...that's how I'd sum up how UKNP used to be. I'm far from being anywhere near the best of the bunch here on UKNP, but what I used to love about this forum was that there was always a lot of constructive criticism of virtually all shots posted. Very few posted images drew no 'criticism'.
However, I have noticed over the last X many months that the majority of comments on most shots (even those shots that are clearly less than perfect) are of the "Great shot!" or otherwise simply complimentary type. There seems to be a lot less proper criticism of shots on UKNP these days, and I think it's to the detriment of the site. I used to post photos on a variety of sites, but I always considered UKNP to be the true 'yardstick' - because if it attracted good comments on UKNP then it REALLY was a good shot. However, I'm not sure that's the case any more. Yes, there are still critical comments, but they seem a lot 'rarer' these days.
Am I imagining this, or was the UKNP of, say 2 years ago, a bit more 'truthful'?
I'm not trying to stir up trouble - I'm genuinely interested to know if this is something that has happened, or whether it's my imagination!!!
And all the above aside, I still feel that the general level of photography posted on UKNP is much higher than 99% of other sites.
I could not agree more and am very glad you posted this.
UKNP was designed primarily as a critique forum, not simply a show and tell.
The issue recently has been a much greater ( per unit time) influx of new members and with such an increase comes more shots therefore more time needed to assess each.
I am currently as guilty of the 'hit and run' as the next i.e. posting an image looking for feedback but not returning that feedback in abundance.
Us 'Mods' like to see a topic to reply ratio that exceeds 1:4 (i.e. for every topic you post you provide at least 4 feedbacks to others) but this is not a hard and fast rule simply because peoples lives and commitments vary over time - but it should at least be an average.
But back to the topic at hand I would very much like to see the forum wander back to the more constructive criticism that it was founded upon and by above accounts earned its strips doing. We all would gain a lot more than a simple pat on the back, but that said I do feel the topic poster could also add some more addition info about how/why the shot was taken other than just the exif data and possible some of the natural history (other than sensitive locations) as well.
PS please feel free to name the other 1% so I can assess a strategy as to how we beat it
PPS NIck and I () will be discussing this and other UKNP issues next week then subsequently passing them by Phil for his take, I will add this to the agenda.
I think MS has raised a very good point .I personally don't comment on all pictures because I am still on dial up and just haven't the time to sit there all day going through everything. Its a shame because I obviously miss some great stuff and may happen to post a comment on a "not so special" picture. Trouble is, there are time when you just like a shot and thats all you want to say but it sounds like a buddy comment. (Some of the comments on other forums ( fori ? ) have really made me want to go outside and be ill., but the trouble is that a lot of people need that bit of re assurance especially if they are new to the game and I feel it helps if we give it.
Can I be really honest here. !
Don't most of us know when our pictures are reasonable ?
And don't we want a few "nice one Charlie " comments ?
JohnR
Posted by eric weight on June 11, 2008 at 12:34 AM
I am glad that this has been mentioned as I believe it to be very true. I also understand that I am as guilty of it as anybody. I am not sure how you would 'police' it though Tom other than by requesting more objectivity as and when it is required. Nobody wants to put a picture up and be told that it is rubbish, but equally there is no point in putting one up and being told that it is superb when it isn't. A thorny problem and I for one will make a special effort to be more constructive. Personally the biggest problem I have is telling somebody who is clearly a better photographer than I am that I think he has got it wrong. What a difficult line this one is to tread. Eric
We debated this about a year ago and I was in the minority then when I expressed a view that 10x "great shot" comments was pointless whithout any critical feedback.
The appreciation is severely devalued by using it liberally without good cause
It is difficult, there are many fine photographers out there and the new inexerienced members do need encouraging, but there again mediocre shots need critical analysis and not applause.
Personally I would like to see the forum develop with more member involvement in actually using their cameras by regional meet-ups or similar rather than the site being a talking shop or at worst a 'naval gazing' site
PS please feel free to name the other 1% so I can assess a strategy as to how we beat it
I think you will have a hard time finding that 1%, as all forii suffer from the same problem. As they become more popular, the thing that got them that popularity gets watered down to a considerable extent.
UKNP is suffering the same thing, however, it is nowhere near as bad as some other places!
Encouragement is the only way to deal with the problem, but I'm afraid you will find it very much a case of taking a horse to water.
Its a valuable point Michael, and its always positive to take a 'step back' at regular intervals, and evaluate the direction the forum is heading.
I also think it is valuable to take a regular 'step back' and remember that wildlife photography is not the easiest photographic subject to be involved with, and a % of the final result will always be determined by the subject, and not the photographer.
Striking a balance between being critical and complimentory is always going to be a difficult one for me, as i tend not base my view entirely on the face value of the posted image, but on what i imagine was involved in gaining the shot.
Personally, if i like an image................then i like it {end of story}. It doesn't have to be technically 'perfect', and i feel it can sometimes be detrimental to over-analyze from the face-value of a posted image.
Although wildlife photography can sometimes 'appear' to come easily to some people, i find it to be an extremely complex subject personally, and often 'just getting the shot' can be an achievement in itself, and if its half-decent, so much the better.
There is also a distinction to be drawn between those of us who shoot purely for ourselves, and those who earn income from this subject, and various aspects will obviously differ, due to the intended use {composition being just one}.
There is also the fact that some of us have a main interest in a particular branch of nature photography, and commenting on less familiar subjects can be tricky to do in a useful way. For me, i try to comment on all subject areas {given the time}, but my comments usually 'have to be' based purely on whether i like it, and not on other aspects. I guess i could refrain from commenting all together, on these areas, but being part of the community, i feel it 'may' give a 'Joe Public' view, and therefore maybe some value to some.
I could go on, but i shall leave some space for others to comment
I'm a relative newcomer to UKNP and value it highly both on the quality of images posted but also on the volume and quality of comments received. Obviously I am unaware of how the level of constructive criticism has changed over time but it's fair to say that deficiencies in an image do usually seem to be pointed out (not necessarily by all posters, but everyone appreciates a few 'nice image' type posts as well ).
It is a difficult balance to get right and it's interesting to read other members' views on this issue.
You cannot 'police' or direct it, it will be what the mass want.
The Mods will try and direct the forum and let it bounce around with the confines of the guidelines but that said we accept it will be what the majority want it to be. On comments and critique we have little influence other than what we write.
Taking and agreeing with John's point about time and 'buddy' comments (nice way of putting it), I would totally agree with Mike in that
Personally I would like to see the forum develop with more member involvement in actually using their cameras by regional meet-ups or similar rather than the site being a talking shop or at worst a 'naval gazing' site
and we try and incorporate these - and will try harder but it needs people to participate - it has benefits.
On benefits, there is so much more benefit to be had from 5 replys of critique than 25 replys of 'whow' for in the former case we move forward, in the latter we remain still.
Yes, I agree, that we want to show our best work and the 'whow' may be appropiate from those who aspire to obtain that standard, but we all have equals (for there is no one person that stands head and shoulders above another here) and owe it to our equals to provide constructive criticism for them to move forward as this is this forums purpose; but even more so if we want to engender a community that lets us move forward ourselves from others critique. Those that reap the whows and do not sow constructive critique are noticed.
As an aside and to reply to Eric...
Any moderator of any internet forum should be able to tell you that their role as a 'policeman' should really be invisable 99% of the time, for my powers of interaction are simply one of request, explaination (both of which you lot have as well) and finally, if required, deletion. In this forum deletion does not happen very often and is only required when somebody has written somthing contentious that they cannot substantiate hence it is potentially libalious. Other than that we shut threads that have drifted off the point. That said it does take a lot of my time in the evenings to just 'direct' this weeks errant and the normal questions The biggest problem is usually when people approach this forum with a 'what can I get from it' rather than a 'how do I participate' point of view.
I love natural history photography and I am truly in 'awe' of many if not most of the photographs posted on here.
I rarely get the time to shoot NH subjects these days which I deeply regret but that's life. It doesn't stop me looking at these great pics though.
However (there always has to be one), I do personally feel it is 'wrong' (can't think of another suitable word) of me to make any kind of criticism of a posted image when I post so few myself. I know I have some credentials about what makes a good picture (to my taste and judgement I mean which is all any of us can do) if only based on how long I've lived on this planet and how long I've been taking pics, but I don't feel that it gives me the right to start making suggestions to other photographers when I don't raise my own photographic head above the parapet as it were.
Bit of a dilemma I find myself in which is why I don't often comment at all on photographs and if I do, it's rarely to say 'this could be better if....'
I do agree with what Michael says though. I remember raising this before many moons ago (I am sure someone could dig up the thread) and I was suggesting at that time that perhaps the UKNP forum should go the same way as the main forum where you can choose when uploading whether you are uploading for critique or not
A suggestion: Perhaps when someone posts a picture they could ask for comments on a specific area that they've been concerned about themselves or for a general critique if that's what they're after. If they wish to post a picture because of 'natural history interest' or because they've just achieved a first image of a certain sort and want to celebrate the achievement, they could state their reasons for posting. In other words, why not ask that everyone states the reason for the posting and that people should look for this info before replying. Matching the response to the wish of the poster should meet more needs.
Some very good responses to this - I'm glad I raised the topic now (I was considering not doing so in case I got a bit of flak, and in case I was imagining things!).
"Great shot!" type comments are, of course, a bit of a morale booster - but it's kind of short term. I don't post as much as I should (either photos or comments), but I do like to pop in and browse often. However, when I have posted what I consider to be good shots, in the long term it has been great when I have received criticism. Obviously at the time it can be a bit disheartening when you see all the flaws in your good efforts pointed out. But it's the honest feedback on UKNP that I used to value so much, and which I can honestly say improved my own level of photography.
Occasionally, due to the quality of the photographers posting on here, there are stunningly good shots, and all they require (IMHO!) is the praise they deserve. However, such shots only appear occasionally!
I appreciate it's difficult to 'police', and, ultimately, people need to have the freedom to post what they want (as long as it doesn't break house rules). But it would be a shame for UKNP to lose what, for me, was one of it's greatest 'assets'.
A valid point and one that should be raised on a regular basis, I have discussed this on other forums and have asked the mods to write 'The art of critique' so people dont just say 'great shot' when it obviously isnt, There isnt a perfect image although some are close, There will always be something good to say about the image but then there will always be some way of improving an image, I think we tend so say the good bit but dont tend to say how it can be improved, You can tend to tell if your image is a bad one by lack of comments rather than bad comments on it
This is still 'THE' forum for quality images and good critique
NB: NPN has always had a document called the The art of image critique and it is is availiable here. --- The Mods
Correct me if I’m wrong but NPN has some wonderful critique galleries and discussion forums. As far as I’m aware the UKNP is a discussion forum apposed to a critique gallery! Now, before anyone lynches me, yes I can and do appreciate why we all like to post our images on the UKNP and I for one think that’s great! With that aside I’d like to point out a few things;
1. When a photographer posts an image in my opinion is for one of two reasons;
a. For a general discussion or to share or highlight an issue
b. For comments and critiques (C&C)
2. Let’s take the latter first; there are a great many photographers posting regularly on this forum whose work is simply outstanding. What else can you say other than its brilliant? On the other hand no image on this forum is so truly bad (other than my own of course) that it needs to be torn apart by nit pickers! I have received many comments highlighting problems with my images and advice on how to put it right! You would probably be surprised on just how many members email each other letting them know in private what is wrong with an image and in some cases emailing them a re-worked image explaining how they got that result. I have improved tenfold since I begun being an active member on this site and forum. That’s months not years!!!
Also bear in mind that some images on this site are good middle of the road images where they are neither bad nor brilliant. How can you critique those images?
Also I believe the C&C means that if you don’t wish to critique someone’s image than you can comment on it instead! If you need specific feedback then ask for it!
So honest critique does happen even in this modern day UKNP!
3. Please don’t take this the wrong way but you have said about being honest here! Since your membership has spanned over fours years now going on five, how much effort have you personally put in to C&C with other members on this forum? I think it’s great to highlight problems and try to improve what is working, but not from the sidelines!
4. Also you do have to bear in mind members own level of expertise. Some are superb professionals while others are just starting out with everyone else in between. So critiquing image is more difficult for some than others for many different reasons!
5. If an image does need critique then be nice! I try to say it nicely! If someone is just getting hammered with harsh critique every post then they may leave, not everyone is think skinned!
I’ll leave it at that for now!
Posted by Dawn Monrose on June 11, 2008 at 5:11 AM
This is a very interesting topic! I haven't been around here for that long, so I can't really say anything about how it used to be. I personally find the comments on here a good mix of 'nice one' type comments, and contrustive criticism. Yes, the criticism is more beneficial, but sometimes I find a shot that just makes me go 'wow' and I can't find anything wrong with it! But I suppose it is all down to personal opinion. I do think that everyone, when giving criticism, is careful to put it in a nice way, which I for one really appreciate, but perhaps people were a bit more blunt about it in the past.
I also think this forum is brilliant, everyone constantly raises the bar, and it's really made me look at my own work, and think about 'how can I reach that standard'. So it's not just people commenting on my work that I find useful, it's also just being around here and looking at everyones work!
I have to admit that I do find it a little uncomfortable to comment on a top professionals work and be critical, but thats purely psychological, as I feel such a newbie. But I do find it easier the more I comment.
I also think that just raising this topic, and getting people to comment, and read the comments is a good way of getting it to everyones attention, and perhaps thinking more about how and what they say when commenting.
Bonjour
I agreed totaly with what Mr Inglis just said.
Also, As we are stating a few home truth. I personnaly never comment on severall "Prima donna" who only post and NEVER comment on any picture.I do not understand why those people should have the attention that they are getting! I do also feel that they are some people who only comment on their friends picture, and I find that very sad. The fact that UKNP have so many lurker is also sad and I think that something should also be done about it. I do know people who only come on this site just to take information and never input any information.there is even a chap who made a comment on one of my picture with only a smily face! What about that for a comment!!
what Ms Monrose said it is also true "we just all want to be friends" and critric is not a very good way to go about it !
Bonne journee et Best wishes everyone.
Frederic
Posted by Adrian North on June 11, 2008 at 6:07 AM
Hi,
Thanks for raising what I consider an important question. I have grown photographically due to the criticisms and points raised on the images I have posted here and have tried to raise points on the images of others. I agree that such points must be honest but also poilte - I have had comments on other forums that were not - which is usually the case here.
Unfortunately recently time constratints have limited my photo opportunities as well as limited the time I have to make comments (I am not a good writer so making a comment that is at least semi-intelligible is a long process for me ) - I have therefore rather fallen into the trap of only commenting on images I like with a "nice one" or other quick reply. Your topic has, however, made me realise that I need to take more time to comment on other images. For that I apologise.
To those who say that they feel unqualified to make comments on peoples images - so do I but remember that these comments are based on your response to the image and are as valid as anyone elses' They are based on your opinion and emotional response as much as anything else (apart from the obvious technical issues) - if you see an image of water that is all milky and you prefer to see water frozen and sharp then please say so - I for one would welcome such comments - it might lead me into a new way of thinking about my image making and that is always welcome
Absolutely. Being able to objectively criticise another's work is beneficial not just to the person who posted the photograph, but to the critic's own photography too as it forces you to think more carefully about all the components that make for a good/fair/poor picture. Everyone's a critic so they say, and that should apply in this forum too.
One of the things I forgot to mention in my earlier response to the original post.
How often is the difficulty of the subject taken into account.? Are we looking at the pictures from a photographic point of view , or a natural history one ? I am not sure it is easy to always combine the two. A rare or pretty subject always gets looked at, and yet it could be the easiest thing to take pictures of in the world.!!
Just thoughts.
Jojn R
Posted by Andy Astbury on June 11, 2008 at 8:59 AM
A very interesting, and personally very apt topic raised here.
Personally apt because a few weeks ago I decided to 'hang back' on the critique of images - as far as I am aware I do have a pretty high ratio on this forum, and to be honest I'm suddenly very wary of being seen as always nit-picking.
You do have to bare in mind that this is a public forum, not a private one, anybody on the planet can see what goes on, what is said by way of comment or critique, who's said it etc - and if you constantly point out the negatives in folks image posts, even though 100% justifiable, then our global audience might well begin to think of you as a bit of a "hard a**" who always finds the bad in folks images - this one step away from from being seen as full of self-importance, which I think anyone who knows me would say I'm not - but nonetheless that's why I've had a fit of the "self-consciences"
But there's a big negative side to adopting this attitude, and I think this is the very valid point that MS has raised - I myself appear to have become guilty of 'glad-handing' on this forum in the last few weeks.
Not that my comments have been unwarranted though - imho
I joined this forum to learn, and when I joined that's the impression I got from almost every other member.
But as time has progressed I get the feeling that some folk have joined to use the forum as a bit of a show-case - nothing wrong in that per-see - as long as they maintain the spirit of the forum and realise that it's a two-way street on here - if you post to showcase then you are hoping for and expecting positive feedback - try giving some in return, positive or constructive, either will do
Nothing annoys me more on this forum than people who post images and never post replies - do you guys not bloomin' realise that a lot of forum members look up to you and the standard of your work, and that your lack of forum participation looks a bit "ivory tower". If you are a commercially successful nature photographer then your positive comments would mean the world to an awful lot of the forum members; and your constructive critiques would carry just as much weight.
And to use the excuse of not having time is a laugh - after all, you had time to post your own image.
Mods are an exception to this though as they must always be seen as impartial and unbiased Phew! - The Mods
Anyway, I appear to have wandered slightly - or have I - it's a topic with quite a broad spectrum of application ie: the good of the forum and its constructive usefulness to its members, and must be of great interest to the mods as the forum is their 'baby'.
So, is "glad handing" a bad thing - NO of course it's not - if you think an image is superb and flawless then say so; and when I'm on the receiving end my ego just loves you all!
Having said that it can get a bit silly at times - one image springs to my mind from a few week ago that had a magenta cast all over it, but because of the posters name the image received plaudits by the skip-load.....sometimes I give up, I really do!
Mr.Inglis does raise a really good point in that a certain number of members might not consider themselves "suitably qualified" to crit an image, that must be so true, more so than a lot of folk would think judging by the email, telephone and face to face conversations I've had with forum members.
But to those folk who do feel like that I would say this - Adam said it above, if you see a fault then say so, as it does truly make you aware of those same faults in your own work; it's obviously happened to Adam, it happened to me, and it will happen to you too.
In a nutshell, everyone who is able to post on this forum should do so - if you like it say so; if you don't then say so too - no one will think any the less of you; that's something reserved for those who post and NEVER comment.
An interesting thread, and a topic well worth debating once in a while. I have to agree with the original post. I was a bit surprised, after a gap of 18 months plus away from the forum, how it seemed to have 'gone a bit soft'.
Personally, I have benefitted from constructive criticism from this forum, especially in the area of post processing (as a relative newcomer to digital). I never try to comment on every topic - there's not enough time. Although not a hard and fast rule (I am also guilty of the odd 'very nice' or 'fantastic' comment), I tend to only post in two situations - 1, when I feel I have some constructive criticism or advice, or extra information to give and 2. when I really like the image a lot (this tends to be a more personal thing - I comment on far fewer bird pics than macro ones for example). In the case of the latter, i also try to say why I like the image - 'constructive compliments', which have more value than a flat compliment.
Having now read most of the above, my feelings are that as regards critque,I normally only respond if the image really makes me want to say some thing about it.Now some may see this as incorrect,but I feel that if an image dose not "do it for me" then there's not a lot of point in commenting on it,an example would be landscapes, as I don't have any great interest in them,and as such do not feel in any way qualified to comment on them.Now this way of doing things will give results,and like a lot of people to day I don't have time to comment on all the pictures on UKNP. I hope this dose not sound out of place as its not supposed to be,but that's just the way I look at things.............
Stewart..................... Its still the best site on the web for me.......
This thread is a fine example of why the forum is of such a high quality. I can well believe that Michael was hesitant to post it, but look at the response. Reasoned debate and worthwhile points all the way from top to bottom.
I started using this site after a plea from the mods for more of the lurkers to come forward and participate and I did so with great trepidation knowing that my images were not in the same league as many of those already appearing. It was the best thing that has ever happened to my wildlife photography which is easily 100% better than it was after just a few months.
So speaking as a relative newcomer I ask for a little slack when it comes to commenting on the work of others. Andy has spoken of an image with a heavy colour cast that was never mentioned. Well I have sat next to him while we discussed it and I suggest it is easy for the experienced to forget how long it took them to get to grips with colour and this is just the sort of occasion when the beginner looks to the more experienced to shine a light on these things. The same goes for post processing. A few home truths from those who know what they are talking about can make a huge improvement in the images that people like myself can come up with. There is little point in me telling Andy where his processing is going wrong because he knows what he is doing and I don't (yet). What I can do is say whether I like an image or not and why, but it is worth remembering that when you are starting out, nearly every image you see looks superb compared to your own.
Don't hang back on my images Andy - Rip them to shreds when you can and when you can't I will be a happy man. Eric
"You would probably be surprised on just how many members email each other letting them know in private what is wrong with an image and in some cases emailing them a re-worked image explaining how they got that result. I have improved tenfold since I begun being an active member on this site and forum."
That's all well and good, but how does it benefit the wider UKNP community? Improving tenfold is great - I have also improved as a result of public discussion on UKNP - but have you improved tenfold only as a result of "private" suggestions? Why aren't these suggestions made 'in public' in the forum, so that we can ALL improve? It's not just criticism of my own photos that have helped me improve - it's reading the constructive criticism of everyone's shots that helps me - and everyone else - improve.
Making comments privately to each other is fine to a degree - but that takes something away from the forum doesn't it?
Paul also queried:
"Please don’t take this the wrong way but... Since your membership has spanned over fours years now going on five, how much effort have you personally put in to C&C with other members on this forum? I think it’s great to highlight problems and try to improve what is working, but not from the sidelines!"
I'm honestly not sure what that means, so I don't know whether to take it the wrong way or not!! How much 'effort' have I put in? Well, on current stats I've started 33 topics (including this one) and made 549 posts (including this one). I'd love to post more, but time constraints mean I can't. I also believe that my 'activity stats' were reset a couple of years ago (along with most other members) when there was a server change (or something like that), so they used to be much higher. Agreed - The Mods Anyway, based on the current stats, as I know for a fact that I've started other threads that are 'text based' (rather than me posting a photo), lets say that's 540+ posts for approx 27 photos posted. That's not a bad ratio, IMO - not brilliant, and not as good as many, but not bad. I'm certainly not a "post my own photo but never make comments" member. And I would estimate (without checking my actual posting history) that the majority of my comments would include some kind of constructive criticism. I have posted "Great shot" type comments, but only when I really feel the shot deserves it, and where I can see no obvious means of improvement.
But when I do offer some C&C I'll do it here in the forum, because doing it in private seems to defeat the object of us all being here!!
However, this thread wasn't started as a means of folk justifying their own personal activity!! I don't want any finger-pointing at anyone - merely wanted to have the debate!
When I first came across UKNP/NPN about 3 years ago I thought that a lot of the "critique" was no more that petty nit-picking for nit-picking's sake, and seriously wondered if it was driven by jealousy. I actually got so fed up of it that I stopped looking here for over six months. In that time something seemed to happen here which made the place a lot saner and more conducive to newbies like myself actually joining in. I'd hate to see the forum back-slide to those petty old ways. If it does, I definitely won't remain a part of it! The fact is that if you look closely enough you can find flaws or faults in just about everything - even the Mona Lisa.
There have been a number of other good points raised. John raised the point about consideration being given to the difficulty in photographing the species. Whilst photo editors and Joe Public couldn't care about such things I would expect that any wildlife photographer would but sadly see little evidence of it.
Frederic has mentioned the Prima Donnas as has Andy albeit wording it differently Sadly I get the impression that there's a tiny clique who can post anything and lots of people will feel obliged to heap praise on their images purple cast or no purple cast. I remember that image and instantly saw the colour cast but didn't dare say anything for fear of being rounded upon by the "disciples". In that particular case I feel that the points that Michael has raised are fully justified.
Finally i agree with Mike's point about getting out together and photographing wildlife. I've attended 4 field trips so far and each one has been both enjoyable and instructive.
Finishing with a much over-used
Paul
Posted by Elliott Neep on June 12, 2008 at 1:22 AM
This is a great thread and it is nice to see there is a common want for good quality C&C. Like Paul, I first looked at UKNP several years ago (2002/03) and, even though I was a relative newbie, I found the level of nit picking to be alarmingly high. Comments like “should add +25 saturation”, “crop this”, or “clone that” were bounded about when it was completely unjustified. I left the forum rather bemused and wondered if all wildlife photographers were so anal!?
I then met Tom Wylie in Formby. I didn’t know who he was at the time. He asked whether I had heard of UKNP and I said “yep, it sucks donkey balls!” Little did I know that he was a moderator! But he said things had changed, so I gave it another go. Things certainly had changed. It was as if the Commons Whip had been round and lashed everyone into shape. The comments were constructive and far from nit picking, so I happily rejoined the community.
I think it is fair to say there is still small degree ‘critique for critique sake’, which is just as bad as glad-handing, in my opinion. But overall, I find the feedback on my and (rather very importantly) other images very constructive. Over the past couple of years, I have noticed a certain degree glad-handing where I personally didn’t feel wasn’t warranted. But, on reflection, it was unclear whether people were rewarding just the image or the effort? That could be a whole other debate – whether to reward effort for an elusive subject compared to an everyday blue tit (just an example – don’t rip me).
I feel there could be several reasons. One already mentioned is the newcomer/lurker who feels they are perhaps unqualified to comment. To you, I say “Throw off your inhibitions and let us know your thoughts – nobody here will think any less of you”. In fact, if your opinion is challenged and/or corrected you will learn something.
The second reason that needs to be considered is the overall quality of images which, since I first looked several years ago, has vastly improved – the macro images are a great example. There are very few ‘dodgy shots’ to really get your teeth into, so people are left with the choice of appearing to be a glad-hander or nit-picker. Which group would you rather be in when you may just want to make friends or contacts?
Another reason (and I know I am guilt of this one) could be a specialisation in subject. I know I comment far more on mammal and technical posts than I do on birds and landscapes, for example. I feel I am much more qualified to comment on these areas and the bird posts always seem to get a massive look-in anyway - and why not!? They are probably the most easily accessible subject to start with in any case.
I have been a full-time wildlife pro since about 2005, but I am always learning and UKNP is a great resource. I know I could probably contribute more, but I feel I have done a fair share. It does take time to really look at an image, assess it, understand the aim and objective, and recommend ways of improving it. The most time is taken by creating a carefully worded critique that does not offend! If you have met me in real life, you’ll vouch that I am not so diplomatic in person! From my own point of view, I feel there are enough ‘glad-handers’ so I try to C&C properly with a ‘quality not quantity’ approach. I hope this explains at least one point of view.
I really appreciate the responses here - whichever side of the fence they are on, or if they are actually on the fence itself!
I have personally found it very interesting to read a great many considered points on all sides, some of which have made me consider something which had previously escaped me! So thank you one and all for your honesty!
I have a couple of points I would like to pick up on just to tidy (or open) them up and hopefully this will not be the last post in the thread.
1) This forum was born primarily as a critique forum for nature photography images taken within the UK/Europe simply because each region has its own specific issues that need to be overcome and understood to provide reasonable images/critique, e.g. the UK's weather. It has spun out a bit to moderate discussion but that should be seen as secondary.
2) Nit-Picking: I would ask people to remember what you see as a nit-pick depends upon your level of photography. If you see an image whose quality you aspire to you will be less likely to pick nits with it, but those capable of that image quality may see the issues within it and these, albeit small, nits could lose a competition or subsequent sale - they are worth pointing out and I hope you would point them out.
3) Cliques: Human nature creates cliques. Does this forum have them - yes. Are they detrimental to the forum - mostly no, but I would caution against limiting your own network by being associated with one. Are they obvious - yes. If you treat everybody near equal you will get a better network for opportunities but, seriously, what-you-get-out lags what-you-put-in.
4)'Glad handling' Believe it or not, although used frequently above, I had to look up what this expression means. Up North we have a simpler expression - an A** Licker. Try not to do this. The premise for this ingratiating behaviour (for example and being facetious... "That's sooooooooo wonderful, I'd love the opportunity. ") ... is that you will get something back in return, you will... all us laughing at you and that's about it. If you want to do this then do it via PM. It's your image critique this forum is interested in, not your idolism.
5) Professionals: The forum is indifferent to people who earn there living from photography and it has always been so. This forum will point out the flaws in their images as honestly as anybody else's and this is the reason many pro's simply lurk as their ego cannot accept the criticism. In this forum it is the image, not the person, that counts. To morph a well known saying "professional is as professional shows".
6) Hidden or infra-digs. We know when you write something seamingly innocuous and it really isn't and it's normally in a reply to a particular person that you aren't getting along with. 'The Mods' (at the very least) can see comments for what they are. How? Because we get told about everything politically going on; everything - believe me we do! With this forum as a network how can we avoid it?
Finally this forum has thrived in recent years because it's inhabitants are honest, civil, contemplative, thoughtful and friendly; kudos to you all.
Some interesting comments from all - thanks to everyone who's contributed. Tom's covered most of the things we look at as moderators.
From a 'newbie' to a seasoned pro, everyone's comments are valuable on an image as everyone has different viewpoints and tastes. Yep, some of it can seem like 'nit picking' to some people, but so long as it helps people to grow their photography and isn't maliciously or destructively intended, then I've no problems.
In all, the community here is consistently one of the best I've found on my travels on the web - both for comments/critiques and for the general 'ambience' . Doesn't mean we don't still have room to improve though, and topics like this remind us that we are meant to be a critique forum, and not a back-slapping forum .
Discussion
29 repliesHowever, I have noticed over the last X many months that the majority of comments on most shots (even those shots that are clearly less than perfect) are of the "Great shot!" or otherwise simply complimentary type. There seems to be a lot less proper criticism of shots on UKNP these days, and I think it's to the detriment of the site. I used to post photos on a variety of sites, but I always considered UKNP to be the true 'yardstick' - because if it attracted good comments on UKNP then it REALLY was a good shot. However, I'm not sure that's the case any more. Yes, there are still critical comments, but they seem a lot 'rarer' these days.
Am I imagining this, or was the UKNP of, say 2 years ago, a bit more 'truthful'?
I'm not trying to stir up trouble - I'm genuinely interested to know if this is something that has happened, or whether it's my imagination!!!
And all the above aside, I still feel that the general level of photography posted on UKNP is much higher than 99% of other sites.
UKNP was designed primarily as a critique forum, not simply a show and tell.
The issue recently has been a much greater ( per unit time) influx of new members and with such an increase comes more shots therefore more time needed to assess each.
I am currently as guilty of the 'hit and run' as the next i.e. posting an image looking for feedback but not returning that feedback in abundance.
Us 'Mods' like to see a topic to reply ratio that exceeds 1:4 (i.e. for every topic you post you provide at least 4 feedbacks to others) but this is not a hard and fast rule simply because peoples lives and commitments vary over time - but it should at least be an average.
But back to the topic at hand I would very much like to see the forum wander back to the more constructive criticism that it was founded upon and by above accounts earned its strips doing. We all would gain a lot more than a simple pat on the back, but that said I do feel the topic poster could also add some more addition info about how/why the shot was taken other than just the exif data and possible some of the natural history (other than sensitive locations) as well.
PS please feel free to name the other 1% so I can assess a strategy as to how we beat it
PPS NIck and I () will be discussing this and other UKNP issues next week then subsequently passing them by Phil for his take, I will add this to the agenda.
T
Can I be really honest here. !
Don't most of us know when our pictures are reasonable ?
And don't we want a few "nice one Charlie " comments ?
JohnR
The
It is difficult, there are many fine photographers out there and the new inexerienced members do need encouraging, but there again mediocre shots need critical analysis and not applause.
Personally I would like to see the forum develop with more member involvement in actually using their cameras by regional meet-ups or similar rather than the site being a talking shop or at worst a 'naval gazing' site
I think you will have a hard time finding that 1%, as all forii suffer from the same problem. As they become more popular, the thing that got them that popularity gets watered down to a considerable extent.
UKNP is suffering the same thing, however, it is nowhere near as bad as some other places!
Encouragement is the only way to deal with the problem, but I'm afraid you will find it very much a case of taking a horse to water.
Ian
I also think it is valuable to take a regular 'step back' and remember that wildlife photography is not the easiest photographic subject to be involved with, and a % of the final result will always be determined by the subject, and not the photographer.
Striking a balance between being critical and complimentory is always going to be a difficult one for me, as i tend not base my view entirely on the face value of the posted image, but on what i imagine was involved in gaining the shot.
Personally, if i like an image................then i like it {end of story}. It doesn't have to be technically 'perfect', and i feel it can sometimes be detrimental to over-analyze from the face-value of a posted image.
Although wildlife photography can sometimes 'appear' to come easily to some people, i find it to be an extremely complex subject personally, and often 'just getting the shot' can be an achievement in itself, and if its half-decent, so much the better.
There is also a distinction to be drawn between those of us who shoot purely for ourselves, and those who earn income from this subject, and various aspects will obviously differ, due to the intended use {composition being just one}.
There is also the fact that some of us have a main interest in a particular branch of nature photography, and commenting on less familiar subjects can be tricky to do in a useful way. For me, i try to comment on all subject areas {given the time}, but my comments usually 'have to be' based purely on whether i like it, and not on other aspects. I guess i could refrain from commenting all together, on these areas, but being part of the community, i feel it 'may' give a 'Joe Public' view, and therefore maybe some value to some.
I could go on, but i shall leave some space for others to comment
Alan
It is a difficult balance to get right and it's interesting to read other members' views on this issue.
Matt
The Mods will try and direct the forum and let it bounce around with the confines of the guidelines but that said we accept it will be what the majority want it to be. On comments and critique we have little influence other than what we write.
Taking and agreeing with John's point about time and 'buddy' comments (nice way of putting it), I would totally agree with Mike in that
and we try and incorporate these - and will try harder but it needs people to participate - it has benefits.
On benefits, there is so much more benefit to be had from 5 replys of critique than 25 replys of 'whow' for in the former case we move forward, in the latter we remain still.
Yes, I agree, that we want to show our best work and the 'whow' may be appropiate from those who aspire to obtain that standard, but we all have equals (for there is no one person that stands head and shoulders above another here) and owe it to our equals to provide constructive criticism for them to move forward as this is this forums purpose; but even more so if we want to engender a community that lets us move forward ourselves from others critique. Those that reap the whows and do not sow constructive critique are noticed.
As an aside and to reply to Eric...
Any moderator of any internet forum should be able to tell you that their role as a 'policeman' should really be invisable 99% of the time, for my powers of interaction are simply one of request, explaination (both of which you lot have as well) and finally, if required, deletion. In this forum deletion does not happen very often and is only required when somebody has written somthing contentious that they cannot substantiate hence it is potentially libalious. Other than that we shut threads that have drifted off the point. That said it does take a lot of my time in the evenings to just 'direct' this weeks errant and the normal questions
T
I rarely get the time to shoot NH subjects these days which I deeply regret but that's life. It doesn't stop me looking at these great pics though.
However (there always has to be one), I do personally feel it is 'wrong' (can't think of another suitable word) of me to make any kind of criticism of a posted image when I post so few myself. I know I have some credentials about what makes a good picture (to my taste and judgement I mean which is all any of us can do) if only based on how long I've lived on this planet and how long I've been taking pics, but I don't feel that it gives me the right to start making suggestions to other photographers when I don't raise my own photographic head above the parapet as it were.
Bit of a dilemma I find myself in which is why I don't often comment at all on photographs and if I do, it's rarely to say 'this could be better if....'
I do agree with what Michael says though. I remember raising this before many moons ago (I am sure someone could dig up the thread) and I was suggesting at that time that perhaps the UKNP forum should go the same way as the main forum where you can choose when uploading whether you are uploading for critique or not
Might be worth revisiting that idea?
Barrie
Tim
"Great shot!" type comments are, of course, a bit of a morale booster - but it's kind of short term. I don't post as much as I should (either photos or comments), but I do like to pop in and browse often. However, when I have posted what I consider to be good shots, in the long term it has been great when I have received criticism. Obviously at the time it can be a bit disheartening when you see all the flaws in your good efforts pointed out. But it's the honest feedback on UKNP that I used to value so much, and which I can honestly say improved my own level of photography.
Occasionally, due to the quality of the photographers posting on here, there are stunningly good shots, and all they require (IMHO!) is the praise they deserve. However, such shots only appear occasionally!
I appreciate it's difficult to 'police', and, ultimately, people need to have the freedom to post what they want (as long as it doesn't break house rules). But it would be a shame for UKNP to lose what, for me, was one of it's greatest 'assets'.
Thanks for all the views so far.
This is still 'THE' forum for quality images and good critique
NB: NPN has always had a document called the The art of image critique and it is is availiable here. --- The Mods
Dave
Correct me if I’m wrong but NPN has some wonderful critique galleries and discussion forums. As far as I’m aware the UKNP is a discussion forum apposed to a critique gallery! Now, before anyone lynches me, yes I can and do appreciate why we all like to post our images on the UKNP and I for one think that’s great! With that aside I’d like to point out a few things;
1. When a photographer posts an image in my opinion is for one of two reasons;
a. For a general discussion or to share or highlight an issue
b. For comments and critiques (C&C)
2. Let’s take the latter first; there are a great many photographers posting regularly on this forum whose work is simply outstanding. What else can you say other than its brilliant? On the other hand no image on this forum is so truly bad (other than my own of course) that it needs to be torn apart by nit pickers! I have received many comments highlighting problems with my images and advice on how to put it right! You would probably be surprised on just how many members email each other letting them know in private what is wrong with an image and in some cases emailing them a re-worked image explaining how they got that result. I have improved tenfold since I begun being an active member on this site and forum. That’s months not years!!!
Also bear in mind that some images on this site are good middle of the road images where they are neither bad nor brilliant. How can you critique those images?
Also I believe the C&C means that if you don’t wish to critique someone’s image than you can comment on it instead! If you need specific feedback then ask for it!
i.e. I posted an image of an Oystercatcher for C&C and I found out through honest critique that my exposure could have been better http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/bbs.cgi?a=vm&mr=28640&CGISESSID=bc49266009430d6f6f3833c7197b41d4&u=2646 and it forced me to think about it which lead to another topic of mine called my Nemesis http://www.naturephotographers.net/imagecritique/bbs.cgi?a=vm&mr=29204&CGISESSID=bc49266009430d6f6f3833c7197b41d4&u=2646 which I have since addressed thanks for the help from those members.
Or how about my Rabbit shot when it was highlighted that it was soft, then another member explained why and I’ve never made the same mistake again (probably will do now
So honest critique does happen even in this modern day UKNP!
3. Please don’t take this the wrong way but you have said about being honest here! Since your membership has spanned over fours years now going on five, how much effort have you personally put in to C&C with other members on this forum? I think it’s great to highlight problems and try to improve what is working, but not from the sidelines!
4. Also you do have to bear in mind members own level of expertise. Some are superb professionals while others are just starting out with everyone else in between. So critiquing image is more difficult for some than others for many different reasons!
5. If an image does need critique then be nice! I try to say it nicely! If someone is just getting hammered with harsh critique every post then they may leave, not everyone is think skinned!
I’ll leave it at that for now!
I also think this forum is brilliant, everyone constantly raises the bar, and it's really made me look at my own work, and think about 'how can I reach that standard'. So it's not just people commenting on my work that I find useful, it's also just being around here and looking at everyones work!
I have to admit that I do find it a little uncomfortable to comment on a top professionals work and be critical, but thats purely psychological, as I feel such a newbie. But I do find it easier the more I comment.
I also think that just raising this topic, and getting people to comment, and read the comments is a good way of getting it to everyones attention, and perhaps thinking more about how and what they say when commenting.
I guess we just all want to be friends!!!
I agreed totaly with what Mr Inglis just said.
Also, As we are stating a few home truth. I personnaly never comment on severall "Prima donna" who only post and NEVER comment on any picture.I do not understand why those people should have the attention that they are getting! I do also feel that they are some people who only comment on their friends picture, and I find that very sad. The fact that UKNP have so many lurker is also sad and I think that something should also be done about it. I do know people who only come on this site just to take information and never input any information.there is even a chap who made a comment on one of my picture with only a smily face! What about that for a comment!!
what Ms Monrose said it is also true "we just all want to be friends" and critric is not a very good way to go about it !
Bonne journee et Best wishes everyone.
Frederic
Thanks for raising what I consider an important question. I have grown photographically due to the criticisms and points raised on the images I have posted here and have tried to raise points on the images of others. I agree that such points must be honest but also poilte - I have had comments on other forums that were not - which is usually the case here.
Unfortunately recently time constratints have limited my photo opportunities as well as limited the time I have to make comments (I am not a good writer so making a comment that is at least semi-intelligible is a long process for me
To those who say that they feel unqualified to make comments on peoples images - so do I but remember that these comments are based on your response to the image and are as valid as anyone elses' They are based on your opinion and emotional response as much as anything else (apart from the obvious technical issues) - if you see an image of water that is all milky and you prefer to see water frozen and sharp then please say so - I for one would welcome such comments - it might lead me into a new way of thinking about my image making and that is always welcome
Adrian
Adam
How often is the difficulty of the subject taken into account.? Are we looking at the pictures from a photographic point of view , or a natural history one ? I am not sure it is easy to always combine the two. A rare or pretty subject always gets looked at, and yet it could be the easiest thing to take pictures of in the world.!!
Just thoughts.
Jojn R
Personally apt because a few weeks ago I decided to 'hang back' on the critique of images - as far as I am aware I do have a pretty high ratio on this forum, and to be honest I'm suddenly very wary of being seen as always nit-picking.
You do have to bare in mind that this is a public forum, not a private one, anybody on the planet can see what goes on, what is said by way of comment or critique, who's said it etc - and if you constantly point out the negatives in folks image posts, even though 100% justifiable, then our global audience might well begin to think of you as a bit of a "hard a**" who always finds the bad in folks images - this one step away from from being seen as full of self-importance, which I think anyone who knows me would say I'm not - but nonetheless that's why I've had a fit of the "self-consciences"
But there's a big negative side to adopting this attitude, and I think this is the very valid point that MS has raised - I myself appear to have become guilty of 'glad-handing' on this forum in the last few weeks.
Not that my comments have been unwarranted though - imho
I joined this forum to learn, and when I joined that's the impression I got from almost every other member.
But as time has progressed I get the feeling that some folk have joined to use the forum as a bit of a show-case - nothing wrong in that per-see - as long as they maintain the spirit of the forum and realise that it's a two-way street on here - if you post to showcase then you are hoping for and expecting positive feedback - try giving some in return, positive or constructive, either will do
Nothing annoys me more on this forum than people who post images and never post replies - do you guys not bloomin' realise that a lot of forum members look up to you and the standard of your work, and that your lack of forum participation looks a bit "ivory tower". If you are a commercially successful nature photographer then your positive comments would mean the world to an awful lot of the forum members; and your constructive critiques would carry just as much weight.
And to use the excuse of not having time is a laugh - after all, you had time to post your own image.
Mods are an exception to this though as they must always be seen as impartial and unbiased
Anyway, I appear to have wandered slightly - or have I - it's a topic with quite a broad spectrum of application ie: the good of the forum and its constructive usefulness to its members, and must be of great interest to the mods as the forum is their 'baby'.
So, is "glad handing" a bad thing - NO of course it's not - if you think an image is superb and flawless then say so; and when I'm on the receiving end my ego just loves you all!
Having said that it can get a bit silly at times - one image springs to my mind from a few week ago that had a magenta cast all over it, but because of the posters name the image received plaudits by the skip-load.....sometimes I give up, I really do!
Mr.Inglis does raise a really good point in that a certain number of members might not consider themselves "suitably qualified" to crit an image, that must be so true, more so than a lot of folk would think judging by the email, telephone and face to face conversations I've had with forum members.
But to those folk who do feel like that I would say this - Adam said it above, if you see a fault then say so, as it does truly make you aware of those same faults in your own work; it's obviously happened to Adam, it happened to me, and it will happen to you too.
In a nutshell, everyone who is able to post on this forum should do so - if you like it say so; if you don't then say so too - no one will think any the less of you; that's something reserved for those who post and NEVER comment.
Personally, I have benefitted from constructive criticism from this forum, especially in the area of post processing (as a relative newcomer to digital). I never try to comment on every topic - there's not enough time. Although not a hard and fast rule (I am also guilty of the odd 'very nice' or 'fantastic' comment), I tend to only post in two situations - 1, when I feel I have some constructive criticism or advice, or extra information to give and 2. when I really like the image a lot (this tends to be a more personal thing - I comment on far fewer bird pics than macro ones for example). In the case of the latter, i also try to say why I like the image - 'constructive compliments', which have more value than a flat compliment.
Greg
Stewart..................... Its still the best site on the web for me.......
I started using this site after a plea from the mods for more of the lurkers to come forward and participate and I did so with great trepidation knowing that my images were not in the same league as many of those already appearing. It was the best thing that has ever happened to my wildlife photography which is easily 100% better than it was after just a few months.
So speaking as a relative newcomer I ask for a little slack when it comes to commenting on the work of others. Andy has spoken of an image with a heavy colour cast that was never mentioned. Well I have sat next to him while we discussed it and I suggest it is easy for the experienced to forget how long it took them to get to grips with colour and this is just the sort of occasion when the beginner looks to the more experienced to shine a light on these things. The same goes for post processing. A few home truths from those who know what they are talking about can make a huge improvement in the images that people like myself can come up with. There is little point in me telling Andy where his processing is going wrong because he knows what he is doing and I don't (yet). What I can do is say whether I like an image or not and why, but it is worth remembering that when you are starting out, nearly every image you see looks superb compared to your own.
Don't hang back on my images Andy - Rip them to shreds when you can and when you can't I will be a happy man.
"You would probably be surprised on just how many members email each other letting them know in private what is wrong with an image and in some cases emailing them a re-worked image explaining how they got that result. I have improved tenfold since I begun being an active member on this site and forum."
That's all well and good, but how does it benefit the wider UKNP community? Improving tenfold is great - I have also improved as a result of public discussion on UKNP - but have you improved tenfold only as a result of "private" suggestions? Why aren't these suggestions made 'in public' in the forum, so that we can ALL improve? It's not just criticism of my own photos that have helped me improve - it's reading the constructive criticism of everyone's shots that helps me - and everyone else - improve.
Making comments privately to each other is fine to a degree - but that takes something away from the forum doesn't it?
Paul also queried:
"Please don’t take this the wrong way but... Since your membership has spanned over fours years now going on five, how much effort have you personally put in to C&C with other members on this forum? I think it’s great to highlight problems and try to improve what is working, but not from the sidelines!"
I'm honestly not sure what that means, so I don't know whether to take it the wrong way or not!!
But when I do offer some C&C I'll do it here in the forum, because doing it in private seems to defeat the object of us all being here!!
However, this thread wasn't started as a means of folk justifying their own personal activity!! I don't want any finger-pointing at anyone - merely wanted to have the debate!
There have been a number of other good points raised. John raised the point about consideration being given to the difficulty in photographing the species. Whilst photo editors and Joe Public couldn't care about such things I would expect that any wildlife photographer would but sadly see little evidence of it.
Frederic has mentioned the Prima Donnas as has Andy albeit wording it differently Sadly I get the impression that there's a tiny clique who can post anything and lots of people will feel obliged to heap praise on their images purple cast or no purple cast. I remember that image and instantly saw the colour cast but didn't dare say anything for fear of being rounded upon by the "disciples". In that particular case I feel that the points that Michael has raised are fully justified.
Finally i agree with Mike's point about getting out together and photographing wildlife. I've attended 4 field trips so far and each one has been both enjoyable and instructive.
Finishing with a much over-used
Paul
I then met Tom Wylie in Formby. I didn’t know who he was at the time. He asked whether I had heard of UKNP and I said “yep, it sucks donkey balls!” Little did I know that he was a moderator! But he said things had changed, so I gave it another go. Things certainly had changed. It was as if the Commons Whip had been round and lashed everyone into shape. The comments were constructive and far from nit picking, so I happily rejoined the community.
I think it is fair to say there is still small degree ‘critique for critique sake’, which is just as bad as glad-handing, in my opinion. But overall, I find the feedback on my and (rather very importantly) other images very constructive. Over the past couple of years, I have noticed a certain degree glad-handing where I personally didn’t feel wasn’t warranted. But, on reflection, it was unclear whether people were rewarding just the image or the effort? That could be a whole other debate – whether to reward effort for an elusive subject compared to an everyday blue tit (just an example – don’t rip me).
I feel there could be several reasons. One already mentioned is the newcomer/lurker who feels they are perhaps unqualified to comment. To you, I say “Throw off your inhibitions and let us know your thoughts – nobody here will think any less of you”. In fact, if your opinion is challenged and/or corrected you will learn something.
The second reason that needs to be considered is the overall quality of images which, since I first looked several years ago, has vastly improved – the macro images are a great example. There are very few ‘dodgy shots’ to really get your teeth into, so people are left with the choice of appearing to be a glad-hander or nit-picker. Which group would you rather be in when you may just want to make friends or contacts?
Another reason (and I know I am guilt of this one) could be a specialisation in subject. I know I comment far more on mammal and technical posts than I do on birds and landscapes, for example. I feel I am much more qualified to comment on these areas and the bird posts always seem to get a massive look-in anyway - and why not!? They are probably the most easily accessible subject to start with in any case.
I have been a full-time wildlife pro since about 2005, but I am always learning and UKNP is a great resource. I know I could probably contribute more, but I feel I have done a fair share. It does take time to really look at an image, assess it, understand the aim and objective, and recommend ways of improving it. The most time is taken by creating a carefully worded critique that does not offend! If you have met me in real life, you’ll vouch that I am not so diplomatic in person! From my own point of view, I feel there are enough ‘glad-handers’ so I try to C&C properly with a ‘quality not quantity’ approach. I hope this explains at least one point of view.
I have personally found it very interesting to read a great many considered points on all sides, some of which have made me consider something which had previously escaped me! So thank you one and all for your honesty!
1) This forum was born primarily as a critique forum for nature photography images taken within the UK/Europe simply because each region has its own specific issues that need to be overcome and understood to provide reasonable images/critique, e.g. the UK's weather. It has spun out a bit to moderate discussion but that should be seen as secondary.
2) Nit-Picking: I would ask people to remember what you see as a nit-pick depends upon your level of photography. If you see an image whose quality you aspire to you will be less likely to pick nits with it, but those capable of that image quality may see the issues within it and these, albeit small, nits could lose a competition or subsequent sale - they are worth pointing out and I hope you would point them out.
3) Cliques: Human nature creates cliques. Does this forum have them - yes. Are they detrimental to the forum - mostly no, but I would caution against limiting your own network by being associated with one. Are they obvious - yes. If you treat everybody near equal you will get a better network for opportunities but, seriously, what-you-get-out lags what-you-put-in.
4)'Glad handling' Believe it or not, although used frequently above, I had to look up what this expression means. Up North we have a simpler expression - an A** Licker. Try not to do this. The premise for this ingratiating behaviour (for example and being facetious... "That's sooooooooo wonderful, I'd love the opportunity.
5) Professionals: The forum is indifferent to people who earn there living from photography and it has always been so. This forum will point out the flaws in their images as honestly as anybody else's and this is the reason many pro's simply lurk as their ego cannot accept the criticism. In this forum it is the image, not the person, that counts. To morph a well known saying "professional is as professional shows".
6) Hidden or infra-digs. We know when you write something seamingly innocuous and it really isn't and it's normally in a reply to a particular person that you aren't getting along with. 'The Mods' (at the very least) can see comments for what they are. How? Because we get told about everything politically going on; everything - believe me we do! With this forum as a network how can we avoid it?
Finally this forum has thrived in recent years because it's inhabitants are honest, civil, contemplative, thoughtful and friendly; kudos to you all.
From a 'newbie' to a seasoned pro, everyone's comments are valuable on an image as everyone has different viewpoints and tastes. Yep, some of it can seem like 'nit picking' to some people, but so long as it helps people to grow their photography and isn't maliciously or destructively intended, then I've no problems.
In all, the community here is consistently one of the best I've found on my travels on the web - both for comments/critiques and for the general 'ambience'