Our high standards are slipping a bit recently . The mods would be grateful for your help in keeping the standards high - after all it's why you joined us . If you'd all bear the following in mind when you're posting....
1) Keep the language clean. We're a family forum and there's no need for swearing or swear words. Save 'em for work or for the pub on a night time.
2) We're a Nature photography forum. While most of us can tolerate the odd non-wild beastie once in while, it's not what we're about. Keep the non-wild stuff for the off-topics forum or for the Man & Nature forum. If you're posting a captive beastie, then let us know either in the title or the description (with a (c)). If it's a controlled beastie, or baited in to a feeding site, then again please let us know - it's simply a common courtesy to your fellow posters.
3) If you're dealing with sensitive species or information, please don't go advertising it on the forum. NPN and UKNP is a public forum and anything you post here is available to everyone - including Google! You never know who will see the information. If you're requesting the info, do it discretely - if you're giving the info, think before you give it away.... ie use your common sense.
4) If you've mud to fling at someone or some organisation or body, then take it up with them...not us. While the cat-fight might be amusing to one or two people... most of us aren't interested.
If one of the Mod's contacts you over something, don't take it personally - remember that the we're not here to censor or be partisan...we're simply here to keep the show on the right tracks and ensure this a nice place to hang out.
FWIW, the above isn't aimed at anyone in particular...it's aimed at us all .
Nick
I think thats very fair and nicely put.
However if I post a shot of a water beetle in a tank, is that to go on another site or can it go on this one as "controlled "? I assume it can.
Also what about Tape lures for birds ( which may be illegal in many cases), and mealworms for bait which are being used for many species compared to a few years back..There is also the point about how near to a nest is "disturbance " As an ex NNR warden I know how " can of wormsy " some of these points can be. !
By baited I think Nick is referred to staked out dead road kill (or definately to be discouraged live vole/lemming baited scenarios). As the RSPB openly advertises the sale of mealworms, they are not a problem otherwise we will be banning all types of feeding station photography,
I would classify tank work as 'controlled environment' or 'CE' for short
Tape luring of birds is a contentious subject, although widely used on the continent, I believe it is illegal in the UK (?) - you have to sit back and think why is it being used - usually to encourage a difficult or rare subject to show itself by forcing a competative display behaviour. At best it is a waste of a birds energy forcing it to display artificially, at worst it is preventing the subject from it's feeding pattern - a double energy loss whammy for the target subject. It is not a technique we should be encouraging
The aim of denoting 'captive/controlled/baited' etc isn't to bash or denigrate anyone's post or images, it's simply to allow the critique to be given in a proper manner. That's the reason the forum exists - to get feedback and critique on nature photography shots.
As I'm sure you're well aware, there are differences in what a photographer can do when a subject is 100% wild in a 100% uncontrolled situation as compared to when the subject is captive/controlled/baited in - comments such as 'move to left', 'clean up the area', 'put the branch the right way up' and so on can be made for some captive and a lot of controlled situations. If the commentors don't know the situation, then their comments can only be partly relevant. Having said that - there are occasions where it's so obviously a set up even though it hasn't been stated - such as moss/buds etc growing the wrong way on a branch - that it's embarrassing, and doesn't look good ... people need to get it right and be told if they get it wrong (diplomatically!) .
Also, a lot of people see 'Wow' shots being posted and wonder how they where obtained - if it's not obvious that the image was taken with some form of behind-the-scenes help, then people will wrongly think they can just walk up to subjects and take a shot - which may lead to unnecessary disturbance (and I don't just mean with birds).
Tank work can be posted here - it's basically a controlled environment, so should be noted as such. If, instead, you've gone snorkelling in a pond, well...let us know too .
Baiting - yes, as Mike says, most will think of roadkill etc and mainly bird of prey type shots (eg Finland+hide etc etc), but it would be useful to disclose even for smaller species such as tits and peckers where they've been baited in using particular foodstuffs. A lot of shots are taken at feeding stations.
Tape luring, as Mike pointed out, can be somewhat contentious and I don't think that it's something that we should actively encourage - either at home or abroad. Having said that, squeeking in is a method that can be used on some mammals. Ideally, 'audio luring' should be disclosed - but I think the poster would really have to use their head as to whether or not to draw attention to it.
It's about courtesy and respect - both for the subject, and for commentors/forum members. As I said, the aim of the forum is to give critique and feedback and to improve our nature photography. If we don't know how a shot was obtained, then it can be hard to give relevant advice or for others to learn from the post.
Thanks both.
Points well covered.
I am sure as the Spring arrives, the internet bird photo sites will abound with birds with beaks wide open.As photographer raised in the nest photography days 50 years back I do appreciate how times and attitudes have changed. We had to do it that way- we didn't have the gear there is these days.
I remember the RSPB saying to me many years back.
"We are going off nest photography so if you do it don't show the nest in the picture ".
That about sums it up.
Cheers
JohnR
I beg to differ! I for one try too put as much detail as possible when posting, as do a great many others on this forum. Ok I agree not all do, but a high percentage of posts here have good details!
I include camera settings and support used along with some detail of weather conditions at the time and whether it was attracted to a feeding station or not!
Nick
Somehow I missed this part of your reply earlier _
" Ideally, 'audio luring' should be disclosed - but I think the poster would really have to use their head as to whether or not to draw attention to it."
I really do think that if baiting is to be disclosed and other aspects of how the shot was attained, then it really should be imperative that tape luring is declared too .I personally think it is far more detrimental to a birds general well being (especially in the breeding season.) than baiting would ever be.
I feel it should be emphasised that to disturb any breeding bird by any means really is illegal in this country. We all know that with todays technology it is so easy to carry around portable playback gear. I know the RSPB do it for density counts etc but that doesn't make it right. It seems to me that in todays "everyones a bird snapper " photographic world , sometimes the desire to get a picture of a particular species overides everything
How far we take it is not just a matter for ourselves to decide.
Thanks
JohnR
"I feel it should be emphasised that to disturb any breeding bird by any means really is illegal in this country."
John, I think you left out "schedule 1" in the above sentence between bredding and bird?
The issue of audio playback is always one that sits on the ethic fence. That said my understanding is that the use of audio only falls foul of the law (W1984) when used for the "taking" of birds only (in the gamekeepers context), hence its use for photography would only be detrimental if it constituted disturbance of a schedule 1 species for which you did not have a license.
Cheers
T
Posted by John Robinson on April 10, 2008 at 4:20 AM
Tom
Hi- I know it definately applies to any Schedule I ,as I was involved in prosecutions, but I have a feeling that it is illegal to "willfully disturb" a breeding bird in this country without authorisation.
.( Such as building works halted due to sparrows nesting etc, hedge cutting after April, etc)
I may be wrong however - that above could just be a local thing.
Cheers
John
Edit
Yes Tom you are correct.I just contacted Peterborough It is not illegal to willfully disturb a non Scedule I bird at the nest as long as you don't "destroy the bird or the nest"
Shame but there we are- so its up to the photographer.
Cheers
John
Your quite right, you do supply information with your images, but only concerning your camera settings, and to my mind some are irrelevant as they only pertain to the instant when you pressed the button, and that instant in time has long gone, as has those conditions.
Taking your shot of the “Robin” your techs are:
Body: Nikon D2Xs
Lens: Nikon 200-400mm f/4 VR & TC 17E II
Exposure Mode: Aperture Priority
Metering Mode: Spot
Exposure Comp: 0.0 EV
AF Mode: AF-C
Sensitivity: ISO 200
White Balance: Cloudy
Shutter Speed: 1/8 sec
Aperture: f6.7
Focal Length: 650mm
Tripod: Gitzo G1548
Head: Wimberley Gimbal V2
Full Frame, Slight lift in Levels, USM 30%, 0.2, 0.0
The camera body is irrelevant with regards to the image, any modern camera will do, infact I could post a 10+ year old slide and if I didn’t say, I doubt if you could tell. Particularly as you post at 200k.
The lens, well any lens in this range would do, even a straight 600.
Exposure Mode: Aperture Priority, Metering Mode: Spot , Exposure Comp: 0.0 EV , AF Mode: AF-C, Sensitivity: ISO 200, White Balance: Cloudy. All of this pertains to the instant of exposure, and thus has little real relevance.
Shutter Speed: 1/8 sec, Aperture: f6.7, now this is of interest when commenting on an image. Now look thro’ the threads and see who refers to this information in their comments, suggesting different settings etc.. Very few, if any.
Focal Length: 650mm, covered above.
Tripod: Gitzo G1548, Head: Wimberley Gimbal V2, of some interest but not overly so, other than a mechanical support was used.
If I was a beginner, then I would learn little from your image, except possibly composition, in so far as, what works and what doesn’t.
Your shot of the “Robin”, it could have been taken in your back garden when you were having a beer, the local park, on a refuge, at a feeding station, from a established hide, a car, portable hide, you don’t say, but as a beginner, this is the sort of information that I would be looking for.
Rob
In your Blue Tit shot you state and I quote:
A couple of weeks ago I set up a feeding station on some local land.
Did you take the shot outside the reserve, from a car perhaps, or was it taken on the reserve, from a path or from a hide ?? You don’t say.
In both shots what was the actual foal length. 100, 200, 300 or 400 on the zoom ?? Same settings, but the Bittern is how many times bigger, relative to the Blue Tit ??
Above I said:
No one, or very few, are in the least bit interest as to how an image is achieved prior to pushing the button.
I should have qualified it by also saying “If they were, then they would give the information, or ask about it”.
Paul and Rob, I’m sure you now get the idea. To take the image, you have to get your camera firstly into position, scant attention, if any, is ever supplied and this is what most people, give at least lip service to, wanting to know.
I could take any camera, put it on a 800 with 2x converter, possibly crop it and get the exact same image, as if I used, say, a straight 200. In one instance I’m in the next county, in the other, I’m in a hide, but the image will be near enough, exactly the same.
In many ways, it is what is done before pushing the button that after it, including the cameras settings, that is the most important, particularly for the beginner.
For a different aspect of this thread.
JohnR is correct, when he says that what every means was used in achieving the final image, should be declared.
But I guarantee, that if someone said that they used a tape, then it is like putting your head above the parapet, and then being surprised when its shot off, because it will be. So being conservative with the truth is the rule.
Just look at the comments made about using live mice. There is basically no difference in using mealworms or fish in a tank for kingfishers. You are using a living organism, and yes killing it, in order to achieve your image. Is it better for the mouse to be cleanly killed by that owl, or to be that mealworm, ripped apart whilst still alive, by the Blue Tit.
Surely, it is for the individual to examine their own conscience, and then act accordingly, rather than others to act as self appointed judge, jury and executioner. I personally admire honesty, as against what can only be called hypocrisy.
You're not wrong and it is a country wide thing - all birds are protected at the nest/colony. Hence you can't just remove a house martin's nest from your roof or destroy a sand martin colony in your pile of building sand - while the nests/colony are in use. However, certain species are given extended protection from disturbance for them and their dependent young at or near the nest - they're the S1 species.
It's always worth reading the relevant bits of legislation - a web search will turn plenty of info up, but stick to the info from the official bodies - not the hearsay info that is given on web forums as there's so much confusion and fluff stated.
sometimes the desire to get a picture of a particular species overides everything
That is why I said that sometimes it may require the poster to use their head as to whether to disclose - ie draw attention to - something or not. Sometimes it's better to be quiet and not go broadcasting ideas or putting ideas into someones head who hasn't the skill/experience/maturity/responsibility to use the info properly. Again, if someone asks you directly/in private, then you need to consider if they're mature/suitable to tell the information to.
It is about being sensible and responsible.
Posted by John Robinson on April 10, 2008 at 6:52 AM
Nick
All I really meant to say in the first place was that in my view tape luring was not a good idea, and if baiting should be declared when posting,then so should using tape.
Yes as I say I know all about the scheduled stuff as Ive had to have several licences it was the everyday birds I was confused about. (And even some of those doing the legislation are a bit wooly to say the least.)
If you knew of some of the things I've seen over the past three years in the name of "bird photography" you would cringe!
Cheers
John
Posted by Ian Andrews on April 19, 2008 at 7:45 AM
An interesting thread, one that I read when first posted, and noticing a number of replies, have come back to!
I think the crux of the matter is that it is a publicly viewable forum and, therefore, I for one am reluctant to post specific details of methods. Not because I want to keep them secret, but more because of the things I have seen the ATGANI brigade get up to!
I can see Nick's points, where the 'class' of photography is concerned. i.e. (c) (CE) etc. along with other POV's like the equipment specs being of little use although they do have some relevence.
Lures, of any description, will always court a amount of controversy wherever you go, and some are much less ethical than others. Some, such as live baiting with captive bred prey, should never be used!
Who can say though, that they have never used any sort of lure? I'd guess at no-one as a feeding station/bird table is a form of luring!!
What it all boils down to is 'common sense', something that is lacking in some areas in today's society, and the reason to be careful what you say in a public forum!
If anyone wants to know exactly how I do what I do, just ask......... by e-mail!
Hello
I have read everything with a lot of attention.What made me smile is that this thread was posted just after a few very good picture a little bird.Jalousy I do not know, but that is what triger the thread.
Ialso totaly agreed with Ian when he say
""Lures, of any description, will always court a amount of controversy wherever you go, and some are much less ethical than others. Some, such as live baiting with captive bred prey, should never be used!
Who can say though, that they have never used any sort of lure? I'd guess at no-one as a feeding station/bird table is a form of luring!!"""
I have read everything with a lot of attention.What made me smile is that this thread was posted just after a few very good picture a little bird.Jalousy I do not know, but that is what triger the thread.
lol Frederic, you got that wrong! There is no jealousy involved in this topic being raised - the moderators had been discussing re-emphasizing the guidelines for a number of weeks before this was posted. FWIW, the trigger was a couple of postings that overstepped the mark in a very short time - hence this reminder to read the forum guidelines, to have a bit of respect for people and use common sense.
This forum has a good reputation, and the moderators aim to keep it that way with everyones help....
Discussion
17 replies1) Keep the language clean. We're a family forum and there's no need for swearing or swear words. Save 'em for work or for the pub on a night time.
2) We're a Nature photography forum. While most of us can tolerate the odd non-wild beastie once in while, it's not what we're about. Keep the non-wild stuff for the off-topics forum or for the Man & Nature forum. If you're posting a captive beastie, then let us know either in the title or the description (with a (c)). If it's a controlled beastie, or baited in to a feeding site, then again please let us know - it's simply a common courtesy to your fellow posters.
3) If you're dealing with sensitive species or information, please don't go advertising it on the forum. NPN and UKNP is a public forum and anything you post here is available to everyone - including Google! You never know who will see the information. If you're requesting the info, do it discretely - if you're giving the info, think before you give it away.... ie use your common sense.
4) If you've mud to fling at someone or some organisation or body, then take it up with them...not us. While the cat-fight might be amusing to one or two people... most of us aren't interested.
If one of the Mod's contacts you over something, don't take it personally - remember that the we're not here to censor or be partisan...we're simply here to keep the show on the right tracks and ensure this a nice place to hang out.
FWIW, the above isn't aimed at anyone in particular...it's aimed at us all
Nick, Phil, Tom.
I think thats very fair and nicely put.
However if I post a shot of a water beetle in a tank, is that to go on another site or can it go on this one as "controlled "? I assume it can.
Also what about Tape lures for birds ( which may be illegal in many cases), and mealworms for bait which are being used for many species compared to a few years back..There is also the point about how near to a nest is "disturbance " As an ex NNR warden I know how " can of wormsy " some of these points can be. !
Thanks
JohnR
I would classify tank work as 'controlled environment' or 'CE' for short
Tape luring of birds is a contentious subject, although widely used on the continent, I believe it is illegal in the UK (?) - you have to sit back and think why is it being used - usually to encourage a difficult or rare subject to show itself by forcing a competative display behaviour. At best it is a waste of a birds energy forcing it to display artificially, at worst it is preventing the subject from it's feeding pattern - a double energy loss whammy for the target subject. It is not a technique we should be encouraging
The aim of denoting 'captive/controlled/baited' etc isn't to bash or denigrate anyone's post or images, it's simply to allow the critique to be given in a proper manner. That's the reason the forum exists - to get feedback and critique on nature photography shots.
As I'm sure you're well aware, there are differences in what a photographer can do when a subject is 100% wild in a 100% uncontrolled situation as compared to when the subject is captive/controlled/baited in - comments such as 'move to left', 'clean up the area', 'put the branch the right way up' and so on can be made for some captive and a lot of controlled situations. If the commentors don't know the situation, then their comments can only be partly relevant. Having said that - there are occasions where it's so obviously a set up even though it hasn't been stated - such as moss/buds etc growing the wrong way on a branch - that it's embarrassing, and doesn't look good
Also, a lot of people see 'Wow' shots being posted and wonder how they where obtained - if it's not obvious that the image was taken with some form of behind-the-scenes help, then people will wrongly think they can just walk up to subjects and take a shot - which may lead to unnecessary disturbance (and I don't just mean with birds).
Tank work can be posted here - it's basically a controlled environment, so should be noted as such. If, instead, you've gone snorkelling in a pond, well...let us know too
Baiting - yes, as Mike says, most will think of roadkill etc and mainly bird of prey type shots (eg Finland+hide etc etc), but it would be useful to disclose even for smaller species such as tits and peckers where they've been baited in using particular foodstuffs. A lot of shots are taken at feeding stations.
Tape luring, as Mike pointed out, can be somewhat contentious and I don't think that it's something that we should actively encourage - either at home or abroad. Having said that, squeeking in is a method that can be used on some mammals. Ideally, 'audio luring' should be disclosed - but I think the poster would really have to use their head as to whether or not to draw attention to it.
It's about courtesy and respect - both for the subject, and for commentors/forum members. As I said, the aim of the forum is to give critique and feedback and to improve our nature photography. If we don't know how a shot was obtained, then it can be hard to give relevant advice or for others to learn from the post.
Points well covered.
I am sure as the Spring arrives, the internet bird photo sites will abound with birds with beaks wide open.As photographer raised in the nest photography days 50 years back I do appreciate how times and attitudes have changed. We had to do it that way- we didn't have the gear there is these days.
I remember the RSPB saying to me many years back.
"We are going off nest photography so if you do it don't show the nest in the picture ".
That about sums it up.
Cheers
JohnR
You said and I quote:
If we don't know how a shot was obtained, then it can be hard to give relevant advice or for others to learn from the post.
Few will volunteer how they took a shot and fewer will ask.
You will be lucky to get everyone to state camera details, let alone how the camera was mounted.
If you have been following some of the threads on the UK forum on NatureScapes, you will know exactly what I mean.
No one, or very few, are in the least bit interest as to how an image is achieved prior to pushing the button.
I beg to differ! I for one try too put as much detail as possible when posting, as do a great many others on this forum. Ok I agree not all do, but a high percentage of posts here have good details!
I include camera settings and support used along with some detail of weather conditions at the time and whether it was attracted to a feeding station or not!
I for one am very interested in how an image has been achieved, and always include camera settings etc when I post.
Rob
Somehow I missed this part of your reply earlier _
" Ideally, 'audio luring' should be disclosed - but I think the poster would really have to use their head as to whether or not to draw attention to it."
I really do think that if baiting is to be disclosed and other aspects of how the shot was attained, then it really should be imperative that tape luring is declared too .I personally think it is far more detrimental to a birds general well being (especially in the breeding season.) than baiting would ever be.
I feel it should be emphasised that to disturb any breeding bird by any means really is illegal in this country. We all know that with todays technology it is so easy to carry around portable playback gear. I know the RSPB do it for density counts etc but that doesn't make it right. It seems to me that in todays "everyones a bird snapper " photographic world , sometimes the desire to get a picture of a particular species overides everything
How far we take it is not just a matter for ourselves to decide.
Thanks
JohnR
"I feel it should be emphasised that to disturb any breeding bird by any means really is illegal in this country."
John, I think you left out "schedule 1" in the above sentence between bredding and bird?
The issue of audio playback is always one that sits on the ethic fence. That said my understanding is that the use of audio only falls foul of the law (W1984) when used for the "taking" of birds only (in the gamekeepers context), hence its use for photography would only be detrimental if it constituted disturbance of a schedule 1 species for which you did not have a license.
Cheers
T
Hi- I know it definately applies to any Schedule I ,as I was involved in prosecutions, but I have a feeling that it is illegal to "willfully disturb" a breeding bird in this country without authorisation.
.( Such as building works halted due to sparrows nesting etc, hedge cutting after April, etc)
I may be wrong however - that above could just be a local thing.
Cheers
John
Edit
Yes Tom you are correct.I just contacted Peterborough It is not illegal to willfully disturb a non Scedule I bird at the nest as long as you don't "destroy the bird or the nest"
Shame but there we are- so its up to the photographer.
Cheers
John
Your quite right, you do supply information with your images, but only concerning your camera settings, and to my mind some are irrelevant as they only pertain to the instant when you pressed the button, and that instant in time has long gone, as has those conditions.
Taking your shot of the “Robin” your techs are:
Body: Nikon D2Xs
Lens: Nikon 200-400mm f/4 VR & TC 17E II
Exposure Mode: Aperture Priority
Metering Mode: Spot
Exposure Comp: 0.0 EV
AF Mode: AF-C
Sensitivity: ISO 200
White Balance: Cloudy
Shutter Speed: 1/8 sec
Aperture: f6.7
Focal Length: 650mm
Tripod: Gitzo G1548
Head: Wimberley Gimbal V2
Full Frame, Slight lift in Levels, USM 30%, 0.2, 0.0
The camera body is irrelevant with regards to the image, any modern camera will do, infact I could post a 10+ year old slide and if I didn’t say, I doubt if you could tell. Particularly as you post at 200k.
The lens, well any lens in this range would do, even a straight 600.
Exposure Mode: Aperture Priority, Metering Mode: Spot , Exposure Comp: 0.0 EV , AF Mode: AF-C, Sensitivity: ISO 200, White Balance: Cloudy. All of this pertains to the instant of exposure, and thus has little real relevance.
Shutter Speed: 1/8 sec, Aperture: f6.7, now this is of interest when commenting on an image. Now look thro’ the threads and see who refers to this information in their comments, suggesting different settings etc.. Very few, if any.
Focal Length: 650mm, covered above.
Tripod: Gitzo G1548, Head: Wimberley Gimbal V2, of some interest but not overly so, other than a mechanical support was used.
If I was a beginner, then I would learn little from your image, except possibly composition, in so far as, what works and what doesn’t.
Your shot of the “Robin”, it could have been taken in your back garden when you were having a beer, the local park, on a refuge, at a feeding station, from a established hide, a car, portable hide, you don’t say, but as a beginner, this is the sort of information that I would be looking for.
Rob
In your Blue Tit shot you state and I quote:
A couple of weeks ago I set up a feeding station on some local land.
Here is my first subject. Thanks for looking,
Rob
Canon 20D | 100-400mm F5.6 @ f/8, 1/125, ISO 400 | Tripod
Taking the Blue Tit shot, did you stalk it, shoot from a car or hide, if the latter what type ???
With basically the same information in your Bittern shot you say:
Had a fantastic visit to Leighton Moss this weekend.
Great views of the Starling roost, and this close encounter with a Bittern.
Canon 20D | 100-400mm F5.6 + 1.4tc @ f/8, 1/200, ISO 400 | Beanbag
Did you take the shot outside the reserve, from a car perhaps, or was it taken on the reserve, from a path or from a hide ?? You don’t say.
In both shots what was the actual foal length. 100, 200, 300 or 400 on the zoom ?? Same settings, but the Bittern is how many times bigger, relative to the Blue Tit ??
Above I said:
No one, or very few, are in the least bit interest as to how an image is achieved prior to pushing the button.
I should have qualified it by also saying “If they were, then they would give the information, or ask about it”.
Paul and Rob, I’m sure you now get the idea. To take the image, you have to get your camera firstly into position, scant attention, if any, is ever supplied and this is what most people, give at least lip service to, wanting to know.
I could take any camera, put it on a 800 with 2x converter, possibly crop it and get the exact same image, as if I used, say, a straight 200. In one instance I’m in the next county, in the other, I’m in a hide, but the image will be near enough, exactly the same.
In many ways, it is what is done before pushing the button that after it, including the cameras settings, that is the most important, particularly for the beginner.
For a different aspect of this thread.
JohnR is correct, when he says that what every means was used in achieving the final image, should be declared.
But I guarantee, that if someone said that they used a tape, then it is like putting your head above the parapet, and then being surprised when its shot off, because it will be. So being conservative with the truth is the rule.
Just look at the comments made about using live mice. There is basically no difference in using mealworms or fish in a tank for kingfishers. You are using a living organism, and yes killing it, in order to achieve your image. Is it better for the mouse to be cleanly killed by that owl, or to be that mealworm, ripped apart whilst still alive, by the Blue Tit.
Surely, it is for the individual to examine their own conscience, and then act accordingly, rather than others to act as self appointed judge, jury and executioner. I personally admire honesty, as against what can only be called hypocrisy.
You're not wrong and it is a country wide thing - all birds are protected at the nest/colony. Hence you can't just remove a house martin's nest from your roof or destroy a sand martin colony in your pile of building sand - while the nests/colony are in use. However, certain species are given extended protection from disturbance for them and their dependent young at or near the nest - they're the S1 species.
It's always worth reading the relevant bits of legislation - a web search will turn plenty of info up, but stick to the info from the official bodies - not the hearsay info that is given on web forums as there's so much confusion and fluff stated.
That is why I said that sometimes it may require the poster to use their head as to whether to disclose - ie draw attention to - something or not. Sometimes it's better to be quiet and not go broadcasting ideas or putting ideas into someones head who hasn't the skill/experience/maturity/responsibility to use the info properly. Again, if someone asks you directly/in private, then you need to consider if they're mature/suitable to tell the information to.
It is about being sensible and responsible.
All I really meant to say in the first place was that in my view tape luring was not a good idea, and if baiting should be declared when posting,then so should using tape.
Yes as I say I know all about the scheduled stuff as Ive had to have several licences it was the everyday birds I was confused about. (And even some of those doing the legislation are a bit wooly to say the least.)
If you knew of some of the things I've seen over the past three years in the name of "bird photography" you would cringe!
Cheers
John
I think the crux of the matter is that it is a publicly viewable forum and, therefore, I for one am reluctant to post specific details of methods. Not because I want to keep them secret, but more because of the things I have seen the ATGANI brigade get up to!
I can see Nick's points, where the 'class' of photography is concerned. i.e. (c) (CE) etc. along with other POV's like the equipment specs being of little use although they do have some relevence.
Lures, of any description, will always court a amount of controversy wherever you go, and some are much less ethical than others. Some, such as live baiting with captive bred prey, should never be used!
Who can say though, that they have never used any sort of lure? I'd guess at no-one as a feeding station/bird table is a form of luring!!
What it all boils down to is 'common sense', something that is lacking in some areas in today's society, and the reason to be careful what you say in a public forum!
If anyone wants to know exactly how I do what I do, just ask......... by e-mail!
Ian
I have read everything with a lot of attention.What made me smile is that this thread was posted just after a few very good picture a little bird.Jalousy I do not know, but that is what triger the thread.
Ialso totaly agreed with Ian when he say
""Lures, of any description, will always court a amount of controversy wherever you go, and some are much less ethical than others. Some, such as live baiting with captive bred prey, should never be used!
Who can say though, that they have never used any sort of lure? I'd guess at no-one as a feeding station/bird table is a form of luring!!"""
Best wishes
Frederic
lol Frederic, you got that wrong! There is no jealousy involved in this topic being raised - the moderators had been discussing re-emphasizing the guidelines for a number of weeks before this was posted. FWIW, the trigger was a couple of postings that overstepped the mark in a very short time - hence this reminder to read the forum guidelines, to have a bit of respect for people and use common sense.
This forum has a good reputation, and the moderators aim to keep it that way with everyones help....
My mystake then.
Best wishes
Frederic