Allow me this rant: M&N Gallery

I admittedly don't visit Man & Nature often, but i just stopped in and was shocked to see 4 shots with 400+ views and not one single comment. Now, i am fully aware that non-members view these shots, but if you compare the views with other galleries and shots that received multiple comments, it's pretty obvious that many members are viewing these shots and not leaving comments, in some cases i suspect because many people do not like saying anything that can be interpreted as critical. All i can say is, Get over it! I can't speak for others, but personally i'd rather hear constructive criticism than be ignored.
If I had a dollar for every person who had an opinion but was too lazy or shy to post it....

Stan, I tend to agree with what you are saying. It seems that there is an awful lot of lookers only, and as such we don't often receive the feedback for growth that so many of us seem to want. I mostly post in Flora, and we have a higher degree of input for each other than the other forums. I would personally suggest that to receive comments we each must also post comments. Someone on this great forum suggested that a 1 post/5 comment ratio would be appropriate, but any comment/post ratio of 1-1 or greater would certaily be acceptable in my opinion. It's cold and snowy in much of the country and I personally get a great amount of enjoyment at looking at all the beautiful images while stuck indoors in a frigid location. Come on folks, post your comments (good and bad) so we can see even better images as we all grow. Thanks for bringing this up Stan.

Hi Stan,

I am relatively new to the NPN and just finding my way around this huge site (I spend a lot of time on the UKNP, but I'm branching out so to speak). Before I started posting I read the NPN posting guidelines which suggested that if you make1 Post then reply to 5. I think this is a great idea as I wouldn't like to post something and have no replies.

Good rant, Stan, and thanks for posting. Forums like this do not work if people don't post replies and comments.

I agree. And I would also like to encourage members who don't comment to do so. Bradley, I saw that in one of your recent comments you gently encouraged someone to comment when they haven't at all in the past even though they had a significant number of posts. Personally, I commend you for doing so though I know there are other views on the subject.

Folks, I'm going to add my two-cents to this discussion too. I know it comes up from time to time; I know it's a ROYAL P-I-T-A to take the time to add comments; however ...

We're all here to grow and learn and improve our skills.
It's far easier to be objective and see both the pluses and minuses in an image created by another than in your own work.
I know what it's like to submit an image and have no one single person comment on it. It may not have been the greatest image in the world but comments telling me what is good and bad about the image would have helped my development and growth--a lot.

Initially when I joined NPN, I posted an image and would go and make comments on one image in each of the galleries; then somewhere along the way, I changed that technique. Now when I post an image in a given galley, I leave C&C on the next five images. I don't always know what to say, but I think we can all learn to write what we like and/or dislike in any given image. Worse case, we can ask a question. When I've made those comments, then I can go and locate images created by folks I've gotten to know over the past year.

I'm sure I've inadvertently tramped on a toe or two but it sure wasn't intentional.

One last word before I get off my soapbox. When we actually write down a few words about an image, it helps crystallize the ideas in our own minds. And, as we shoot, we will discover that these ideas come to mind as we are composing--purpose, composition, DOF, a unique perspective on an icon, colors, emotions, and the list goes on and on and on.

Hey Stan, I want to share in the loot you are going to collect. I'm glad you brought tthe issue to the fore.

Carol

I go over every post three times a week and go back and try to make sure they all get at least one meaningful response. My fear is people will get tired of hearing from me though! I agree that the best cure is for those who post photos to try and put out a lot more comments than their own photos. This is what makes a forum useful. I can tell you all this little secret: often when it's time to make the weekly pick there are two photos that are both so great they are essentially equally as good. The tie breaker is then the photo-to comment ratio. I don't look at just the raw number of comments because that would favor the people who've been around longer. I favor those with a significantly higher ratio because that gives even the newest people a chance.

Anyway, that is one of my pet peeves too. I think it's a simple courtesy to not allow anyone to go with NO comments at all. Don't be afraid of posting what they might do better--that's actually the purpose of the forums.


Kent in SD

Over the past year or so Flora has become one of the strongest forums on the board because so many of the participants care enough to comment as well as post. With more comments comes more posts and with more post comes greater quality as well. Its a snowball effect that takes time and effort but the ultimate beneficiaries are the photographers themselves who are stimulated to improve their own work. I found also in my personal development that when I started looking at images and commenting on them that I would examine them more critically. That translated into a lot more critical eye when its me looking through the viewfinder and I can trace my improvement as a photographer to my participation on NPN. I'm also one who takes into account forum participation when making my EP choice. Heavy contributors certainly get heavy consideration.>=))>

Because I tend to post more images in the Flora forum, that is where I make the most comments. However, I also check out the other galleries and leave comments when I have the chance. I am more likely to try and comment on the images in the other forums that have few or no comments, rather than those who have already received numerous raves, even though I enjoy looking at all of them. The reasoning behind that is that those are the very members who (more than likely) need encouragement.

Stan, thanks for bringing this subject up!

All good comments on this subject that Stan has posted. Kent has mentioned a valid point in a lot of cases, photo-to-comment ratio. It matters not what category folks post or comment in, IMO. However, the P-T-C ratio will in many cases tell the story.

I just don't comment on images when I see a very one sided ratio of posts/comments. There are a handful of photographers in the Avian forum(my most frequented forum) that post amazing images.... but I won't even open them anymore because of their lack of commenting. A couple of these guys skills are downright unbelievable so they would have a lot to add in critiquing others. To me, they either showing off or trying to sell their workshops.... I find either reason a little bit annoying. That is what a personal photography website is for, not a critique site.

Man do I feel better!!!!

While I do agree than the extreme cases of over two hundred views of a photo with no comments are downright tragic, I would like to offer a different perspective on the issue. I submit that there is a significant difference between the purpose and “personality” of each individual forum. In a few forums, the culture of faithful commenting has been developed in tandem with the consistent posting of exceptional photographs. I mean no disrespect to the members who post to Man and Nature regularly, but it is not one of those forums.

The goal for 95% of photos posted to the Earth Sea and Sky gallery, is to share an inspirational/moving and artful interpretation of the natural world. The clear and common goal makes it easy for peers to critique each other’s work. On the other hand, I often view photos in M&N the purpose of which I am uncertain. Is it an attempt to share a personal vision of the photographed subject, or is it simply meant to share a record of the subject? If the latter is the case, then my suggestions to seek out a more suitable light, consider traditional compositional rules, and toy with post-processing techniques are completely pointless.

Additionally, most of NPN’s members are “landscape and nature” photographers, and at least for me, that means I shy away from most scenes that include the “hand of man.” A couple have already admitted that their visits to M&N are infrequent, and I would say that less than one tenth of my image posts in the galleries have been to that section. It’s a gallery that, for many of us, is an afterthought, not our primary passion. As such, it’s inspired and though/comment provoking photographs are fewer and further between.

I agree that something should change, but I don’t think it begins with our efforts to correct images that weren’t originally posted with the goal of being the best photograph possible. Instead, I think it would be a worthwhile endeavor (for individuals and the group) to make a conscious effort to produce and share more photos that are both noteworthy and fit the M&N theme.

Kent, that's a valid point, which is why i waited for an "extreme case" for my rant. Some photos are definitely hard to verbalize thoughts about--but hey, even that fact can be worthy of a comment!

This has to be the most cordial group on the internet--if i had posted any 'rant' on any other forum site, i gaurantee you at least a couple guys would have jumped on me and questioned my manhood or called me a moron. I can live with a little less C&C if that helps 'keep the peace'.

Just to throw another log on the fire here's a point to ponder. I realise that NPN is a posting and critiquing forum and not a stock outlet but of all the galleries, M&N is the one where a greater percentage of shots would have commercial legs. I know there's money to be made from images that are strickly ES&S but M&N shots have wider uses and a greater range of buyers. I enjoy looking through M&N and seeing shots that are not just pretty landscapes but have me thinking "o man that one would sell big time". That's what I get out of the gallery. Beautiful landscapes are wonderful and awesome to look at but stick the hand of man in there and it's $ time. I enjoy looking through M&N to see the work of photographers whose skills intentionally or unintentionally have commercial potential (see the latest post there titled Glacial City by Daniel Dvorsky for a super example of what I am talking about). Your point Stan is a valid one and it's frustrating when I post in M&N and the only comment is from Kent or Michelle who do a fabulous job of making sure every post gets at least a comment. I post looking for honest feedback so 20 comments of I think your image sucks for the following reasons would please me more than 100 views and 0 comments. I guess right now it is what it is and like most things in life we can't change other people but we can change ourselves. Let's set an example and comment more and others may follow.

Folks, I'm going to add my two-cents to this discussion too. I know it comes up from time to time; I know it's a ROYAL P-I-T-A to take the time to add comments; however ...

Carol, no hard feelings, but I strongly disagree. IMO, it's no PITA at all to add comments. I feel that I've learned as much from commenting as I have from reveiving comments. Not only in terms of technique, composition or subject choice, but also in terms of assessing the potential of my own images. When I see what kind of image it takes to make me think "ugh...", "average", "good", or "wow", I can transfer this to my own images, try to strip all the nice feelings and experiences I had on the trip on which I made the shot (or whatever), and then make an educated guess on whether it's worth keeping (posting) or not.

Basil

Instead, I think it would be a worthwhile endeavor (for individuals and the group) to make a conscious effort to produce and share more photos that are both noteworthy and fit the M&N theme.

I think this is a very valid point. M&N shouldn't be used as "waste dump" (I don't mean that in a disrespectful way - but I think that most clearly expresses the idea ) for images that accidentally cointain some man-made object (I must confess that I'm guilty of doing so), but where man/man-made objects improve, and add to, the image (thinking, for example, of Guy Tal's recent post with that person standing under a rock arch as an excellent example).

Basil

I've noticed that some people here seem to bookmark their favorite forum, I don't, I have the "All Photos" section bookmarked so I go there first and treat myself to viewing all of the galleries.

It doesn't hurt to step out side our box once in awhile and see that in photography, we are all kindred spirits, regardless of what we take photos of.

I'd still be using a P&S camera and making so-so images had it not been for the encouragement & guidance of other photographers. Some of whom I have never met face to face.

And I agree Stan, this is one of the most cordial groups on the Internet, I am glad I found it.

I'm glad someone brought up the "All Photos" browsing. I view tons of images I don't comment on, simply because I just start at the beginning and use "Next photo" to look at all the galleries.

Basil - I think the PITA comment's intention was that it would be a PITA to comment as much as everyone would like. Sometimes you just enjoy looking, and it seems a drag to try to comment on lots of images, regardless of how helpful it is (and I agree with you there).

Fred - I think the requirement to have people comment would be well intentioned, but ultimately would drive/scare more people away than it would help. (Of course, that pure speculation on my part - but as someone who comments quite a bit I think, I still wouldn't like to be forced to comment.) I actually think the amount of people that comment now is pretty good for the most part, and I'd hate to lose the options everyone has as far as what/when to post and comment. Making requirements makes it feel like that much more of a chore.