What would you do?

You have spent 15 minutes low crawling up to your subject so as not to frighten or disturb them, the light is great, there is wonderful behavior action going on.

You are in plain sight, there is absolutely nothing to block you from any one's view.

You are busy taking images, focused on the two targets in front of you.

And some one walks along right in front of you and scares away the birds. There is plenty of room for them to go around without having scared the birds, but they walk through making noise, kicking sand like you are not even there.

Personally, even if I were not a bird photographer, I would have given wide berth to the photographer.

This happens to me quite often, I usually do not say a word.

But should I?

How much of an ambassador should I be to educate these people about common courtesy?

I'm interested to know what other photographers think about this subject.

I would . . . as usual . . . chalk it up to "the way things are". If you confront someone for walking through your perfect shot, and you in a publicly accessible place at the time, are you going to win any friends for the photographing community?

There are people who are considerate of what you are doing, and there are those who are either oblivious or at least unaware of how important that shot is to you.

Besides, the way things are these days, I think I would be hesitant to confront an inconsiderate or oblivious person over something like a photo . . . road rage is no longer confined to the highway, you know . . .

One option I take whenever it's likely there will be other people around, and I have the time, is to take mine ownself further afield. If that's not possible, then I simply accept that some of those great photos are going to get away before I can get close enough.

Norman, the road rage thing has gone through my mind about situations this.

I am usually alone when I am taking photos, and this morning the place where I was taking photos was not crowded at all, I could see maybe 4 other people at the time. But they were a good distance away, possibly more than 500 yards.

At times I feel vulnerable being a woman alone in the field. So I am hesitant to say any thing to them about how their behavior ruined a good image.

I go to these places when they are likely to be the least crowded because this happens so often.

Thank you for your input Norman.

Norman, I tend to encounter mostly courteous people; they hang back, go around me and often ask about what it is I'm shooting. On the rare occasion someone walks through my sight lines, seemingly oblivious to the world around them, I react with a sarcastic tone like, "Hey, thanks, I didn't want to take a picture of those Ivory billed woodpeckers, the branches of the tree are great!" Responses are usually pretty lame, but occasionally a genuine apology gets muttered. On a related note, Manfrotto mono pods make a great baton. I am not abdicating violence, just know your environs.
Happy Shooting, Bruce

Hey Bruce - I gotta say, if I accidentally walked into your shot and heard you say something like that, I'd chalk it up to you being a bit of a jerk. If you just said excuse me, or watch where you're walking, I think much more of you, and I'd be sure to apologize. Of course, I'd feel bad either way, so maybe I'm different than some of these people. I'm also pretty laid back, even when something upsets me. Guess I try to follow the "more flies with honey" type of thing, and give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Of course, if people see you and walk through the shot anyway, then by all means let the sarcasm fly.

(PS - I think you meant "advocating" not "abdicating".)

What if they came and sat down beside you . I don't actually worry about it, its all very small in the scheme of things. If you said something you might get, "What right have you got to create more carbon emissions than I am at the moment. We walked here, how did you get here". Oops, that sounds like me.

Danny.

Lia I agree mostly with Norman. Not all people are phototgraphers (I know thats hard to believe if you have been to Yellowstone lately) . I have seen fights and many verbal confrontations that would raise the hairs on the back of a sailor. THERE ARE TO MANY PEOPLE ON THE EDGE out there both photographers and non-photographers. Silence is golden in this case.

It is just a photo. Your rent doesn't depend on it. Nobody and nothing died. Somebody shot it better. Someone else with a far worse photo is making far more money from the subject than you ever will.

It really isn't all that important.

Yeah, it is annoying when it happens. But it is just a photo.

Bruce, my nature is pretty friendly, sarcasm would not work well for me. As for my monopod, that would work if some one tried to cause me harm, but not for a missed photo.

Fred, you made me laugh! It happens quite often to me, so do you reckon the 48 hour rule would still apply??

Danny, I do have those people who come sit down beside me, and they walk up quietly. Some end up walking away knowing a bit more about birds than they did when they tossed off their covers that morning. Not many people walk to get where I was at this morning, so the emissions thing would not apply.

Don, I have been to Yellowstone lately, and yes, there can be a crush of photographers, and I have heard nasty things said too.

Which is probably why I have just kept my mouth shut when situations like this come up in the field.

Dan, I'm not quite sure how to take some of what you posted, but yes, it is just a photo.

But you know, I don't think I am alone in treasuring my photos, so they do have some worth.

I take my photography very seriously. Others enjoy it beyond my immediate circle - enough so that it was a great help financially last year when I was unemployed.

At the same, I've spent too many years watching people take things way too seriously - attaching importance to things far out of proportion to what it is actually worth. I am not going to play that game.

It can very upsetting to work hard to get a photo and at the last second, have the opportunity blown by something completely out of your control, especially if it is a person who "could" have waited. True enough - if you let it bother you.

But in the end, you asked what I would do. Nothing. It isn't worth the effort to get upset about it. There will always be other shots.

I meant emissions to make your camera gear I better go

Danny.

Dan, so well said. I DO make my living with the cameras now, and still when I'm making images in pubic places I have to laugh when people walk into the shot because they're in dreamland. I had one guy walk in between me and my subject totally on purpose last summer when I was in a city park. He planted himself a few yards in front of me and gave me a belligerent stare. I don't know if he was making a point that he had as much right to stand where he wanted in a public park as I did or if he had to pass a gallstone just then, but I just laughed at him and he turned an interesting shade of purple and stomped off.

It's just a picture. People often are fools. Life's too short to get upset over that kind of stuff.

I say mace 'em. If they press charges, say they made unwanted and threatening advances toward you.

LOL Stan, only because a brick wasn't handy huh I think we will just rename you "Gentle Ben" M8t

I generally avoid photos in such public places to begin with, but when this sort of thing has happened to me I generally do mention it to the folks. Usually they aren't even aware of what I was doing. I am nice about it.


Kent in SD

Lia I carry a few Hand grenades here for people like that
But seriously what you need to do is forgive them for there ignorance as they dont know any better.Not everyone loves birds @ photography and they also dont care to much about what is going on around them.
I agree with you being a female alone on the beach the MACHO'S come out to show(ACTUALLY THIS IS MATING SEASON ISNT IT) who is boss????
If only they knew Forgive them your health is far more important and there are elot more birds

What would I do? I have a quick temper and a sharp tongue so I don't think I could have held back some sort of smartarse comment. But my common sense approach is that you'll come across rude idiots through life and it's best to ignore them. What can you do? You can't undo bad breeding.

Lia, it is unfortunate when this happens, and many people simply do not realise that they are being inconsiderate. Even tourists with cameras can be a nuisance sometimes. My worst experience of this was in a fairly remote national park in China. People would deliberately stand directly in front of you with their back almost flush with my lens. Alternatively they may shoo you away even though you were there first. I would keep moving to a quiet area, but opening a tripod woudl draw a crowd. A few curious people pushed my head aside so they could look through my viewfinder. It used to frustrate me a great deal, but I realised this behaviour was acceptable to them. Sorry to digress. The fact is that the passer-by was inconsiderate and it may not be within their realm of understanding to know better. I'm not the confrontational type, and I know what you mean about the vulnerability of females alone in the field, so I tend to just ignore them too. I'm sure you'll come up with winners despite this.

I want to thank everyone who replied to my thread.

It was upsetting when the man walked in front of me, but my point was more about should I have said some thing. I believe from most of the replies that the consensus is "no".

One of my favorite quotes is: "All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing." -- Edmund Burke and whilst mulling what happened yesterday around in my mind, I felt like I had some serious pondering to do about it and weighing what I should or should not have done.

I have been coming up with some very nice images despite the inconsiderate people of the world, but I wonder if they would like it if I plopped myself into their family vacation portraits.

Stilling mulling it over, but I appreciate your comments.

Hi Lia! Good thread! I remember a few years ago, I had just set up where there was a moose in water with a beautiful sunrise behind him and then a van full of tourists stopped and everyone got out. No whispers or consideration at all. Well, obviously the moose went back in the woods and the shot was lost and then the van went away and and I was left p-off. I stewed about it for awhile and let it spoil my beautiful morning. So I have learned to just let it go and add the shots I lose to my "memory shots" (which no one else will ever see and those include my goof shots too ) I don't make waves as I am also a woman alone most often. As several have said, in the grand scheme of things, it's only a picture. Good luck for next time!!

Thats better Lia , you need to smile through things like this. Its frustrating, but its honestly not worth worrying about too much. One thing for sure, it won't be the last time. Its interesting for me in this thread, because its hard to see it from a females point of view. So I've learnt a fair bit from what others have said about that.

All the best Lia, keep smiling and don't sweat the small stuff.

Danny.

I probably would have done the same as you, Lia....say nothing and let it go.

On the other hand, there are times when people are quite willing to go out of their way in order to avoid messing up your images. A few weeks ago, my son wanted me to take some images of him and his girlfriend at a butterfly exhibit. As busy as the place was, without fail, everyone who saw us waited politely until I had taken the shots or walked around us! That kind of makes up for the times when inconsiderates like to get in our way.

I have a suggestion Lia though it is a shame one might have to resort to such. If one is a bird photographer that frequents public shore areas where as you related, too often the inconsiderate ruin situations. You might consider carrying along some portable lightweight sign, maybe a flag say, that you could stick in the ground warning people. That might be the only way a solo photographer could hope to deflect the mindless.

I think a more common situation is when we landscape photographers are working public areas where other people walk into the views of our frames. Sometimes the choice is simply to wait a bit till they wander out. In some usually popular places like walkways, the status quo is so public that a photographer ought not expect groups of people to bother moving out of the way or waiting for them to take a picture even if they set up during a minute when such was empty. In a few other cases inconsiderate people may see one's camera and purposesly move into the frame because being obnoxious is what they do annoying others. Like the drunk bully at a bar that works to provoke others in order to have an excuse to beat on them. At other times people can see one is taking a picture though have no way of knowing how wide ones field of view frame is. Thus one needs to communicate to the field of view by stretching out one's pointing arms.

Since I shoot large format with a dark cloth, a fair number of people immediately are fascinated by my camera and will be drawn to the area I am photographing. And that includes other photographers. Typical is a situation in our roadside areas of parks where one could watch an ignored location for an hour and no one might stop to take a photograph. If I set up my view camera in view of a road, I can guarantee while under my dark cloth, that I'll begin hearing the sounds of some passing cars braking, slowing down to take a longer look. As soon as one car actually stops and people pop out for a closer look, a carnival may begin and quickly more cars will begin to stop. Before long I may have people, kids, and dogs wandering in my frames. I will try and wave them off. If that doesn't work, I become pleasantly vocal with "Please....."
...David

When people disrespect me I let them know how I feel. While shooting event photos earlier this year, some guy with his family all holding hands in a crowded area walked straight into me and he blamed me for not walking around them screaming at me. Not minding that there was no room to begin with. So I told him to bleep off and a bunch of other terms unfit for print here. He walked away with his tail between his legs despite being twice my size.

Christine, I would have been upset about the missed moose shots too. But I can relate to the "memory shots", I have a brain full of them.

Cindy, I also battle with an illness, so I can totally relate to rearranged priorites.

You can use these experiences to open a few minds.. like 'see that beautiful bird that just flew away? that's a ________ and they only pass through here this time of year- aren't they gorgeous? They're REALLY hard to sneak up on too, so I guess I'll have to try again..' ;)

Educate.. and appreciate

Thanks Cindy, that was what I was thinking about when I first posted this thread. I probably will tend to keep my thoughts to myself about most of them, because one never knows how irrate the person might be that you say some thing to.

The truth is, I meet some of the most interesting people when I am out shooting, and quite a lot of them become friends. But I meet some of the most inconsiderate ones too.

Toni, it was nice of people to wait or go around while you took photos of your son & his girlfriend. I meet those kind of people too.

David, I wish your idea about the sign would work, but it probably would not for the type of people who purposely ruin shots by walking into them. It might even make them more brazen.

I have seen the crowds of people gather behind large format photographers while in the field. And I have wondered if they could cause issues with what you see in your lens.

I don't think "we" as photographers have any more rights that a person without a camera, but a fair number of photographers I have met have been on the side of being considerate, not just to other photographers, but to every one they meet while being out shooting.

Of course there are exceptions to that.

Richard, I doubt I could be as vocal as you were, I am just not very confrontational.

I'll keep pondering this, I appreciate all the comments and suggestions.

This is a very interesting thread. After reading everyone's comments, it got me thinking about how this might present to someone who is not as avid about photography as we are. I know there are things in life that others are very passionate about that I have no interest in whatsoever. So I tried to reverse the role. I can see where someone like that would really not have any "sense" of what goes into the setup and getting the shot. Even those many shooters in Yellowstone--perhaps a majority of them are "snapshooters." At the same time, I can see where they feel they have just as much right to "see the Moose" or the "view" in the public places as the other guy there--without really having an appreciation of what it is like to be "behind the lens." One thing that has always worked in my favor in most public places is that when the good light is there, the big crowds usually aren't. Beaches may be an exception, as I was always surprised how many folks were out at sunrise at our Ocean vacations.

At the same time, I would have a different view of someone who was "oblivious" or just not understanding of what was going on from one who deliberately interfered. I have to say I have never (knowingly) encountered that. In my job, I see a lot of the "ugly" in people, because, by its nature that kind of thing comes to us. But I also see a lot of the good -- and I continue to believe--however naively--that most people are of the latter and the "ugliness" is in the minority.

What this thread had made me personally reflect on is to ask myself whether maybe I am like that when it comes to things others do and that maybe I need to be more observant about what is going on around me--even though I don't (think I) have the slightest interest.

Personally, I am non-confrontational and am from the "life is too short already" camp. So I wouldn't say anything.

Thanks, Lia for this thought-provoking thread

Andy,

I'm very much in the "life is too short already" camp. I think of that often.

The shellseeker has as much right on the beach as I do. For me that goes without saying.

But I also know I would not walk up and step on their prized Angular Triton shell and crush it just before they got it in their reach. That just isn't my "nature".

Balancing what is right and what is wrong seems to be as difficult as the balance of nature when human kind gets into the picture (pardon the pun).

I am learning a lot from all of your responses, and I am glad I started this thread.

Edmund Burke - that pretty much sums up my behavior any more in a world full of selfish bozos. I try to avoid crowds when taking photos, and I try not to claim exclusive "rights" in public places, but I get offended by the people who can't follow the rules of a place or behave completely selfishly. So:

- I confront people at the Water Ranch who don't keep their dogs on a leach as the park rules require
- I don't move out of the way for bozos who think they own all the space on a path or in the mall
- I take photos of cars and their drivers using marked Handicapped Parking places if they don't have tags or a hanging placard to do so
- I ask people to take their loud cell phone monologs someplace else when they are disturbing me in the library or holding up the checkout line at the market

Our society has been losing all signs of common courtesy that used to be the norm as recently as 5-10 years ago, and I think part of the reason is because other people are too timid to speak out about it.

let me clarify. I was the one being attacked so I snapped back. If someone is going after you with an act of aggression, you have to stand up for yourself otherwise people will walk all over you.

Richard Wong (since two Richards replied one after the other) I would have stood my ground too had I felt like I was being attacked. I may be tiny, but if cornered by them they would wish they had tangled with a full grown cougar instead of me.

Richard Ditch, yesterday I was walking on a boardwalk in a park, one that specifically states "No bicycles" on a sign at both ends. I'm at a place on the boardwalk where there is a bend and I can not see too far in front of me. I heard a strange noise and moved over towards the rail, curious as to what the sound was.

A grown man, with what appeared to be a 12 or 13 year old girl with him (his daughter perhaps) are riding trail bikes on the boardwalk. I moved aside and the man said to me "excuse us, we are flaunting the rules".

To which I replied "And what do you think that is teaching her?" and pointed to the girl.

He didn't say another word, they just moved on down the boardwalk. But it some times looks to me like the adults who are flaunting the rules do not realize the children witnessing that will soon be flaunting their parental rules too. Then they will flaunt more of society's rules than their parents.

Thank you both for adding your voices to this discussion.

Folks who intentionally foul up photos, or don't care that they disrupt things, or even wander through, oblivious, have such serious problems of their own that I usually don't burden them with my unhappiness at their actions.

Someone who delights in in disrupting another's work has such a skewed world view that their own misery is likely punishment enough.

Someone who doesn't even notice I am trying to take a photo is missing so much of the world around them that they are likely past hope. I try not to let their bad karma louse up my karma, and get on with my life.

Photographers who interfere with my photos are another story. Mace is too good for them.