I have been looking to frame some of my images with over the counter mats and frames. I have a hard time finding any 2-3 ratio frames, or mats, for that matter. I did find some 20x30, and 24x36 frames from Aaron Bros. The mats would need to be custom cut. 20x30 is as big as I really want to go. As an alternative, I have been cropping to 4-5 aspect ratio while in camera raw. It sucks because not all my images respond well to the cropping. Is this pretty common among you other memebrs out there? Or do you stick to the 2-3 and risk not selling as many due to people not wanting to have to shell out the $$$ for custom framing and mats?
Thanks,
Chris
Posted by David Chauvin on April 28, 2008 at 8:51 AM
Chris,,,,,,I always crop to what I feel is the best composition and let the chips fall where they may on matting and framing. It's the same to me as the raw vs jpeg argument. Why should I give up control of the final image to either the camera or mass market frame industries? My livelihood is not dependent on print sales so if I lose a few sales because of "non-standard" cropping, so be it.
If the image doesn't look right when cropped,it probably wouldn't sell well anyway. Use he best aspect ratio for the image. Also, it's not uncommon to make the bottom side of the mat a bit wider than the other three, so you can be creative about fitting a 3:2 image in a 5:4 mat.
That said, if you do this enough, I suggest you buy a mid-range mat cutter and cut the mats yourself. Your customers may still need custom framing but that's OK. You can't know what style will fit best with their decor anyway. Someone who's wiling to place a 20x30 piece on their wall will likely not want to cut corners. If it's a nature image it will probably go in a prominent location in their house. It's not like a rock star poster tacked to the wall in a teenager's room.
I agree with David and Guy. Let the image be the most compelling force dictating mat proportion. We also cut our own mats when non-standard sizes are needed using a mid-range mat cutter as Guy suggested. In general, also as mentioned, customers paying the higher price for that size fine art print won't think twice about having it custom framed.
I not only crop all kinds of different sizes, I rez up to crop. From my point of view, effective composition is the only issue. As a practical matter I work inside fairly conventional frame sizes to protect my margins, but I am doing very well now with 1:3 ratio prints, 4x12's and 12x36's. I come at it from two directions. The frame direction, and the print direction. I have prints that work fine in the 2:3 native format, 1:3 format, and conventional formats like 4:5, and 5:7. If you crop and work some of the radical formats like 4x12, you might find that you have commercial gems that you had overlooked. I have some very successful prints that only work in that 1:3 format.
If you are trying to make a buck, very different formats appeal to women a lot. I think in terms of where these fit in a home. The 1:3 format works great vertically or horizontally, and I am selling more of them than anything else (in a very tough low income market). For instance, I am selling 4x12s in a barnwood frame for $25. I have about $6 wrapped up in them. I hear two things. First, that will go in places no other print of any sort will go, and second, there are plenty of decorating
situations where you choose this format because it fits best, like over a fireplace.
I have taken this to such a degree now that my compositions include pre-visualization of these radical formats. I find some pictures I would have rejected in the past fit perfectly as 4x12s, or 12x4's. I can't keep these in stock. Another thing, I am doing creative groupings of these formats in sets. As an example, a 12x36 atop two 12x18s, or a 4x12 atop a 12x18. This really works. I am not kidding, the economy is going to hell and I can't keep up with demand for framed prints to low income people. Often these are bought by the merchants who I sell through on consignment for their homes. These are all cropped and/or rezzed photos, not conventional panos.
I not only crop all kinds of different sizes, I rez up to crop. From my point of view, effective composition is the only issue. As a practical matter I work inside fairly conventional frame sizes to protect my margins, but I am doing very well now with 1:3 ratio prints, 4x12's and 12x36's. I come at it from two directions. The frame direction, and the print direction. I have prints that work fine in the 2:3 native format, 1:3 format, and conventional formats like 4:5, and 5:7. If you crop and work some of the radical formats like 4x12, you might find that you have commercial gems that you had overlooked. I have some very successful prints that only work in that 1:3 format.
If you are trying to make a buck, very different formats appeal to women a lot. I think in terms of where these fit in a home. The 1:3 format works great vertically or horizontally, and I am selling more of them than anything else (in a very tough low income market). For instance, I am selling 4x12s in a barnwood frame for $25. I have about $6 wrapped up in them. I hear two things. First, that will go in places no other print of any sort will go, and second, there are plenty of decorating
situations where you choose this format because it fits best, like over a fireplace.
I have taken this to such a degree now that my compositions include pre-visualization of these radical formats. I find some pictures I would have rejected in the past fit perfectly as 4x12s, or 12x4's. I can't keep these in stock. Another thing, I am doing creative groupings of these formats in sets. As an example, a 12x36 atop two 12x18s, or a 4x12 atop a 12x18. This really works. I am not kidding, the economy is going to hell and I can't keep up with demand for framed prints to low income people. Often these are bought by the merchants who I sell through on consignment for their homes. These are all cropped and/or rezzed photos, not conventional panos.
Another point on this framing and selling business. We have many choices to make about who we imagine our target markets to be. It flatters my ego to imagine I might sell into the big money niche, and I imagine many here actually do. Realistically, that is not in play for me.
I have learned a couple of things from "competing" locally. First, selling my prints framed wipes away one resistance because they are "ready to hang", a big deal. My competition is selling bagged prints, and frankly I am kicking their tails. Second, I am not too concerned about very top quality framing. I have asked people how long they imagine they might keep one of my prints. The replacement cycle is a few years. That means getting crazy over archival measures is kind of pointless. I think my prints will last 30 years, but I think the interest in them will be not nearly so long.
I have learned you can spend about as much as you like on framing and it is pretty easy to wrap up $30+ in the frame for relatively small prints. I am buying 20x30 frames for about $26 delivered price from frameusa.com. Sometimes I buy their closeouts for much less. Barnwood sells best for me, enough so that I don't bother with anything else anymore. I think this might change, but this is my market. Frameusa has a mat company that is cheaper than I can buy the mat board to cut my own.
In a county of 7,000 people, I have framed and sold over 100 prints in the last month. We have some tourism, but my market is mostly locals. I turnover my images fairly fast, so new content is coming along all the time. I think in terms of price points. The $20 odd dollar price point is in the impulse zone. $45 is more of an investment, but considered affordable. $85 is a commitment, and I reserve this for the 20x30's and 12x36's. I make my money in the same order. The most from the smallest sizes, the least from the largest, because of volume sales. 5x7 framed prints are not worth the bother if I value my labor. I do sell pairs (back to back photos, bagged, no backer) of signed original 5x7 prints for $5. It costs me about $.60 for the package. These are my bread and butter at shows -- $4.40 here and there and pretty soon it is real money. At my last show these accounted for 30% of all revenue (at an 80% margin).
That is my business plan. 4 products, 4 different price points, many different images. Volume and value oriented. Works for me.
Last year I tried to sell a wrapped gallery print of one of my best images. It cost me $150 (24x36) and I sold it for $250 (after 6 months). Gratifying for sure, but it doesn't begin to pay the bills. I don't waste my time with that kind of thing anymore, not a market fit for any realistic income. I have tried 24x36 barnwood for $100. I have found over $100 seems like huge money to my customers. I sell 100 4x12s ($20 margin) for every 24x36 ($50 margin). That's $2,000 income vs. $50 income. 24x36 is not worth my time. Special order only, not inventory anymore.
Chris, I'm afraid I've shown up very late to this discussion.
I think you'll find at some point that many images actually look better in 4X5 or 11X14 ratios even if they were captured on a 2X3 format. So don't give up on this immediately.
I agree that you should start cutting your own mats if you're doing this enough that custom mats would inhibit your business growth. I cut my own mats and feel that its pretty simple. Its quick if I've got to do quite a few of a particular size. Usually not so quick if I'm changing sizes on each cut.
I personally have grown to like 10X15 prints from 35mm. I get 4 mats from a sheet of matboard and the boarder thickness is the same as 11X14 in a 16X20, just with the sides reversed.
I agree with what other have generally noted. Forcing nature and landscape compositions into fixed dimensions often has a considerable negative effect on aesthetics. It wasn't but a couple decades ago when photographers did tend to crop to standard sizes. Back in 1990 I found rather limited supplies for framing non-custom sizes and what there was tended to be expensive. For those selling prints at the low art fair end, shrink wrapped and matted, the standard sizes make more sense but not as the work and print price increases. ...David
Part of my visualization process is the aspect of the final presentation. I will then crop 'in-camera' or, barring that, I crop in PhotoShop as needed. If the resulting photo is not a 'standard' aspect ratio, so be it. To me it is about the photograph, and not about the matt or frame size.
Discussion
12 repliesThanks,
Chris
Regards,,,,,David
That said, if you do this enough, I suggest you buy a mid-range mat cutter and cut the mats yourself. Your customers may still need custom framing but that's OK. You can't know what style will fit best with their decor anyway. Someone who's wiling to place a 20x30 piece on their wall will likely not want to cut corners. If it's a nature image it will probably go in a prominent location in their house. It's not like a rock star poster tacked to the wall in a teenager's room.
Guy
If you are trying to make a buck, very different formats appeal to women a lot. I think in terms of where these fit in a home. The 1:3 format works great vertically or horizontally, and I am selling more of them than anything else (in a very tough low income market). For instance, I am selling 4x12s in a barnwood frame for $25. I have about $6 wrapped up in them. I hear two things. First, that will go in places no other print of any sort will go, and second, there are plenty of decorating
situations where you choose this format because it fits best, like over a fireplace.
I have taken this to such a degree now that my compositions include pre-visualization of these radical formats. I find some pictures I would have rejected in the past fit perfectly as 4x12s, or 12x4's. I can't keep these in stock. Another thing, I am doing creative groupings of these formats in sets. As an example, a 12x36 atop two 12x18s, or a 4x12 atop a 12x18. This really works. I am not kidding, the economy is going to hell and I can't keep up with demand for framed prints to low income people. Often these are bought by the merchants who I sell through on consignment for their homes. These are all cropped and/or rezzed photos, not conventional panos.
MD
If you are trying to make a buck, very different formats appeal to women a lot. I think in terms of where these fit in a home. The 1:3 format works great vertically or horizontally, and I am selling more of them than anything else (in a very tough low income market). For instance, I am selling 4x12s in a barnwood frame for $25. I have about $6 wrapped up in them. I hear two things. First, that will go in places no other print of any sort will go, and second, there are plenty of decorating
situations where you choose this format because it fits best, like over a fireplace.
I have taken this to such a degree now that my compositions include pre-visualization of these radical formats. I find some pictures I would have rejected in the past fit perfectly as 4x12s, or 12x4's. I can't keep these in stock. Another thing, I am doing creative groupings of these formats in sets. As an example, a 12x36 atop two 12x18s, or a 4x12 atop a 12x18. This really works. I am not kidding, the economy is going to hell and I can't keep up with demand for framed prints to low income people. Often these are bought by the merchants who I sell through on consignment for their homes. These are all cropped and/or rezzed photos, not conventional panos.
MD
I have learned a couple of things from "competing" locally. First, selling my prints framed wipes away one resistance because they are "ready to hang", a big deal. My competition is selling bagged prints, and frankly I am kicking their tails. Second, I am not too concerned about very top quality framing. I have asked people how long they imagine they might keep one of my prints. The replacement cycle is a few years. That means getting crazy over archival measures is kind of pointless. I think my prints will last 30 years, but I think the interest in them will be not nearly so long.
I have learned you can spend about as much as you like on framing and it is pretty easy to wrap up $30+ in the frame for relatively small prints. I am buying 20x30 frames for about $26 delivered price from frameusa.com. Sometimes I buy their closeouts for much less. Barnwood sells best for me, enough so that I don't bother with anything else anymore. I think this might change, but this is my market. Frameusa has a mat company that is cheaper than I can buy the mat board to cut my own.
In a county of 7,000 people, I have framed and sold over 100 prints in the last month. We have some tourism, but my market is mostly locals. I turnover my images fairly fast, so new content is coming along all the time. I think in terms of price points. The $20 odd dollar price point is in the impulse zone. $45 is more of an investment, but considered affordable. $85 is a commitment, and I reserve this for the 20x30's and 12x36's. I make my money in the same order. The most from the smallest sizes, the least from the largest, because of volume sales. 5x7 framed prints are not worth the bother if I value my labor. I do sell pairs (back to back photos, bagged, no backer) of signed original 5x7 prints for $5. It costs me about $.60 for the package. These are my bread and butter at shows -- $4.40 here and there and pretty soon it is real money. At my last show these accounted for 30% of all revenue (at an 80% margin).
That is my business plan. 4 products, 4 different price points, many different images. Volume and value oriented. Works for me.
Last year I tried to sell a wrapped gallery print of one of my best images. It cost me $150 (24x36) and I sold it for $250 (after 6 months). Gratifying for sure, but it doesn't begin to pay the bills. I don't waste my time with that kind of thing anymore, not a market fit for any realistic income. I have tried 24x36 barnwood for $100. I have found over $100 seems like huge money to my customers. I sell 100 4x12s ($20 margin) for every 24x36 ($50 margin). That's $2,000 income vs. $50 income. 24x36 is not worth my time. Special order only, not inventory anymore.
MD
Chris
I think you'll find at some point that many images actually look better in 4X5 or 11X14 ratios even if they were captured on a 2X3 format. So don't give up on this immediately.
I agree that you should start cutting your own mats if you're doing this enough that custom mats would inhibit your business growth. I cut my own mats and feel that its pretty simple. Its quick if I've got to do quite a few of a particular size. Usually not so quick if I'm changing sizes on each cut.
And then some standard size groupings.
Photo Frame
10X15 16X20
12X18 18X24
16X24 22X28
20X30 24X36
I personally have grown to like 10X15 prints from 35mm. I get 4 mats from a sheet of matboard and the boarder thickness is the same as 11X14 in a 16X20, just with the sides reversed.
-PB