Posted by Lisa Wiesbauer on February 11, 2008 at 11:46 AM
I just wonder if the lack of comments on pics. is due to the fact that there are probably a lot of other people like myself that are very new to photography and just don't know enough yet to even offer an educated comment on possible improvements.
I myself have looked at just about every picture and have read almost every post since I started last Fall. You've been very helpful in answering equip. questions-thanks again!
I've been reading Nature Photography books and have recently signed up in a local club.
Last summer I couldn't have told you what an f/stop was, but now I find myself pouring over the pics., looking at composition and deciding what settings to play w/next.
My ultimate goal after joining the network (which I'll be doing soon) is to try to get a portfolio page of my own up and running.
Once I'm to that point, I might feel semi worthy enough to comment on some of the absoultely astounding photographs I've seen here-other than just saying it's a great picture.
Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking. Please let me know.
My only bit of advice is that some folks who post photos will respond to your questions, while others won't. You'll quickly learn which are more responsive and more worthy of your time in hitting the reply button. Doesn't mean you shouldn't look at them all and enjoy what you see, but as you comment more, don't let the lack of responsiveness of a few sour you from commenting. The dialogs that can develop are the best learning tool of all.
Posted by Guy Tal on February 11, 2008 at 12:27 PM
I respectfully disagree. We don't make images for other photographers, we make them to share with fellow humans.
Even if you're not comfortable commenting on the technical aspects of the image, anyone can offer an opinion on the aesthetic, artistic, or emotional appeal, whether they know the first thing about photography or not.
I actually prefer feedback from people like you, rather than the "old pros" and let me tell you why. Photographers tend to give fairly predictable feedback, usually based on the image's technical merits (or not).
Rarely are their comments based on how the image impacts them on an emotional level. Thats what I want to hear.
So when I ask for feedback from my photographer friends, I get suggestions on cropping, exposure, DOF, color casts, clone this out, etc. I am my own harshest critic when it comes to this stuff, so it really has much less value to me. Not that i don't appreciate it.
When I seek feedback from my non-photographer friends, those who happen to share the same interests and passions as mine, I get more information on how the image makes them feel, rather than then the technicals, because they don't know about the technicals. This is much more valuable to me.
So, your input is valuable - at least to me it is. Your opinion on how the image makes you feel has just as much merit as a 25-year photography veteran. I have editors tell me all the time that they would prefer a technically flawed image that strikes an emotional chord with the viewers over a technically perfect image that is emotionally sterile.
Keep learning...NPN is a tremendous resource. But don't be shy. Speak out.
I agree with Guy. If you expect to get comments, then you should be prepared to make them too. Even if it's just a beer mug toast and a jumpy smiley thing. It's a two way deal. One other point. I notice that a lot of times newer photographers and many more experienced photographers do not add in their EXIF and shooting data. It's hard to comment on improvements if it's not there. Also, I want to know what settings the more experienced folks are using to get some of these incredible shots. While it can be expecting a lot to ask someone to give you an in depth review of a particular shot, I think we can learn a lot by seeing what equipment and settings others use to reach Nirvana.
Posted by Eric Peterson on February 11, 2008 at 1:39 PM
I agree with Richard and Guy. The good thing about NPN is that you can have a very wide array of experience levels all looking at the same image. Pros tend to be technically minded while novices (who most photos are geared to anyways) seem to be more in tune with what they like and dislike about the image itself. I, being a novice, really like to hear from both sides and treat each type of critique with equal importance. Also, it seems that you are more likely to get good in depth comments if you are someone who gives them. I realized that after months of being "shy". Recently I have tried to find at least one good point (not hard at all) and one thing I would like to see different (very difficult at times) about each photo I plan to comment on.
Posted by RL Potts on February 11, 2008 at 2:27 PM
You need to learn and gain confidence. The way to do that is to interact. Sometimes we learn more from our mistakes than from our triumphs. Besides, the photo afficianados here seem pretty understanding about gaffes.
Here's one potential benefit of critiquing the images of others, Lisa: it may well directly benefit your own photography. I have roughly a 40:1 comment/image post ratio and it's not just because I'm Mr. Magnanimous. There's actually a selfish, if productive, reason for this. I really feel that, over the years, my own photography has benefited significantly more from critiquing the images of others than having my own images critiqued (not that I don't greatly appreciate the latter). I've found that forcing myself to work out what it is about an image that I like and what I might not like has made it immeasurably easier to make those judgments when in the field, and the more critiquing I do the easier it becomes to apply the critiquing criteria, a priori, when photographing.
Of all the obvious benefits that NPN provides, for me, this is the most significant.
I think every photoforum is very much like this, lots of looks with few comments. In addition to what Lisa mentioned I personally wonder if people are looking for feedback or just wanting to share their work.
I'm hesitant to post a comment, other than the predictable "Nice shot", if the poster is not soliciting for a critique. I worry that I'll come across as overly gruff on the web (would not be the first time ).
I've found that with my postings I get many more responses if:
1) I ask for them
2) I offer what I think I could have improved on (I limit myself or others would have nothing to say)
3) I include what I was after with the photo (straight landscape, warmth, ruggedness, etc)
Just my 0.02
Posted by David Bostedo on February 11, 2008 at 5:37 PM
Alex - I disagree somewhat with what you say. I think that when you post an image in a critique gallery, you are automatically "soliciting for a critique". I would hope that everyone would be willing to share their thoughts and opinions, good, bad or indifferent. I think if you don't want critique you should have to state that.
I've noticed some people adding things like "All comments welcome" and I really don't think that should be necessary. All comments should always be welcome as long as they follow the guidelines and are honest, unless the poster says he's just sharing the image and doesn't care about critique.
Posted by Lisa Wiesbauer on February 11, 2008 at 7:02 PM
Wow, with of that said, you'll be seeing my name pop up more often. I'll be including my "2 cents" whenever I can. I have myself taken some pretty cool pics over the years; to the point where friends thought I had downloaded screensavers (that were actually my shots).
I've just never had a "real" camera until last Fall. I'm just amazed how much I've learned in the past few months, much of it from this forum and how I'm looking at everything differently as I'm driving through the country.
Lisa
Posted by Lisa Wiesbauer on February 11, 2008 at 7:03 PM
Wow, with of that said, you'll be seeing my name pop up more often. I'll be including my "2 cents" whenever I can. I have myself taken some pretty cool pics over the years; to the point where friends thought I had downloaded screensavers (that were actually my shots).
I've just never had a "real" camera until last Fall. I'm just amazed how much I've learned in the past few months, much of it from this forum and how I'm looking at everything differently as I'm driving through the country.
Lisa
Posted by Mary Dempsey on February 11, 2008 at 9:23 PM
Thanks for the encouragement. I have had my camera for 2 years now but all of my pics have been shot on the auto dial. My life has changed so now I have the time and energy to begin the learning curve. Because I am clueless about the tech. stuff I have been reluctant to comment, although I have forced myself... a few times. It will still be uncomfortable for now but I will post more and stick to the emotional stuff that I am pretty good at. At least that's what my husband claims!!!
Mary
Posted by RL Potts on February 11, 2008 at 9:57 PM
I haven't been doing this for too long and may be mistaken, but it appears to me that you may get more discussion and attention to peripheral matters if you forego the galleries and post your photo to the regional forums. The pace is slower and your posts stay near the top of the page longer.
Posted by Stan Rose on February 12, 2008 at 12:45 AM
Lisa; I completely agree with Richard, Guy, and especially Kerry--my comment ratio is huge too for selfish reasons, i know it has helped me enormously over the past year to verbalize my gut reaction to photos in the galleries. Let the pros comment on technical aspects--its the emotional impact that is the most important thing. As i pointed out in my initial post, even a comment to the extent of "I honestly don't know what to say/make of this photo" is valuable input to the photographer--since that shows a lack of emotional impact.
RL, that's sometimes the case but not always. Often the regional groups have a tone of just simply sharing your latest photos, so unless you specifically ask for critique you might not get it.
Posted by Rick Dunn on February 12, 2008 at 9:40 AM
For me, the success of a photograph is defined by the emotional impact it has on the viewer. If anything, this forum could use more of that type of critique to balance and lend context to the comprehensive technical feedback.
Anyone willing to put a few thoughtful words together, regardless of experience level, has the ability to help even the most seasoned and accomplished photographers on this site.
Posted by Peter Carroll on February 12, 2008 at 12:05 PM
Well said Rick. Myopia can be a real problem. The challlenge I guess is to master the technical so it's second nature and then the true photographic expression can blossom. Photography is an interesting art form in the fact that it draws more tech heads than say painting or sculpture or acting etc. However, just like the book smart doctor with no bedside manner or the intelligent engineer who doesn't design with the user in mind, a photographer with high technical skills but no emotional impact in his or her work will wow some peers but not the masses. I'm guilty of weighting my critiques to technical points. You've inspired me to respond in a more balanced way in the future.
David - I've thought the same in the past, and perhaps need to revisit the idea of these galleries, but I still find people hesitant to "critque" if not solicited.
I think some of us are looking for critiques of different aspects of our photography. I'm still a beginner looking for technical and emotional critiques. I think anyone should feel free to comment on an image in either case.
I think having other beginners comment on technical issues, if possible, helps both parties more than leaving it to the professionals (this might not be exactly what you meant Stan, but you get my drift).
Rick - I certainly didn't mean to blow-off the inclusion of positive comments. I agree that it is very often too easy to dwell on negatives and not include positives . . . but, simply adding a "Nice shot" to the list of other "Wows" and "Great photo" is ego stroking and not much more. It is nice, and as a beginner I like it too, but it doesn't help any more than saying "This photo sucks". It would be helpful if people included more "I like this because . . . " that way people know that they nailed the composition, or available light, worked the depth-of-focus well, etc, etc.
I realize that both constructive criticism and constructive praise take time, I just wonder if you should always leave a comment when you've visited a photo or should you just visit fewer photos.
(Sorry to see you leave CO by the way, but the shindig was great this year and OR is a beautiful state).
Well, I wonder why I come off as gruff. Let me amend the "ego stroking" comment.
I don't think there is anything wrong with posting a photo that you are proud of and want to show off. There is certainly nothing wrong with congratulating someone on a nice photo that bring out your emotions and that is well (or perfectly) executed.
I wonder if this "issue" could best be solved by having a dedicated "critique" gallery where you post images with your own critique (i.e. I'm not sure if I'm conveying the message I want with this photo, here's what I was after ..... what do you think?) and solicit other comments.
It would probably be overly cumbersome to work and might end up just as flooded with images as the current galleries. Then again, perhaps we're making a mountain out of a molehill with this topic.
Discussion
19 repliesI myself have looked at just about every picture and have read almost every post since I started last Fall. You've been very helpful in answering equip. questions-thanks again!
I've been reading Nature Photography books and have recently signed up in a local club.
Last summer I couldn't have told you what an f/stop was, but now I find myself pouring over the pics., looking at composition and deciding what settings to play w/next.
My ultimate goal after joining the network (which I'll be doing soon) is to try to get a portfolio page of my own up and running.
Once I'm to that point, I might feel semi worthy enough to comment on some of the absoultely astounding photographs I've seen here-other than just saying it's a great picture.
Maybe I'm wrong in my thinking. Please let me know.
Lisa
My only bit of advice is that some folks who post photos will respond to your questions, while others won't. You'll quickly learn which are more responsive and more worthy of your time in hitting the reply button. Doesn't mean you shouldn't look at them all and enjoy what you see, but as you comment more, don't let the lack of responsiveness of a few sour you from commenting. The dialogs that can develop are the best learning tool of all.
Even if you're not comfortable commenting on the technical aspects of the image, anyone can offer an opinion on the aesthetic, artistic, or emotional appeal, whether they know the first thing about photography or not.
Guy
Post anyway. Please, give your opinions anyway.
I actually prefer feedback from people like you, rather than the "old pros" and let me tell you why. Photographers tend to give fairly predictable feedback, usually based on the image's technical merits (or not).
Rarely are their comments based on how the image impacts them on an emotional level. Thats what I want to hear.
So when I ask for feedback from my photographer friends, I get suggestions on cropping, exposure, DOF, color casts, clone this out, etc. I am my own harshest critic when it comes to this stuff, so it really has much less value to me. Not that i don't appreciate it.
When I seek feedback from my non-photographer friends, those who happen to share the same interests and passions as mine, I get more information on how the image makes them feel, rather than then the technicals, because they don't know about the technicals. This is much more valuable to me.
So, your input is valuable - at least to me it is. Your opinion on how the image makes you feel has just as much merit as a 25-year photography veteran. I have editors tell me all the time that they would prefer a technically flawed image that strikes an emotional chord with the viewers over a technically perfect image that is emotionally sterile.
Keep learning...NPN is a tremendous resource. But don't be shy. Speak out.
Thats my two cents...
Richard
Of all the obvious benefits that NPN provides, for me, this is the most significant.
I'm hesitant to post a comment, other than the predictable "Nice shot", if the poster is not soliciting for a critique. I worry that I'll come across as overly gruff on the web (would not be the first time
I've found that with my postings I get many more responses if:
1) I ask for them
2) I offer what I think I could have improved on (I limit myself or others would have nothing to say)
3) I include what I was after with the photo (straight landscape, warmth, ruggedness, etc)
Just my 0.02
I've noticed some people adding things like "All comments welcome" and I really don't think that should be necessary. All comments should always be welcome as long as they follow the guidelines and are honest, unless the poster says he's just sharing the image and doesn't care about critique.
I've just never had a "real" camera until last Fall. I'm just amazed how much I've learned in the past few months, much of it from this forum and how I'm looking at everything differently as I'm driving through the country.
Lisa
I've just never had a "real" camera until last Fall. I'm just amazed how much I've learned in the past few months, much of it from this forum and how I'm looking at everything differently as I'm driving through the country.
Lisa
Mary
RL, that's sometimes the case but not always. Often the regional groups have a tone of just simply sharing your latest photos, so unless you specifically ask for critique you might not get it.
Anyone willing to put a few thoughtful words together, regardless of experience level, has the ability to help even the most seasoned and accomplished photographers on this site.
I think some of us are looking for critiques of different aspects of our photography. I'm still a beginner looking for technical and emotional critiques. I think anyone should feel free to comment on an image in either case.
I think having other beginners comment on technical issues, if possible, helps both parties more than leaving it to the professionals (this might not be exactly what you meant Stan, but you get my drift).
Rick - I certainly didn't mean to blow-off the inclusion of positive comments. I agree that it is very often too easy to dwell on negatives and not include positives . . . but, simply adding a "Nice shot" to the list of other "Wows" and "Great photo" is ego stroking and not much more. It is nice, and as a beginner I like it too, but it doesn't help any more than saying "This photo sucks". It would be helpful if people included more "I like this because . . . " that way people know that they nailed the composition, or available light, worked the depth-of-focus well, etc, etc.
I realize that both constructive criticism and constructive praise take time, I just wonder if you should always leave a comment when you've visited a photo or should you just visit fewer photos.
(Sorry to see you leave CO by the way, but the shindig was great this year and OR is a beautiful state).
I don't think there is anything wrong with posting a photo that you are proud of and want to show off. There is certainly nothing wrong with congratulating someone on a nice photo that bring out your emotions and that is well (or perfectly) executed.
I wonder if this "issue" could best be solved by having a dedicated "critique" gallery where you post images with your own critique (i.e. I'm not sure if I'm conveying the message I want with this photo, here's what I was after ..... what do you think?) and solicit other comments.
It would probably be overly cumbersome to work and might end up just as flooded with images as the current galleries. Then again, perhaps we're making a mountain out of a molehill with this topic.