Most people shoot at todays standard 4x6 aspext ratio...
Framing companys offer "standard" framing at like 16"x20" openings when I can sell 12"x18" prints all day long if people didnt get feedback from framing companys that say "that isnt a standard size" and proceede to charge people an arm and a leg for framing and matting a (now a days) standard size print.
Do any of you selling your work run into this problem at all?
I shoot for the frame I have in front of my eye, and it REALLY messes with the composition when cropping to the diffrent aspect ratio.
Now...I realize I can get a viewfinder that shows what the crop would look like, but then I am throwing away megapixels that I paid for and use for larger prints.
I get the feeling we are adhearing to old standards and running into hurdles just because the framing companys are comfortable offering what they have in the past instead of embracing new standards.
And the standards are world wide (for the sensor size) as I know a D300 or a 40D in Japan has the same sensor as shipped to the USA.
Do any of you know a reasonably priced framing company that embraces currently reflected aspect ratio framing instead of calling it "non standard" and charging so much you have to sell the back 40 of the farm to afford it?
Sorry for the rant....but I am just wondering if I need to start a framing company that will create standards in their inventory that match what most people are shooting these days....lol.
Roman
Posted by Rick Lundh on April 13, 2008 at 12:39 PM
What freaks people out at the frame shop isn't the fact that the print isn't a standard frame size. It's the word "custom". That increases the cost by 4-10 fold. If a customer is wanting a print, but researches the frame cost first...that inhibits the sale sometimes.
I've always just used the standard frame sizes to gage my final dimensions of the print. I may have to sometimes slight stretch the image to make it fit just right, but wont do so if it makes it noticibly skewed.
At art shows/fairs, it goes a long way when I tell the customer that this is a standard print size and they can go to any frame shope and pick one out to take it home and hang it on the wall today...rather than waiting 2 weeks or more for the custom framing.
Posted by Ned Fenimore on April 13, 2008 at 2:39 PM
Have you thought of getting frames at Aaron brothers? A few times a year they have 2 for one sales, and I really like their inventory. They frame up my work nicely, and I really like how they look. Plus, the sizes "we" like - the full frame sizes are readily available their in all sizes and styles..
Posted by Mark Windom on April 13, 2008 at 2:52 PM
When I was doing art shows I was cutting my own mats and frames which allowed me to be my customers' frame shop. If they wanted a size other than what I had available in the booth they ordered it from me rather than taking it to a frame shop. I never sold just prints, they were either matted or matted/framed. If they wanted a frame I didn't carry then they bought the matted print and took it from there. Most of my customers realized that frame shops were "overpriced" and were willing to work with me directly.
I'm just really glad that I'm out of that part of the business now.
I get cheaper prices than that from West Coast Frames. They do custom framing for me at quite a nice price, but I have a business license. People who just want to purchase the prints though...or frame for themselves often find it expensive.
My main question is why framing companys adhere to standards that dont reflect modern shooting aspect ratios. If the majority of cameras come with a certian aspect ratio, wouldn't it make sense to start offering standard frame/matt sizes that reflect that?
Thats it. I dont want to stretch my work, or change the crop it. I was just talking to my wife. Maybe her idea of starting a framing company that DOES adhear to the new "standard" might be a good business idea.
How many of you out there would buy inexpensive options or send customers to somone who treated such aspect ratios as somthing they supply as standard.
I would definite patronize an outfit who offers frames at a 2:3 ratio. As it is, the couple places that I've gone to get custom mattes cut has screwed them up (Michaels did a particularly bad job, won't go there again), and in the past I've resorted to just printing to 4:3 ratio mattes and just buying pre-cut and getting the cheaper build-your-own frame kits. The one thing that occurs to me as far as custom sized frames goes is that many of my shots I end up cropping to really oddball ratios, so a new set of standard sizes might not necessarily help in many instances unless one were to be able to set up shop in a way that it would be possible to do bulk framing of any size.
Roman, I often wonder the same thing. Though a 18 x 24 frame does fit a 12x18 or 13x19 quite nicely. Same problem with cut sheet paper for printing.....
Posted by Jeff Harrison on April 14, 2008 at 12:36 AM
I seem to have the same issues with precut mats and frames as you do Roman. I cut my own mats when I have to but I would like to have a choice. It seems like all the paper sizes also have the same limitations when it comes to printing files uncropped, frustrates the heck out of me to have to print on paper that is way too large in order to get the whole print on it with some decent borders.
Jeff
Edmonds, Wa.
I'll second Aaron brothers. The frames used at the JPG show were from there - decent corners for 2:3 ratio off the shelf. And customers could easily get a decent frame there for just a little bit of money. But I don't know about their custom framing...that's probably still best at West Coast Frames.
Good framing company started and owned by a photographer. Caters to mostly photographers and offers frames and mats in 2:3 aspect ratio. Their complete frame kits are recommended (at what I consider exceptionally good prices for quality materials). Custom sizes also available. Will ship acrylic AND glass. Metal and wood gallery style frames. I know a number of pros who highly recommend them.
To be clear, this is DIY framing but done simply, or as simple as it's gonna get DIY.
I shoot and crop for the scene in front of me. NEVER the needs of a frame shop! It's my art not theirs - bugger the frame shop.
I prefer Mark Windom's approach - be your own mat and frame shop and sell for a reasonable price. The materials are easily had for a reasonable price and you can pass that savings on to your customers and still make a decent earning.
Bugger the frame shop!! It somehow feels GOOD to say that!!
Posted by Greg Vaughn on April 14, 2008 at 9:44 AM
I'll second the recommendation for framedestination.com. Very good service, very good products.
Posted by Mark Hudon on April 14, 2008 at 11:17 AM
Posted by Mel Ladewig on April 21, 2008 at 2:44 PM
Roman,
I know this post has probably played out most of its value, but I also do my own framing work. Like Mark and Rick, I do my own framing and charge enough to pay for the materials and a bit of in pocket money. I keep a supply of frames and glass on hand and I buy them when they are deeply discounted. I have found that shipping framed pieces is much more expensive than shipping matted and mounted though, so it may be worthwhile to have options to allow your client to frame on their end. 2 18X24 framed pieces I shipped together last year cost a bit over $50 for shipping (plus $10 for the box). I'm sure to ship matted and mounted only would have been less than $25.
As far as the prints go, 12X18 is not a problem to frame. It goes in a 18X24 frame, which is a common frame size. But I do prefer to frame at 16X20 if I can because I can get 4 frames out of one matboard versus 2 when framing 18X24. So some alternatives are to print at 10X15 or 11X14 and sell the print matted with foam core for a 16X20 frame. The 10X15 print in a 16X20 frame looks really nice.
A couple other 2X3 ratio combos for reference are:
10X15 print - 16X20 frame
12X18 print - 18X24 frame
16X24 print - 22X28 frame
20X30 print - 24X36 frame
Basically I think selling your work matted and mounted will help you expand your business. There are no rules to mat and frame sizes. I shoot both 4X5 and 35mm formats. I don't feel that format of the camera strictly dictates the format of the print as much as the subject does.
Mel is right on the mark. Also, I dislike bull's eye mats and think they cheapen your work. Just print to whatever size you need, cut your own mats, stay with standard frames, and don't fret any more.
First off...thanks everybody for the great replies!
Again....this is not about MY matting and framing options...I get a great deal on that from my framer. I pass this on quite nicely to my customers who purchase my pre-framed work.
Its those who want to purchase my prints without framing and or matting and find their solution...well...lets just say that I loose a lot of 12x18 print sales due to framing costs that my clients will be faced with.....and long distance customers also.
I already solved MY framing problems...West Coast frames is as reasonable as they come for somone who has a business license.
Roman
Posted by Mel Ladewig on April 28, 2008 at 10:30 PM
Good luck Roman. Like I said, advise your customers that a 12X18 print fits in a 18X24 frame that they can obtain locally. Then suggest that they have a local framer cut a mat and mount it for them. It shouldn't be terribly expensive. Or sell these sizes matted (do it yourself) and ship it flat. This is better for the customer anyways.
Discussion
17 repliesMost people shoot at todays standard 4x6 aspext ratio...
Framing companys offer "standard" framing at like 16"x20" openings when I can sell 12"x18" prints all day long if people didnt get feedback from framing companys that say "that isnt a standard size" and proceede to charge people an arm and a leg for framing and matting a (now a days) standard size print.
Do any of you selling your work run into this problem at all?
I shoot for the frame I have in front of my eye, and it REALLY messes with the composition when cropping to the diffrent aspect ratio.
Now...I realize I can get a viewfinder that shows what the crop would look like, but then I am throwing away megapixels that I paid for and use for larger prints.
I get the feeling we are adhearing to old standards and running into hurdles just because the framing companys are comfortable offering what they have in the past instead of embracing new standards.
And the standards are world wide (for the sensor size) as I know a D300 or a 40D in Japan has the same sensor as shipped to the USA.
Do any of you know a reasonably priced framing company that embraces currently reflected aspect ratio framing instead of calling it "non standard" and charging so much you have to sell the back 40 of the farm to afford it?
Sorry for the rant....but I am just wondering if I need to start a framing company that will create standards in their inventory that match what most people are shooting these days....lol.
Roman
I've always just used the standard frame sizes to gage my final dimensions of the print. I may have to sometimes slight stretch the image to make it fit just right, but wont do so if it makes it noticibly skewed.
At art shows/fairs, it goes a long way when I tell the customer that this is a standard print size and they can go to any frame shope and pick one out to take it home and hang it on the wall today...rather than waiting 2 weeks or more for the custom framing.
I'm just really glad that I'm out of that part of the business now.
My main question is why framing companys adhere to standards that dont reflect modern shooting aspect ratios. If the majority of cameras come with a certian aspect ratio, wouldn't it make sense to start offering standard frame/matt sizes that reflect that?
Thats it. I dont want to stretch my work, or change the crop it. I was just talking to my wife. Maybe her idea of starting a framing company that DOES adhear to the new "standard" might be a good business idea.
How many of you out there would buy inexpensive options or send customers to somone who treated such aspect ratios as somthing they supply as standard.
Roman
Jeff
Edmonds, Wa.
Kevin
To be clear, this is DIY framing but done simply, or as simple as it's gonna get DIY.
http://www.framedestination.com/
I prefer Mark Windom's approach - be your own mat and frame shop and sell for a reasonable price. The materials are easily had for a reasonable price and you can pass that savings on to your customers and still make a decent earning.
Bugger the frame shop!! It somehow feels GOOD to say that!!
It means Do It Yourself
I know this post has probably played out most of its value, but I also do my own framing work. Like Mark and Rick, I do my own framing and charge enough to pay for the materials and a bit of in pocket money. I keep a supply of frames and glass on hand and I buy them when they are deeply discounted. I have found that shipping framed pieces is much more expensive than shipping matted and mounted though, so it may be worthwhile to have options to allow your client to frame on their end. 2 18X24 framed pieces I shipped together last year cost a bit over $50 for shipping (plus $10 for the box). I'm sure to ship matted and mounted only would have been less than $25.
As far as the prints go, 12X18 is not a problem to frame. It goes in a 18X24 frame, which is a common frame size. But I do prefer to frame at 16X20 if I can because I can get 4 frames out of one matboard versus 2 when framing 18X24. So some alternatives are to print at 10X15 or 11X14 and sell the print matted with foam core for a 16X20 frame. The 10X15 print in a 16X20 frame looks really nice.
A couple other 2X3 ratio combos for reference are:
10X15 print - 16X20 frame
12X18 print - 18X24 frame
16X24 print - 22X28 frame
20X30 print - 24X36 frame
Basically I think selling your work matted and mounted will help you expand your business. There are no rules to mat and frame sizes. I shoot both 4X5 and 35mm formats. I don't feel that format of the camera strictly dictates the format of the print as much as the subject does.
Mel-
Again....this is not about MY matting and framing options...I get a great deal on that from my framer. I pass this on quite nicely to my customers who purchase my pre-framed work.
Its those who want to purchase my prints without framing and or matting and find their solution...well...lets just say that I loose a lot of 12x18 print sales due to framing costs that my clients will be faced with.....and long distance customers also.
I already solved MY framing problems...West Coast frames is as reasonable as they come for somone who has a business license.
Roman