Posted by Mel Ladewig on April 21, 2008 at 1:22 PM
(Shot from earlier in the winter)
Tomorrow morning the 96% illuminated moon will be positioned so that if you're around the Mesa parking area, the moon, the kissing camels and Pikes Peak will be roughly in line with each other (much closer than shown in this photo. The USNO calculates moonset at 7AM and sunrise at 6:12.
In case my guesstimates don't work out quite right, the conditions will be roughly the same on Wednesday morning, but the moon will be higher at sunrise and a few degrees further to the south.
Also it is forecast to be clear overnight and in the morning.
Some technical info for the moon, it will be sweeping towards the north as it sets.
For April 22
Time - Azimuth
600 - 238.3
610 - 239.8
620 - 241.3
For April 23 (91% illuminated)
600 - 229.0
610 - 230.6
620 - 232.2
Mel-
Posted by Paul Martin on April 21, 2008 at 4:24 PM
Good info, if I didn't live so far away I'd be all over it -- thanks Mel.
Posted by Mel Ladewig on April 22, 2008 at 9:57 AM
Uhh ohh...
I'll probably catch some flak for this. I should have calculated the altitude too. As it turns out, while the moon is visible, its a bit further to the south. By 6:12 it was already behind Pikes Peak. And a little cloud bank out east squashed the alpenglow.
Anyways, tomorrow the moon should be on the left side of the frame in the shot above.
Mel-
Posted by Derek Sedillo on April 22, 2008 at 11:36 AM
Mel,
I have been questioning the accuracy of the USNO site lately. Here is why. For tommorrow here is the altitude & azimuth data for Colorado Springs:
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Apr 23, 2008
Mountain Standard Time
Altitude Azimuth Fraction
(E of N) Illuminated
h m o o
00:00 18.5 151.5 0.93
...
06:20 2.3 232.2 0.91
06:30 0.9 233.7 0.91
06:40 -1.1 235.2 0.91
06:50 -2.7 236.7 0.91
07:00 -4.2 238.2 0.91
Now if you search under Sun and Moon Data for One Day (CS):
Wednesday
23 April 2008 Mountain Daylight Time
Moonset 7:38 a.m.
It looks like the Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon table is 1 hour off. It shows moonset at ~ 6:35 am for 0 altitude. Or the moon data above is off by an hour. But they are not in synch.
So which is moonset 6:30 or 7:30am? Kinda hard to tell based on this data. However based on your observations today it sounds like it may have been the earlier time. Hmm... Could there algorithm not be taking into account daylight savings?
Derek - the first set of times are MST, while the second set are MDT. Since we're now on daylight time, the 7:38 am time is more or less correct - "more or less" because I don't believe that the times account for topography. So while the moon may technically set at 7:38, it will drop behind the mountains earlier than that.
Posted by Mel Ladewig on April 22, 2008 at 12:25 PM
Rick is correct.
I didn't realize that they have one table on MST and the other on MDT and that affects the Azimuth as well. I read the azimuth from the MST times. The sunrise table clearly indicated that it was MDT, so I figured this was as well.
Right at moonset it looks like it would have been in good position behind Pikes Peak (based on the course the moon was taking). Unfortunatley, it would be behind Pikes Peak.
I'll have to calculate the required altitude to stay above Pikes Peak and then check this again for the fall. My guess is that it will work 2 or 3 days after the full moon closest to the fall equinox. As long as the moon is 90% or so illuminated it will still appear to be full.
Anyways, if anyone wants to shoot down there tomorrow, the moon should be up a bit still at sunrise and it will be to the south of Pikes Peak as viewed from the Mesa road overlook north of the visitor center.
Whenever I shoot full moonset along the Front Range, it's usually 2 days after the official full moon; any earlier, and the moon is usually too low or actually behind the mountains by the time sunrise light gets good; any later, and the moon doesn't look full and/or it's too high in the sky.
Depending on the exact time of moonset relative to sunrise, the time of year, your proximity to the mountains that are between you and the moon, and the height of that mountain, it may not be possible to capture full or near full moon at sunrise.
I use a simple program called Ephemeris to get the moon data. Brent D. told me about it a few years ago. It's not fancy, but it works very well and no internet connection is needed. You still need to be familiar with the topography for the data to be meaningful, but this gets you in the ballpark.
Posted by Derek Sedillo on April 22, 2008 at 2:26 PM
Thanks Rick! I never would have thought they would use MST on one graph and MDT on another. So I ignored that part. I guess I won't next time.
With regards to the altitude it looks like the moon will be around 10 degrees at sunrise tomorrow. So that will probably be enough if shooting the Garden from Mesa Rd. But for places like Dream Lake in will most likely not be enough. I seem to recall a previous thread where we ran the numbers at Dream Lake needed > 12 degrees of altitude.
On another note I bet the full moon looks great over the Pacific at sunrise. I saw one shot of Seconds Beach with the Haystacks and a full moon. It was awesome. I'm headed out there in a couple of weeks to check things out.
Discussion
7 repliesTomorrow morning the 96% illuminated moon will be positioned so that if you're around the Mesa parking area, the moon, the kissing camels and Pikes Peak will be roughly in line with each other (much closer than shown in this photo. The USNO calculates moonset at 7AM and sunrise at 6:12.
In case my guesstimates don't work out quite right, the conditions will be roughly the same on Wednesday morning, but the moon will be higher at sunrise and a few degrees further to the south.
Also it is forecast to be clear overnight and in the morning.
Some technical info for the moon, it will be sweeping towards the north as it sets.
For April 22
Time - Azimuth
600 - 238.3
610 - 239.8
620 - 241.3
For April 23 (91% illuminated)
600 - 229.0
610 - 230.6
620 - 232.2
Mel-
I'll probably catch some flak for this. I should have calculated the altitude too. As it turns out, while the moon is visible, its a bit further to the south. By 6:12 it was already behind Pikes Peak. And a little cloud bank out east squashed the alpenglow.
Anyways, tomorrow the moon should be on the left side of the frame in the shot above.
Mel-
I have been questioning the accuracy of the USNO site lately. Here is why. For tommorrow here is the altitude & azimuth data for Colorado Springs:
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon
Apr 23, 2008
Mountain Standard Time
Altitude Azimuth Fraction
(E of N) Illuminated
h m o o
00:00 18.5 151.5 0.93
...
06:20 2.3 232.2 0.91
06:30 0.9 233.7 0.91
06:40 -1.1 235.2 0.91
06:50 -2.7 236.7 0.91
07:00 -4.2 238.2 0.91
Now if you search under Sun and Moon Data for One Day (CS):
Wednesday
23 April 2008 Mountain Daylight Time
Moonset 7:38 a.m.
It looks like the Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon table is 1 hour off. It shows moonset at ~ 6:35 am for 0 altitude. Or the moon data above is off by an hour. But they are not in synch.
So which is moonset 6:30 or 7:30am? Kinda hard to tell based on this data. However based on your observations today it sounds like it may have been the earlier time. Hmm... Could there algorithm not be taking into account daylight savings?
I didn't realize that they have one table on MST and the other on MDT and that affects the Azimuth as well. I read the azimuth from the MST times. The sunrise table clearly indicated that it was MDT, so I figured this was as well.
Right at moonset it looks like it would have been in good position behind Pikes Peak (based on the course the moon was taking). Unfortunatley, it would be behind Pikes Peak.
I'll have to calculate the required altitude to stay above Pikes Peak and then check this again for the fall. My guess is that it will work 2 or 3 days after the full moon closest to the fall equinox. As long as the moon is 90% or so illuminated it will still appear to be full.
Anyways, if anyone wants to shoot down there tomorrow, the moon should be up a bit still at sunrise and it will be to the south of Pikes Peak as viewed from the Mesa road overlook north of the visitor center.
Depending on the exact time of moonset relative to sunrise, the time of year, your proximity to the mountains that are between you and the moon, and the height of that mountain, it may not be possible to capture full or near full moon at sunrise.
I use a simple program called Ephemeris to get the moon data. Brent D. told me about it a few years ago. It's not fancy, but it works very well and no internet connection is needed. You still need to be familiar with the topography for the data to be meaningful, but this gets you in the ballpark.
With regards to the altitude it looks like the moon will be around 10 degrees at sunrise tomorrow. So that will probably be enough if shooting the Garden from Mesa Rd. But for places like Dream Lake in will most likely not be enough. I seem to recall a previous thread where we ran the numbers at Dream Lake needed > 12 degrees of altitude.
On another note I bet the full moon looks great over the Pacific at sunrise. I saw one shot of Seconds Beach with the Haystacks and a full moon. It was awesome. I'm headed out there in a couple of weeks to check things out.