On occasion, I see photos posted where the photographer has more posts than comments. The average person at NPN has far, far more comments than posts. Given that we are allowed to post photos every other day, yet can make unlimited comments on other's work, I find these instances a little disconcerting.
This is very much a participant-driven website and it bothers me to see a few people getting benefits (comments and critiques on their images) without providing the same for others.
How do others feel about this? Any input?
I know the moderators will occasionally encourage more participation for those "taking advantage", but I would encourage others to do so as well.
I have gotten to the point where I no longer comment on someone's images if I see their comment ratio out of whack (other than a new particpant, of course).
I've noticed some people are what I call "hit and run" posters, they post a lot of images, but rarely do they comment on other's images. The comments that they seem to have made are often in reply to some thing some one asked on their own image.
Those who only post and don't make comments on other people's photos, no matter how stunning the image is, isn't going to get a comment from me. Most of the time they don't bother to post the techs, so what does any one learn from that lack of interaction?
I understand that new participants might not yet know the value of critique, but they seem to learn quickly here that it does have value.
Posted by Kent Staubus on April 7, 2008 at 8:12 PM
I tend to work behind the scenes. Once I see a pattern has developed with a new person, I will sometimes send an email in which I talk about the advantages of making comments on other photos. It really makes you analyze a photo and exercise your critical thinking. I also point out that posting comments helps drive traffic which in the long run creates more views for their own photos as well. Thankfully I don't have to make many of these emails, and when I do my goal is one of cooperation.
This has always been an issue at NPN, right from the beginning and comes up every couple of months.
There are a couple of factors at work here. First, a lot of people simply are not comfortable giving the comments. It's tough to do, especially for a lot of images. Sometimes a gallery gets into a rut and it is the same image shot 12 different ways. Maybe a different species or location, but it happens. I see it a lot at the macro gallery where I spend most of my NPN time. How do you say the same thing a different way?
Some people simply don't know how to comment on a picture. That is not meant negatively - we get a lot of beginners here who have never had to think about an image in this way. This is a learned skill, but well worth learning as it carries over in your own photography. I'd love to see more new people comment on images, but that is the teacher in me wanting them to learn and improve their skills.
Some people are concerned about accidently offending an image poster with a negative comment. DON'T WORRY ABOUT THIS!!!! I have been here since about two weeks after the website started and have yet to see any serious arguments arise from this. Different opinions on composition or technique yes, but an argument, no.
There is also a small subset of people who just want their backs patted and "Nice image!" I have a very, very small mental list of them - I simply won't comment or even open up on their work, no matter what is present. My feeling is that if they want praise, they'll get enough of it someone else.
I know I very rarely post images on the galleries. Usually when I do, it is something I am not real sure about, so I'll get a fairly large ratio of negative to positive comments. I'm happy with that. It is why I posted the image in the first place. (Hint to reluctant commentators: If you see my images, take them as an opportunity to practice critiqueing)
Harley: I'll second what Kent said and add that when it comes to choosing the Editor's Pick for the week I tend very strongly to weigh a person's commenting patterns in the decision. In Flora I usually have between 12-20 images worthy of consideration each week. I'll recognize a new poster on rare occasions but for me the EP is a reward not only for impact and technical excellence of the image but for the participation pattern of the posters. In the past few weeks we have had two new members join who have both posted some excellent work. One has a post/comment ration of about 1:1 while the other is about 1:10. The guy making the 10 comments per post gets a much longer and more favorable look from me. >=))>
Having only been here for a week, and being completely new to photo critiqueing, I'll put in my initial feelings on this matter.
For one, I feel that I've gained far more from critiqueing other people's work than I have from posting one of my own photos to be critiqued. Looking at other people's photos really shows me what I look for in a picture, and subsequently helps me identify what I can improve in my own work. Critiqueing has also given me a number of ideas for when I'm out shooting, or when I'm at home processing. In this past week alone, my willingness to experiment with post-processing techniques has expanded enormously because of looking at other peoples' pictures, and subsequently I've brought new life in to some old images of mine that I didn't think was possible. As such, I don't really feel that people are "taking advantage" by just posting, but rather are losing out by just posting and not commenting.
That being said, I would probably tend to avoid leaving comments for people with poor ratios. As with any sort of community, interaction between members is a huge part of what makes it a desireable place to be. If you're just posting and not commenting, you're not really interacting - you're just looking for a pat on the back and some publicity. I'd rather spend my time interacting with other people that want to really interact.
As a newbie, I must also say that breaking into this community is intimidating (as is the case with most communities), which likely plays a role into people's reluctance to critique. As a student, where photography is a very small hobby, it's not easy to critique the work of a professional photographer with 40 years of experience and 15 000 comments - even if there's a seemingly blatant atrocity in their photo. It feels like your a student telling your experienced teacher how and what to teach. Since I've actually done that, perhaps that's why I personally don't have much trouble critiqueing; but for more timid people, I'm sure the stigma poses a real obstacle.
Posted by Lon Overacker on April 8, 2008 at 12:49 AM
Harley,
Thanks for bringing this to the forefront <again.> I agree with you and I will also not comment on images posted by folks who elect not to participate. As Kent suggests, I will occasionally send an email encouraging participation and I also give quite a bit of flexibility to newer members.
As a moderator, I'm with you Bill in terms of how I approach weekly picks. Certainly technical proficiency, emotional impact, creativity, uniqueness all play a major factor in the weekly picks. But when it comes to making a final decision between numerous images, factors such as participation, number of comments (received and given) and whether or not they've won previously all play a part in the decision.
Personally, I don't buy the language, or shyness factor. If you've built up enough confidence to post an an image, then commenting should be easier. Same goes for language... I understand and appreciate some have difficulty with English (Frankly, those who have English as a second or third language fare MUCH BETTER in English than any of us do in in any othe non-English language.)
Time. If you have time to prep an image for posting to the web, you have time to make at least 5 or 10 comments.
I would like to personally thank those newer members who have embraced the community and have jumped right in commenting and participating. I would mention some names, but won't, lest I forget someone... but you know who you are. And we at NPN thank you. Unfortunately, those who need to read this probably don't visit this forum...
Everyone has an opinion on how they respond and feel about an image. Take a few moments and say a few words - even if it means saying you don't like the image. Just play nice in the sandbox...
Bill,
I too am sorry to hear that. If participation is an additional criteria for choosing the "picks," then it should be made known. IMO it's that kind of "unspoken criteria" in photo judging that will drive this website down faster than the non-commenters.
I think what you have to do is to put yourself in that position. I've been in that position in the macro forum here and on other sites as well. Its very hard to relate to people that don't comment or say anything much at all. We all know what its like in person talking to people with no reaction what so ever. Being polite and hanging around is one thing, but your mind is saying, "How the heck do I get away from this lot". If you haven't been in that position, then I would be surprised.
Humans rely on interaction and that does not mean just here, but in personal relationships and business. When it comes to on the net and you can't even see expressions, then we rely on responses. If there is no response, what then. A very quiet forum with no help at all. Time to close the door in that case.
The mods put in time and effort and what you see in the forum, is not all there is to it. They give their time and its nice to have people give feed back. I'll bet the moderators makes more comments than most. To have members that lie still and say nothing or hardly anything, is not fun at all.
So think about the mods and then think about posting and if editors picks are really what we are here for. Don't look at me, I don't get editors picks, by choice. The last one was Cindy's fault
So only in my opinion, don't worry about editors picks at all. Enjoy the sound of the shutter and getting feedback, good and bad.
It is a reality that only a few will provide content, even fewer will provide feedback, and only the rarest of individuals will step up to do the hard work - moderating a forum, for example. I do wish people made more comments, but I know most of us have a greater lust for input than for output. I just accept it. I find it very unfortunate that the brownie points are not being awarded purely for aesthetic reasons. While this is a social system, of sorts, it is primarily a "place" to show pictures and to look at pictures. I think images by the rudest, crudest or most silent participant shoud be given the same disrespect as those by me (the most polite, refined and verbose participant).
Pete D. hope you know I'm kidding .... pull my finger.
Posted by David Bostedo on April 8, 2008 at 10:23 AM
IMO it's that kind of "unspoken criteria" in photo judging that will drive this website down faster than the non-commenters.
Don - I think most people would agree here that the "judging" aspect of this site (the weekly picks) is actually a pretty minor part of the site. The general posting and commenting is the real meat of the site, and what Bill said doesn't apply there. There actually aren't any "spoken" criteria for the weekly pics I don't think, other than it's left up to the forum moderators opinion of what he/she wants to pick for the week.
Being somewhat new to NPN I would like to suggest that we leave things alone. NPN has enjoyed many years of success by NOT monitoring and forcing people to fit into a certain mold.
The comments on how people are chosen for the picks and especially on their inadequate writing skills bother me. This will force people to draw back and not particapate at all.
This happened in a well known photography organization when a certain few felt they knew what was best for all involved. Their membership started to fall off until the situation was recognized and corrected.
I understand there has to be a set of guidelines for any organization to survive. I read the guidelines before I joined and agreed to them. If there are underlining rules they should be posted.
By the way I never could spell worth a dang maybe a spell check would be a great add.
Seems like my comments about my personal criteria have raised a few hackles. The hard part of picking the weekly choice is that it is entirely subjective. I weigh a whole bunch of factors when deciding, participation is just one of them but I make no apology for that. I've seen the Flora forum grow a bunch in the past year and I am convinced it is due to consistent participation by an ever growing number of posters who appreciate each other's work and will take the time to say so. The bottom line is that with increased participation comes increased quality and a higher level of photographic excellence. Encouraging participation overtly or subtly makes for a better forum. Just look at the strides made by the Weekly Challenge forum. It used to be the sad step child of the site but now it's booming because more folks are posting and commenting. Kudos to Carol Hyman for being assertive about her forum. It's a fun place to post and no longer a backwater.
This topic comes up quite often. I guess there is no remedy. I've always mentioned 1:10 ratio should be standard. At least one should try to make 1:3. It is only by commenting that we learn a lot.
I am very saddened to hear that "post/comment ratio" is a criteria for EP selection in the Flora Gallery. Some of my photos have won the weekly EP in the ES&S gallery. I hope that wasn't due to my particiaption in that gallery w.r.t. to posting comments. If so, I'll have to say that I am very embarassed and upset too.
Since joining NPN, I have posted a healthy dose of comments (IMHO), never once feeling the pressure to do so. I admire Jim Erhardt's "no-pressure" style of running NPN. I hope that never changes...
Harley: I'll second what Kent said and add that when it comes to choosing the Editor's Pick for the week I tend very strongly to weigh a person's commenting patterns in the decision.
Didn't realize it was a teachers pet/popularity contest round here. Like Anil, I'm disappointed to hear that.
I would hope that we are rewarding excellence in photography. There is certainly a great deal of that to be found here.
Of course any artist knows that judging is subjective and affected to the tastes of the judges. And I'm sure plenty of us have noticed that the art fairs usually have the same artists in the same positions each year. Its just a fact of life.
I agree with many of the points about commenting. Its important to "read" and critically analyze the photos posted by others in order to help you think critically when you are making your own photos. By not commenting and taking the time to evaluate the photos you are only hurting yourself. But it shouldn't be a requirement. Honestly, there are plenty of "oooo, nice photo" comments to go around here. They aren't helpful, aren't constructive, and don't challenge the recpient of the comment to think harder about artistic or technical skills that they should be trying to develop. They're just a pat on the back, and thats OK too, but are we going to grade the quality of the comments people make too?
And if it should be any issue, my topic to comment ratio in the galleries is almost exactly 1 to 20.
So let me get this straight.. on one hand we are upset because people don't comment enough and on the other we are upset because Bill rewards people who comment a lot !!
Nothing is required, either in commenting or posting. It is very much to each their own.
From my perspective, if a photographer is requesting that NPN'ers comment on his/her work, but they are not willing to comment on the images of others, I personally choose not to accommodate their request. I find it self-centered. They want the benefits of the contributions of everyone else, yet are not willing to contribute themselves. This runs against my view what makes this online community special, so I decide not to comment.
Everyone will have their own take it and that will dictate how they react to it.
There are no "hidden" rules or criteria for the Editor's weekly picks. As mentioned, the process of making the pick is entirely subjective. There are no point scales for composition, exposure, technique or emotional impact. There are no point scales for participation. It is also not a popularity contest. If you read what Bill, Kent and I are saying there are many factors to be considered.
In ES&S there is on average 100-150 new images posted every week. As Bill mentioned, the number of outstanding quality images seemingly increases every week and there may be as many as 50 images worthy of a weekly pick. I select images throughout the week by using the "flag image" feature. I select these images based purely on photographic merrit. The only criteria at this point is that the poster must be a member of NPN (that's non-subjective.) At the end of the week when I have to make a pick, I review those 30-50 images again and cut the list down to a half dozen or so.... again, by photography standards only. No names, no comment ratios, pure photography.
So, in the end lets say I have 3 images - each unique and impressive in their own right. Beautiful images with an impact, a story, very creative, etc. Subjective. Which one do you pick? Now, for those who think it's a popularity contest or some hidden criteria, what would you do? How would you decide? Who's going to put more value in to a dramatic coastal sunset with breaking, silky waves OR with a subdued, carefully composed intimate image of grasses in a field, or a high-key b&w? Subjective, personal choice of the moderator.
So, back to Bill's original considerations. You have two equally impressive images and deserving of a weekly pick. It's subjective and you're free to choose either one, but only one.
How would you decide? Would you perhaps consider someone's participation? Perhaps they're a new member who's never been picked before?
I've met several people from this forum and communicated via email with lots more and I can say for certainty that I haven't picked any of them yet. I would say in person that I'm a pretty unassuming guy; personable, but not boistrous; humble but not arrogant. I accepted this postion from Dan because I like the community, the people, the interactions, and of course the wide variety of beautiful photography. We're all different with different personalities and expectations of this forum.
This reminds me of the years I spent in a camera club. It was always competitive to some, and yes I tracked my points, won "image of the year," etc., etc. But I was never one who was bothered that my image didn't get picked by the judge. Many would rumble quietly second guessing the judge and why this image was picked over that image. That's one of the reasons I faded away from the camera club scene. I didn't see the point in worrying about. Now I find myself being a judge and understanding what they went thru.
So I hope this wasn't to harsh. In the end, I hope you can now understand that all those intagibles are not criteria, but assist in making tie-breaker decisions. If anyone truly has any concerns with this I would be happy to exchange some emails with you.
Hmmm... maybe I'll regret saying this, but Bill's approach appeals to my sensibilities just fine. There are no published criteria for the Editor's picks, aside from having to be an NPN member. So why shouldn't something non-photo related be considered?
Fact is, I think the vast majority of people here have their own subjective criteria in deciding when to comment, and on which photos. It can't be random chance that newer photogs who are clearly on the early part of the learning curve tend to get far fewer views and far fewer comments than those who are better known, and producing higher quality work.
If everything was fair, balanced and objective, the newest guy or gal on the block would get a similar number of views - and arguably more critiques - than the better known of our friends here. But that's obviously not the case as a quick check of any IC gallery will reveal.
I'm okay with the argument that it's not appropriate to consider comment ratios when selecting EPs, but then we should also hold ourselves accountable to exhibit the same level of "objectivity" in our own daily interactions here. Otherwise, it smells a lot like a double standard.
Posted by Basil Greber on April 8, 2008 at 5:44 PM
I haven't read all answers (will do that... well... euh... next week maybe ). What I want to add is that I actually prefer less comments if they are of higher quality. Well, not less comments than now, but more in the quality over quantity sense. I like it that some comments are critical, and that some people even go through the hassle of looking at a re-post and giving a second opinion on it. And I like it that other than on some discussion boards, a mis-focused, dull, and boring image won't be greeted with "great shot", "great sharpness" and "what camera did you use" comments.
So, bottom line, a lot of comments is great, but receiving input that's really valuable is just as important.
I went through 26 posts of the first page of ES&S just now. There are only 2 posts with 1:1 comment posters and 2 posts whose authors have more topics than comments. I guess I don't see this as a rampant disease tearing apart the NPN community.
From my perspective, if a photographer is requesting that NPN'ers comment on his/her work, but they are not willing to comment on the images of others, I personally choose not to accommodate their request. I find it self-centered. They want the benefits of the contributions of everyone else, yet are not willing to contribute themselves. This runs against my view what makes this online community special, so I decide not to comment.
That's fine. I often decide not to lump another "oooohhh Pretty" on top of the pile of 35 and try to write a comment to those where I think it might be helpful. If that person should have a ratio out of whack, so be it.
Different strokes.
I agree that comments are the meat of this site, but like Basil I think they're more valuable if they contain a useful bit of information. That makes up what? 15% of the comments.
If everything was fair, balanced and objective, the newest guy or gal on the block would get a similar number of views - and arguably more critiques - than the better known of our friends here. But that's obviously not the case as a quick check of any IC gallery will reveal.
There is a basic truth in this. Its just how things go. And people have commented about how things with more colorful thumbnails get more comments or views than pastels or grays. Again, its how things go. People associate with the familiar and are attracted to brilliant color or high contrast (at least initially). Its how branding and advertising work. Grab your attention for 1/2 second and they have a chance to sell you a product.
Its nice to get comments on your work, especially positive feedback, but there's no sense going on a witch hunt on those who don't comment enough.
Every week, the NPN moderators pick one member image from each of the seven image critique galleries plus the Weekly Challenge gallery based on the following criteria -
Technical execution
Aesthetic quality (composition, use of light, visual impact, etc.)
Originality
Compliance to gallery guidelines or weekly challenge theme.
What Jim just said above - that is the official criteria for the weekly picks.
Lon's comments a few posts up provides insight on how incredibly difficult it is at times to select just one photo. Make no mistake about it - being a moderator on this or any other site is one heck of a thankless job, yet it's not uncommon to see moderators put their heart and soul into it nonetheless. I will never take any of them to task for how they make their weekly pick decisions because at one time, I did them all myself and know first-hand what a difficult job it is.
Back to the original post, yes I agree it would be better if everyone commented more. But as already pointed out, this is not something you can compell someone to do, nor would I want to. Everyone is free to participate at whatever level they feel comfortable with - and I see no reason to change that!
BTW, I just started including a link to this in the greeting email we send to new all members.
Thanks for pointing this out. You are absolutely correct.
Please consider what myself and Bill actually wrote. Bill said: "personal criteria." I said: "There are no "hidden" rules or criteria for the Editor's weekly picks." I'm not sure how one can derive that there is NO criteria for the weekly pick from any comments made. But since NPN policy is being quoted, let's dig a bit deeper.
One of the criteria quoted above is "Compliance to gallery guidelines." correct?
In reviewing that page you will find the following "guideline:"
We invite you to post your comments on photos! Even if you do not feel "qualified" to critique an image, telling the photographer what it is that you like (or dislike) about an image in your own words is helpful and an important part of the image critique process! Learn more about The Art of Image Critique.
We recommend that you contact other image critique gallery participants using their email link to request comments on your photos.
NPN Staff Suggestion - For every photo you post, comment on at least five!
Of course every guideline is open to some loose interpretations and it indeed says "suggestion." My personal interpretation is that this suggestion applies to all members, not just staff.
But in the spirit of an open, community based internet forum, where participation is every bit as important as an image standing on it's own, I think the case has been made that yes, participation may be a criteria for the weekly pick.
And if you all would take the time to read the comments carefully you would understand that there are many factors; and for obvious reasons the quality of the photograph; the aesthetics, etc. is THE major factor - no one ever said it wasn't. Other factors are considered in the cases of picking between two or more equally qualified images. I guess I'm at a loss as to why that's so hard to understand.
As a newbie, I must also say that breaking into this community is intimidating (as is the case with most communities), which likely plays a role into people's reluctance to critique. As a student, where photography is a very small hobby, it's not easy to critique the work of a professional photographer with 40 years of experience and 15 000 comments - even if there's a seemingly blatant atrocity in their photo. It feels like your a student telling your experienced teacher how and what to teach. Since I've actually done that, perhaps that's why I personally don't have much trouble critiqueing; but for more timid people, I'm sure the stigma poses a real obstacle.
I think the most important post in this thread is from Kenn Leonhardt in all honesty. Everyone reading this should read what he wrote and think very carefully about it. Go back up and read it.
Kenn, I would love to see more like you. Its a pleasure and believe me, a lot of us feel exactly the same way and at one point, that was me as well
Danny.
Posted by Kent Staubus on April 8, 2008 at 8:43 PM
I am very saddened to hear that "post/comment ratio" is a criteria for EP selection in the Flora Gallery. Some of my photos have won the weekly EP in the ES&S gallery. I hope that wasn't due to my particiaption in that gallery w.r.t. to posting comments. If so, I'll have to say that I am very embarassed and upset too. (Anil)
There is no "popularity" contest. When Michelle and I go over the weekly photos, I don't even look at the names. I only look at the photo. Michelle comes up with a list of about 8--10 of what she felt were the best shots, which I then look over several times and pick one. I look at the image first, then check to be sure it's from an NPN member. Sometimes I am faced with two excellent photos. It's IMPOSSIBLE to say one is better than the other because they are so good. I could do something like flip a coin, but instead it is THEN that I will look at other factors such photos/comment ratio. If one person posted 200 photos and has only commented 10 times, and the other has posted 90 photos but has taken the time to help others on the forum by posting 2,000 comments, do you seriously think I'm being unfair? I shouldn't be taking it into account that one person has done so much to help others and the other hasn't?
I can assure everyone that picks are made with the focus put on quality of the image. That is always first and I have never sent a pick to Jim that I didn't feel was the best for the week. Favorable comments made by others about the photo can also be taken into account, but note I have chosen photos with only a couple of comments. i considered them overlooked gems! What I do NOT do is look at the post/comment ratio and just go by that. And note when I do use it as just one factor for a tie breaker, I'm NOT looking at total number of comments rather than the ratio. A new person won't have that many comments racked up yet and it would be unfair to them to just simply look at total # of comments. You can be sure I do my very best to be fair. Sometimes the photos are so dead even that I have to come up with a way to select only one and send to Jim. Would you rather I roll a dice or flip a coin? That's about what it would come down to. So Anil, if your photo was selected as the Editor's Pick, you are assured that we thought none was better.
Kent in SD
Posted by Dan Borzynski on April 8, 2008 at 10:32 PM
With regards to the editors picks - I have never seen an editors pick which I didn't think was worthy of the selection. Sometimes, I may have made a different selection, but that is more of a personal preference than any real disagreement with the choice made.
So what is the moderator supposed to do at the end of the week, when you have three first rate images, none of which stand above the other two? One is from a new person, one from someone who has a lot of contributions to the forums and one who has only posted a lot of images? Flipping a coin may be just as fair as any other method, but at least there is some thought put into the process. I don't see it as a popularity contest, but the decision still needs to be made.
I really have doubts that Guy Tal's images would be selected as an EP simply because he has posted more replies than half of the rest of the site combined. Or Mike Maples. Or Ronnie Gaubert. These guys produce first rate images whose work will always be in the running for an EP.
I have been there as a ex-ESS moderator and know first hand how tough it is to pick a weekly EP. I only have the utmost respect for those that provide this daunting task. I was just taken aback by the inclusion of the number of comments as a selection point. Just caught me by surprise. It is getting harder, I agree to single out that perfect image, with the exceptional images being posted at an astonishing rate. To me every image is deserving, comments or not.
Maybe Jim E. it might be a good time to dust off the mentor program.
Thats why you make them moderators Dan. Otherwise you would have 51 images from Ronnie a year in the editors picks or 52 if you count image of the year.
Very thoughtful comments from all. I'd like to add that human nature is no different here than anywhere else in the world. Cindy's and Jim Erhardt's comments speak to this issue.
I, personally, do not post photos with the idea of competing for an EP. I am thrilled when/if I get one, though. And I don't comment based on "pressure" to do so. What matters most to me is that I can offer an opinion on images and receive them on mine. I want to learn, and I'd like to help other people learn. Rarely is a photo posted at NPN that is a total washout. Every photo has something good about it and something that can be improved. When it's hard to put words to what works and what doesn't in a particular image, sometimes I can devote the energy to seriously thinking about it, and sometimes I can't.
Back to the "human nature" factor... Generally, imho: it's better to let people participate in whatever way they feel comfortable and to forgive all the rest; when commenting, say something encouraging, say something honest about what to improve, and finish with more encouragement; when posting in an image critique gallery, expect to have the image critiqued.
I don't want to beat a dead horse, but no where did I ever state that number of comments was a factor in my determinations. I did say "commenting PATTERNS" and "participation PATTERNS". Those are indicators of attitudinal values that I think are worthy of consideration in tie-breaker situations.
Bill. As an active participant in flora, I would like to personally thank you for all your hard work. Just in the year or so since I've been here, flora has tripled in participants and the quality of the images has soared. A lot of the forum's success is due to your high standard in judging, your participation, and your open-mindedness in fostering unusual techniques and giving credit for imagination. Your extra comments to those who had images worthy, but not picked, is another innovation that has great appeal.
Usually a judge does not know who the maker is, but they still must use some personal logic as a tie breaker. With me it is impact... whether mood, feeling, action vs. still, color combination or just plain difficulty in getting the shot. Each to their own technique and my thanks for their willingness to do the job.
Now, back to the original post.... what was it? Oh, yes, post/comment ratio... as always it is a matter of time for me. As to being timid about comments to certain posters, my thought is.... if you/they are posting images on this site you are playing with "the big guys" and must be able to receive the critiques and comments with grace and accept them as helpful suggestions which should be given serious consideration.
Always interesting discussion when this topic comes up. I'll just add my 2c: I can't recall a situation on ES&S where there was one clear winner at the end of the week. There are always a few to consider that are equally excellent technically and aesthetically and other considerations need to be applied to break the tie.
The Editor's Pick is not a contest, it is a subjective way for the moderators and editor to recognize what they consider exceptional work and promote the NPN mission. Once the technical/aesthetic criteria is met (admittedly also a subjective a choice,) we also consider factors like participation. If you check the site's main page, it clearly states that NPN is a cooperative network which means it is a place to share, learn, and interact.
Also, as Jim Jirka pointed out, compliance with gallery guidelines is clearly listed as a factor to be considered for the picks. At least for ES&S these guidelines are clearly stated at the top of the gallery page:
"As part of the online community of Nature Photographers Network; the success of this gallery, as well as the quality of feedback you will receive, greatly depend on active participation from members. Whether posting your own images or just browsing, please take some time to comment on the images posted."
Guy
Posted by Gary Crabbe on April 10, 2008 at 1:43 PM
I have a "personal & self-imposed" rule about not posting an image unless I have time to comment on about 10 images, and I always comment on the 10 posted in immediate proximity, regardless of who took the shoot, or how good or bad. To me, that feels "fair & balanced", and works for the comment kharma when I post my own photos.
I've been too busy, not to post a photo for my own sake, but to make the type of detailed and meaningful comments on others images. Hence, you haven't seen any posts of my pics, not because I don't want to post my own photo, but because I can't give due time to your photos.
I don't expect, nor would I judge anyone for following / not following my 'rule', and I'm personally glad there are no official "have to" rules.
I'm sad I don't have more time to do more than just lurk, but (especially for ESS) there's still no better nature photo forum on the net to either lurk or participate.
Discussion
40 repliesThis is very much a participant-driven website and it bothers me to see a few people getting benefits (comments and critiques on their images) without providing the same for others.
How do others feel about this? Any input?
I know the moderators will occasionally encourage more participation for those "taking advantage", but I would encourage others to do so as well.
I have gotten to the point where I no longer comment on someone's images if I see their comment ratio out of whack (other than a new particpant, of course).
I've noticed some people are what I call "hit and run" posters, they post a lot of images, but rarely do they comment on other's images. The comments that they seem to have made are often in reply to some thing some one asked on their own image.
Those who only post and don't make comments on other people's photos, no matter how stunning the image is, isn't going to get a comment from me. Most of the time they don't bother to post the techs, so what does any one learn from that lack of interaction?
I understand that new participants might not yet know the value of critique, but they seem to learn quickly here that it does have value.
Kent in SD
There are a couple of factors at work here. First, a lot of people simply are not comfortable giving the comments. It's tough to do, especially for a lot of images. Sometimes a gallery gets into a rut and it is the same image shot 12 different ways. Maybe a different species or location, but it happens. I see it a lot at the macro gallery where I spend most of my NPN time. How do you say the same thing a different way?
Some people simply don't know how to comment on a picture. That is not meant negatively - we get a lot of beginners here who have never had to think about an image in this way. This is a learned skill, but well worth learning as it carries over in your own photography. I'd love to see more new people comment on images, but that is the teacher in me wanting them to learn and improve their skills.
Some people are concerned about accidently offending an image poster with a negative comment. DON'T WORRY ABOUT THIS!!!! I have been here since about two weeks after the website started and have yet to see any serious arguments arise from this. Different opinions on composition or technique yes, but an argument, no.
There is also a small subset of people who just want their backs patted and "Nice image!" I have a very, very small mental list of them - I simply won't comment or even open up on their work, no matter what is present. My feeling is that if they want praise, they'll get enough of it someone else.
I know I very rarely post images on the galleries. Usually when I do, it is something I am not real sure about, so I'll get a fairly large ratio of negative to positive comments. I'm happy with that. It is why I posted the image in the first place. (Hint to reluctant commentators: If you see my images, take them as an opportunity to practice critiqueing)
There are and have been a few, not that many that do have a language problem. Don't think thats much of an issue though.
I've seen a few picked up about it and some how, it doesn't sink in. People just need to comment so that others can learn from what they see.
Then there are some like me, that are just very shy, bashful and timid
Danny.
Really sorry to hear that.
For one, I feel that I've gained far more from critiqueing other people's work than I have from posting one of my own photos to be critiqued. Looking at other people's photos really shows me what I look for in a picture, and subsequently helps me identify what I can improve in my own work. Critiqueing has also given me a number of ideas for when I'm out shooting, or when I'm at home processing. In this past week alone, my willingness to experiment with post-processing techniques has expanded enormously because of looking at other peoples' pictures, and subsequently I've brought new life in to some old images of mine that I didn't think was possible. As such, I don't really feel that people are "taking advantage" by just posting, but rather are losing out by just posting and not commenting.
That being said, I would probably tend to avoid leaving comments for people with poor ratios. As with any sort of community, interaction between members is a huge part of what makes it a desireable place to be. If you're just posting and not commenting, you're not really interacting - you're just looking for a pat on the back and some publicity. I'd rather spend my time interacting with other people that want to really interact.
As a newbie, I must also say that breaking into this community is intimidating (as is the case with most communities), which likely plays a role into people's reluctance to critique. As a student, where photography is a very small hobby, it's not easy to critique the work of a professional photographer with 40 years of experience and 15 000 comments - even if there's a seemingly blatant atrocity in their photo. It feels like your a student telling your experienced teacher how and what to teach. Since I've actually done that, perhaps that's why I personally don't have much trouble critiqueing; but for more timid people, I'm sure the stigma poses a real obstacle.
Thanks for bringing this to the forefront <again.> I agree with you and I will also not comment on images posted by folks who elect not to participate. As Kent suggests, I will occasionally send an email encouraging participation and I also give quite a bit of flexibility to newer members.
As a moderator, I'm with you Bill in terms of how I approach weekly picks. Certainly technical proficiency, emotional impact, creativity, uniqueness all play a major factor in the weekly picks. But when it comes to making a final decision between numerous images, factors such as participation, number of comments (received and given) and whether or not they've won previously all play a part in the decision.
Personally, I don't buy the language, or shyness factor. If you've built up enough confidence to post an an image, then commenting should be easier. Same goes for language... I understand and appreciate some have difficulty with English (Frankly, those who have English as a second or third language fare MUCH BETTER in English than any of us do in in any othe non-English language.)
Time. If you have time to prep an image for posting to the web, you have time to make at least 5 or 10 comments.
I would like to personally thank those newer members who have embraced the community and have jumped right in commenting and participating. I would mention some names, but won't, lest I forget someone... but you know who you are. And we at NPN thank you. Unfortunately, those who need to read this probably don't visit this forum...
Everyone has an opinion on how they respond and feel about an image. Take a few moments and say a few words - even if it means saying you don't like the image. Just play nice in the sandbox...
Lon
I too am sorry to hear that. If participation is an additional criteria for choosing the "picks," then it should be made known. IMO it's that kind of "unspoken criteria" in photo judging that will drive this website down faster than the non-commenters.
Humans rely on interaction and that does not mean just here, but in personal relationships and business. When it comes to on the net and you can't even see expressions, then we rely on responses. If there is no response, what then. A very quiet forum with no help at all. Time to close the door in that case.
The mods put in time and effort and what you see in the forum, is not all there is to it. They give their time and its nice to have people give feed back. I'll bet the moderators makes more comments than most. To have members that lie still and say nothing or hardly anything, is not fun at all.
So think about the mods and then think about posting and if editors picks are really what we are here for. Don't look at me, I don't get editors picks, by choice. The last one was Cindy's fault
So only in my opinion, don't worry about editors picks at all. Enjoy the sound of the shutter and getting feedback, good and bad.
Danny.
Pete D. hope you know I'm kidding .... pull my finger.
Don - I think most people would agree here that the "judging" aspect of this site (the weekly picks) is actually a pretty minor part of the site. The general posting and commenting is the real meat of the site, and what Bill said doesn't apply there. There actually aren't any "spoken" criteria for the weekly pics I don't think, other than it's left up to the forum moderators opinion of what he/she wants to pick for the week.
The comments on how people are chosen for the picks and especially on their inadequate writing skills bother me. This will force people to draw back and not particapate at all.
This happened in a well known photography organization when a certain few felt they knew what was best for all involved. Their membership started to fall off until the situation was recognized and corrected.
I understand there has to be a set of guidelines for any organization to survive. I read the guidelines before I joined and agreed to them. If there are underlining rules they should be posted.
By the way I never could spell worth a dang maybe a spell check would be a great add.
Since joining NPN, I have posted a healthy dose of comments (IMHO), never once feeling the pressure to do so. I admire Jim Erhardt's "no-pressure" style of running NPN. I hope that never changes...
Didn't realize it was a teachers pet/popularity contest round here. Like Anil, I'm disappointed to hear that.
I would hope that we are rewarding excellence in photography. There is certainly a great deal of that to be found here.
Of course any artist knows that judging is subjective and affected to the tastes of the judges. And I'm sure plenty of us have noticed that the art fairs usually have the same artists in the same positions each year. Its just a fact of life.
I agree with many of the points about commenting. Its important to "read" and critically analyze the photos posted by others in order to help you think critically when you are making your own photos. By not commenting and taking the time to evaluate the photos you are only hurting yourself. But it shouldn't be a requirement. Honestly, there are plenty of "oooo, nice photo" comments to go around here. They aren't helpful, aren't constructive, and don't challenge the recpient of the comment to think harder about artistic or technical skills that they should be trying to develop. They're just a pat on the back, and thats OK too, but are we going to grade the quality of the comments people make too?
And if it should be any issue, my topic to comment ratio in the galleries is almost exactly 1 to 20.
Mel-
I am confused
From my perspective, if a photographer is requesting that NPN'ers comment on his/her work, but they are not willing to comment on the images of others, I personally choose not to accommodate their request. I find it self-centered. They want the benefits of the contributions of everyone else, yet are not willing to contribute themselves. This runs against my view what makes this online community special, so I decide not to comment.
Everyone will have their own take it and that will dictate how they react to it.
In ES&S there is on average 100-150 new images posted every week. As Bill mentioned, the number of outstanding quality images seemingly increases every week and there may be as many as 50 images worthy of a weekly pick. I select images throughout the week by using the "flag image" feature. I select these images based purely on photographic merrit. The only criteria at this point is that the poster must be a member of NPN (that's non-subjective.) At the end of the week when I have to make a pick, I review those 30-50 images again and cut the list down to a half dozen or so.... again, by photography standards only. No names, no comment ratios, pure photography.
So, in the end lets say I have 3 images - each unique and impressive in their own right. Beautiful images with an impact, a story, very creative, etc. Subjective. Which one do you pick? Now, for those who think it's a popularity contest or some hidden criteria, what would you do? How would you decide? Who's going to put more value in to a dramatic coastal sunset with breaking, silky waves OR with a subdued, carefully composed intimate image of grasses in a field, or a high-key b&w? Subjective, personal choice of the moderator.
So, back to Bill's original considerations. You have two equally impressive images and deserving of a weekly pick. It's subjective and you're free to choose either one, but only one.
How would you decide? Would you perhaps consider someone's participation? Perhaps they're a new member who's never been picked before?
I've met several people from this forum and communicated via email with lots more and I can say for certainty that I haven't picked any of them yet. I would say in person that I'm a pretty unassuming guy; personable, but not boistrous; humble but not arrogant. I accepted this postion from Dan because I like the community, the people, the interactions, and of course the wide variety of beautiful photography. We're all different with different personalities and expectations of this forum.
This reminds me of the years I spent in a camera club. It was always competitive to some, and yes I tracked my points, won "image of the year," etc., etc. But I was never one who was bothered that my image didn't get picked by the judge. Many would rumble quietly second guessing the judge and why this image was picked over that image. That's one of the reasons I faded away from the camera club scene. I didn't see the point in worrying about. Now I find myself being a judge and understanding what they went thru.
So I hope this wasn't to harsh. In the end, I hope you can now understand that all those intagibles are not criteria, but assist in making tie-breaker decisions. If anyone truly has any concerns with this I would be happy to exchange some emails with you.
Cheers,
Lon
But, seriously, it is good to hear the passion people have about NPN and the importance they place on comments.
We need contributions of both sorts. I never even noticed the topics & reply data until someone brought it up before.
Pete D.
Fact is, I think the vast majority of people here have their own subjective criteria in deciding when to comment, and on which photos. It can't be random chance that newer photogs who are clearly on the early part of the learning curve tend to get far fewer views and far fewer comments than those who are better known, and producing higher quality work.
If everything was fair, balanced and objective, the newest guy or gal on the block would get a similar number of views - and arguably more critiques - than the better known of our friends here. But that's obviously not the case as a quick check of any IC gallery will reveal.
I'm okay with the argument that it's not appropriate to consider comment ratios when selecting EPs, but then we should also hold ourselves accountable to exhibit the same level of "objectivity" in our own daily interactions here. Otherwise, it smells a lot like a double standard.
So, bottom line, a lot of comments is great, but receiving input that's really valuable is just as important.
Basil
Dave
That's fine. I often decide not to lump another "oooohhh Pretty" on top of the pile of 35 and try to write a comment to those where I think it might be helpful. If that person should have a ratio out of whack, so be it.
Different strokes.
I agree that comments are the meat of this site, but like Basil I think they're more valuable if they contain a useful bit of information. That makes up what? 15% of the comments.
There is a basic truth in this. Its just how things go. And people have commented about how things with more colorful thumbnails get more comments or views than pastels or grays. Again, its how things go. People associate with the familiar and are attracted to brilliant color or high contrast (at least initially). Its how branding and advertising work. Grab your attention for 1/2 second and they have a chance to sell you a product.
Its nice to get comments on your work, especially positive feedback, but there's no sense going on a witch hunt on those who don't comment enough.
Every week, the NPN moderators pick one member image from each of the seven image critique galleries plus the Weekly Challenge gallery based on the following criteria -
Technical execution
Aesthetic quality (composition, use of light, visual impact, etc.)
Originality
Compliance to gallery guidelines or weekly challenge theme.
Lon's comments a few posts up provides insight on how incredibly difficult it is at times to select just one photo. Make no mistake about it - being a moderator on this or any other site is one heck of a thankless job, yet it's not uncommon to see moderators put their heart and soul into it nonetheless. I will never take any of them to task for how they make their weekly pick decisions because at one time, I did them all myself and know first-hand what a difficult job it is.
Back to the original post, yes I agree it would be better if everyone commented more. But as already pointed out, this is not something you can compell someone to do, nor would I want to. Everyone is free to participate at whatever level they feel comfortable with - and I see no reason to change that!
BTW, I just started including a link to this in the greeting email we send to new all members.
Thanks for pointing this out. You are absolutely correct.
Please consider what myself and Bill actually wrote. Bill said: "personal criteria." I said: "There are no "hidden" rules or criteria for the Editor's weekly picks." I'm not sure how one can derive that there is NO criteria for the weekly pick from any comments made. But since NPN policy is being quoted, let's dig a bit deeper.
One of the criteria quoted above is "Compliance to gallery guidelines." correct?
In reviewing that page you will find the following "guideline:"
Of course every guideline is open to some loose interpretations and it indeed says "suggestion." My personal interpretation is that this suggestion applies to all members, not just staff.
But in the spirit of an open, community based internet forum, where participation is every bit as important as an image standing on it's own, I think the case has been made that yes, participation may be a criteria for the weekly pick.
And if you all would take the time to read the comments carefully you would understand that there are many factors; and for obvious reasons the quality of the photograph; the aesthetics, etc. is THE major factor - no one ever said it wasn't. Other factors are considered in the cases of picking between two or more equally qualified images. I guess I'm at a loss as to why that's so hard to understand.
Lon
I think the most important post in this thread is from Kenn Leonhardt in all honesty. Everyone reading this should read what he wrote and think very carefully about it. Go back up and read it.
Kenn, I would love to see more like you. Its a pleasure and believe me, a lot of us feel exactly the same way and at one point, that was me as well
Danny.
There is no "popularity" contest. When Michelle and I go over the weekly photos, I don't even look at the names. I only look at the photo. Michelle comes up with a list of about 8--10 of what she felt were the best shots, which I then look over several times and pick one. I look at the image first, then check to be sure it's from an NPN member. Sometimes I am faced with two excellent photos. It's IMPOSSIBLE to say one is better than the other because they are so good. I could do something like flip a coin, but instead it is THEN that I will look at other factors such photos/comment ratio. If one person posted 200 photos and has only commented 10 times, and the other has posted 90 photos but has taken the time to help others on the forum by posting 2,000 comments, do you seriously think I'm being unfair? I shouldn't be taking it into account that one person has done so much to help others and the other hasn't?
I can assure everyone that picks are made with the focus put on quality of the image. That is always first and I have never sent a pick to Jim that I didn't feel was the best for the week. Favorable comments made by others about the photo can also be taken into account, but note I have chosen photos with only a couple of comments. i considered them overlooked gems! What I do NOT do is look at the post/comment ratio and just go by that. And note when I do use it as just one factor for a tie breaker, I'm NOT looking at total number of comments rather than the ratio. A new person won't have that many comments racked up yet and it would be unfair to them to just simply look at total # of comments. You can be sure I do my very best to be fair. Sometimes the photos are so dead even that I have to come up with a way to select only one and send to Jim. Would you rather I roll a dice or flip a coin? That's about what it would come down to. So Anil, if your photo was selected as the Editor's Pick, you are assured that we thought none was better.
Kent in SD
So what is the moderator supposed to do at the end of the week, when you have three first rate images, none of which stand above the other two? One is from a new person, one from someone who has a lot of contributions to the forums and one who has only posted a lot of images? Flipping a coin may be just as fair as any other method, but at least there is some thought put into the process. I don't see it as a popularity contest, but the decision still needs to be made.
I really have doubts that Guy Tal's images would be selected as an EP simply because he has posted more replies than half of the rest of the site combined. Or Mike Maples. Or Ronnie Gaubert. These guys produce first rate images whose work will always be in the running for an EP.
Maybe Jim E. it might be a good time to dust off the mentor program.
I, personally, do not post photos with the idea of competing for an EP. I am thrilled when/if I get one, though.
Back to the "human nature" factor... Generally, imho: it's better to let people participate in whatever way they feel comfortable and to forgive all the rest; when commenting, say something encouraging, say something honest about what to improve, and finish with more encouragement; when posting in an image critique gallery, expect to have the image critiqued.
Best regards to all here...
Usually a judge does not know who the maker is, but they still must use some personal logic as a tie breaker. With me it is impact... whether mood, feeling, action vs. still, color combination or just plain difficulty in getting the shot. Each to their own technique and my thanks for their willingness to do the job.
Now, back to the original post.... what was it? Oh, yes, post/comment ratio... as always it is a matter of time for me. As to being timid about comments to certain posters, my thought is.... if you/they are posting images on this site you are playing with "the big guys" and must be able to receive the critiques and comments with grace and accept them as helpful suggestions which should be given serious consideration.
The Editor's Pick is not a contest, it is a subjective way for the moderators and editor to recognize what they consider exceptional work and promote the NPN mission. Once the technical/aesthetic criteria is met (admittedly also a subjective a choice,) we also consider factors like participation. If you check the site's main page, it clearly states that NPN is a cooperative network which means it is a place to share, learn, and interact.
Also, as Jim Jirka pointed out, compliance with gallery guidelines is clearly listed as a factor to be considered for the picks. At least for ES&S these guidelines are clearly stated at the top of the gallery page:
"As part of the online community of Nature Photographers Network; the success of this gallery, as well as the quality of feedback you will receive, greatly depend on active participation from members. Whether posting your own images or just browsing, please take some time to comment on the images posted."
Guy
I've been too busy, not to post a photo for my own sake, but to make the type of detailed and meaningful comments on others images. Hence, you haven't seen any posts of my pics, not because I don't want to post my own photo, but because I can't give due time to your photos.
I don't expect, nor would I judge anyone for following / not following my 'rule', and I'm personally glad there are no official "have to" rules.
I'm sad I don't have more time to do more than just lurk, but (especially for ESS) there's still no better nature photo forum on the net to either lurk or participate.