. I use ice cleats on my boots and probe hard with a heavy, sharp version of a "trekking pole" before taking a step.
Posted by David Bostedo on January 10, 2008 at 1:09 PM
Barbara - It's not so much that the water is frozen in motion. It's that the prevailing wind only allows droplets to freeze in a certain pattern. Other droplets that might freeze onto that form (in "Summit Ice") would get blown away, so that the form is really wind sculpted. So that type of form builds up over some time.
I don't think I've ever photographed in anything as cold as in some of those pics (which are great!!). But in snow, I'm usually bundled up in the same stuff I wear skiing, and keep my equipment under my clothes as much as possible - especially batteries, since they really die quickly in the cold. Warming them up can bring them back, though. I'm sure a lot of the more "hardcore" photogs around here can tell you all about snowshoeing, sub zero temps, etc...
Posted by Jim Salge on January 10, 2008 at 2:24 PM
Rime ice develops by liquid cloud droplets hitting a subfreezing surface. If first bears asking...why aren't the cloud droplets frozen if the air is below freezing...Water needs two things to freeze...either something to freeze upon or around (called an ice nucleus) or air that is at or approaching -40 to nucleate. A pure drop of water will NOT freeze until -40 without help.
Rime ice builds up when these supercooled droplets hit a below freezing surface. The more droplets that hit, the greater the rate of buildup...which is one reason why vertical structures tend to develop more rime ice into the wind. Long feathers of strong yet brittle ice can reach incredible lengths in very strong winds.
Rime ice is next to impossible to deal with on cameras in any kind of wind. If you point the lens into the wind, it will get an immediate coating. Point the camera downwind. That's all you can do.
As a last point, ice fog is different than freezing fog. Ice fog is when the fog particles are already frozen in the air, and therefore cannot/do not form rime!
Hank, those sheets of ice sounds freaky, but I can understand that as our coastal water can be so nice and warm (thanks to the Gulf Stream) compared to the air. If the temps are extreme, as in your example, I can see how the thin sheet of ice would form, when the warmer water recedes and the air hits what is left.
Dave... you would really laugh if you saw me in 40 degree weather. You northern photographers are welcome to all the snow, ice and freezing temps you find. I will just enjoy your hard work in getting such great photos.
Jim, I really enjoyed both of those images. Thanks for sharing.
Good point on the freezing fog rather than ice fog Jim. We get true ice fog in the Arctic, and that can be really wild, especially at night. Point sources of light appear with a long spire of light extending up from them in the fog. Hard to describe, but it's really different from anything you see in conventional fog.
"Rime" is the local name for the sheets I'm referring to on the tide flats too. Lots of this stuff has its own local name. Kind of like in the world of fish: What's the difference between a silver salmon and a coho salmon? About 100 miles.
Posted by Toni Lankerd on January 10, 2008 at 4:22 PM
Barbara, if we have freezing fog (not ice fog) in Michigan, it usually tends to end up as "black ice" on the roadways. You can't really see that the roads are icy, but try stopping normally and you'll quickly find out that the roads are indeed very slick.
As for shooting in cold weather...I've frequently gone out in 10-20° F with wind chills down to 0-10° and have not had any problems with my camera or battery...just very cold fingers even with the right kind of gloves on! I usually don't stay out more than an hour at a time without a warmup...maybe that makes a difference regarding the camera. *Note to self...get some hand warmers!!
Get the little disposable catalytic ones. They're usually not much over a buck a pair and the last 8 hours or more. Slip one into the palm of each hand inside your gloves. I doubt they're environmentally friendly, but I DON'T CARE. They work well and they're cheap. I keep spares in all jacket pockets, camera bags, glove compartments and most flat surfaces in the house within reach of the door this time of year. Wouldn't be without them!
Posted by Toni Lankerd on January 10, 2008 at 8:50 PM
Thanks very much for the tip, Hank...I'll be sure to look for them when I go to the store tomorrow!!
Posted by Kent Staubus on January 10, 2008 at 9:29 PM
Walmart is the best source for the chemical handwarmers. They actually are quite "environomentally" friendly. They produce an exothermic reaction using salt and water. I don't use them for me-I have clothing that's good to the minus forties. I do sometimes fasten one around the battery compartment on my camera when it starts getting colder than 10 or 20 below zero. If I have a long wait to take a photo, I keep the camera on the tripod but simply take the battery out and keep it in my pocket until I hear the train coming or whatever.
I love this time of year with the ice fog! It can hang on for days and slowly builds up thicker and thicker. The best happens when it's been below zero for a week or two, then warms up into the low to mid +20s. During the day some of the snow sublimates into water vapor. At night the temp drops where it can't support the moisture percentage anymore and it turns to frozen fog that coats everything. My favorite months of the year are January & February because of the ice fog.
Now for something different. About ten years ago I was hiking in the Black Hills in the western part of my state, taking photos of frozen waterfalls. It was about 38 below zero. I saw a rapidly flowing creek that was all open water! I didn't think anything of it and started walking across it like I do any other time of the year. Next thing I knew I was flat on my back in the ice cold water! I've crossed the stream in the same place many times before but never had any trouble at all! I ran back to my truck, my clothes frozen stiff as wood, and learned about "anchor ice" when I got home. It's an interesting phenomena that a guy from Kansas had not heard of before.
You forgot to tell Toni about the socks with the toe warmers!
I bought the replaceable chemical pack style rather than the battery type as I had doubts about the wiring holding up with washing.
A bit curious as to people thoughts between rime ice and hoar frost. When we have ice fogs here at -40 and colder, objects such as trees and particularly things made of metal get coated in frost which can built up into thick layers over time. Look like freezer burn on steroids. In Northern Canada this is known as hoar frost.
I've always understood rime ice to be caused by water giving a glaze where hoar frost is caused by an object attracting frozen vapour.
Posted by Steve Foss on January 11, 2008 at 4:07 AM
Good thread.
My clothing is good to -80. It's the expedition gear Will Steger et all used for their 1986 polar dogsled journey (improved and redesigned) but I STILL use the dry chemical handwarmers. No one makes gloves that can keep a photographer's hands warm at -30 and 20 mph winds, so I use the light fabric gloves inside flipover wool mittens with a handwarmer in each mitten. Of, if it's really nasty, I use moosehide expedition choppers with Arctic fleece linings and drop the right-hand one into the snow (leaving my right hand with only a light synthetic glove) to shoot, and then quickly pick up the chopper and put it back on when I'm done shooting.
I've been OK to -30 so far shooting with this gear. When not shooting, I've been warm at -110 wind chill with the same gear.
Very informative thread! Thanks for posting the question, Barbara.
Hey, Steve, what are "expedition choppers?"
And what does everyone do to keep their faces (esp. noses and eyes) safe from exposure to such cold? That's my biggest problem, and I don't encounter any temps as low as reported here.
Posted by Jim Salge on January 11, 2008 at 6:25 AM
Correct about hoar frost...it is a process of direct deposition from vapor to solid. Rime is liquid to solid freezing.
As for protecting your face, at my old job in the alpine zone, we had a strict 'no skin exposed' rule when windchills reached below -30F. Hat (or two), face mask, balaclava, goggles and a neck gaiter.
As you see they can be adapted to be worn in a number of ways for protection depending on the temperature. They are not really suitable for extremely cold temperatures by themselves, but are great in conjunction with a parka hood which can be thrown off when shooting.
Their only drawback is when you have the bottom covering the mouth it can force warm breather up on to a viewfinder or LCD causing it to mist or ice over,
Posted by Jim Salge on January 11, 2008 at 1:53 PM
Barbara, you poor dear. You've been cheated of such a wonderful experience Winter is the most amazing time of year! I love it and all that goes with it - especially hoar frost. We get a lot of that around the rivers where the fast water does not freeze but the vapor condenses and freezes on trees and bushes. If you catch it backlight on a sunny morning you'd think you were in Heaven! It's too beautiful! Makes great macro's too.
We Canadians don't get the brutal winters that we used to but I'm an old fart so I'm well toughened up. Snowshoeing in a pristine forest during or after a snowfall is what I live for. It doesn't occur to a lot of people to take their camera out in "bad" weather but you can get some very unique and moody photos in a heavy snowstorm. Great in the city at night too!
Oh well, I guess you'll just have to put up with your lot in life and I do sympatize with you for the sheltered existance you must lead ... poor dear
"Oh well, I guess you'll just have to put up with your lot in life...." ________________________________________________________________
I will do my best. Keep taking those great photos though so I can be totally aware of what I am missing
Barb
Posted by Jim DeWitt on January 11, 2008 at 6:12 PM
I can claim some bona fide expertise in coping with cold weather, dealing with the weird effects of extremely cold air on water vapor, and keeping warm. I've lived in Fairbanks, Alaska more than 45 years.
Keeping gear operational is a real problem. Apart from keeping batteries warm, in extreme temperatures (say, -40 or colder) you get differential contraction of materials. Glass and metal, different alloys and plastics all contract at different rates. A lens will simply quit working. You can try keeping it warm inside your coat, but then you get condensation on the optics when you tuck your cold camera inside your warm, moist parka. You can prolong the inevitable by using the chemical handwarmers Hank described. Be careful about batteries, though; a side effect of extreme cold is extremely dry air, leading to serious static electricity problems. Resist the temptation to ground yourself touching metal...
Keeping warm: everything Steve said about Will Steger is true; in particular, Steger Mukluks are God's gift to cold feet. Also good is Apocalypse Design here in Fairbanks. I've had them make lens covers that have slip-in mesh pockets for handwarmers. To keep your hands warm, wear light fleece gloves inside of bulky mittens. If necessary, you can have handwarmers in the mittens, too. To protect your face, I recommend neck gaiters from Turtle Fur (a very smooth fleece). You can still get snotsicles, but it takes a long time outdoors.
Weird weather effects: at -45 or colder, if you throw a glass of hot water high in the air, it will never come down; it will turn to water vapor first. That's true ice fog - particles of microscopic ice, suspended in the air - can reduce visibility to 20 feet. Open water and car exhaust generate dense ice fog. The ice crystals hang in a vertical orientation, so you might be able to see stars overhead but not 50 feet horizontally. Happily, there is never wind and ice fog.
Hey, thanks for the info, guys. Now as to the fleece boa-- It'd probably be entwined with my gear in no time and there I'd be-- all hog-tied and fit to be tied! Besides, they don't have "my" colors! Good tips, and I'll look into some of the other things mentioned.
Discussion
19 repliesAs I looked at the images, it looks like if the weather is cold enough that the 'water' is frozen in what ever motion it is moving as seen very strongly in WC #313 Summit Ice where the ice is literally wrapped around the pole and extending out.
Am I understanding this right! That is amazing. What special care do you have to take of your cameras in such cold, much less your hands etc in trying to take images in such cold? I admire these photos and the effort it must take to capture them.
I am not planning a trip... as I can't handle anything lower than 50 degrees
On the home front here in Kodiak, we get it often on the tide flats on cold winter days (as is happening right now, as a matter of fact! 7 degrees and 15 knots of wind. Brrrrr. ). The tide falls and in the wake of the "warm" saltwater, the ground chills. Any remaining water freezes, then as the tide comes back in more freezes. Right at the leading edge of the incoming water, the water freezes quickly and the water behind it lifts and floats it as it moves on by to form more ice further up the tide flats, if you can follow that.
However it's explained you end up with these huge sheets of ice floating on the tide flats. When the tide drops again, they fall back down into place and are made thicker by the next tide, kind of like building up layers of wax in candle making. You end up with these huge sheets of ice that are flexible so they bend and twist over objects the next time the tide goes out. It's really dangerous to walk out there because the flexible sheets harden almost instantly and they are slicker than slick. Each step you either slide or break through, and it's hard to tell whether you're going to land on solid ground beneath or a deep, ankle-breaking hole. I use ice cleats on my boots and probe hard with a heavy, sharp version of a "trekking pole" before taking a step.
I don't think I've ever photographed in anything as cold as in some of those pics (which are great!!). But in snow, I'm usually bundled up in the same stuff I wear skiing, and keep my equipment under my clothes as much as possible - especially batteries, since they really die quickly in the cold. Warming them up can bring them back, though. I'm sure a lot of the more "hardcore" photogs around here can tell you all about snowshoeing, sub zero temps, etc...
Rime ice builds up when these supercooled droplets hit a below freezing surface. The more droplets that hit, the greater the rate of buildup...which is one reason why vertical structures tend to develop more rime ice into the wind. Long feathers of strong yet brittle ice can reach incredible lengths in very strong winds.
Rime ice is next to impossible to deal with on cameras in any kind of wind. If you point the lens into the wind, it will get an immediate coating. Point the camera downwind. That's all you can do.
This is my favorite rime ice picture of all time, taken in 1979 on Mount Washington by Greg Gordon.
As a last point, ice fog is different than freezing fog. Ice fog is when the fog particles are already frozen in the air, and therefore cannot/do not form rime!
Dave... you would really laugh if you saw me in 40 degree weather. You northern photographers are welcome to all the snow, ice and freezing temps you find. I will just enjoy your hard work in getting such great photos.
Jim, I really enjoyed both of those images. Thanks for sharing.
"Rime" is the local name for the sheets I'm referring to on the tide flats too. Lots of this stuff has its own local name. Kind of like in the world of fish: What's the difference between a silver salmon and a coho salmon? About 100 miles.
As for shooting in cold weather...I've frequently gone out in 10-20° F with wind chills down to 0-10° and have not had any problems with my camera or battery...just very cold fingers even with the right kind of gloves on! I usually don't stay out more than an hour at a time without a warmup...maybe that makes a difference regarding the camera. *Note to self...get some hand warmers!!
Get the little disposable catalytic ones. They're usually not much over a buck a pair and the last 8 hours or more. Slip one into the palm of each hand inside your gloves. I doubt they're environmentally friendly, but I DON'T CARE. They work well and they're cheap. I keep spares in all jacket pockets, camera bags, glove compartments and most flat surfaces in the house within reach of the door this time of year. Wouldn't be without them!
I love this time of year with the ice fog! It can hang on for days and slowly builds up thicker and thicker. The best happens when it's been below zero for a week or two, then warms up into the low to mid +20s. During the day some of the snow sublimates into water vapor. At night the temp drops where it can't support the moisture percentage anymore and it turns to frozen fog that coats everything. My favorite months of the year are January & February because of the ice fog.
Now for something different. About ten years ago I was hiking in the Black Hills in the western part of my state, taking photos of frozen waterfalls. It was about 38 below zero. I saw a rapidly flowing creek that was all open water! I didn't think anything of it and started walking across it like I do any other time of the year. Next thing I knew I was flat on my back in the ice cold water! I've crossed the stream in the same place many times before but never had any trouble at all! I ran back to my truck, my clothes frozen stiff as wood, and learned about "anchor ice" when I got home. It's an interesting phenomena that a guy from Kansas had not heard of before.
Kent in SD
You forgot to tell Toni about the socks with the toe warmers!
I bought the replaceable chemical pack style rather than the battery type as I had doubts about the wiring holding up with washing.
A bit curious as to people thoughts between rime ice and hoar frost. When we have ice fogs here at -40 and colder, objects such as trees and particularly things made of metal get coated in frost which can built up into thick layers over time. Look like freezer burn on steroids. In Northern Canada this is known as hoar frost.
I've always understood rime ice to be caused by water giving a glaze where hoar frost is caused by an object attracting frozen vapour.
My clothing is good to -80. It's the expedition gear Will Steger et all used for their 1986 polar dogsled journey (improved and redesigned) but I STILL use the dry chemical handwarmers. No one makes gloves that can keep a photographer's hands warm at -30 and 20 mph winds, so I use the light fabric gloves inside flipover wool mittens with a handwarmer in each mitten. Of, if it's really nasty, I use moosehide expedition choppers with Arctic fleece linings and drop the right-hand one into the snow (leaving my right hand with only a light synthetic glove) to shoot, and then quickly pick up the chopper and put it back on when I'm done shooting.
I've been OK to -30 so far shooting with this gear. When not shooting, I've been warm at -110 wind chill with the same gear.
Ahhh, blessed warmth when you REALLY need it!
Hey, Steve, what are "expedition choppers?"
And what does everyone do to keep their faces (esp. noses and eyes) safe from exposure to such cold? That's my biggest problem, and I don't encounter any temps as low as reported here.
As for protecting your face, at my old job in the alpine zone, we had a strict 'no skin exposed' rule when windchills reached below -30F. Hat (or two), face mask, balaclava, goggles and a neck gaiter.
One research team brought along a thermal imagery camera for one set of experiments, and came away with this image of the protective values of a balaclava...I think it's neat!
Here I use this type of fleece hood. http://www.cartom.virtual-space.com/polar.htm
As you see they can be adapted to be worn in a number of ways for protection depending on the temperature. They are not really suitable for extremely cold temperatures by themselves, but are great in conjunction with a parka hood which can be thrown off when shooting.
Their only drawback is when you have the bottom covering the mouth it can force warm breather up on to a viewfinder or LCD causing it to mist or ice over,
This little number is sharp as well!
We Canadians don't get the brutal winters that we used to but I'm an old fart so I'm well toughened up. Snowshoeing in a pristine forest during or after a snowfall is what I live for. It doesn't occur to a lot of people to take their camera out in "bad" weather but you can get some very unique and moody photos in a heavy snowstorm. Great in the city at night too!
Oh well, I guess you'll just have to put up with your lot in life and I do sympatize with you for the sheltered existance you must lead ... poor dear
Bob
I will do my best. Keep taking those great photos though so I can be totally aware of what I am missing
Barb
Keeping gear operational is a real problem. Apart from keeping batteries warm, in extreme temperatures (say, -40 or colder) you get differential contraction of materials. Glass and metal, different alloys and plastics all contract at different rates. A lens will simply quit working. You can try keeping it warm inside your coat, but then you get condensation on the optics when you tuck your cold camera inside your warm, moist parka. You can prolong the inevitable by using the chemical handwarmers Hank described. Be careful about batteries, though; a side effect of extreme cold is extremely dry air, leading to serious static electricity problems. Resist the temptation to ground yourself touching metal...
Keeping warm: everything Steve said about Will Steger is true; in particular, Steger Mukluks are God's gift to cold feet. Also good is Apocalypse Design here in Fairbanks. I've had them make lens covers that have slip-in mesh pockets for handwarmers. To keep your hands warm, wear light fleece gloves inside of bulky mittens. If necessary, you can have handwarmers in the mittens, too. To protect your face, I recommend neck gaiters from Turtle Fur (a very smooth fleece). You can still get snotsicles, but it takes a long time outdoors.
Weird weather effects: at -45 or colder, if you throw a glass of hot water high in the air, it will never come down; it will turn to water vapor first. That's true ice fog - particles of microscopic ice, suspended in the air - can reduce visibility to 20 feet. Open water and car exhaust generate dense ice fog. The ice crystals hang in a vertical orientation, so you might be able to see stars overhead but not 50 feet horizontally. Happily, there is never wind and ice fog.