Well we (rightfully) celebrate the excellent works of achievement by Marc and many others, let's not forget the completely poignant comment of Ashutosh.
I've really not been around these parts much, so please take the following question for what it is worth: Rather than a mere showcase or a collection of platitudes, like so many other current photo websites on the internet, aren't NPN Photo Critique Galleries designed to be a place of meaningful commentary, critique, and learning? That is not to suggest that those things no longer occur here (that are many dedicated commentators who consistently provide critiques), but I feel that they occur much less consistently then they should.
If the image Ashutosh cites was more than, roughly, six weeks ago, it has undoubtedly scrolled into oblivion by now...
Posted by Stan Rose on February 24, 2008 at 1:59 PM
Oh man, and i was hoping to have a shot at the zero comments record, darn!
Brian, I think there's room for both critique/commentary and simple reaction (which, in Marc and a few others case, usually just involves a "Wow" or something similar!) in the galleries. I totally agree that there could be more attempt at critique, see my rant from a couple weeks ago in this forum, but i dont think that's a statement about NPN or how its run, its more a function of its members and how they approach the comments. It's a hard thing to do via e-communication to critique without coming off as being perceived negative, picky, or sometimes downright arrogant. I think that's why some people would rather avoid that risk, but im just speculating based on the fact that i find it a challenging task sometimes (although that doesnt stop me!)
Posted by Pam Colander on February 24, 2008 at 4:35 PM
There is no denying that Marc's dedicated work has put him in a well deserved rarified position in the world of landscape photography. What amazes me is finding all the sites he actively participates in. It is obvious that he reads every single post because he seems to answer every question put to him. I think he must have several clones running around to do that PLUS be out in the field and now conducting workshops. Makes me tired just thinking about it.
PS- hands off the zero comments award race Stan...I'm a close second behind Ashutosh
I'm still curious what gallery has images falling off the page with zero comments. I'm quite positive that doesn't happen on ES&S and where it does, I'll say the moderators are asleep at the wheel. This should not happen.
Guy
Posted by Brad Kargus on February 24, 2008 at 6:17 PM
First of all, congratulations to Marc on his success and thank you to him for sharing so many great images with us.
Regarding commentary on the outstanding images posted here by Marc and so many others, I am as floored as the next person by the quality. However I still attempt to provide my thoughts and analyses even if it is a small critique on a perfect image that I feel could make it even more perfect .
In truth, the exercise of challenging myself to continue thinking critically is probably many times more beneficial for me than for the posting photographer. I can begin to understand the thought process behind the image by relaying how things like elements in the composition work for me. It is possible that the photographer has already realized everything I say but this is art and there is always the chance that I have offered a unique view that may be of benefit to the photographer or anyone reading the comment.
Posted by Toni Lankerd on February 24, 2008 at 7:02 PM
Looks like we have at least a 4 way race going for the zero comment award. I posted an image this past fall in Avian and had 99 views but not one comment. Consequently, I deleted the image even though it was as good as, and similar to, the one I had posted a couple days before..which did get comments, go figure.
Posted by William Brozy on February 24, 2008 at 9:09 PM
Go figure Toni! i don't happen to venture in that neck of the woods (avian) but you know if I had seen it, I'd stop in, say hi and offer a thought or two. It's rare but I'll hold onto to my tongue or in this case my keyboard on this issue but I will. However, if you want an honest critique of any of your images, give me a heads up or email it to me.
Guy, zero-comments should not happen, and while I cannot remember this one particular case, I am quite sure that this happens from time to time - and I blame myself for not commenting on the one image with 0-comments that I see every once in a while.
Brad, you actually always give great feedback, I really noticed that you try to give some substance to your comments and you succeed. I do this not always, sometimes there is no time, sometimes I am not in the mood for it, sometimes I just lack the words.
Regarding the huge number of comments Marc receives, I take the risk and state the following: it is not because of the quality of his work only (which I do not question), it is also because he is a photo-celebrity and he has a fan-base here. I see (in my humble opinion) equally good photographs here but receiving much less comments and clicks. He gets some 500 to 700 views, while others get only 50 to 100. I just felt I should stress this.
Before something is perceived wrong: I do adore Marc's work and he deserves the attention he gets. Even if one does not like his photographs, his work and dedication he puts into has to be honored. Also his open attitude regarding sharing secrets and hints is awesome.
I did not have the courage to say exactly what Dietrich said, but I believe Dietrich is right on. I want to make clear my following comment has nothing to do with any particular photographer. Marc and so many others here are great photographers who richly deserve all the successes that they achieve. And I wish him and others like him nothing but the best.
But NPN has transitioned somewhat away from it's egalitarian roots towards a showcase mentality where people flock to the work of a select few in a race to post the most complimentary comments the quickest. Meanwhile, many good and worthy images are not given the same star treatment (and I'm as guilty of this as the next person on occasion, so I'm not trying to call anyone out). That's not to mention the almost good images, which really need an honest critique so the poster can correct the few remaining flaws and turn it into a good image. Frankly, for this reason, I believe that NPN has lost some of its inspiration and creative energy that first made it so special and is tragically transitioning towards just another ordinary photo site on the web.
I've said my peace, and will speak no more. This is not meant as an attack on any particular person or group of people. I appreciate the work of Jim and all the moderators. Only a comment on the direction of things from someone who has stepped away from here long enough to have an objective view. If someone wishes to lambaste me for an honest and genuine feeling about this place, have at it. As I said, I will speak no more of this issue.
Posted by Toni Lankerd on February 25, 2008 at 10:00 AM
Thank you, Will. I appreciate the offer very much and just might take you up on it, occasionally.
Posted by Marc Adamus on February 25, 2008 at 10:24 AM
Guy, thanks.
As to the zero comments issue, I'm sure that hasn't happened on ESS and we're all in agreement it should not happen elsewhere.
I strongly disagree that there are more comments given to "photo celebrities" on NPN simply because they are well known (ok, maybe a few more sometimes but facts show there it's minimal at most). There are more views, surely, and most of that from outsiders. Facts indicate anyone, at any time, can achieve a ton of comments. Chip Phillips must have had 60 or so on one of his very first posts, as a non-member. If I had posted the very same image, I probably would not have recieved any more comments than that. Todd C. had 70+ on the ESS forum just a couple months ago too. Pedro Bento had 50+ on his first post, Ellen Deboer recieved 45 just last week, I could go on and on and on with all the examples of high comment counts by lesser known photographers on ESS. Those numbers are rare, even for myself. Two of my very best images in the last year barely had 30. I believe there are easily an equal number of people who will stay away from commenting on my work, Guy's, and the like for the simple reason that they assume it will garner a lot of comments anyway. I know we've had numerous photographers state that right here on this forum before. Probably the most important factor for recieving comments yourself is to contribute actively, and timing.
If people start turning the number of comments into a competitive aspect, it degrades NPN for everyone. The goal needs to be solely the interpretation of the images posted and meaningful feedback. I'm sure Guy's intention in posting this wasn't to debate the topic in that fashion, but there have been some points raised here that I felt I should address.
Marc, thanks for contributing to this and I know you do not missunderstand me.
I do not always comment on your images, sometimes I really do not know what to say, what has not been commented before, very seldom they do not grab me, but I cannot say why.
The number of comments should not be a competitive aspect, right.
Anyway I can't deny my own strategy, I do click every single Adamus, Tal, Overacker, Chambers, Rao - you name them. I eventually also comment on them. Many other people do it in a similar fashion (there was a "what makes you click"-thread). This yields lots of views and lots of comments.
Of course there is a reason why people keep looking for the mentioned big names (it's because they deliver!) and once a photo pops up it is most likely an excellent one and it gets a comment. But many of these comments are "wow, awesome work dude" -and this is not meaningful feedback (not that I do not comment like this). To me this seems to be more a way to let the respective photographer know that his new work was seen and "approved". Such kind of comments are not given for the lesser known photographers, but that's maybe just my subjective perception.
But I also agree that excellent work always yields numerous responses, that's for sure.
I really did not mean to steal the thread and turn it into such a discussion, but I wanted to speak my mind, that's what this place is for. Please excuse the guy from Austria, he is a bitter man...
Posted by Stan Rose on February 25, 2008 at 2:44 PM
Well, to put things in perspective, if Brittney Spears posted a photo in the gallery, i gaurantee you it would get 400,000 views and at least 1,000 comments on the first day (mainly from the flood of new NPN members). And the quality probably wouldnt be as high as Marcs' (although ya never know ) So, 70 comments aint that significant in the big picture
Posted by Eric Peterson on February 25, 2008 at 3:19 PM
Very well said Stan. One other thing I have noticed is that people like Marc, Guy Tal, Bill Chambers, and many of the other better known photographers are also the ones that give the most comments and participate the most. I know I am much more likely to comment on someone that has given me comments in the past than someone who just posts. I don't think it is just because they are "photo celebrities" that they get the most comments, it's that people feel if they took the time to look at my stuff and leave a meaningful comment I should do the same for them. They are known and respected for their involvement not just their images.
Hey guys, I'm really sorry - a comment that I intended to be completely tongue-in-cheek has turned up into a a controversy about something else. I guess I should've put some emoticons in there when I posted it ...
Discussion
25 repliesForever Dreaming
We have a well-deserved new record for page-1 image comments (maybe new record overall?)
Guy
Well deserved, one of your most amazing images yet.
You deserve all the success that comes your way.
Lon
Kent in SD
Thanks for bring that one to my attention. I usually don't look on the ES&S gallery and would have missed it.
It got zero comments.
In fact, given the total number of views for those zero comments, that would be a new overall record in it's own right.
I've really not been around these parts much, so please take the following question for what it is worth: Rather than a mere showcase or a collection of platitudes, like so many other current photo websites on the internet, aren't NPN Photo Critique Galleries designed to be a place of meaningful commentary, critique, and learning? That is not to suggest that those things no longer occur here (that are many dedicated commentators who consistently provide critiques), but I feel that they occur much less consistently then they should.
Guy
Brian, I think there's room for both critique/commentary and simple reaction (which, in Marc and a few others case, usually just involves a "Wow" or something similar!) in the galleries. I totally agree that there could be more attempt at critique, see my rant from a couple weeks ago in this forum, but i dont think that's a statement about NPN or how its run, its more a function of its members and how they approach the comments. It's a hard thing to do via e-communication to critique without coming off as being perceived negative, picky, or sometimes downright arrogant. I think that's why some people would rather avoid that risk, but im just speculating based on the fact that i find it a challenging task sometimes (although that doesnt stop me!)
PS- hands off the zero comments award race Stan...I'm a close second behind Ashutosh
Pam
Guy
Regarding commentary on the outstanding images posted here by Marc and so many others, I am as floored as the next person by the quality. However I still attempt to provide my thoughts and analyses even if it is a small critique on a perfect image that I feel could make it even more perfect
In truth, the exercise of challenging myself to continue thinking critically is probably many times more beneficial for me than for the posting photographer. I can begin to understand the thought process behind the image by relaying how things like elements in the composition work for me. It is possible that the photographer has already realized everything I say but this is art and there is always the chance that I have offered a unique view that may be of benefit to the photographer or anyone reading the comment.
Brad, you actually always give great feedback, I really noticed that you try to give some substance to your comments and you succeed. I do this not always, sometimes there is no time, sometimes I am not in the mood for it, sometimes I just lack the words.
Regarding the huge number of comments Marc receives, I take the risk and state the following: it is not because of the quality of his work only (which I do not question), it is also because he is a photo-celebrity and he has a fan-base here. I see (in my humble opinion) equally good photographs here but receiving much less comments and clicks. He gets some 500 to 700 views, while others get only 50 to 100. I just felt I should stress this.
Before something is perceived wrong: I do adore Marc's work and he deserves the attention he gets. Even if one does not like his photographs, his work and dedication he puts into has to be honored. Also his open attitude regarding sharing secrets and hints is awesome.
Regards, Dietrich
But NPN has transitioned somewhat away from it's egalitarian roots towards a showcase mentality where people flock to the work of a select few in a race to post the most complimentary comments the quickest. Meanwhile, many good and worthy images are not given the same star treatment (and I'm as guilty of this as the next person on occasion, so I'm not trying to call anyone out). That's not to mention the almost good images, which really need an honest critique so the poster can correct the few remaining flaws and turn it into a good image. Frankly, for this reason, I believe that NPN has lost some of its inspiration and creative energy that first made it so special and is tragically transitioning towards just another ordinary photo site on the web.
I've said my peace, and will speak no more. This is not meant as an attack on any particular person or group of people. I appreciate the work of Jim and all the moderators. Only a comment on the direction of things from someone who has stepped away from here long enough to have an objective view. If someone wishes to lambaste me for an honest and genuine feeling about this place, have at it. As I said, I will speak no more of this issue.
As to the zero comments issue, I'm sure that hasn't happened on ESS and we're all in agreement it should not happen elsewhere.
I strongly disagree that there are more comments given to "photo celebrities" on NPN simply because they are well known (ok, maybe a few more sometimes but facts show there it's minimal at most). There are more views, surely, and most of that from outsiders. Facts indicate anyone, at any time, can achieve a ton of comments. Chip Phillips must have had 60 or so on one of his very first posts, as a non-member. If I had posted the very same image, I probably would not have recieved any more comments than that. Todd C. had 70+ on the ESS forum just a couple months ago too. Pedro Bento had 50+ on his first post, Ellen Deboer recieved 45 just last week, I could go on and on and on with all the examples of high comment counts by lesser known photographers on ESS. Those numbers are rare, even for myself. Two of my very best images in the last year barely had 30. I believe there are easily an equal number of people who will stay away from commenting on my work, Guy's, and the like for the simple reason that they assume it will garner a lot of comments anyway. I know we've had numerous photographers state that right here on this forum before. Probably the most important factor for recieving comments yourself is to contribute actively, and timing.
If people start turning the number of comments into a competitive aspect, it degrades NPN for everyone. The goal needs to be solely the interpretation of the images posted and meaningful feedback. I'm sure Guy's intention in posting this wasn't to debate the topic in that fashion, but there have been some points raised here that I felt I should address.
I do not always comment on your images, sometimes I really do not know what to say, what has not been commented before, very seldom they do not grab me, but I cannot say why.
The number of comments should not be a competitive aspect, right.
Anyway I can't deny my own strategy, I do click every single Adamus, Tal, Overacker, Chambers, Rao - you name them. I eventually also comment on them. Many other people do it in a similar fashion (there was a "what makes you click"-thread). This yields lots of views and lots of comments.
Of course there is a reason why people keep looking for the mentioned big names (it's because they deliver!) and once a photo pops up it is most likely an excellent one and it gets a comment. But many of these comments are "wow, awesome work dude" -and this is not meaningful feedback (not that I do not comment like this). To me this seems to be more a way to let the respective photographer know that his new work was seen and "approved". Such kind of comments are not given for the lesser known photographers, but that's maybe just my subjective perception.
But I also agree that excellent work always yields numerous responses, that's for sure.
I really did not mean to steal the thread and turn it into such a discussion, but I wanted to speak my mind, that's what this place is for. Please excuse the guy from Austria, he is a bitter man...
Guy, the image was this one: http://rajekar.ca/quebec/lacmoore.php, and seems to have been drowned in the other posts at NPN.
Once again - I really apologize for the diversion.