Posted by Dawn Monrose on April 16, 2008 at 5:33 AM
Hi all, I'd really appreciate any thoughts or opinions you could give me...
I've just been accepted by the Woodland Trust picture library - volunteer photographer scheme. I thought this would be a good way getting my name about, and some experience of how a pic library works.
But of course, it is voluntary, so I don't get paid...
I've just read the contract thing about five times, and it seems pretty standard, but it's a bit scary having never done anything like it before!
I've also said they can sell my work commercially, which they keep all the money...I guess it's like a donation . But if they send me to photograph anything, I do get expenses.
I'm going to be careful not to send them just everything I do, I'm planning to shoot their woods, and some wildlife. But all the really good stuff I'm keeping to actually try and make some money from...
So, do you think I'm doing the right thing???
Thanks guys...
Posted by Andy Astbury on April 16, 2008 at 5:38 AM
Dawn - what are you getting in return 'in lieu' - unrestricted access to sites etc? You need to be getting something, otherwise you'd be just as well putting images on a commercial library.
Having had a glance at the contract I'd be reticent to say the least, though I'd be interested to get my head around the opportunities the 'tasks' might generate; these might well make the scheme worthwhile.
Reading further down the agreement the licence you give them is non-exclusive so that's a good thing in a way.
And they pay expenses on tasks too - might even apply myself - the operative word being 'might'
Posted by Paul Inglis on April 16, 2008 at 5:51 AM
I once had a similiar deal but when I read the small print they shared the copyright on all images shot on their properties - not such a good deal then! I then had it amended! If unlimited access is possible for good range of subject matter then it is sometimes worth it!
Posted by Dawn Monrose on April 16, 2008 at 6:02 AM
Thanks guys!
The commercial use is optional, so I think I'll opt out of that, because, as you say I may as well have the images in a commercial library, and actually earn from them...
I'm not sure about the unrestricted access to sites, I imagine that would be something I could negotiate. I suppose the main thing I hope to get from it is publicity, and some experience...
Thanks again - much appreciated
Posted by Mike Smith on April 16, 2008 at 12:20 PM
Our pro/semi pro collegues will be banging their heads against walls again.
There is something in the British psyche that when we see the word Trust and voluntary body we immediately think they cannot rub two pennies together and survive only from income on secondhand books sales at church fetes. These trusts are not as short of money as they make out and frequently they exploit the good old British 'good egg' spirit.
OK sit down and make yourself a strong cup of tea because you are not going to like reading the following figures from Audited filed accounts for the Woodland Trust year ended 31 Dec 2006;
Total annual income £21.9million, by up £1 million over 2005.
Funds utilised for conservation purposes £15.789 million,
COST OF GENERATING FUNDS £3.877 million,
corporate governance £194K.
( so that's a further £1.1million stashed away for a rainy day from 2006 performance)
Total net assets £75.385million
And you want to donate your images royalty free for no commission?
David Kjear should be able to give a good steer on going rate for these bodies, he has many many pictures printed by the Nature Trust bodies in their glossy newsletters.
If your images are really up to scratch for goodness sake do not donate them, you are killing the livelyhood of many professional photographers.
Soap box put away again
Mike
Posted by Dawn Monrose on April 16, 2008 at 1:05 PM
Eeek! Hold on there Mike!
I'm well aware of the issues regarding royalty free, and people giving their images away, just for the kick of seeing them in print. Yes I agree it is detrimental for pros.
But, for people like me, just starting out, it's an easy ish way to get some publicity, experience, and the chance to go on to better things. I'm interested in supplying pic libraries, but my images aren't currently up to scratch and I don't have enough. The woodland trust have accepted me despite this, so I get a chance to see how things work. Hopefully standing me in good stead for the future, to make a valuable contribution to professional wildlife photography.
I have opted out of the commercial side so they can't make money from them for themselves, and I will only be giving them a small percentage of my work, my best work I'll be using to (hopefully) earn some money so they won't get that. If they send me anywhere they'll pay expenses, what with the rising cost of fuel, it'll be a decent amount.
As a newbie, I simply can't just walk into this and instantly command the highest fees.
In my opinion, the woodland trust is the lesser of several evils, if you wish to see it like that. They do valuable work. It's not like the RSPB, me and my partner went to minsmere, tried to have lunch in the cafe, it cost us £4 just for one sandwich and one sausage roll and they charge an entry fee. Now that's extortionate.
Give us a chance, I'm just learning!
Posted by Rene de Heer on April 16, 2008 at 1:39 PM
...The RSPB pays for images! With regards to getting experience: i think you would probably learn more on image forums like Nature photographers.net and Naturescapes.net etc.
The one who is the winner is the Woodland Trust, the ones who are the losers are the photographers!.
I have no intention to subsidize any charity and as per Mike Smith's email: they can afford to pay. I can understand that it is great for you to have images publicised but for photographers who are paid (like me, at times) it is a killer!
There are two Wildlife places that get my images for free, they are a local nature reserve(images taken on the reserve for the visitor centre) and the barn owl project I am helping. All other places pay a price.
Regards
Rob
Posted by Dawn Monrose on April 16, 2008 at 2:22 PM
Guys, I didn't want to start a debate about this, I just needed some help, which I got, thanks.
Rene, Mike, you both just walked into wildlife photography straight away did you? You both got up one morning and decided, hey, I'm now a pro wildlife photographer, and got paid for it?
I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't work like that and that's the little I know. In this day and age, where 'everyone's' a photographer, and images are easy to pick up for free, it's even harder for those that want to start out and actually earn from it, let alone the established pros.
I'm not saying I'm just handing my images over to anyone who wants them for free. This is the first thing I've done to try and get something published. In a sense I'm not doing it for free. I'm doing it to get publicity for myself and I'm doing it to get a reputation as someone who supports conservation, thats what my images are about. Maybe those things will be worth more than hard cash in the future...
Thanks Rob, if its the barn owl project that I'm thinking of, then ace!
Look, I understand your position, but please understand mine. I'm not like all the other wannabies - handing out images for free, just to get a kick out of seeing them in print, I'm serious about making something from this, I've gotta start somewhere!
Discussion
8 repliesI've just been accepted by the Woodland Trust picture library - volunteer photographer scheme. I thought this would be a good way getting my name about, and some experience of how a pic library works.
But of course, it is voluntary, so I don't get paid...
I've just read the contract thing about five times, and it seems pretty standard, but it's a bit scary having never done anything like it before!
I've also said they can sell my work commercially, which they keep all the money...I guess it's like a donation
I'm going to be careful not to send them just everything I do, I'm planning to shoot their woods, and some wildlife. But all the really good stuff I'm keeping to actually try and make some money from...
So, do you think I'm doing the right thing???
Thanks guys...
Having had a glance at the contract I'd be reticent to say the least, though I'd be interested to get my head around the opportunities the 'tasks' might generate; these might well make the scheme worthwhile.
Reading further down the agreement the licence you give them is non-exclusive so that's a good thing in a way.
And they pay expenses on tasks too - might even apply myself - the operative word being 'might'
The commercial use is optional, so I think I'll opt out of that, because, as you say I may as well have the images in a commercial library, and actually earn from them...
I'm not sure about the unrestricted access to sites, I imagine that would be something I could negotiate. I suppose the main thing I hope to get from it is publicity, and some experience...
Thanks again - much appreciated
There is something in the British psyche that when we see the word Trust and voluntary body we immediately think they cannot rub two pennies together and survive only from income on secondhand books sales at church fetes. These trusts are not as short of money as they make out and frequently they exploit the good old British 'good egg' spirit.
OK sit down and make yourself a strong cup of tea because you are not going to like reading the following figures from Audited filed accounts for the Woodland Trust year ended 31 Dec 2006;
Total annual income £21.9million, by up £1 million over 2005.
Funds utilised for conservation purposes £15.789 million,
COST OF GENERATING FUNDS £3.877 million,
corporate governance £194K.
( so that's a further £1.1million stashed away for a rainy day from 2006 performance)
Total net assets £75.385million
And you want to donate your images royalty free for no commission?
David Kjear should be able to give a good steer on going rate for these bodies, he has many many pictures printed by the Nature Trust bodies in their glossy newsletters.
If your images are really up to scratch for goodness sake do not donate them, you are killing the livelyhood of many professional photographers.
Soap box put away again
Mike
I'm well aware of the issues regarding royalty free, and people giving their images away, just for the kick of seeing them in print. Yes I agree it is detrimental for pros.
But, for people like me, just starting out, it's an easy ish way to get some publicity, experience, and the chance to go on to better things. I'm interested in supplying pic libraries, but my images aren't currently up to scratch and I don't have enough. The woodland trust have accepted me despite this, so I get a chance to see how things work. Hopefully standing me in good stead for the future, to make a valuable contribution to professional wildlife photography.
I have opted out of the commercial side so they can't make money from them for themselves, and I will only be giving them a small percentage of my work, my best work I'll be using to (hopefully) earn some money so they won't get that. If they send me anywhere they'll pay expenses, what with the rising cost of fuel, it'll be a decent amount.
As a newbie, I simply can't just walk into this and instantly command the highest fees.
In my opinion, the woodland trust is the lesser of several evils, if you wish to see it like that. They do valuable work. It's not like the RSPB, me and my partner went to minsmere, tried to have lunch in the cafe, it cost us £4 just for one sandwich and one sausage roll
Give us a chance, I'm just learning!
The one who is the winner is the Woodland Trust, the ones who are the losers are the photographers!.
I have no intention to subsidize any charity and as per Mike Smith's email: they can afford to pay. I can understand that it is great for you to have images publicised but for photographers who are paid (like me, at times) it is a killer!
Rene de Heer
There are two Wildlife places that get my images for free, they are a local nature reserve(images taken on the reserve for the visitor centre) and the barn owl project I am helping. All other places pay a price.
Regards
Rob
Rene, Mike, you both just walked into wildlife photography straight away did you? You both got up one morning and decided, hey, I'm now a pro wildlife photographer, and got paid for it?
I'm sorry, but it simply doesn't work like that and that's the little I know. In this day and age, where 'everyone's' a photographer, and images are easy to pick up for free, it's even harder for those that want to start out and actually earn from it, let alone the established pros.
I'm not saying I'm just handing my images over to anyone who wants them for free. This is the first thing I've done to try and get something published. In a sense I'm not doing it for free. I'm doing it to get publicity for myself and I'm doing it to get a reputation as someone who supports conservation, thats what my images are about. Maybe those things will be worth more than hard cash in the future...
Thanks Rob, if its the barn owl project that I'm thinking of, then ace!
Look, I understand your position, but please understand mine. I'm not like all the other wannabies - handing out images for free, just to get a kick out of seeing them in print, I'm serious about making something from this, I've gotta start somewhere!