I am a new member of NPN, registered on February 6. I am absolutely amazed at the quality of work displayed in the Avian gallery. I have been an avid photographer for many years, but just recently, about the last six months have become obsessed with Avian photography. I have always been a serious birder.
My only disappointment is the number of people that do not seem to comment on images. I see many photos with over 200 views and maybe only 15-20 comments. I see many times an individual has more posts than comments. It is incredible what I have learned from the comments that I have received and thank you to all who have commented. I learn as much from comments on the images of others. Are many of these views coming from non-members who cannot comment?
Are many of these views coming from non-members who cannot comment?
Undoubtedly this is a substantial percentage of the disparity between views and comments--exactly how large, I couldn't say with any confidence.
While not intimately familiar with the habits of the avian forum in particular, the ratio of comments to views that you cite--one comment for every 10-15 views--is fairly typical of the IC galleries as a whole.
This subject--disparity between the number of comments and views; the relative lack of comments by some who post images--has come up repeatedly over the nearly six years that I've been registered on NPN and it's become increasingly clear to me that, while the concerns are valid, there is unfortunately little if anything to be done about it.
Posted by Marc Adamus on February 25, 2008 at 2:58 PM
Matt, a lot of, if not most of the views your images get are from the public, who cannot comment. 15-20 comments on an image in the Avian forum is pretty good. I wouldn't look too hard at the view/comment ratio. It might be nice if the system just counted NPN member views, but it does not.
What you mention about individuals with more posts than comments is very relevant, however. It's not fair to the community for people to post more than they comment. In fact, all contributors are strongly encouraged to comment MUCH more than they post. A ratio of 1 post to 10 comments should be the norm in my opinion. There are also many members that do this.
Posted by Gaurav Manglik on February 25, 2008 at 3:00 PM
this is one of the most common topics of discussion on this site.
I assume that there are quite a number of views coming from the public domain and not just the members of this website - that partially explains the disparity between views and comments.
Posted by Eric Peterson on February 25, 2008 at 3:12 PM
I am sure it has come up before but it might be an interesting feature if the non-NPNers could do a "thumbs up/thumbs down" vote on the images. This being said there really is a problem with people posting more than they comment, I have noticed though that those people have been getting less and less views and comments on their work so hopefully this will make them realize it's worth saying a few words if you want them said in return.
Posted by Toni Lankerd on February 25, 2008 at 5:27 PM
Welcome to NPN, Matt!
15-20 comments in the Avian IC isn't bad at all..I've seen less than that quite often. Sometimes it depends on the time of year or even day of the week. Personally, I try to make comments daily, as I can, in the various forums...maybe even more if I'm posting an image. As Marc mentioned, a 1 to 10 ratio should be the average.
I see you are from IL. Feel free to drop in and join the discussions or ask questions in the Midwest forum (MWNP in the Select Forum drop down box ).
Posted by Greg Barteluk on February 25, 2008 at 5:32 PM
Matt: I always read the existing comments before writing. If the point or comment I had in mind has already been made I usually don't repeat it.
Posted by Lon Overacker on February 25, 2008 at 6:20 PM
Matt,
Welcome to NPN. This is an age-old issue and not unique to NPN. It's already been noted about the public viewing/no comment... and that is certainly a factor.
IMHO, most of this is simply human behavior, and as Kerry mentioned, there's really not much that can be done to change it. Having said that, we as individuals can make a difference. For me, this is a community, and the more we participate ourselves, the better chance someone else will kick in and participate as well.
I also think there is a large, almost silent population of budding photographers who feel they aren't qualified to "critique" an image - and many have been forthcoming in admitting that. All I can say to those who feel they fit in this category.... is that everyone's "opinion" matters. Each one of us has a reaction (or no reaction) to an image and you're certainly qualified to say so - and encouraged to post your thoughts. Don't be shy!
Didn't mean to go on a tangent, but the last paragraph was perhaps a small example of why there are so many more views than comments.
Lastly, getting back to the community and participation, I would also encourage anyone who posts to provide more information and ask questions. Personally, I'm more apt to answer a question; even a simple one like "does this work for you?" And I'm also more inclined to comment when the photographer tries to put me there with words. I'm still cracking up over Kent Mearig's description of his pants freezing solid. Or Zack's Schnepf's description of what the scene meant to him.
Just my .02.
Welcome aboard Matt.
Lon
Posted by David Bostedo on February 25, 2008 at 7:35 PM
One other example Matt - when I look through images on here, I usually browse through the All Photos link, and may look at 30-40 images. I'll probably only comment on a handful of them, for which I have something to add, or I feel something needs to be said (in the case of 0 comment images). There is simply no possible way I can comment on everything I view, or want it to be that way, since I try to type a sentence or two (I don't like the thumbs up/thumbs down idea, as it's not very constructive).
Finally, 15-20 comments sounds fantastic - I don't think I've ever had more than 10 on anything I've posted. More importantly, though, is large comment counts usually contain more simple "Great job" type answers, simply because it's typically a great shot that garners many comments. If the image doesn't register with someone, for good or bad, they're less likely to comment.
It's obvious that this is not a new subject, sorry to bring up the issue again. You have brought up viewpoints that I had not considered. I'm sure this issue is not limited to NPN. Participation seems to be an issue in many group settings or activities.
Thanks for the invite to MWNP Toni. I'm sure I will be checking it out. Still finding my way around the site.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on February 25, 2008 at 8:41 PM
Matt, all great points made above. I will elaborate on the public domain aspect;
1. Unlike many other forums, NPN's IC galleries require no registration to view
2. A typical month sees about 100,000 unique visitors generating nearly 2 million page views
Those stats alone make it easy to see why there are so many views in comparison to posted comments - people surf in to simply view great nature photography!
I'll add my thoughts. We all have busy lives and (for me) health issues which limits the time spent on the computer. I used to be a frequent commentor and enjoyed doing so (and still do). Add to that the fact that there are so many new members who post and it's really hard to keep up or even try. So I end up viewing a few and logging off. Oh, and I'll mention dial-up and we all KNOW how time consuming THAT is!!!
Posted by Mary Dempsey on February 25, 2008 at 10:05 PM
I am one of the newbe's that is a tad shy. I have taken Lon's advise and tried to comment more, even if it's just my emotional response. But that gets hard after looking at a lot of posts at a time. I don't want to post just to improve my numbers. I don't think that helps anyone either. As to the general public... I was at work today and a co-worker was just serfing the web looking for pictures of humming birds. She is planning her next tatoo. She must have looked at 100 pics and some of them were from NPN. who knows where some of theses things go.
Thanks for the stats Jim. That really gives me a different view on the subject. I had no idea there were that many visitors. Those are pretty impressive numbers. The reason I joined NPN was to share my passion with others, had no idea it was that many others, that is spectacular. Thanks for all of the comments and different perspectives. Again, sorry for bringing up a subject already discussed in depth.
Posted by Jim Erhardt on February 26, 2008 at 6:52 AM
Matt, no problem! Just to add a bit more to my point, NPN does mighty well in search engines so it's pretty easy to find. For example, Google the following phrases and see what happens;
nature photography
wildlife photography
landscape photography
bird photography
photo critique forum
image critique forum
...and dozens of others. Anyone interested in nature photography is going to find us and all the great work posted by our members. With the links we provide to personal web pages and online portfolios, it's great exposure (no pun intended)!
Posted by Kent Johnson on February 26, 2008 at 12:09 PM
Lon Overacker hit the reason I'm shy about posting. I'm a relatively new member with not a lot to add. Even in this thread I find someone also already said what I'm thinking.
I'm a relatively new member with not a lot to add. Even in this thread I find someone also already said what I'm thinking.
There's nothing wrong with reinforcing a preceding comment or opinion. In fact, it arguably strengthens that point if it's repeated. For instance, if four people comment that they think a suggested crop will improve an image, it may have more meaning to the person posting the original image than if only one commenter says so...
Welcome to NPN. As someone whose been accused of not commenting enough I have to say that I am a little shy when it comes to critiquing other peoples work. I feel that I'm always working to improve my images so where do I get off saying that someone else's photo is bad. I know that's not the point, that it's here to help people but I can't help how I feel sometimes. I am also very busy with a full time job, a house to take care of and trying to start my photography career. However, I will start to comment more on people's work. Thanks for getting me off my butt, so to speak.
Posted by David Bostedo on February 26, 2008 at 6:26 PM
I feel that I'm always working to improve my images so where do I get off saying that someone else's photo is bad.
Well, to cite another example, I'm not a good basketball player, but when watching a game, I can tell who's good and who's bad. Same thing with photos to some extent. You might not know how to produce what you like, but you probably know what you like or don't like.
Posted by Rick Dunn on February 26, 2008 at 7:33 PM
I feel that I'm always working to improve my images so where do I get off saying that someone else's photo is bad
.
I understand where the perception comes from, but it's still sad to think that people equate "critique" with something bad.
A critique is an opinion, based on perception; it is - or can be - entirely independent of skill. Some of the best feedback I get is from my wife, who doesn't even qualify as a "novice" photographer. But she can articulate what she finds compelling and engaging about a photograph. It's my job to do something constructive with that information.
Perhaps commenting on technical aspects of an image requires or benefits from some photographic skill and knowledge, but anyone can comment on their emotional response to an image.
(I don't mean to put the spotlight on you, Amanda, by quoting you; just taking the opportunity to address a mindset that many folks in your shoes can probably relate to. )
This is a topic of discussion since 2001/02, I think.
I personally prefer 'constructive' comments than 'wow' or 'great' or some such adjective which is flattering but does no good. If you look at the popular 'images' many comments are on those lines.
Discussion
20 repliesMy only disappointment is the number of people that do not seem to comment on images. I see many photos with over 200 views and maybe only 15-20 comments. I see many times an individual has more posts than comments. It is incredible what I have learned from the comments that I have received and thank you to all who have commented. I learn as much from comments on the images of others. Are many of these views coming from non-members who cannot comment?
Undoubtedly this is a substantial percentage of the disparity between views and comments--exactly how large, I couldn't say with any confidence.
While not intimately familiar with the habits of the avian forum in particular, the ratio of comments to views that you cite--one comment for every 10-15 views--is fairly typical of the IC galleries as a whole.
This subject--disparity between the number of comments and views; the relative lack of comments by some who post images--has come up repeatedly over the nearly six years that I've been registered on NPN and it's become increasingly clear to me that, while the concerns are valid, there is unfortunately little if anything to be done about it.
What you mention about individuals with more posts than comments is very relevant, however. It's not fair to the community for people to post more than they comment. In fact, all contributors are strongly encouraged to comment MUCH more than they post. A ratio of 1 post to 10 comments should be the norm in my opinion. There are also many members that do this.
I assume that there are quite a number of views coming from the public domain and not just the members of this website - that partially explains the disparity between views and comments.
15-20 comments in the Avian IC isn't bad at all..I've seen less than that quite often. Sometimes it depends on the time of year or even day of the week. Personally, I try to make comments daily, as I can, in the various forums...maybe even more if I'm posting an image. As Marc mentioned, a 1 to 10 ratio should be the average.
I see you are from IL. Feel free to drop in and join the discussions or ask questions in the Midwest forum (MWNP in the Select Forum drop down box ).
Welcome to NPN. This is an age-old issue and not unique to NPN. It's already been noted about the public viewing/no comment... and that is certainly a factor.
IMHO, most of this is simply human behavior, and as Kerry mentioned, there's really not much that can be done to change it. Having said that, we as individuals can make a difference. For me, this is a community, and the more we participate ourselves, the better chance someone else will kick in and participate as well.
I also think there is a large, almost silent population of budding photographers who feel they aren't qualified to "critique" an image - and many have been forthcoming in admitting that. All I can say to those who feel they fit in this category.... is that everyone's "opinion" matters. Each one of us has a reaction (or no reaction) to an image and you're certainly qualified to say so - and encouraged to post your thoughts. Don't be shy!
Didn't mean to go on a tangent, but the last paragraph was perhaps a small example of why there are so many more views than comments.
Lastly, getting back to the community and participation, I would also encourage anyone who posts to provide more information and ask questions. Personally, I'm more apt to answer a question; even a simple one like "does this work for you?" And I'm also more inclined to comment when the photographer tries to put me there with words. I'm still cracking up over Kent Mearig's description of his pants freezing solid. Or Zack's Schnepf's description of what the scene meant to him.
Just my .02.
Welcome aboard Matt.
Lon
Finally, 15-20 comments sounds fantastic - I don't think I've ever had more than 10 on anything I've posted. More importantly, though, is large comment counts usually contain more simple "Great job" type answers, simply because it's typically a great shot that garners many comments. If the image doesn't register with someone, for good or bad, they're less likely to comment.
Thanks for the invite to MWNP Toni. I'm sure I will be checking it out. Still finding my way around the site.
1. Unlike many other forums, NPN's IC galleries require no registration to view
2. A typical month sees about 100,000 unique visitors generating nearly 2 million page views
Those stats alone make it easy to see why there are so many views in comparison to posted comments - people surf in to simply view great nature photography!
nature photography
wildlife photography
landscape photography
bird photography
photo critique forum
image critique forum
...and dozens of others. Anyone interested in nature photography is going to find us and all the great work posted by our members. With the links we provide to personal web pages and online portfolios, it's great exposure (no pun intended)!
There's nothing wrong with reinforcing a preceding comment or opinion. In fact, it arguably strengthens that point if it's repeated. For instance, if four people comment that they think a suggested crop will improve an image, it may have more meaning to the person posting the original image than if only one commenter says so...
Well, to cite another example, I'm not a good basketball player, but when watching a game, I can tell who's good and who's bad.
I understand where the perception comes from, but it's still sad to think that people equate "critique" with something bad.
A critique is an opinion, based on perception; it is - or can be - entirely independent of skill. Some of the best feedback I get is from my wife, who doesn't even qualify as a "novice" photographer. But she can articulate what she finds compelling and engaging about a photograph. It's my job to do something constructive with that information.
Perhaps commenting on technical aspects of an image requires or benefits from some photographic skill and knowledge, but anyone can comment on their emotional response to an image.
(I don't mean to put the spotlight on you, Amanda, by quoting you; just taking the opportunity to address a mindset that many folks in your shoes can probably relate to.
I personally prefer 'constructive' comments than 'wow' or 'great' or some such adjective which is flattering but does no good. If you look at the popular 'images' many comments are on those lines.
I also prefer 1:10 post:comment ratio by members.